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The influence of the EU on Britain.
Comments
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This winds me up. All along shitrags like the sun love to throw sensationalist shite in our face about the evils of the EU and tell us the queen backs Brexit, as soon as it looks like it may turn out to be shit, quickly scurry back and start to either blame it on the Tories, or ignore the fact they’ve spent the last few years campaigning for itBournemouth Addick said:Telegraph reporting today on a poll for them. 66% disapprove on governments handling of negotiations. That's the Telegraph to repeat.
With this and the Sun starting to run more critical articles is this the start of the right wing press getting their excuses lined up in case/for when it all hits the fan?11 -
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.8 -
But that would mean allowing uncontrolled immigration from the EU.Cordoban Addick said:
Well we could stay in the Single Market but leave the EU.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
So it doesn't tick a box for me personally and is a no no.1 -
So what would you like to see @Valiantphil ?0
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@Valiantphil do you really believe that? Run it past the average Dutchman and then stand back quickly before he can deck you.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
It's a typical island mentality remark, and i say that more in sorrow than in anger.
4 -
I suppose the media like to say that the EU was a big monster that excluded the UK and tried to control it. However there is no evidence to support that, beyond some wanting to believe it.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
Cameron being useless is not an indicator that the EU is anti the UK.9 -
@ShootersHillGuru
I would settle for a no-Brexit with immigration caps (as mentioned in the Stephen Kinnock article above).
Perhaps a quota system in place of total free movement.
Failing that, I would favour a hard border in NI/ROI - whatever that means, or a sea border for the island of Ireland.
Can"t see another way to placate me (speaking personally as a Brexit voter).
As always - happy to listen to solutions/ideas.1 -
Yep.PragueAddick said:
@Valiantphil do you really believe that? Run it past the average Dutchman and then stand back quickly before he can deck you.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
It's a typical island mentality remark, and i say that more in sorrow than in anger.
All the Dutchies I know are pretty non-violent, but I willl heed your advice.
I wonder why there was talk of a Nexit straight after our vote. Seems there were some there contemplating leaving. Strange if they are as big hitters round the table as you suggest.1 -
In my view there are only two border options in Ireland. No border or a hard border. A 'soft' or 'frictionless as possible' border is still a hard border.Valiantphil said:@ShootersHillGuru
I would settle for a no-Brexit with immigration caps (as mentioned in the Stephen Kinnock article above).
Perhaps a quota system in place of total free movement.
Failing that, I would favour a hard border in NI/ROI - whatever that means, or a sea border for the island of Ireland.
Can"t see another way to placate me (speaking personally as a Brexit voter).
As always - happy to listen to solutions/ideas.
The cost in money alone to police the border will be immense, and the political cost will be a huge unpredictable risk that the UK government is in no position to deal with.
A 'hard' border in Ireland will mean a 'hard' border with the rest of the EU at ports, ferries and airports. There will be transportation and security implications as yet unarticulated.
I suppose everything can be confronted if you throw enough money at it, the thing is the cost will be huge and the UK can't afford such expenses when domestic issues have such a pull on resources.
I suppose there could be a 'brexit tax' to pay for the additional costs brought about by leaving, that tax would satisfy the 'will of the people' bit wouldn't it?2 -
Sponsored links:
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It would have been nice if our politicians could have explained at the beginning of the process what the possible outcomes were as I would put continuing peace in NI above most things Brexit related.Valiantphil said:
But that would mean allowing uncontrolled immigration from the EU.Cordoban Addick said:
Well we could stay in the Single Market but leave the EU.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
So it doesn't tick a box for me personally and is a no no.
I know this is hypothetical and we don't know what will happen in the future but does the border in Ireland boil down to
Controlled EU migration V Possible end to peace process - to risky as far as I am concerned, particularly with the Tories stirring up ill feeling with their DUP deal.2 -
I think you will find that even Wilders was not standing on an outright anti-EU platform. And he underperformed.Valiantphil said:
Yep.PragueAddick said:
@Valiantphil do you really believe that? Run it past the average Dutchman and then stand back quickly before he can deck you.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
It's a typical island mentality remark, and i say that more in sorrow than in anger.
All the Dutchies I know are pretty non-violent, but I willl heed your advice.
