The influence of the EU on Britain.
Comments
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Who would have ever guessed this would all be so complex and how much the UK is intertwined with the EU? Umm.. most people with an idea of how the country works. What an avoidable mess, and the distraction it has caused for the last few years has allowed a truly terrible set of politicians to completely indulge themselves whilst much more important matters are ignored.14
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Apologies in that case. My mistake.stonemuse said:
I supported and proposed the total opposite. Do not trigger so early in order to allow both sides to still negotiate.Bournemouth Addick said:
Apologies if I've misremembered this but weren't you in favour of using the triggering of Article 50 as a subsequent negotiating ploy to get a better existing deal for us to stay in? In which case why does it matter when it was triggered?stonemuse said:
Not at all ... I have no answer to the situation we find ourselves in, hence I believe we will now remain.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
I agree remain must be an option ... it is the missed opportunities that annoy and frustrate me ... all due to Article 50 being enacted so soon.
To clarify though, you wanted to use the outcome of the referendum as a bargaining chip in extracting further concessions from the EU?0 -
I think that was Daniel Hannan.Bournemouth Addick said:Chaz Hill said:
I think Andrew Marr is doing a pretty good job of showing him up for the self serving, back stabbing prick that he is. 😊Bournemouth Addick said:Let's hope Andrew Marr give Raab as hard a time as he's just given Shami Chakrabarti...
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Whether it's deliberate or not, the arrival of a draft agreement has certainly increased the chances of no Brexit and/or an early election. For the problem is not Theresa May, but that Brexit and the associated promises in 2016 were undeliveable. Well, not without crashing the economy and isolating us etc. etc. Leave critics talk about leaving everything even when three million manufacturing jobs are at stake.Cordoban Addick said:I think the possibility of an election is not as remote as some fellow lifers think. We are no where near the end of this saga, merely as others have said at he end of the beginning, politically anything could happen from a no deal through to a no Brexit. A peoples vote is not necessarily more likely than another election or a change of PM.
I have thought for some time that the way to defeat Brexit is to get the Brexiteers to stop it, are we getting closer to that?
Has that been Theresa May's strategy all along.
As per my post yesterday, the latest polls plotting Leave/Remain intention vs geography and party loyalties suggest that a shift in public opinion is underway. And that's the thrust of this piece explaining what might happen next... And that a shift in the polls is required to change the outcome. The fear of BINO, staying in the CU and even joining the SM has in turn has led to even more shrill cries from the Brexit ultras. The Nadine Dorries quote is brilliant and actually reflects what BoJo was saying the other night before the agreement was released. His view was that Dublin would have more influence over our regulatory framework than our sovereign Parliament. And this is what happens when you leave but you still want access to the markets where 45% of import/export occurs!
So yes, it's not remoaners nor the Shadow Cabinet but the 50 hard line Brexiteers and the actual delivery which is potentially derailing Brexit. And now we have the added bonus of five Cabinet ministers spending the rest of this month trying to disrupt the draft agreement which really isn't going to assist getting it through.
For another angle, try this from Tom Kibasi who runs the IPPR:
"A hard Brexit that undermines labour standards and environmental protections while further limiting the role of the state in the economy is unlikely to win the support of Labour MPs. So, the only tactic that the prime minister has left is to threaten “no deal” with all its attendant chaos.
But May’s concession that “no Brexit” was a possibility confirms that “no deal” was a political hoax all along. In the 21st century, no British prime minister would put food and medicine supplies at risk simply to prove their stubbornness. The EU is clear that it will not extend the negotiating period for the UK to seek a better deal. If May’s proposal cannot pass through parliament, that leaves just two choices: a general election or a second referendum. It’s going to be a turbulent few months."
She might be a "bloody difficult woman" but will MPs allow her to game Parliament into supporting her deal. She will only win if Labour MPs support her or abstain. So let us be clear on the process: first we will see if there's a leadership contest and whether May comes through - we've seen her messaging and if she goes what then?
