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Grenfell Tower Enquiry
Comments
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Received a letter from our housing association to say they will be changing the cladding on our block of flats in the not to distant future. The block is 6 storey high and 5yrs old. We're on the 1st floor, so I've never been overly concerned about fires, but obviously they are concerned enough to change it! No idea if costs will be passed on to lease holders, but it makes you wonder how the new build passed safety tests in the first place?0
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If the cladding is being replaced because it is not fit for purpose rather than because it needs renewing due to age, reasonable wear and tear, I would think it unfair if leaseholders had to pay a share. Surely they have already done this and it is down to others to sort it out.0
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@MuttleyCAFC i would assume so too, but the housing association are always trying it on with extra charges that they magic out of thin air! Saw a report on the BBC recently where lease holders got bills for replacement cladding, so am a little concerned!
@Addickted we've had nothing through apart from a letter stating their intentions to change the cladding. So hopefully we wont get a bill. The housing association is Sanctuary. They are terrible in all honesty, so i have zero trust in them getting this done properly.0 -
London Fire Brigade's commissioner is to step down four months early in the wake of criticism over the service's response to the Grenfell fire.
Dany Cotton, 50, previously announced she was standing down from the London Fire Brigade (LFB) in April 2020.
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Wonder if she'll keep her £140k a year pension?0
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What happened at Grenfell was not down to her.Addickted said:Wonder if she'll keep her £140k a year pension?
It was down to the greedy bastards who signed of the sub standard cladding.
So hopefully she does.26 -
This.blackpool72 said:
What happened at Grenfell was not down to her.Addickted said:Wonder if she'll keep her £140k a year pension?
It was down to the greedy bastards who signed of the sub standard cladding.
So hopefully she does.2 -
Thrown under the bus.clive said:London Fire Brigade's commissioner is to step down four months early in the wake of criticism over the service's response to the Grenfell fire.
Dany Cotton, 50, previously announced she was standing down from the London Fire Brigade (LFB) in April 2020.
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Failed the residents of Grenfell that evening and has made a number of insensitive comments since. Surprised at those defending her.Wheresmeticket? said:
Thrown under the bus.clive said:London Fire Brigade's commissioner is to step down four months early in the wake of criticism over the service's response to the Grenfell fire.
Dany Cotton, 50, previously announced she was standing down from the London Fire Brigade (LFB) in April 2020.
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If his tactless contribution were worthy of defence, then why has Rees Mogg disappeared off of the face of the planet during an election campaign?Big_Bad_World said:snowinberlin said:
And yet you defended Rees MoggBig_Bad_World said:snowinberlin said:
Agreed, if people have personal spats maybe they can take it offline in a DM or other channelBournemouth Addick said:Not really the thread for this.
I wish you'd go and jump in the English Channel.
Wrong. I defended what he said and corrected those that claimed he'd uttered words that were never spoken.
He took their campaign in a direction they would never want to go since they want focus on the abstract concepts of Brexit and attacking political opponents rather than the reality of the lived experience fod millions of voters.
Many on here have pointed out both the rationale and success of stay put. And to advocate an alternative with the benefit of hindsight is both divisive and incredibly insensitive to the victims and their families.
There is no need to politicised the event further for people will have the opportunity to place their X next Thursday.1 -
Nice to read input from a specialist but your comment above was semantics. K&C TMO is a managing agent. Presumably employed by actual TMO, Grenfell Housing Association Ltd. The residents would have had perhaps two directors of this company, maybe attending an AGM.Addickted said:But Grenfell was run by a TMO, not a ' managing agent '. So your point in this context is irrelevant.
To suggest that residents chose cheaper, more dangerous cladding seems crass. Doubt any were aware of the decision nor would a S20 notice give them a choice on type of refurb, merely advise that works costing more than £500 were planned.0 -
Not exactly her fault though, was it? She didn't start the fire, fit the shit cladding or sign off on the sub-standard building work that made the building totally unsafe.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
Failed the residents of Grenfell that evening and has made a number of insensitive comments since. Surprised at those defending her.Wheresmeticket? said:
Thrown under the bus.clive said:London Fire Brigade's commissioner is to step down four months early in the wake of criticism over the service's response to the Grenfell fire.
Dany Cotton, 50, previously announced she was standing down from the London Fire Brigade (LFB) in April 2020.
The whole thing sounds like a disaster waiting to happen and the fire brigade are the ones expected to pick up the pieces, so suddenly it's their fault? Doesn't wash with me.
I'm sure that with the benefit of hindsight lots of people might do lots of things differently. Which is why hindsight is such a wonderful thing.
