Bitcoins have value because they are useful as a form of money. Bitcoin has the characteristics of money (durability, portability, fungibility, scarcity, divisibility, and recognizability) based on the properties of mathematics rather than relying on physical properties (like gold and silver) or trust in central authorities (like fiat currencies). In short, Bitcoin is backed by mathematics. With these attributes, all that is required for a form of money to hold value is trust and adoption. In the case of Bitcoin, this can be measured by its growing base of users, merchants, and startups. As with all currency, bitcoin's value comes only and directly from people willing to accept them as payment.
Bitcoin has no additional value as a form of money than a £10 note. If you put a £10 note on eBay how much more than £10 would you get because it is a "useful form of money"? A dim Ebayer might give you £12, but most people would not pay anyone for a £10 note because they get them for free when they provide services like, work. When you get paid in Bitcoins why would you want to buy them if you get them for free as shown in your salary slip? If i need more money I don't go and pay £12 for a £10 note unless i think another dim wit will buy it off me for £15.
A fundamental characteristic of money is that it holds its value, as the article points out. How does that square with volatility on the scale of Bitcoins? Bitcoin will not display that characteristic of holding value until its price reflects its intrinsic value - zero - which ensures that the same number of Bitcoins will cover the mortgage next month as well as this month. Only the mortgage interest rate might change not the value of your Bitcoin as well.
Bitcoin is compared to gold, but you have the same problems with bitcoin as you would have if gold became a currency. It's supply cannot be controlled to meet demand for the currency when economic activity changes so demand and supply creates unmanageable volatility in the price of goods and services.
A bubble is defined as Market Price - Intrinsic Value. As intrinsic value is zero the price of Bitcoin is 100% bubble. The current price for a Bitcoin is not based on any scientific exchange rate analysis because there are no fundamental economic forces that pin down the relative price of two intrinsically worthless objects - a Bitcoin and a £10 note.
Good luck to those who hope to make some money while the bubble exists, but no pretence please that Bitcoin has any intrinsic value to justify the exchange rate.
No one has a clue how this will end up, but many new innovations came out of financial disasters when the mistakes and flaws become clear and a new workable system is created. No doubt we will arrive at a regulated crypto currency system that works, but can't see it being much different to a form of online banking that cuts out banks with us using a crypto account instead of a bank current account.
|Thanks Dipps, my (simple) thoughts at the moment are its (almost) a gamble, in a gamble you win or lose, however, in terms of Bitcoins, there appears to still be a pent up 3rd world (or was 3 world) demand to buy into this sort of stuff. I think if you stick to the simple gambling principle of only betting what you can lose then well, lets see how far it can go. My thoughts are that if i put 1k in today and next week its worth 2k, then i'm going to cash-in my 1k original stake and let the rest ride the wave. That way i havnt lost a cent - it might be a very simplistic way of looking at it that i might tweak as time goes on ! What do you think?!
Bitcoins have value because they are useful as a form of money. Bitcoin has the characteristics of money (durability, portability, fungibility, scarcity, divisibility, and recognizability) based on the properties of mathematics rather than relying on physical properties (like gold and silver) or trust in central authorities (like fiat currencies). In short, Bitcoin is backed by mathematics. With these attributes, all that is required for a form of money to hold value is trust and adoption. In the case of Bitcoin, this can be measured by its growing base of users, merchants, and startups. As with all currency, bitcoin's value comes only and directly from people willing to accept them as payment.
Bitcoin has no additional value as a form of money than a £10 note. If you put a £10 note on eBay how much more than £10 would you get because it is a "useful form of money"? A dim Ebayer might give you £12, but most people would not pay anyone for a £10 note because they get them for free when they provide services like, work. When you get paid in Bitcoins why would you want to buy them if you get them for free as shown in your salary slip? If i need more money I don't go and pay £12 for a £10 note unless i think another dim wit will buy it off me for £15.
A fundamental characteristic of money is that it holds its value, as the article points out. How does that square with volatility on the scale of Bitcoins? Bitcoin will not display that characteristic of holding value until its price reflects its intrinsic value - zero - which ensures that the same number of Bitcoins will cover the mortgage next month as well as this month. Only the mortgage interest rate might change not the value of your Bitcoin as well.