Assuming May survives, we next have the all important first attempt to pass the withdrawal agreement in Parliament. If that passes then we know exactly where we are but observers suggest that is highly unlikely for the DUP, ERG, SNP and 95% of Labour will not support it. What happens after that is probably Labour calling a no confidence vote which clearly has two possible outcomes:
i) if the no confidence is not carried, then we might move to a discussion about a People's vote. And all this needs to be resolved by end January. So is that a "long game" or a simple set of decisions which will occur in a set order?
ii) the no confidence might be carried but that looks unlikely at the first attempt.
The more noise from the Hard Brexit 50 and the less they play ball, the more likely that the only option left to resolve this issue is a People's vote. Bring it on Rees Mogg and BoJo!4 -
Thinking about it you're right it was Hannan. Off to the pub now but will try to find the example of Raab being a duplicitous twat I was thinking of later. In the meantime...Chizz said:
I think that was Daniel Hannan.Bournemouth Addick said:Chaz Hill said:
I think Andrew Marr is doing a pretty good job of showing him up for the self serving, back stabbing prick that he is. 😊Bournemouth Addick said:Let's hope Andrew Marr give Raab as hard a time as he's just given Shami Chakrabarti...
https://peoples-vote.uk/seven_times_dominic_raab_proved_he_s_a_brextremist2 -
Club night?Bournemouth Addick said:
Thinking about it you're right it was Hannan. Off to the pub now but will try to find the example of Raab being a duplicitous twat I was thinking of later. In the meantime...Chizz said:
I think that was Daniel Hannan.Bournemouth Addick said:Chaz Hill said:
I think Andrew Marr is doing a pretty good job of showing him up for the self serving, back stabbing prick that he is. 😊Bournemouth Addick said:Let's hope Andrew Marr give Raab as hard a time as he's just given Shami Chakrabarti...
https://peoples-vote.uk/seven_times_dominic_raab_proved_he_s_a_brextremist
Duplicitous twats - is it only Tory ones you don't approve of?
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Club night? Nope not picking up on your latest passive aggressiveness bullshit I'm afraid Art'.A-R-T-H-U-R said:
Club night?Bournemouth Addick said:
Thinking about it you're right it was Hannan. Off to the pub now but will try to find the example of Raab being a duplicitous twat I was thinking of later. In the meantime...Chizz said:
I think that was Daniel Hannan.Bournemouth Addick said:Chaz Hill said:
I think Andrew Marr is doing a pretty good job of showing him up for the self serving, back stabbing prick that he is. 😊Bournemouth Addick said:Let's hope Andrew Marr give Raab as hard a time as he's just given Shami Chakrabarti...
https://peoples-vote.uk/seven_times_dominic_raab_proved_he_s_a_brextremist
Duplicitous twats - is it only Tory ones you don't approve of?2 -
Good man.
Helps you avoid the question.1 -
No, you could not be more wrong.Bournemouth Addick said:
Apologies in that case. My mistake.stonemuse said:
I supported and proposed the total opposite. Do not trigger so early in order to allow both sides to still negotiate.Bournemouth Addick said:
Apologies if I've misremembered this but weren't you in favour of using the triggering of Article 50 as a subsequent negotiating ploy to get a better existing deal for us to stay in? In which case why does it matter when it was triggered?stonemuse said:
Not at all ... I have no answer to the situation we find ourselves in, hence I believe we will now remain.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
I agree remain must be an option ... it is the missed opportunities that annoy and frustrate me ... all due to Article 50 being enacted so soon.
To clarify though, you wanted to use the outcome of the referendum as a bargaining chip in extracting further concessions from the EU?
Unfortunately I am concerned that I get boring in having to always repeat my view ... which was that we remain in the EU within the concentric circles as espoused by many senior politicians and civil servants in the EU and the UK. This was the negotiation we should have kicked off.
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It's still up in the air.ShootersHillGuru said:
You mean in the same way that we are set to leave the eu on 29th March and have an exit deal backed by the government of the day on the table ?smudge7946 said:I think that we should have a second referendum, but totally ignore and disrespect the rssult.
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But Brexit means Brexit.smudge7946 said:
It's still up in the air.ShootersHillGuru said:
You mean in the same way that we are set to leave the eu on 29th March and have an exit deal backed by the government of the day on the table ?smudge7946 said:I think that we should have a second referendum, but totally ignore and disrespect the rssult.
