Catalan Independence vote

Curb_It

Or better still, ban them.

Just joking you argumentative tits!

AddicksAddict

cafcdave123 said:

Police : move or you'll be removed

People refuse to move

Police remove them

People moan of police brutality

Load of old shit!

Are you being deliberately provocative or just plain stupid?

SuedeAdidas

@Fiiiiiish @Big_Bad_World

SantaClaus

AFKABartram said:

they few of you that take your petty squabbles with each other from thread to thread, the rest of us are pig bored with it, and its dominating every single related subject.

Those of you that clearly enjoy that, set up a group inbox with each other and dig away until your hearts content.

thanks for the update @ken_shabby

Bloody central government bossing the little people around.

hoof_it_up_to_benty

AddicksAddict said:

cafcdave123 said:

Police : move or you'll be removed

People refuse to move

Police remove them

People moan of police brutality

Load of old shit!

Are you being deliberately provocative or just plain stupid?

Can we have a referendum on this?

i_b_b_o_r_g

Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.

Stu_of_Kunming

i_b_b_o_r_g said:

Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.

Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.

Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.

i_b_b_o_r_g

Weird old state of affairs.

hoof_it_up_to_benty

Stu_of_Kunming said:

i_b_b_o_r_g said:

Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.

Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.

Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.

The government have just been plain dumb..

ken_shabby

Stu_of_Kunming said:

i_b_b_o_r_g said:

Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.

Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.

Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.

I think you are right about the referéndum - it would have avoided the injuries and bloodshed and been much less damaging image wise just to let them have their fun and ignore it afterwards. However, we would basically be in the same place this morning - the Independence movement would have won, and announce Independence within 48 hours, At some point the government in Madrid were going to wake up and block this - they still will, so while it would have avoided yesterdays appalling scenes, it would have left us roughly where we are now anyway.
There's no ignoring a section of your country that is preparing to unilaterally break away.

se9addick

ken_shabby said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

i_b_b_o_r_g said:

Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.

Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.

Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.

I think you are right about the referéndum - it would have avoided the injuries and bloodshed and been much less damaging image wise. However, we would basically be in the same place this morning - the Independence movement would have won, and announce Independence within 48 hours, At some point the government in Madrid were going to wake up and block this - they still will, so while it would have avoided yesterdays appalling scenes, it would have left us roughly where we are now anyway.

So it definitely would have been better then - we'd be exactly where we are but less grannies would have been clubbed by policemen.

ken_shabby

That's what I said. But the larger problems are ahead.

Stu_of_Kunming

ken_shabby said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

i_b_b_o_r_g said:

Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.

Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.

Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.

I think you are right about the referéndum - it would have avoided the injuries and bloodshed and been much less damaging image wise just to let them have their fun and ignore it afterwards. However, we would basically be in the same place this morning - the Independence movement would have won, and announce Independence within 48 hours, At some point the government in Madrid were going to wake up and block this - they still will, so while it would have avoided yesterdays appalling scenes, it would have left us roughly where we are now anyway.
There's no ignoring a section of your country that is preparing to unilaterally break away.

By roughly where we are, you mean in a totally different place, all they have achieved is to galvanize more support/sympathy for their 'opponents' - yes, Independence would have still been declared after the electoral 'victory' but with, I imagine, a fraction of the support.

It makes it much easier to make the argument of oppression when the world has just seen Spanish police clubbing innocent protestors and old ladies.

NornIrishAddick

It is profoundly depressing to look look at how both sides have acted over the "referendum".

Whilst the Guardia Civil have a well-deserved reputation for heavy-handedness, in this regard they are no worse that many National/federal police institutions worldwide (State Troopers, for example, in the US can be very intimidating).

The Catalan authorities went in to the weekend with a cavalier disregard for the well-being of their supporters, to my mind, it is clear that they wanted confrontation - which is why they were seeking to use schools (state assets?) as polling stations. They knew that the central government could never allow the poll to go ahead in the format intended and should have been aware of the likely outcome of riot police being sent in to remove protestors and ballot boxes (anyone remember policing of environmental protestors in the 1980s and 1990s in England, to say nothing of the Miners' strike?).

The Spanish Government should also have been aware of the likely outcome, however, and the failure to manage the situation well was to be expected, they were in a no win situation from the beginning. That said, they have played a bad hand ineptly.

hoof_it_up_to_benty

NornIrishAddick said:

It is profoundly depressing to look look at how both sides have acted over the "referendum".

Whilst the Guardia Civil have a well-deserved reputation for heavy-handedness, in this regard they are no worse that many National/federal police institutions worldwide (State Troopers, for example, in the US can be very intimidating).

The Catalan authorities went in to the weekend with a cavalier disregard for the well-being of their supporters, to my mind, it is clear that they wanted confrontation - which is why they were seeking to use schools (state assets?) as polling stations. They knew that the central government could never allow the poll to go ahead in the format intended and should have been aware of the likely outcome of riot police being sent in to remove protestors and ballot boxes (anyone remember policing of environmental protestors in the 1980s and 1990s in England, to say nothing of the Miners' strike?).