Bitcoin is compared to gold, but you have the same problems with bitcoin as you would have if gold became a currency. It's supply cannot be controlled to meet demand for the currency when economic activity changes so demand and supply creates unmanageable volatility in the price of goods and services.
A bubble is defined as Market Price - Intrinsic Value. As intrinsic value is zero the price of Bitcoin is 100% bubble. The current price for a Bitcoin is not based on any scientific exchange rate analysis because there are no fundamental economic forces that pin down the relative price of two intrinsically worthless objects - a Bitcoin and a £10 note.
Good luck to those who hope to make some money while the bubble exists, but no pretence please that Bitcoin has any intrinsic value to justify the exchange rate.
No one has a clue how this will end up, but many new innovations came out of financial disasters when the mistakes and flaws become clear and a new workable system is created. No doubt we will arrive at a regulated crypto currency system that works, but can't see it being much different to a form of online banking that cuts out banks with us using a crypto account instead of a bank current account.
Everything you just posted is based on fundamental misunderstanding of bitcoin and cryptocurrency. I’d recommend doing more reading on the matter. Is gold a bubble because it’s just a rock? The idea of crypto currencies being “regulated” is neigh on impossible. I might have time over the weekend to correct you, but for now that’s what I’ll say
Well, tried to set up a Coinbase account yesterday evening and scanned my driving licence for ID verification. Still waiting for confirmation. There's a note on the website that indicates they are having processing trouble. Looks a bit amateurish under the fresh funky bonnet...as (e.g. @The_President ) others have said, put in only what you are ready to say bye bye to.
It's not an automated service, AFAIK, someone needs to physically check the documents.
Well I now ( nearly 24 hours later just got a mail saying they cant verify my document and have to try again.
I read an article from Motley Fool suggesting that for those of us who cant get their heads around what we'd be investing in, we might be better investing in shares of companies that will get into this stuff. I can post it if anyone is interested. But most of the companies named were the tech giants such as Microsoft and Alphabet. There was an investment fund in the list. Polar something..
Meanwhile Coinbase have repeated their email saying they cannot verify my details. I would love to mail them asking how exactly they "verify" my driving licence, but one cannot mail them.
I'm not saying it's all bollocks, I think @kentaddick has done a fantastic job on this thread and hope he will keep on doing so, but this is an example of the truth that if you dip into this pool you are very much on your own, so be careful peeps. And congrats to those who have made money already.
Bitcoins have value because they are useful as a form of money. Bitcoin has the characteristics of money (durability, portability, fungibility, scarcity, divisibility, and recognizability) based on the properties of mathematics rather than relying on physical properties (like gold and silver) or trust in central authorities (like fiat currencies). In short, Bitcoin is backed by mathematics. With these attributes, all that is required for a form of money to hold value is trust and adoption. In the case of Bitcoin, this can be measured by its growing base of users, merchants, and startups. As with all currency, bitcoin's value comes only and directly from people willing to accept them as payment.
Bitcoin has no additional value as a form of money than a £10 note. If you put a £10 note on eBay how much more than £10 would you get because it is a "useful form of money"? A dim Ebayer might give you £12, but most people would not pay anyone for a £10 note because they get them for free when they provide services like, work. When you get paid in Bitcoins why would you want to buy them if you get them for free as shown in your salary slip? If i need more money I don't go and pay £12 for a £10 note unless i think another dim wit will buy it off me for £15.
A fundamental characteristic of money is that it holds its value, as the article points out. How does that square with volatility on the scale of Bitcoins? Bitcoin will not display that characteristic of holding value until its price reflects its intrinsic value - zero - which ensures that the same number of Bitcoins will cover the mortgage next month as well as this month. Only the mortgage interest rate might change not the value of your Bitcoin as well.
Bitcoin is compared to gold, but you have the same problems with bitcoin as you would have if gold became a currency. It's supply cannot be controlled to meet demand for the currency when economic activity changes so demand and supply creates unmanageable volatility in the price of goods and services.
A bubble is defined as Market Price - Intrinsic Value. As intrinsic value is zero the price of Bitcoin is 100% bubble. The current price for a Bitcoin is not based on any scientific exchange rate analysis because there are no fundamental economic forces that pin down the relative price of two intrinsically worthless objects - a Bitcoin and a £10 note.
Good luck to those who hope to make some money while the bubble exists, but no pretence please that Bitcoin has any intrinsic value to justify the exchange rate.