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Not any more ... Brexit means Remain.ShootersHillGuru said:
But Brexit means Brexit.smudge7946 said:
It's still up in the air.ShootersHillGuru said:
You mean in the same way that we are set to leave the eu on 29th March and have an exit deal backed by the government of the day on the table ?smudge7946 said:I think that we should have a second referendum, but totally ignore and disrespect the rssult.
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We can only hope.stonemuse said:
Not any more ... Brexit means Remain.ShootersHillGuru said:
But Brexit means Brexit.smudge7946 said:
It's still up in the air.ShootersHillGuru said:
You mean in the same way that we are set to leave the eu on 29th March and have an exit deal backed by the government of the day on the table ?smudge7946 said:I think that we should have a second referendum, but totally ignore and disrespect the rssult.
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Brexit means that remain has won.ShootersHillGuru said:
But Brexit means Brexit.smudge7946 said:
It's still up in the air.ShootersHillGuru said:
You mean in the same way that we are set to leave the eu on 29th March and have an exit deal backed by the government of the day on the table ?smudge7946 said:I think that we should have a second referendum, but totally ignore and disrespect the rssult.
We ain't leaving.2 -
They told us they would deliver on the result. That promise is far from certain.0
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My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
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Back to square one.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
The same question leavers have been failing to get an answer to for two plus years. What Brexit exactly did you want ? because we could have Mays Brexit which as a remainer still looks like brexit to me or do you want the fully fledged full metal jacket Brexit where we all kiss our arses goodbye. Apart from the nuttiest of nut jobs nobody wants that.
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Because, as anyone with half a brain cell knows, the decision to leave was the most stupid decision of self harm ever made by a democracy. The morons who fell for the lies and disinformation of the Brexit terrorists need to be protected from themselves.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
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ShootersHillGuru said:
Back to square one.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
The same question leavers have been failing to get an answer to for two plus years. What Brexit exactly did you want ? because we could have Mays Brexit which as a remainer still looks like brexit to me or do you want the fully fledged full metal jacket Brexit where we all kiss our arses goodbye. Apart from the nuttiest of nut jobs nobody wants that.
Where we have control over our laws, borders and money-not what is in the current agreement.ShootersHillGuru said:
Back to square one.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
The same question leavers have been failing to get an answer to for two plus years. What Brexit exactly did you want ? because we could have Mays Brexit which as a remainer still looks like brexit to me or do you want the fully fledged full metal jacket Brexit where we all kiss our arses goodbye. Apart from the nuttiest of nut jobs nobody wants that.0 -
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And to be clear, I think that Brexit could be great for the economy if it forces a shake up in the way it is run-along the lines of the Times article I posted yesterday.ShootersHillGuru said:
Back to square one.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
The same question leavers have been failing to get an answer to for two plus years. What Brexit exactly did you want ? because we could have Mays Brexit which as a remainer still looks like brexit to me or do you want the fully fledged full metal jacket Brexit where we all kiss our arses goodbye. Apart from the nuttiest of nut jobs nobody wants that.1 -
Yes, like the WTO rules brexit love so much. Not sure the value of our currency is entirely in our own hands eitherSouthbank said:ShootersHillGuru said:
Back to square one.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
The same question leavers have been failing to get an answer to for two plus years. What Brexit exactly did you want ? because we could have Mays Brexit which as a remainer still looks like brexit to me or do you want the fully fledged full metal jacket Brexit where we all kiss our arses goodbye. Apart from the nuttiest of nut jobs nobody wants that.
