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The influence of the EU on Britain.
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How many more times will you have to make this point (about free trade agreements and WTO requirements)? Why is it that Brexiteers are incapable of understanding such simple facts? I admire your patience and politeness in taking the time to fully state the facts each time.NornIrishAddick said:
You do realise that a unilateral removal of trade barriers would have wiped out UK manufacturing and, probably, agriculture - because, in the absence of a free trade agreement, the UK cannot selectively remove tariff and non-tariff barriers, the WTO requires all countries, without specific trade agreements, to be treated equally.Southbank said:
A no deal Brexit, or Brexit as it used to be known.PragueAddick said:
Well since you are here, perhaps you can tell us what form of Brexit you personally want to see, and then - and I really, really want to know this - what are the material changes in your own personal life that you expect that Brexit to bestow upon you.Southbank said:
We are all gonna die in our bedsRed_in_SE8 said:
We have wasted 2 years in what was always a pointless negotiation as many of us knew it would be.
We should have been preparing for no deal from the start. We have gained nothing from waiting.
We should have said we are leaving, declared that we would not charge import tariffs on our side, or block imports, and let the EU make its mind up if it still wanted to buy stuff from Britain. We should have unilaterally given all EU citizens the right to stay. Meanwhile we should have worked harder to get new trade deals ready. In other words we should have been open and confident, not timid supplicant like May and her Government.
Had we had a Leave Government that could have happened. If you could be bothered to look you will see I was saying this 2 years ago by the way.
Now we have the worst of all worlds and an on going political crisis.
Lack of leadership has been the main problem.
I have no idea what the economic impact of this chaos will be. But I have lived and worked through enough recessions to know we are not doomed whatever happens. But our political system is now completely disfunctional-that is the bigger problem.
With no requirement for other states to reciprocate, it would have been almost as if the UK was subsidising competitors to UK business.
I'll gloss over the practical difficulty that the UK Government has of not being legally able to negotiate any trade deals until after having left the EU. HMG cannot legally get trade deals ready (the conversations it can have are much more limited), and for potential partners the willingness of the UK to comply with its existing agreements is a bit important, not least because of what that signifies for future relationships.
A Leave Government, if by that you mean those ideologically committed to a complete rupture, would probably have tried something like the approach you suggest, but not, I fear, because it is workable or practical.
It's clear, from what they have said throughout the period since the beginning of the referendum campaign, that they wilfully misunderstand and misrepresent the relationships that the UK has, and can have, with the EU and the wider World. Theirs is a World view of entitlement and exceptionalism, that demands both that everyone else recognise and accept their own sovereign rights and that at the same time the sovereign rights of everyone else be swept aside to allow the achievement of their definition of Brexit. They portray the complex as simple, and shrug their shoulders and attempt to ignore any inconvenient problems that may arise, and, as with Ireland, decide that problems that they have created are for others to solve.
I almost wish that you had had your wish for a Government of the true believers, it would be (darkly) comic, but no-one deserves to be "governed" by such a coalition of the utterly talentless and delusional, lacking in any seriousness or understanding of or care about the consequences of their actions, and there are few, even Leave voters (barring Britain First and some UKIP), that I would willingly see be represented by such individuals.12 -
Don't expect a response Nornish. It'll be radio silence for a couple of hours now before the
nonsensefun starts up on another front.0 -
@Southbank
Ok , just assuming that the Brexit you wanted, happened. Please give me some examples of how you expect it to improve your own personal life.0 -
I would be more optimistic about our future if we had a political system that responded to the needs of our people.PragueAddick said:@Southbank
Ok , just assuming that the Brexit you wanted, happened. Please give me some examples of how you expect it to improve your own personal life.0 -
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And I stand by what I said on Friday, supporting Corbyn and being Anti Brexit isn’t possible, it’s like being against Lung Cancer and smoking 60 a day.
His view on the EU is the same as Redwood and Mogg, he’s that extreme, and you’re deluding yourself if it’s not.
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"The creatures outside looked from Rees Mogg to Corbyn, and from Corbyn to Rees Mogg and from Rees Mogg to Corbyn again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."7
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Me too. Under the current system they are responding to the wants not the needs, and it's sending us off a cliffSouthbank said:
I would be more optimistic about our future if we had a political system that responded to the needs of our people.PragueAddick said:@Southbank
Ok , just assuming that the Brexit you wanted, happened. Please give me some examples of how you expect it to improve your own personal life.3 -
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If we get to a point where people who sell stuff don't sell stuff to people who want to buy it then we will truly have come to the end of capitalism.Rothko said:This is your wet dream right here Southbank
Don't hold your breath and do not fret. And do not let your ideological opposition to Brexit to interfere with your common sense in this way.
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I think the answer to Prague's question you are struggling for is: "No".Southbank said:
I would be more optimistic about our future if we had a political system that responded to the needs of our people.PragueAddick said:@Southbank
Ok , just assuming that the Brexit you wanted, happened. Please give me some examples of how you expect it to improve your own personal life.