I wonder why there was talk of a Nexit straight after our vote. Seems there were some there contemplating leaving. Strange if they are as big hitters round the table as you suggest.
The main point I am making, which seems to have completely eluded you, is that the Dutch retain a resentment towards the Germans at a certain level which is comparable to that which can be still seen in the UK. Therefore they are no more likely to "kow-tow" to the Germans than the Brits are. However they are a far more outward looking nation than the UK, and at a political level they really don't have a problem with modern Germany.
You are repeating a British eurosceptic caricature of the EU in your statement. Anyone who lives on the Continent knows that it is bollocks for this reason: Politically the French and the Germans are the ones who instinctively disagree with each other! How is it possible for the other 25 to obediently fall in line, if the alleged Big Two are consistently disagreeing with each other? Whom do you fall in line with??
Did you not hear the story of the distraught German diplomat after the Brexit vote who implored his British counterpart "Please...don't leave us with the French!"
9 -
David Cameron wanted to get an exemption for the UK from a fundamental part of all EEC/EC/EU Treaties.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
To get what he stated he wanted would require changes to the EU (and EEA) Treaties/Agreement. This kind of change requires unanimity, having the Germans and French on board would have been a good start, but would not have been enough without the consent of the other member states. It also requires time for patient negotiations.
You may have noticed the attempt to create an EU Constitution, derailed by French and Dutch referenda, which ended that effort at Treaty change.
Simply put, he set himself both an impossible target and a ludicrous deadline.3 -
I’ll tell you what, after the last few weeks for the Tory party, I bet they can’t wait for the next round of negotiations4
-
There was talk of a 'frexit' too when the national front was on the rise in France, strange as they are the eu big hitters you suggest.Valiantphil said:
Yep.PragueAddick said:
@Valiantphil do you really believe that? Run it past the average Dutchman and then stand back quickly before he can deck you.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
It's a typical island mentality remark, and i say that more in sorrow than in anger.
All the Dutchies I know are pretty non-violent, but I willl heed your advice.
I wonder why there was talk of a Nexit straight after our vote. Seems there were some there contemplating leaving. Strange if they are as big hitters round the table as you suggest.1 -
Red_in_SE8 said:
Anyone who base their opinions onw and votes according to exactly what the papers say (the Sun in particular), don't deserve a vote in the first place.cabbles said:
This winds me up. All along shitrags like the sun love to throw sensationalist shite in our face about the evils of the EU and tell us the queen backs Brexit, as soon as it looks like it may turn out to be shit, quickly scurry back and start to either blame it on the Tories, or ignore the fact they’ve spent the last few years campaigning for itBournemouth Addick said:Telegraph reporting today on a poll for them. 66% disapprove on governments handling of negotiations. That's the Telegraph to repeat.
With this and the Sun starting to run more critical articles is this the start of the right wing press getting their excuses lined up in case/for when it all hits the fan?2 -
No I don't, rank stupidity just isn't on my spectrum.Southbank said:
You still do not get it. I and others would have voted Leave even if the Leave campaign had said we would all be a bit worse off as a result.Algarveaddick said:
Sorry - I assumed (bad of me) that you voted leave.Big_Bad_World said:
Your inference was that I, at some stage, believed the £350M figure to be true.Algarveaddick said:
Adverb: Up to and including the present or the time mentioned; even now (or then) as formerly.Big_Bad_World said:
What do you mean by 'still'?Algarveaddick said:
So you still thank that is going to happen when we do then, BBW?Big_Bad_World said:Someone needs to tell this fella that we haven't left yet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41908302
The dictionary is your friend...
Kindly cite the post of mine whereby I make that claim.
Lies are bad....
Oh that it were only "a bit worse off"...7 -
Speaking as someone who has a residence and a business in France - the French are only interested in what's good for France. Most EU states are probably the same but not (in my experience) as sellf centred as France.Super_Eddie_Youds said:
There was talk of a 'frexit' too when the national front was on the rise in France, strange as they are the eu big hitters you suggest.Valiantphil said:
Yep.PragueAddick said:
@Valiantphil do you really believe that? Run it past the average Dutchman and then stand back quickly before he can deck you.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
It's a typical island mentality remark, and i say that more in sorrow than in anger.