No one has a clue how this will end up, but many new innovations came out of financial disasters when the mistakes and flaws become clear and a new workable system is created. No doubt we will arrive at a regulated crypto currency system that works, but can't see it being much different to a form of online banking that cuts out banks with us using a crypto account instead of a bank current account.
Everything you just posted is based on fundamental misunderstanding of bitcoin and cryptocurrency. I’d recommend doing more reading on the matter. Is gold a bubble because it’s just a rock? The idea of crypto currencies being “regulated” is neigh on impossible. I might have time over the weekend to correct you, but for now that’s what I’ll say
I have an unfortunate trait of cynicism that makes me wary of accepting new ideas that require me to suspend belief in the realities I currrntly experience. My misunderstandings are there to be challenged and when I have evidence that I must change my view I will have no problem doing so.
My experience in the world of investment tells me that fundamental rules never change, only the imagination in how to make money by harnessing the irrational decision making process when we invest.
The price of gold is indeed mostly bubble but it sustains the bubble through confidence in the ability to exchange for any other commodity, it has optimum liquidity. That in itself is intrinsic value. Is gold a currency - no - it is a commodity. The gold standard rendered gold a currency but it has been abandoned because all the gold ended up being owned by the US, and the dollar now replaces gold. It’s the finite supply of gold or crypto currency that makes it unable to function as a currency without causing economic disruption and inflationary and deflationary cycles.
Is Bitcoin a currency or a commodity? It is a commodity in my view. Does it have intrinsic value - yes - if certain goods and services can only be acquired through exchange of Bitcoin credits like illegal activities and goods. If it can acquire all goods and services then its intrinsic value evaporates.
Can Bitcoin become universal de-materialised currency - yes but not if it is also a commodity with intrinsic value.
So when someone can show me how a commodity with intrinsic value and therefore volatile, can also be a trusted currency I am willing to change my mind. Just telling me to read and believe someone’s convictions based on nothing but conviction doesn’t get past me I’m afraid.
Well, tried to set up a Coinbase account yesterday evening and scanned my driving licence for ID verification. Still waiting for confirmation. There's a note on the website that indicates they are having processing trouble. Looks a bit amateurish under the fresh funky bonnet...as (e.g. @The_President ) others have said, put in only what you are ready to say bye bye to.
Did the same thing yesterday and eventually got an email saying FAILED. Tried again with my passport and was almost instantly accepted!
Well, tried to set up a Coinbase account yesterday evening and scanned my driving licence for ID verification. Still waiting for confirmation. There's a note on the website that indicates they are having processing trouble. Looks a bit amateurish under the fresh funky bonnet...as (e.g. @The_President ) others have said, put in only what you are ready to say bye bye to.
Did the same thing yesterday and eventually got an email saying FAILED. Tried again with my passport and was almost instantly accepted!
Hmm. And I wonder what they do with all this data that they gather, including the stuff that remains "unverified" .
Also, more prosaically, why is Coinbase insisting that I would have to convert into euros when sending it money? I cannot see any setting to change that choice. It is an American company, and I am registering as UK based, so I would incur a currency conversion charge.
Well, tried to set up a Coinbase account yesterday evening and scanned my driving licence for ID verification. Still waiting for confirmation. There's a note on the website that indicates they are having processing trouble. Looks a bit amateurish under the fresh funky bonnet...as (e.g. @The_President ) others have said, put in only what you are ready to say bye bye to.
Did the same thing yesterday and eventually got an email saying FAILED. Tried again with my passport and was almost instantly accepted!
So, to recap: you've just given all your passport details to an utterly unregulated business that employs less people than your local McDonald's; you know nothing about them at all; English law won't apply because they are outside the jurisdiction; they deal in make-believe currencies; and you seem pleased. Is that right?
Me? I've just written to The Ferengi Alliance and asked very nicely if I can have some gold-pressed latinum.