Glad to be of service.1 -
No irony in that at all...Southbank said:
If we get to a point where people who sell stuff don't sell stuff to people who want to buy it then we will truly have come to the end of capitalism.Rothko said:This is your wet dream right here Southbank
Don't hold your breath and do not fret. And do not let your ideological opposition to Brexit to interfere with your common sense in this way.
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It's all very well saying that we'll still be able to buy whatever we need but reality is somewhat different unless our leaders work out a way to ensure we can get it when we need it. And at what price too?Southbank said:
If we get to a point where people who sell stuff don't sell stuff to people who want to buy it then we will truly have come to the end of capitalism.Rothko said:This is your wet dream right here Southbank
Don't hold your breath and do not fret. And do not let your ideological opposition to Brexit to interfere with your common sense in this way.
If I'm supplying the catering operation for the NHS or the prison service or the army or whoever and I can't source 40% of my products from my normal source, market forces dictate that, even if I can get it elsewhere, I'll end up paying through the nose for it.
https://independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-hospital-food-shortages-nhs-negotiations-no-deal-eu-patient-meals-a8627806.html
It's your ideology that may well result in the public sector paying more than it needs to for basic items like food for hospital patients.2 -
The petty Nationalist dishing out lessons in ideology, spare me2
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What amazes me is how the obvious is always missed. I know it isn't just obvious to me, but to most people, so why are politicians so unaware of it. During the referendum, we had the git Osborne telling us the disaster that would befall us the day after the referendum. That was ridiculous as was his other scare stories. The disaster was always going to come after we had left! Then we had leavers telling us how easy it was going to be - that was never going to be the case. I assume Southbank's tongue is firmly in his cheek when he implies this chaos is all some government anti-brexit conspiracy. The government is so useless, he gives them too much credit!
It was obvious Brexit would be extremely difficult because of one common sense fact I know I kept going on about prior to the referendum. If we came out of all this with a good deal, it would put the future of the EU at grave risk. It is simple, but the reason why nobody was going to bend over backwards to give us everything we want. If I understood that, why didn't more intelligent people than me. Why did I, and many others - I am not bigging myself up here, not feel threatened by Sadam Hussain at all when Blair, the Prime Minsiter FFS told us otherwise?
We should be asking these questions, and seeing these jokers for what they are. A bit of honesty from both sides would have enabled the British public to make informed choices. We got to the point where we saw one of the most crazy lies I have ever seen is any campaign. The NHS TV add and message on the bus. I think it was so ridiculous that most people didn't believe it - but nobody seems to ask what allowed the people that run our country to show how dishonest they are. The Remainer politicians did similar with project fear.
The truth about what is going on is that it is all a massive pile of dog poo. We need another referendum because of it. Otherwise the choice will be between two options I'm pretty sure the British people didn't want or choose.1 -
So as @Algarveaddick said, it seems you cannot give me any concrete answers. Don't worry, you are not alone, many Brexiteers are the same. It is almost as if Brexit is some kind of proxy solution for all aspects of the discontent in their lives. So, walking down Floyd Road singing "I got my sovereignty back" (which doesn't scan, of course). Is that all it's about?Southbank said:
I would be more optimistic about our future if we had a political system that responded to the needs of our people.PragueAddick said:@Southbank
Ok , just assuming that the Brexit you wanted, happened. Please give me some examples of how you expect it to improve your own personal life.
Meanwhile in the real world, here is a 50 Tweet thread which documents real-life factual examples of costs of Brexit. Named companies relocating, costs incurred by the State, etc. And all this long before 29.3.19 when you get your sovereignty back...
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One of these men is promising to nationalise the rail network, and the other one would privatise your family if he could get away with itHenry Irving said:"The creatures outside looked from Rees Mogg to Corbyn, and from Corbyn to Rees Mogg and from Rees Mogg to Corbyn again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."
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An explanation on how this works:ThreadKiller said:
https://instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/10-things-know-about-world-trade-organization-wto
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Yeah, I like this explanation from The Leave Alliancestonemuse said:
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=1282 -
Article by Tom Peck in the Guardian:
“Labour Party, led by a man who is anathema to its values and, on Brexit, its members, continues to agitate for a general election rather than a second referendum. Corbyn and McDonnell know that the fastest and most likely route to power is the most disastrous Brexit possible and the bringing down of the government. It is the kind of power grab via Pyrrhic victory that only Boris Johnson was once considered shameless enough to want, but they are every inch his equal.”
Couldn’t agree more.17 -
A lol from @leuth ... why don’t you explain why you don’t see this as a power grab?stonemuse said:Article by Tom Peck in the Guardian:
“Labour Party, led by a man who is anathema to its values and, on Brexit, its members, continues to agitate for a general election rather than a second referendum. Corbyn and McDonnell know that the fastest and most likely route to power is the most disastrous Brexit possible and the bringing down of the government. It is the kind of power grab via Pyrrhic victory that only Boris Johnson was once considered shameless enough to want, but they are every inch his equal.”