All the Dutchies I know are pretty non-violent, but I willl heed your advice.
I wonder why there was talk of a Nexit straight after our vote. Seems there were some there contemplating leaving. Strange if they are as big hitters round the table as you suggest.
When France saw the UK vote result, they could see it would mean higher financial contributions from the remaining members - i e France.
Hence the talk of Frexit. The finance issue coupled with the terror attacks they had experienced gave rise to a call for change - which has subsided somewhat at the moment.2 -
Interesting you associate and make a connection between Frexit and the rise of the right wing of politics !!!!!!Valiantphil said:
Speaking as someone who has a residence and a business in France - the French are only interested in what's good for France. Most EU states are probably the same but not (in my experience) as sellf centred as France.Super_Eddie_Youds said:
There was talk of a 'frexit' too when the national front was on the rise in France, strange as they are the eu big hitters you suggest.Valiantphil said:
Yep.PragueAddick said:
@Valiantphil do you really believe that? Run it past the average Dutchman and then stand back quickly before he can deck you.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
It's a typical island mentality remark, and i say that more in sorrow than in anger.
All the Dutchies I know are pretty non-violent, but I willl heed your advice.
I wonder why there was talk of a Nexit straight after our vote. Seems there were some there contemplating leaving. Strange if they are as big hitters round the table as you suggest.
When France saw the UK vote result, they could see it would mean higher financial contributions from the remaining members - i e France.
Hence the talk of Frexit. The finance issue coupled with the terror attacks they had experienced gave rise to a call for change - which has subsided somewhat at the moment.
That assertion has caused endless angst and rejection to the point of venom from the brexiteers on this forum.
2 -
Sponsored links:
-
Algarveaddick said:
No I don't, rank stupidity just isn't on my spectrum.Southbank said:
You still do not get it. I and others would have voted Leave even if the Leave campaign had said we would all be a bit worse off as a result.Algarveaddick said:
Sorry - I assumed (bad of me) that you voted leave.Big_Bad_World said:
Your inference was that I, at some stage, believed the £350M figure to be true.Algarveaddick said:
Adverb: Up to and including the present or the time mentioned; even now (or then) as formerly..Big_Bad_World said:
What do you mean by 'still'?Algarveaddick said:
So you still thank that is going to happen when we do then, BBW?Big_Bad_World said:Someone needs to tell this fella that we haven't left yet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41908302
The dictionary is your friend...
Kindly cite the post of mine whereby I make that claim.
Lies are bad....
Oh that it were only "a bit worse off"...
Except he did not say anything about right wing politics-he said a call for change. You imposed your own interpretation on thisShootersHillGuru said:
Interesting you associate and make a connection between Frexit and the rise of the right wing of politics !!!!!!Valiantphil said:
Speaking as someone who has a residence and a business in France - the French are only interested in what's good for France. Most EU states are probably the same but not (in my experience) as sellf centred as France.Super_Eddie_Youds said:
There was talk of a 'frexit' too when the national front was on the rise in France, strange as they are the eu big hitters you suggest.Valiantphil said:
Yep.PragueAddick said:
@Valiantphil do you really believe that? Run it past the average Dutchman and then stand back quickly before he can deck you.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
It's a typical island mentality remark, and i say that more in sorrow than in anger.
All the Dutchies I know are pretty non-violent, but I willl heed your advice.
I wonder why there was talk of a Nexit straight after our vote. Seems there were some there contemplating leaving. Strange if they are as big hitters round the table as you suggest.
When France saw the UK vote result, they could see it would mean higher financial contributions from the remaining members - i e France.
Hence the talk of Frexit. The finance issue coupled with the terror attacks they had experienced gave rise to a call for change - which has subsided somewhat at the moment.
That assertion has caused endless angst and rejection to the point of venom from the brexiteers on this forum.