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Sadly the report criticising the building isn't out yet but I'm sure it will say the fire brigade faced an impossible situation. They are not wholly to blame for it.1
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Exactly right, the LFB did make mistakes and wrong decisions but based on assumptions they couldn't be expected to know were false. They followed their typical procedures and protocols in a very atypical situation, which is where the errors came from.Off_it said:
Not exactly her fault though, was it? She didn't start the fire, fit the shit cladding or sign off on the sub-standard building work that made the building totally unsafe.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
Failed the residents of Grenfell that evening and has made a number of insensitive comments since. Surprised at those defending her.Wheresmeticket? said:
Thrown under the bus.clive said:London Fire Brigade's commissioner is to step down four months early in the wake of criticism over the service's response to the Grenfell fire.
Dany Cotton, 50, previously announced she was standing down from the London Fire Brigade (LFB) in April 2020.
The whole thing sounds like a disaster waiting to happen and the fire brigade are the ones expected to pick up the pieces, so suddenly it's their fault? Doesn't wash with me.
I'm sure that with the benefit of hindsight lots of people might do lots of things differently. Which is why hindsight is such a wonderful thing.0 -
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/grenfell-tower-fire-one-year-one-kensington-a8397276.html
As Ross said, anyone commenting on this thread needs to read this.1 -
It's a very enlightening piece. Tries to be factual rather than emotive.harveys_gardener said:https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/grenfell-tower-fire-one-year-one-kensington-a8397276.html
As Ross said, anyone commenting on this thread needs to read this.
I saw someone claiming on the news today that because the fire brigade didn't put the fire out and didn't rescue all of the people they had "failed" the residents.
To be honest, whilst I completely understand the emotion over this terrible tragedy, I'm really starting to get more than a bit fed up with that sort of thing.2 -
The Fire Brigade are there to manage fjres - the leadership that evening was shambolic and adherence to the 'stay put' policy that evening cost a lot of lives.Off_it said:
Not exactly her fault though, was it? She didn't start the fire, fit the shit cladding or sign off on the sub-standard building work that made the building totally unsafe.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
Failed the residents of Grenfell that evening and has made a number of insensitive comments since. Surprised at those defending her.Wheresmeticket? said:
Thrown under the bus.clive said:London Fire Brigade's commissioner is to step down four months early in the wake of criticism over the service's response to the Grenfell fire.
Dany Cotton, 50, previously announced she was standing down from the London Fire Brigade (LFB) in April 2020.
The whole thing sounds like a disaster waiting to happen and the fire brigade are the ones expected to pick up the pieces, so suddenly it's their fault? Doesn't wash with me.
I'm sure that with the benefit of hindsight lots of people might do lots of things differently. Which is why hindsight is such a wonderful thing.
Dany Cotton has shown appalling insensitivity in some of her comments since the fire and shown reluctance to accept any of the shortcomings that the public inquiry has highlighted.
I'm unclear why the fire service are seen by some as above criticism?
The fire brigade are obviously not responsible for the cladding but they were responsible for managing the fire that evening. I'm unclear how anyone can argue that the leadership that evening was adequate.
Why is Dany Cotton being defended when she showed such poor leadership that evening and has seemed reluctant to accept any criticism since. I'm more concerned with those whose lives could have been saved rather than her reputation.
Individual firefighters showed great bravery but those managing them need to look at how things were managed that evening. If mistakes are made in a disaster they need to be acknowledged.
I'm unclear why the 'stay put' policy was persevered with given the fire integrity of the building had been compromised by the cladding. Those in charge should have acted more quickly - they're paid to make decisions.1 -
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I hope she does. Nothing but that poison dwarf Khan using her as a scapegoat. How long did it take for Hillsbourgh to get a full enquiry.?Addickted said:Wonder if she'll keep her £140k a year pension?2 -
Cladding gives off toxic gasses such as hydrogen cyanide amongst others. That could well be why the 'stay put' policy was persisted with in an attempt to buy time.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
The Fire Brigade are there to manage fjres - the leadership that evening was shambolic and adherence to the 'stay put' policy that evening cost a lot of lives.Off_it said:
Not exactly her fault though, was it? She didn't start the fire, fit the shit cladding or sign off on the sub-standard building work that made the building totally unsafe.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
Failed the residents of Grenfell that evening and has made a number of insensitive comments since. Surprised at those defending her.Wheresmeticket? said:
Thrown under the bus.clive said:London Fire Brigade's commissioner is to step down four months early in the wake of criticism over the service's response to the Grenfell fire.
Dany Cotton, 50, previously announced she was standing down from the London Fire Brigade (LFB) in April 2020.
The whole thing sounds like a disaster waiting to happen and the fire brigade are the ones expected to pick up the pieces, so suddenly it's their fault? Doesn't wash with me.
I'm sure that with the benefit of hindsight lots of people might do lots of things differently. Which is why hindsight is such a wonderful thing.
Dany Cotton has shown appalling insensitivity in some of her comments since the fire and shown reluctance to accept any of the shortcomings that the public inquiry has highlighted.
I'm unclear why the fire service are seen by some as above criticism?
The fire brigade are obviously not responsible for the cladding but they were responsible for managing the fire that evening. I'm unclear how anyone can argue that the leadership that evening was adequate.