The Spanish Government should also have been aware of the likely outcome, however, and the failure to manage the situation well was to be expected, they were in a no win situation from the beginning. That said, they have played a bad hand ineptly.

Both sides had an agenda and the pro independence lobby have been handed a major propaganda coup by central government. The Spanish Civil War and the actions of Franco are not that distant a memory and the last few days will inevitably be used to stir up old divisions.

I don't know enough about the motives of those seeking independence but they've certainly been given a major boost over the weekend.

cfgs

NornIrishAddick said:

It is profoundly depressing to look look at how both sides have acted over the "referendum".

Whilst the Guardia Civil have a well-deserved reputation for heavy-handedness, in this regard they are no worse that many National/federal police institutions worldwide (State Troopers, for example, in the US can be very intimidating).

The Catalan authorities went in to the weekend with a cavalier disregard for the well-being of their supporters, to my mind, it is clear that they wanted confrontation - which is why they were seeking to use schools (state assets?) as polling stations. They knew that the central government could never allow the poll to go ahead in the format intended and should have been aware of the likely outcome of riot police being sent in to remove protestors and ballot boxes (anyone remember policing of environmental protestors in the 1980s and 1990s in England, to say nothing of the Miners' strike?).

The Spanish Government should also have been aware of the likely outcome, however, and the failure to manage the situation well was to be expected, they were in a no win situation from the beginning. That said, they have played a bad hand ineptly.

To a certain extent the Catalan leaders disrespected the safety of their citizens but what normal person would have expected how aggressive the response would be? If you had told me what had occurred without me having access to the video evidence provided by the BBC etc I would have laughed at you. A normal western democracy doesn't behave this way.

Europe has to act as these kind of actions were the start of the breakdown of Yugoslavia and history tells us that evil and insanity needs no encouragement.

hoof_it_up_to_benty

cfgs said:

NornIrishAddick said:

It is profoundly depressing to look look at how both sides have acted over the "referendum".

Whilst the Guardia Civil have a well-deserved reputation for heavy-handedness, in this regard they are no worse that many National/federal police institutions worldwide (State Troopers, for example, in the US can be very intimidating).

The Catalan authorities went in to the weekend with a cavalier disregard for the well-being of their supporters, to my mind, it is clear that they wanted confrontation - which is why they were seeking to use schools (state assets?) as polling stations. They knew that the central government could never allow the poll to go ahead in the format intended and should have been aware of the likely outcome of riot police being sent in to remove protestors and ballot boxes (anyone remember policing of environmental protestors in the 1980s and 1990s in England, to say nothing of the Miners' strike?).

The Spanish Government should also have been aware of the likely outcome, however, and the failure to manage the situation well was to be expected, they were in a no win situation from the beginning. That said, they have played a bad hand ineptly.

To a certain extent the Catalan leaders disrespected the safety of their citizens but what normal person would have expected how aggressive the response would be? If you had told me what had occurred without me having access to the video evidence provided by the BBC etc I would have laughed at you. A normal western democracy doesn't behave this way.

Europe has to act as these kind of actions were the start of the breakdown of Yugoslavia and history tells us that evil and insanity needs no encouragement.

There is no easy solution now - the independence movement are firmly in control. Not sure where this will lead?

Goonerhater

many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty.
I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.

Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.

As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote

ken_shabby

Stu_of_Kunming said:

ken_shabby said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

i_b_b_o_r_g said:

Following Ken's post and hearing what they said on the news re. people being encouraged to just get out there and cast their vote at any polling station, my opinion has been further enhanced that the people have been played against the ob and central government by Puigdemont and Jonqueras. To be clear again, I'm not making any excuse whatsoever for the police here, but I personally think the separatist leaders knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what would happen. As a result, I'd say they now have the attention, and probably sympathy, of a lot more people around the world than what they had this time last week.

Of course they knew what they were doing, it begs the question what the F we're the government thinking walking into that trap.

Should have let the ref. happen and just told em it was meaningless afterwards. They've played right into their hands on this one.

I think you are right about the referéndum - it would have avoided the injuries and bloodshed and been much less damaging image wise just to let them have their fun and ignore it afterwards. However, we would basically be in the same place this morning - the Independence movement would have won, and announce Independence within 48 hours, At some point the government in Madrid were going to wake up and block this - they still will, so while it would have avoided yesterdays appalling scenes, it would have left us roughly where we are now anyway.
There's no ignoring a section of your country that is preparing to unilaterally break away.

By roughly where we are, you mean in a totally different place, all they have achieved is to galvanize more support/sympathy for their 'opponents' - yes, Independence would have still been declared after the electoral 'victory' but with, I imagine, a fraction of the support.

It makes it much easier to make the argument of oppression when the world has just seen Spanish police clubbing innocent protestors and old ladies.