Traditional French politics virtually collapsed this year under the weight of voter disillusionment. It would be just as wrong to say that this was 'right wing' in France as it would be in the UK. Populism is a ragbag of policies, some left wing like Corbyn and Melenchon and some right wing like Le Pen.2 -
But what if the Germans propose something that doesn't fit well with French interests? Cos you said above that the EU is basically the French and Germans running the thing together....Valiantphil said:
Speaking as someone who has a residence and a business in France - the French are only interested in what's good for France. Most EU states are probably the same but not (in my experience) as sellf centred as France.Super_Eddie_Youds said:
There was talk of a 'frexit' too when the national front was on the rise in France, strange as they are the eu big hitters you suggest.Valiantphil said:
Yep.PragueAddick said:
@Valiantphil do you really believe that? Run it past the average Dutchman and then stand back quickly before he can deck you.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
It's a typical island mentality remark, and i say that more in sorrow than in anger.
All the Dutchies I know are pretty non-violent, but I willl heed your advice.
I wonder why there was talk of a Nexit straight after our vote. Seems there were some there contemplating leaving. Strange if they are as big hitters round the table as you suggest.
When France saw the UK vote result, they could see it would mean higher financial contributions from the remaining members - i e France.
Hence the talk of Frexit. The finance issue coupled with the terror attacks they had experienced gave rise to a call for change - which has subsided somewhat at the moment.
I note also that you have revealed your "residence" and business in France. Lets hope your French neighbours and colleagues are understanding of your views on Brexit, then, and you don't suffer the same treatment as too many Poles in the U.K. right now. Still since you don't seem to care much for the French, perhaps you will do the decent thing and sell up, and commit yourself 100% to the sunlit uplands of the U.K. under the leadership of the Cartoon Aristocrat.
0 -
Posted by Super_Eddie_YoudsPragueAddick said:
But what if the Germans propose something that doesn't fit well with French interests? Cos you said above that the EU is basically the French and Germans running the thing together....Valiantphil said:
Speaking as someone who has a residence and a business in France - the French are only interested in what's good for France. Most EU states are probably the same but not (in my experience) as sellf centred as France.Super_Eddie_Youds said:
There was talk of a 'frexit' too when the national front was on the rise in France, strange as they are the eu big hitters you suggest.Valiantphil said:
Yep.PragueAddick said:
@Valiantphil do you really believe that? Run it past the average Dutchman and then stand back quickly before he can deck you.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
It's a typical island mentality remark, and i say that more in sorrow than in anger.
All the Dutchies I know are pretty non-violent, but I willl heed your advice.
I wonder why there was talk of a Nexit straight after our vote. Seems there were some there contemplating leaving. Strange if they are as big hitters round the table as you suggest.
When France saw the UK vote result, they could see it would mean higher financial contributions from the remaining members - i e France.
Hence the talk of Frexit. The finance issue coupled with the terror attacks they had experienced gave rise to a call for change - which has subsided somewhat at the moment.
I note also that you have revealed your "residence" and business in France. Lets hope your French neighbours and colleagues are understanding of your views on Brexit, then, and you don't suffer the same treatment as too many Poles in the U.K. right now. Still since you don't seem to care much for the French, perhaps you will do the decent thing and sell up, and commit yourself 100% to the sunlit uplands of the U.K. under the leadership of the Cartoon Aristocrat.
“There was talk of a 'frexit' too when the national front was on the rise in France, strange as they are the eu big hitters you suggest.”
I was not intending to attribute this to Valiantphil. Apologies if that was the case. However my point stands regardless of my poor quoting.0 -
There are probably occasions with the French and Germans disagree as you describe above. I suspect it usually ends with the Germans getting their way (because they pay the bills) and France writing in a clause that allows them to do as they likePragueAddick said:
But what if the Germans propose something that doesn't fit well with French interests? Cos you said above that the EU is basically the French and Germans running the thing together....Valiantphil said:
Speaking as someone who has a residence and a business in France - the French are only interested in what's good for France. Most EU states are probably the same but not (in my experience) as sellf centred as France.Super_Eddie_Youds said:
There was talk of a 'frexit' too when the national front was on the rise in France, strange as they are the eu big hitters you suggest.Valiantphil said:
Yep.PragueAddick said:
@Valiantphil do you really believe that? Run it past the average Dutchman and then stand back quickly before he can deck you.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
It's a typical island mentality remark, and i say that more in sorrow than in anger.
All the Dutchies I know are pretty non-violent, but I willl heed your advice.