All this crypto talk has made me find out from my 13 year old son in Cape Town that he also has an interest in Bitcoin etc, and i have decided, primarily as a way of us having a common contact/discussion point to give him a challenge of investing 1000 ZAR (about 60 quid) a month with a goal of getting to 30000 ZAR by end of year - and then we can all afford to go on a skiing holiday together.A tough ask, but he says he thinks he can do it - the confidence of youth !
|Thanks Dipps, my (simple) thoughts at the moment are its (almost) a gamble, in a gamble you win or lose, however, in terms of Bitcoins, there appears to still be a pent up 3rd world (or was 3 world) demand to buy into this sort of stuff. I think if you stick to the simple gambling principle of only betting what you can lose then well, lets see how far it can go. My thoughts are that if i put 1k in today and next week its worth 2k, then i'm going to cash-in my 1k original stake and let the rest ride the wave. That way i havnt lost a cent - it might be a very simplistic way of looking at it that i might tweak as time goes on ! What do you think?!
Play with your winnings and you can’t lose, only way I would make a Bitcoin punt. I went through the motions of setting up a Bitcoin wallet years ago to see what it was all about and can’t recall if I ever funded it. I might be able to buy Charlton if I can find the account
All this crypto talk has made me find out from my 13 year old son in Cape Town that he also has an interest in Bitcoin etc, and i have decided, primarily as a way of us having a common contact/discussion point to give him a challenge of investing 1000 ZAR (about 60 quid) a month with a goal of getting to 30000 ZAR by end of year - and then we can all afford to go on a skiing holiday together.A tough ask, but he says he thinks he can do it - the confidence of youth !
I’m only 26, I can afford to put in some money and lose it, i can see if you were a bit older you’d be wary of it. It would take me years and years to get together a deposit to get a mortgage, my aim with crypto is to be able to have a decent deposit, added to my own savings in ISA’s that will hopefully mean I would move in with a significant share of the property already paid off and mine. Security.
I don’t particularly want to get into a philosophical debate about what is money really (which is what bitcoin was founded on really, read the white paper on it for more reading).
Also, this thread is more about cryptos, ethereum, Neo and in the next few months, Vechain are cryptos with real world usage and value based on digital contracts and storage of data. That’s incredibly secure. There’s a bitcoin thread where you can add your views
As for Coinbase, it really is a piece of shit and I’ll avoid it like the plague, the only time I use it is to pay money in every so often if I’ve got a bit left over after the end of the month after rent, savings, food, nights out etc. Then straight out of gdax to binance.
I know that Coinbase is effectually the trading platform, but what is the purpose of Gdax and Binance ? Forgive my ignorance btw !
It's the other way round really. Coinbase makes it easy to convert fiat to eth/btc, Gdax is a coinbases sister site which I think is more of a trading platform, Binance is a fully fledged trading platform with many more currencies on it.
If you put your money into Coinbase you can transfer to Gdax and then to binance to avoid fees that occur when transfering from coinbase to binance.
I know that Coinbase is effectually the trading platform, but what is the purpose of Gdax and Binance ? Forgive my ignorance btw !
Gdax is owned by Coinbase, you can access your Coinbase wallet (in Layman’s, your account) and send money from your Coinbase wallet to your binance or any other wallet without having to pay the extortionate transaction fees Coinbase put on you.
Binance is a crypto trading site, so you can buy a lot of different cryptos using the bitcoin you’ve transferred over from your Coinbase/gdax account.
Eventually I may look to get my binance crypto out of binance to a wallet on my computer/memory stick so it’s far more secure. Plus there’s the saying in crypto “if you don’t have the keys, you don’t own the coin”, but binance is pretty secure, especially if you have 2 factor authentication. So for now I’ll leave it there.
Use ETH to transfer to binance, fees are cheaper than using bitcoin
And it’s faster!
For some reason binance just tells me to transfer bitcoin, how can I get round this? Just says to only transfer bitcoin or what I transfer will be lost
Ok so if I fancy s little dabble using my iPhone what app should I be using?
Bit panda doesn’t seem to have an app, but Coinbase does. I’d say start off with bit panda on desktop, set up a binance account, transfer your crypto to binance wallet and download the binance app (you have to give special permission in your settings)
“The first phase of this partnership will last for 2 years, to be extended at a later date. Importantly, if this pilot goes as planned and successful, the government of Hubei will recommend VeChain Thor Digital publication tracking solutions to The State Administration of Press, Publication, Radio, Film and Television of the People’s Republic of China (SAPPRFT).”
Essentially Vechain could be the solution to film piracy.