Why is Dany Cotton being defended when she showed such poor leadership that evening and has seemed reluctant to accept any criticism since. I'm more concerned with those whose lives could have been saved rather than her reputation.
Individual firefighters showed great bravery but those managing them need to look at how things were managed that evening. If mistakes are made in a disaster they need to be acknowledged.
I'm unclear why the 'stay put' policy was persevered with given the fire integrity of the building had been compromised by the cladding. Those in charge should have acted more quickly - they're paid to make decisions.
People tragically died but even more may have died without the 'stay put' policy.
The London Fire Brigade are easy scapegoats for negligent politicians, both red and blue, and contractors.2 -
Yes, let’s tell everyone to evacuate so they enter smoke filled corridors and try to run down staircases not meant for mass evacuation whilst firefighters in BA with hoses are trying to go up. That’ll work.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
The Fire Brigade are there to manage fjres - the leadership that evening was shambolic and adherence to the 'stay put' policy that evening cost a lot of lives.Off_it said:
Not exactly her fault though, was it? She didn't start the fire, fit the shit cladding or sign off on the sub-standard building work that made the building totally unsafe.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
Failed the residents of Grenfell that evening and has made a number of insensitive comments since. Surprised at those defending her.Wheresmeticket? said:
Thrown under the bus.clive said:London Fire Brigade's commissioner is to step down four months early in the wake of criticism over the service's response to the Grenfell fire.
Dany Cotton, 50, previously announced she was standing down from the London Fire Brigade (LFB) in April 2020.
The whole thing sounds like a disaster waiting to happen and the fire brigade are the ones expected to pick up the pieces, so suddenly it's their fault? Doesn't wash with me.
I'm sure that with the benefit of hindsight lots of people might do lots of things differently. Which is why hindsight is such a wonderful thing.
Dany Cotton has shown appalling insensitivity in some of her comments since the fire and shown reluctance to accept any of the shortcomings that the public inquiry has highlighted.
I'm unclear why the fire service are seen by some as above criticism?
The fire brigade are obviously not responsible for the cladding but they were responsible for managing the fire that evening. I'm unclear how anyone can argue that the leadership that evening was adequate.
Why is Dany Cotton being defended when she showed such poor leadership that evening and has seemed reluctant to accept any criticism since. I'm more concerned with those whose lives could have been saved rather than her reputation.
Individual firefighters showed great bravery but those managing them need to look at how things were managed that evening. If mistakes are made in a disaster they need to be acknowledged.
I'm unclear why the 'stay put' policy was persevered with given the fire integrity of the building had been compromised by the cladding. Those in charge should have acted more quickly - they're paid to make decisions.
More people will have died.9 -
The stay put policy was a mistake. The question is, was it a mistake you can only reasonably learn from when it happens or could it have been learned from before from other similar fires. Then you have to aske the question, who is it that should have learned from them if you think that is the case. The policy certainly contributed to deaths, I don't think that is being argued. I don't know one way or the other, but her comments to the enquiry were insensitive and too defensive. I always feel when people are too defensive they have something to be defensive about but her conscience will know better than any of us one way or the other.0
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You really need to read this - https://www.lease-advice.org/files/2016/09/Major-Works-Leaseholder-English.pdfharveys_gardener said:
To suggest that residents chose cheaper, more dangerous cladding seems crass. Doubt any were aware of the decision nor would a S20 notice give them a choice on type of refurb, merely advise that works costing more than £500 were planned.Addickted said:But Grenfell was run by a TMO, not a ' managing agent '. So your point in this context is irrelevant.
The consultation process involves writing to leaseholders describing the proposed works, explaining why they are necessary and giving an estimate, or estimates, of the total cost of the works. The notice(s) should invite people to comment on the proposed works and estimate(s) within the following 30 days. In some circumstances, leaseholders can nominate a contractor from whom the landlord should try to obtain an estimate. If comments are received, the landlord must consider them and respond.
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Having gone through the Section 20 process for an entirely different set of works, what's supposed to happen in theory and what actually happens in practice aren't necessarily the same thing.
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On what basis was it a mistake? If it stopped more people dying on that awful night, it can hardly be described as a mistake.MuttleyCAFC said:The stay put policy was a mistake. The question is, was it a mistake you can only reasonably learn from when it happens or could it have been learned from before from other similar fires. Then you have to aske the question, who is it that should have learned from them if you think that is the case. The policy certainly contributed to deaths, I don't think that is being argued. I don't know one way or the other, but her comments to the enquiry were insensitive and too defensive. I always feel when people are too defensive they have something to be defensive about but her conscience will know better than any of us one way or the other.0 -
We from what I have read, it stopped people evacuating the building when they could have. I thought that was largely accepted. Of course the people giving the instruction at the time were not aware how the fire would spread.0
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Since 2014 over 5k high rise fires have occurred in London alone and the stay put policy in those has worked and saved hundreds of lives.
Grenfell was a building that failed it wasn't the advice given to stay put that failed.
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The advice was given without expecting the fire to spread as it did.0