Where we have control over our laws, borders and money-not what is in the current agreement.ShootersHillGuru said:
Back to square one.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
The same question leavers have been failing to get an answer to for two plus years. What Brexit exactly did you want ? because we could have Mays Brexit which as a remainer still looks like brexit to me or do you want the fully fledged full metal jacket Brexit where we all kiss our arses goodbye. Apart from the nuttiest of nut jobs nobody wants that.1 -
To be fair - had the negotiations gone half a simply as Vote Leave promised, we would be definitely leaving. Not sure why some are content to ignore the complete lies we were spun.4
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Morons? Charming, as usual! It’s that type of narrative which if there was another vote, would ensure plenty vote leave again.l, just like in the build up to the vote.Red_in_SE8 said:
Because, as anyone with half a brain cell knows, the decision to leave was the most stupid decision of self harm ever made by a democracy. The morons who fell for the lies and disinformation of the Brexit terrorists need to be protected from themselves.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
Just because the Govt have made a clusterfuck since the vote, does not mean that plenty of people who voted leave did not do so for honourable and justifiable reasons. Intelligent, worldly people from all walks of life voted leave. The numbers make that evidently clear.3 -
So just because someone calls you a moron you would be prepared to vote for something you knew was damaging just to make a point ?The Organiser said:
Morons? Charming, as usual! It’s that type of narrative which if there was another vote, would ensure plenty vote leave again.l, just like in the build up to the vote.Red_in_SE8 said:
Because, as anyone with half a brain cell knows, the decision to leave was the most stupid decision of self harm ever made by a democracy. The morons who fell for the lies and disinformation of the Brexit terrorists need to be protected from themselves.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
Just because the Govt have made a clusterfuck since the vote, does not mean that plenty of people who voted leave did not do so for honourable and justifiable reasons. Intelligent, worldly people from all walks of life voted leave. The numbers make that evidently clear.
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I agree with you there. It is important for the Brexiters to hang themselves - which they are doing. It is no good winning another referendum and losing it! I think some of the Remainers on here think tactics are little Italian mints4
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Back to square oneSouthbank said:ShootersHillGuru said:
Back to square one.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
The same question leavers have been failing to get an answer to for two plus years. What Brexit exactly did you want ? because we could have Mays Brexit which as a remainer still looks like brexit to me or do you want the fully fledged full metal jacket Brexit where we all kiss our arses goodbye. Apart from the nuttiest of nut jobs nobody wants that.
Where we have control over our laws, borders and money-not what is in the current agreement.ShootersHillGuru said:
Back to square one.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
The same question leavers have been failing to get an answer to for two plus years. What Brexit exactly did you want ? because we could have Mays Brexit which as a remainer still looks like brexit to me or do you want the fully fledged full metal jacket Brexit where we all kiss our arses goodbye. Apart from the nuttiest of nut jobs nobody wants that.
Which laws that we currently have that you dislike so much and would not be the same outside of the eu. Name two ?
The nonsense that we cannot bring down immigration under existing laws has been done to death. Roughly half ish of our immigration is from outside the eu.
Last time I looked we were not in the eurozone.
You know all that already but keep rattling out the same old claptrap. The evidence is out there but you ignore it.
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Ahh...I've just remembered why I try to ignore you and your thinly disguised support for Conservative policy.A-R-T-H-U-R said:Good man.
Helps you avoid the question.
As for your question, no. I don't. It's easier to ignore or disregard the duplicitous twats that aren't ruining the country for a generation, as per Raab et al are at the moment though.
I'm back to the bar. Still don't get your "club night" reference tbh but have a nice evening yourself.0 -
Look, the Conservative party need all the support they can get. You can't begrudge that!0
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Not me personally, no, but plenty would not appreciate being patronised with such a condesending attitude. Just like in the lead up to the vote.ShootersHillGuru said:
So just because someone calls you a moron you would be prepared to vote for something you knew was damaging just to make a point ?The Organiser said:
Morons? Charming, as usual! It’s that type of narrative which if there was another vote, would ensure plenty vote leave again.l, just like in the build up to the vote.Red_in_SE8 said:
Because, as anyone with half a brain cell knows, the decision to leave was the most stupid decision of self harm ever made by a democracy. The morons who fell for the lies and disinformation of the Brexit terrorists need to be protected from themselves.Southbank said:
My question would be, we voted to Leave why aren't we leaving.ThreadKiller said:@stonemuse Remain has to be an option since we are all allowed to change our minds, but what would your alternative proposal to go on the ballot as leave means leave is very undefinable. Are you suggestion in order to not split the leave vote that the option should be around leaving completely with no surrounding agreements in place, what would be your question?
Just because the Govt have made a clusterfuck since the vote, does not mean that plenty of people who voted leave did not do so for honourable and justifiable reasons. Intelligent, worldly people from all walks of life voted leave. The numbers make that evidently clear.
And lots still won’t see it as necessarily damaging in the long term.1