They will certainly have gained some support by this - its an utterly 'us and them' situation. However, the support for Independence hasn't been a fraction for decades. It was around 43% in 2014 and judging by the turnout and result yesterday, it's roughly at the same level. How many are on the middle ground and might 'swing' against Spain is a huge question now, as the obvious way out of this mess without some sort of insurrection would be a properly agreed referéndum. I don't see that gaining much ground in Madrid this morning which is why I think things will get worse short term.

se9addick

Goonerhater said:

many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty.
I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.

Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.

As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote

Fantastic shoehorning there!

i_b_b_o_r_g

cfgs said:

NornIrishAddick said:

It is profoundly depressing to look look at how both sides have acted over the "referendum".

Whilst the Guardia Civil have a well-deserved reputation for heavy-handedness, in this regard they are no worse that many National/federal police institutions worldwide (State Troopers, for example, in the US can be very intimidating).

The Catalan authorities went in to the weekend with a cavalier disregard for the well-being of their supporters, to my mind, it is clear that they wanted confrontation - which is why they were seeking to use schools (state assets?) as polling stations. They knew that the central government could never allow the poll to go ahead in the format intended and should have been aware of the likely outcome of riot police being sent in to remove protestors and ballot boxes (anyone remember policing of environmental protestors in the 1980s and 1990s in England, to say nothing of the Miners' strike?).

The Spanish Government should also have been aware of the likely outcome, however, and the failure to manage the situation well was to be expected, they were in a no win situation from the beginning. That said, they have played a bad hand ineptly.

To a certain extent the Catalan leaders disrespected the safety of their citizens but what normal person would have expected how aggressive the response would be? If you had told me what had occurred without me having access to the video evidence provided by the BBC etc I would have laughed at you. A normal western democracy doesn't behave this way.

Europe has to act as these kind of actions were the start of the breakdown of Yugoslavia and history tells us that evil and insanity needs no encouragement.

The Catalan leaders for a start

Red_in_SE8

Goonerhater said:

many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty.
I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.

Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.

As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote

Are you referring to the utter contempt for the 63% who did not vote for Brexit?

Stig

se9addick said:

Goonerhater said:

many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty.
I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.

Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.

As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote

Fantastic shoehorning there!

Quite simply amazing. I was hovering over the like button for most of that, and then the final half a sentence appeared out of nowhere completely unrelated to anything else.

Big_Bad_World

Red_in_SE8 said:

Goonerhater said:

many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty.
I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.

Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.

As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote

Are you referring to the utter contempt for the 63% who did not vote for Brexit?

68% of Germans didn't vote for Merkel. Does that constitute them being held in utter contempt?

se9addick

Stig said:

se9addick said:

Goonerhater said:

many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty.
I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.

Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.

As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote

Fantastic shoehorning there!

Quite simply amazing. I was hovering over the like button for most of that, and then the final half a sentence appeared out of nowhere completely unrelated to anything else.

Me too - there should be a "half-like" button

Stig

Big_Bad_World said:

Red_in_SE8 said:

Goonerhater said:

many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty.
I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.

Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.

As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote

Are you referring to the utter contempt for the 63% who did not vote for Brexit?

68% of Germans didn't vote for Merkel. Does that constitute them being held in utter contempt?

That's not a constitutional matter though, so the decision can be reversed at the next election. We are saddled forever by the result of an undemocratic vote.

i_b_b_o_r_g

se9addick said:

Stig said:

se9addick said:

Goonerhater said:

many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty.
I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.

Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.

As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote

Fantastic shoehorning there!

Quite simply amazing. I was hovering over the like button for most of that, and then the final half a sentence appeared out of nowhere completely unrelated to anything else.

Me too - there should be a "half-like" button

You know the rest

IT_Andy

Found it laughable that in a case of voting for independence, Catalonia’s sports minister suggested FCB could play in the premier league.
No policies have been properly thought through, especially being in the EU and would a national party (pro spain) be allowed in future elections. lunacy.

Red_in_SE8

Big_Bad_World said:

Red_in_SE8 said:

Goonerhater said:

many years ago as a TA Para we were told The Paras have no royal prefix because we would be used on the streets in the event of major civil unrest.If/when this went wrong it would reflect only on The Paras and not royalty.
I have no idea if true as Charlie is the C in C of the para reg,but i do remember it was Paras standing on the othr side of the fences behind plod aat Greenham Common ---which of course was a US air base.

Thanks to the few on here for explaining the background too the events in Spain.

As a believer in democracy its painful to see plods reaction in Spain as is the utter contempt for our vote on Europe and the continued daily asualt on that vote

Are you referring to the utter contempt for the 63% who did not vote for Brexit?

68% of Germans didn't vote for Merkel. Does that constitute them being held in utter contempt?

If Merkel was able to form a government without the support of some of the parties that the 68% voted for then yes, that would be showing contempt for the 68%. But that is not the case.

stevexreeve

Until relatively recently the Spanish suffered terrorism from Basque separatists which was, in many ways, even nastier then we have become used to in the rest of Europe. I'm sure this must have an influence on the way the Spanish police and the general population react to similar movements.