Well, tried to set up a Coinbase account yesterday evening and scanned my driving licence for ID verification. Still waiting for confirmation. There's a note on the website that indicates they are having processing trouble. Looks a bit amateurish under the fresh funky bonnet...as (e.g. @The_President ) others have said, put in only what you are ready to say bye bye to.
Did the same thing yesterday and eventually got an email saying FAILED. Tried again with my passport and was almost instantly accepted!
So, to recap: you've just given all your passport details to an utterly unregulated business that employs less people than your local McDonald's; you know nothing about them at all; English law won't apply because they are outside the jurisdiction; they deal in make-believe currencies; and you seem pleased. Is that right?
Me? I've just written to The Ferengi Alliance and asked very nicely if I can have some gold-pressed latinum.
I did have a chuckle, but just in case anyone is worried about providing their details to Coinbase... it's not quite as scary as it sounds.
It's worth remembering that Coinbase have managed to get some pretty big VC firms behind them, and for the type of money that they were seeking, you can be sure as hell that they will have had to jump through various hoops and have been subjected to different audits. Despite the stereotypes around venture capitalists, they do their due diligence and are keen to avoid legal issues in their investments.
Further to that, they're regulated where possible - i.e they've been approved by the financial services regulatory body in New York (DFS). I believe NY is one of the only regions that currently regulates crypto transactions, so it's difficult to ask them to adhere to regulatory procedure elsewhere! (They are licensed to transmit money in many US states though - https://www.coinbase.com/legal/licenses)
It's worth pointing out that they've managed to poach senior staff (we're talking senior management/C-level) from Facebook too; which means they don't lack the resources to focus on business critical areas, and are keen to make the correct appointments for future growth.
All in all though, it's worth being skeptical with regards to security at the moment. As interest is peaking, so is the opportunity for people to take advantage of those eager to get involved. Especially as many of the larger exchanges are limiting new sign-ups due to scalability issues.
Comments
A fundamental characteristic of money is that it holds its value, as the article points out. How does that square with volatility on the scale of Bitcoins? Bitcoin will not display that characteristic of holding value until its price reflects its intrinsic value - zero - which ensures that the same number of Bitcoins will cover the mortgage next month as well as this month. Only the mortgage interest rate might change not the value of your Bitcoin as well.
Bitcoin is compared to gold, but you have the same problems with bitcoin as you would have if gold became a currency. It's supply cannot be controlled to meet demand for the currency when economic activity changes so demand and supply creates unmanageable volatility in the price of goods and services.
A bubble is defined as Market Price - Intrinsic Value. As intrinsic value is zero the price of Bitcoin is 100% bubble. The current price for a Bitcoin is not based on any scientific exchange rate analysis because there are no fundamental economic forces that pin down the relative price of two intrinsically worthless objects - a Bitcoin and a £10 note.
Good luck to those who hope to make some money while the bubble exists, but no pretence please that Bitcoin has any intrinsic value to justify the exchange rate.
No one has a clue how this will end up, but many new innovations came out of financial disasters when the mistakes and flaws become clear and a new workable system is created. No doubt we will arrive at a regulated crypto currency system that works, but can't see it being much different to a form of online banking that cuts out banks with us using a crypto account instead of a bank current account.
My thoughts are that if i put 1k in today and next week its worth 2k, then i'm going to cash-in my 1k original stake and let the rest ride the wave. That way i havnt lost a cent - it might be a very simplistic way of looking at it that i might tweak as time goes on !
What do you think?!
Meanwhile Coinbase have repeated their email saying they cannot verify my details. I would love to mail them asking how exactly they "verify" my driving licence, but one cannot mail them.
I'm not saying it's all bollocks, I think @kentaddick has done a fantastic job on this thread and hope he will keep on doing so, but this is an example of the truth that if you dip into this pool you are very much on your own, so be careful peeps. And congrats to those who have made money already.
Good thread so far and I tend to agree with what Dippenhall wrote, but like Prague have enjoyed what kentaddick has written
I wonder what Clarence Beeks would’ve made of all this
My experience in the world of investment tells me that fundamental rules never change, only the imagination in how to make money by harnessing the irrational decision making process when we invest.