Couldn’t agree more.0 -
More a tendency towards opportunism than any kind of calculated power grab. We have a place and time interface going on because it was 100% the Tory party that has initiated this nightmare.stonemuse said:Article by Tom Peck in the Guardian:
“Labour Party, led by a man who is anathema to its values and, on Brexit, its members, continues to agitate for a general election rather than a second referendum. Corbyn and McDonnell know that the fastest and most likely route to power is the most disastrous Brexit possible and the bringing down of the government. It is the kind of power grab via Pyrrhic victory that only Boris Johnson was once considered shameless enough to want, but they are every inch his equal.”
Couldn’t agree more.
Everyone can drag Corbyn into it as much as they like, but he is not the person who was in charge or who is in charge. I know the Labour position is terrible but in the grand scheme of chaos creation i would see Corbyn as being maybe 3% responsible. The 97% responsibility is down to those who advocated and voted for Brexit and the entire Tory party, Rees Mogg, Soubry and all.2 -
The bit that made me smirk the most was 'anathema to its values' tbh
Also there's a logical error. How can Labour force the Tories to cause a disastrous Brexit BEFORE getting into power themselves? This one's on Theresa and her gang. Obviously a direct comparison to BoJo is laughable2 -
Corbyn is the Messiah so any criticism is treated with disdain.stonemuse said:
A lol from @leuth ... why don’t you explain why you don’t see this as a power grab?stonemuse said:Article by Tom Peck in the Guardian:
“Labour Party, led by a man who is anathema to its values and, on Brexit, its members, continues to agitate for a general election rather than a second referendum. Corbyn and McDonnell know that the fastest and most likely route to power is the most disastrous Brexit possible and the bringing down of the government. It is the kind of power grab via Pyrrhic victory that only Boris Johnson was once considered shameless enough to want, but they are every inch his equal.”
Couldn’t agree more.
The only way to resolve this is either another referendum or we crash out - an election would be meaningless and certainly not decisive in terms of the way forward on Brexit. Both main parties are wedded to this 'will of the people' even though the 'will' of said people has probably changed sufficiently to have a narrow vote to remain. Nobody, not even Southbank I would think, voted for a Brexit without any deal whatsoever.
If Southbank did then perhaps he could explain the benefits of a no-deal Brexit. Oh no, wait a minute - I've asked that before and so has Prague on more than one occasion without any rational response.0 -
‘Theresa and her gang’ are complete shit, but Corbyn, a man who I used to think was incredibly principled, is looking as bad as BoJo in my mind.Leuth said:The bit that made me smirk the most was 'anathema to its values' tbh
Also there's a logical error. How can Labour force the Tories to cause a disastrous Brexit BEFORE getting into power themselves? This one's on Theresa and her gang. Obviously a direct comparison to BoJo is laughable
Labour has always had values; Corbyn’s approach to this entire issue is certainly anathema to its values. It’s a power grab and he is showing no more respect for the voters than May and her lot.2 -
That's a bit unfair, he has said many times that there is one indisputable benefit of Brexiters, it will make him feel warm and fuzzy about British democracy again. Now I'll give you he hasn't offered mcuh else, but he has offered at least that one thing.bobmunro said:
Corbyn is the Messiah so any criticism is treated with disdain.stonemuse said:
A lol from @leuth ... why don’t you explain why you don’t see this as a power grab?stonemuse said:Article by Tom Peck in the Guardian:
“Labour Party, led by a man who is anathema to its values and, on Brexit, its members, continues to agitate for a general election rather than a second referendum. Corbyn and McDonnell know that the fastest and most likely route to power is the most disastrous Brexit possible and the bringing down of the government. It is the kind of power grab via Pyrrhic victory that only Boris Johnson was once considered shameless enough to want, but they are every inch his equal.”
Couldn’t agree more.
The only way to resolve this is either another referendum or we crash out - an election would be meaningless and certainly not decisive in terms of the way forward on Brexit. Both main parties are wedded to this 'will of the people' even though the 'will' of said people has probably changed sufficiently to have a narrow vote to remain. Nobody, not even Southbank I would think, voted for a Brexit without any deal whatsoever.
If Southbank did then perhaps he could explain the benefits of a no-deal Brexit. Oh no, wait a minute - I've asked that before and so has Prague on more than one occasion without any rational response.0 -
There's considerable breathing space between 'can do no wrong' and 'as bad as Boris' tbf
Like, Corbyn does have to make a move at some point soon, but it has to be as argument-proof as possible. Don't you think Labour are working out how and when to switch strategy every single day?2 -
I think there is an element of seeing how the cards fall too. The factors that will bring Labour into play will start with May's current allies in parliament. We don't quite know how all of that is going to pan out.1
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