I wonder why there was talk of a Nexit straight after our vote. Seems there were some there contemplating leaving. Strange if they are as big hitters round the table as you suggest.
When France saw the UK vote result, they could see it would mean higher financial contributions from the remaining members - i e France.
Hence the talk of Frexit. The finance issue coupled with the terror attacks they had experienced gave rise to a call for change - which has subsided somewhat at the moment.
I note also that you have revealed your "residence" and business in France. Lets hope your French neighbours and colleagues are understanding of your views on Brexit, then, and you don't suffer the same treatment as too many Poles in the U.K. right now. Still since you don't seem to care much for the French, perhaps you will do the decent thing and sell up, and commit yourself 100% to the sunlit uplands of the U.K. under the leadership of the Cartoon Aristocrat.
You may be surprised at the views on Brexit in France. In my experience they are not surprised at the referendum result.
I have a residence in France. I live in U.K mostly.
Post Brexit - France will say to me "are you bringing anything to the party here?"
I will say , "yes, local employment and taxation revenue"
They may say "sling your hook" - but I very much doubt it.
Like most Brexit stuff - We will see.1 -
I post this in an attempt to inform the debate, not to establish any particular position.
However it is about EU democracy, and within it one can discover that countries with smaller populations can muscle in alongside France, Germany and the UK. My reading is that if anything, France and Germany are very restrained by the organisation as a whole, and when Trump for example says the EU is basically somewhere with Merkel in charge he is simply wrong.
http://theconversation.com/how-democratic-is-the-european-union-594190 -
Valiantphil said:
There are probably occasions with the French and Germans disagree as you describe above. I suspect it usually ends with the Germans getting their way (because they pay the bills) and France writing in a clause that allows them to do as they likePragueAddick said:
But what if the Germans propose something that doesn't fit well with French interests? Cos you said above that the EU is basically the French and Germans running the thing together....Valiantphil said:
Speaking as someone who has a residence and a business in France - the French are only interested in what's good for France. Most EU states are probably the same but not (in my experience) as sellf centred as France.Super_Eddie_Youds said:
There was talk of a 'frexit' too when the national front was on the rise in France, strange as they are the eu big hitters you suggest.Valiantphil said:
Yep.PragueAddick said:
@Valiantphil do you really believe that? Run it past the average Dutchman and then stand back quickly before he can deck you.Valiantphil said:
Seth - do you really believe that ?seth plum said:
Until brexit happens we are in the EU. And certainly before the vote the 'EU fellas' was us as much as anything.Valiantphil said:
OK - so we should cancel Brexit because we can't find a (peaceful) border solution.ShootersHillGuru said:
Seems to be popular so I’ll get in on the act. History is your friend.Valiantphil said:
So, you are saying that things and circumstances change over time ?randy andy said:
How would anybody be told in 1972, that the Good Friday Agreement signed over 25 years later would have an impact on our relationship with the EU?Valiantphil said:
Was anyone told then that we would be unable to leave unless we had a NI/ROI border solution ?
I think not - but (as always) am open to correction.
And how does 2 treaties that our sovereign parliament freely entered into, but are incompatible under the new circumstances equate to a loss of sovereignty in any way shape or form, unless you're starting from a position of "we've lost sovereignty, I now need to find someway to explain that whilst making it the EUs fault".
Yes, I agree.
After Brexit, things will change again and we will have to adapt. One of these things will be how the NI/ROI border is run. It will change, and we will have to adapt.
If the EU or the rest of the world wants to hold us to ransom over trade, then yes, there could be hardship.
We will have to adapt.
If there is dissident terrorism activity as a result of the changes (not good), we will have to deal with it - in the same way we already live with terrorism everyday in everything we do.
IMO, the UK shouldn't be reluctant to implement any border law/rule changes in case it incites terrorism activity, or continue to allow uncontrolled immigration into an already overcrowded UK.
The puzzle of the NI/ROI border is how to reconcile these two things. If expert opinion is that they cannot be reconciled, then one of these two things has to be modified to suit.
The EU says it cannot bend from the four freedoms of the EU (understandable), so that only leaves the way the border is operated.
Over to you guys..............