The price of gold is indeed mostly bubble but it sustains the bubble through confidence in the ability to exchange for any other commodity, it has optimum liquidity. That in itself is intrinsic value. Is gold a currency - no - it is a commodity. The gold standard rendered gold a currency but it has been abandoned because all the gold ended up being owned by the US, and the dollar now replaces gold. It’s the finite supply of gold or crypto currency that makes it unable to function as a currency without causing economic disruption and inflationary and deflationary cycles.
Is Bitcoin a currency or a commodity? It is a commodity in my view. Does it have intrinsic value - yes - if certain goods and services can only be acquired through exchange of Bitcoin credits like illegal activities and goods. If it can acquire all goods and services then its intrinsic value evaporates.
Can Bitcoin become universal de-materialised currency - yes but not if it is also a commodity with intrinsic value.
So when someone can show me how a commodity with intrinsic value and therefore volatile, can also be a trusted currency I am willing to change my mind. Just telling me to read and believe someone’s convictions based on nothing but conviction doesn’t get past me I’m afraid.
Also, more prosaically, why is Coinbase insisting that I would have to convert into euros when sending it money? I cannot see any setting to change that choice. It is an American company, and I am registering as UK based, so I would incur a currency conversion charge.
Me? I've just written to The Ferengi Alliance and asked very nicely if I can have some gold-pressed latinum.
I went through the motions of setting up a Bitcoin wallet years ago to see what it was all about and can’t recall if I ever funded it. I might be able to buy Charlton if I can find the account
I don’t particularly want to get into a philosophical debate about what is money really (which is what bitcoin was founded on really, read the white paper on it for more reading).
Also, this thread is more about cryptos, ethereum, Neo and in the next few months, Vechain are cryptos with real world usage and value based on digital contracts and storage of data. That’s incredibly secure. There’s a bitcoin thread where you can add your views
As for Coinbase, it really is a piece of shit and I’ll avoid it like the plague, the only time I use it is to pay money in every so often if I’ve got a bit left over after the end of the month after rent, savings, food, nights out etc. Then straight out of gdax to binance.
Forgive my ignorance btw !
If you put your money into Coinbase you can transfer to Gdax and then to binance to avoid fees that occur when transfering from coinbase to binance.
Binance is a crypto trading site, so you can buy a lot of different cryptos using the bitcoin you’ve transferred over from your Coinbase/gdax account.
Eventually I may look to get my binance crypto out of binance to a wallet on my computer/memory stick so it’s far more secure. Plus there’s the saying in crypto “if you don’t have the keys, you don’t own the coin”, but binance is pretty secure, especially if you have 2 factor authentication. So for now I’ll leave it there.
For some reason binance just tells me to transfer bitcoin, how can I get round this? Just says to only transfer bitcoin or what I transfer will be lost
This video explains it, just use ETH rather than BTC
Likely more 'dumb' questions later !
https://medium.com/@vechainofficial/vechain-adding-publication-industry-capability-and-partners-with-hubei-sanxin-cultural-media-ltd-817cd1770367
The most interesting part of the article:
“The first phase of this partnership will last for 2 years, to be extended at a later date. Importantly, if this pilot goes as planned and successful, the government of Hubei will recommend VeChain Thor Digital publication tracking solutions to The State Administration of Press, Publication, Radio, Film and Television of the People’s Republic of China (SAPPRFT).”
Essentially Vechain could be the solution to film piracy.
It's worth remembering that Coinbase have managed to get some pretty big VC firms behind them, and for the type of money that they were seeking, you can be sure as hell that they will have had to jump through various hoops and have been subjected to different audits. Despite the stereotypes around venture capitalists, they do their due diligence and are keen to avoid legal issues in their investments.
Further to that, they're regulated where possible - i.e they've been approved by the financial services regulatory body in New York (DFS). I believe NY is one of the only regions that currently regulates crypto transactions, so it's difficult to ask them to adhere to regulatory procedure elsewhere! (They are licensed to transmit money in many US states though - https://www.coinbase.com/legal/licenses)
It's worth pointing out that they've managed to poach senior staff (we're talking senior management/C-level) from Facebook too; which means they don't lack the resources to focus on business critical areas, and are keen to make the correct appointments for future growth.
All in all though, it's worth being skeptical with regards to security at the moment. As interest is peaking, so is the opportunity for people to take advantage of those eager to get involved. Especially as many of the larger exchanges are limiting new sign-ups due to scalability issues.
This is a legitimate crypto with a market cap of over a million bucks