Partition has never worked out well. In every instance it has been used to solve a problem it has invariably created an even worse one. It is always rejected by those that endure an artificial border most often with violence and breeds a deep and angry resentment. If anyone can offer me evidence to the contrary I will be amazed.
The border in Ireland since its inception has proved to be a costly in both monetary and in life. The relaxation of the existing border brought about by the Good Friday Agreement and joint membership of the EU has thankfully eased the tensions and allowed for what are now years of relatively trouble free times.
Any return to a regulated border will without question result in it being a gift to the men of violence and will cost hundreds of millions to maintain.
Glibly saying people will have to adapt is tantamount to washing your hands of the inevitable violence and chaos.
The border between the ROI and NI is a huge obstacle for successful Brexit negotiations to overcome. 18 months post referendum I am still yet to see an inch of movement in finding an acceptable solution.
Hence we are in the EU forever, I guess.
I wonder how long after we cancel Brexit till the EU start upping our contribution ?
Why not ? After all, we have put ourselves in a position where we can never leave so the EU might as well make hay while the sun is guaranteed to shine - pretty much forever.
Could be why Cameron came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum visit. The EU fellas know we can't leave without creating a host of other insurmountable problems - so they have us right where they would like us.
Good old UK - damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
The EU is Germany and France, the rest of us are just along for the ride - as was shown when Dave came back empty(ish) handed from his pre-referendum trip.
It's a typical island mentality remark, and i say that more in sorrow than in anger.
All the Dutchies I know are pretty non-violent, but I willl heed your advice.
I wonder why there was talk of a Nexit straight after our vote. Seems there were some there contemplating leaving. Strange if they are as big hitters round the table as you suggest.
When France saw the UK vote result, they could see it would mean higher financial contributions from the remaining members - i e France.
Hence the talk of Frexit. The finance issue coupled with the terror attacks they had experienced gave rise to a call for change - which has subsided somewhat at the moment.
I note also that you have revealed your "residence" and business in France. Lets hope your French neighbours and colleagues are understanding of your views on Brexit, then, and you don't suffer the same treatment as too many Poles in the U.K. right now. Still since you don't seem to care much for the French, perhaps you will do the decent thing and sell up, and commit yourself 100% to the sunlit uplands of the U.K. under the leadership of the Cartoon Aristocrat.
You may be surprised at the views on Brexit in France. In my experience they are not surprised at the referendum result.
I have a residence in France. I live in U.K mostly.
Post Brexit - France will say to me "are you bringing anything to the party here?"
I will say , "yes, local employment and taxation revenue"
They may say "sling your hook" - but I very much doubt it.
Like most Brexit stuff - We will see.
Do you not stop to consider that you have this residence, and you have your business, in no small part because of Britain's EU membership?
Just as another prominent Brexiteer Lifer has received important health care in France only because the relevant EU directive has allowed him and other British citizens the facility to seek such care anywhere in the Union.
In both cases Brexit will deny future generations these important life-changing advantages you have both enjoyed.
Forgive me for putting it this bluntly , but why should people not see this as the most grotesque hypocrisy?
14 -
A pertinent comment someone made on LinkedIn:PragueAddick said:
Bump.se9addick said:So...what happened to those industry reports? Were they published?
I heard this morning on the Parliament segment that they are still being "collated" . WTF?
I was looking forward to reading those impact assessments. I had mentally come up with a number of scenarios about why the Government had refused to release them, but the possibility that they never existed in the first place was not one of them. However, it does explain why they were never leaked when everything else has been. So, this leads to another question. What have all those departments involved in Brexit actually been doing over the last 16 or so months if they have not been assessing the effect of Brexit on various aspects of UK Governance, which is, lets face it, a rather important first step?
Davis comes out very badly in the below:
politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2017/11/08/the-lying-game-a-disturbing-pattern-of-deceit-in-westminster
1 -
Wait - so the impact assessments don't actually exist at all? I thought that was a joke.2
-
So did I.se9addick said:Wait - so the impact assessments don't actually exist at all? I thought that was a joke.
Beyond parody, to borrow an Airman phrase
0 -
How can he be trusted as chief negotiator, if he's been caught making stuff up? Might as well give Katrien a go!1
This discussion has been closed.
