It was a terrible thing to say because the clear insinuation is that because Bowyer has not apologised publicly for his actions that he is either not sorry for what he did or that he still holds racist views.
The CAST bloke has no way of knowing if either of those things are true so should be keeping his comments to himself.
He then doubles down by saying he'd prefer a manager like Chris Powell, again clearly setting a white alleged racist in Bowyer against a sainted, universally respected black man.
Seems to me to be a classic case of virtue-signalling which would be fine on his own time but not when he is talking with his CAST hat on.
I was appalled at what Bowyer did all the way back then but it's twenty years ago and there is absolutely no reason to bring it up in the public domain now apart from gratuitous attention seeking.
Charlton managers are constantly compared to Chris Powell in one way or another. I don't agree with what was said in the context, but if we're going to blame people for comparing a Charlton manager to Chris Powell as a non sequitur, then we're going to need to look at pretty much everyone on this board, myself included.
No, we don't, different people are, quite rightly, held to different standards.
Do you know what? I haven't apologised for telling and laughing at jokes over the past 40 years that would today be seen as racist/sexist/homophobic etc.... And I doubt I ever will. Get over it!
It was a terrible thing to say because the clear insinuation is that because Bowyer has not apologised publicly for his actions that he is either not sorry for what he did or that he still holds racist views.
The CAST bloke has no way of knowing if either of those things are true so should be keeping his comments to himself.
He then doubles down by saying he'd prefer a manager like Chris Powell, again clearly setting a white alleged racist in Bowyer against a sainted, universally respected black man.
Seems to me to be a classic case of virtue-signalling which would be fine on his own time but not when he is talking with his CAST hat on.
I was appalled at what Bowyer did all the way back then but it's twenty years ago and there is absolutely no reason to bring it up in the public domain now apart from gratuitous attention seeking.
Charlton managers are constantly compared to Chris Powell in one way or another. I don't agree with what was said in the context, but if we're going to blame people for comparing a Charlton manager to Chris Powell as a non sequitur, then we're going to need to look at pretty much everyone on this board, myself included.
No, we don't, different people are, quite rightly, held to different standards.
So I definitely agree that different people should be held to different standards. But I think criticizing him for saying he wishes Chris Powell was the manager is over the top. On the Bowyer stuff, as I said, yeah fair enough. But with the Powell thing, I'd guess that most of us feel that way. Saying he wishes Chris Powell was our manager is literally the least controversial thing he could say apart from maybe "we play in red." But even then, we'll be playing in yellow on Saturday.
Do you know what? I haven't apologised for telling and laughing at jokes over the past 40 years that would today be seen as racist/sexist/homophobic etc.... And I doubt I ever will. Get over it!
Thought you might chip in with that type of comment.
He was never convicted of racism. Baring in mind he was with his black mate Duberry at the time of the incident and has had black mates all through his footballing career.
Not that he needs any of us to defend him.
More than one incident.
Regardless of what we might think of RW's comments, Bowyer's record is hardly smoke without fire. But it was a long time ago and he's not showing any signs of that guy at the moment
I have heard Bowyer is interested in taking on Ched Evans.
It was a terrible thing to say because the clear insinuation is that because Bowyer has not apologised publicly for his actions that he is either not sorry for what he did or that he still holds racist views.
The CAST bloke has no way of knowing if either of those things are true so should be keeping his comments to himself.
He then doubles down by saying he'd prefer a manager like Chris Powell, again clearly setting a white alleged racist in Bowyer against a sainted, universally respected black man.
Seems to me to be a classic case of virtue-signalling which would be fine on his own time but not when he is talking with his CAST hat on.
I was appalled at what Bowyer did all the way back then but it's twenty years ago and there is absolutely no reason to bring it up in the public domain now apart from gratuitous attention seeking.
Charlton managers are constantly compared to Chris Powell in one way or another. I don't agree with what was said in the context, but if we're going to blame people for comparing a Charlton manager to Chris Powell as a non sequitur, then we're going to need to look at pretty much everyone on this board, myself included.
No, we don't, different people are, quite rightly, held to different standards.
So I definitely agree that different people should be held to different standards. But I think criticizing him for saying he wishes Chris Powell was the manager is over the top. On the Bowyer stuff, as I said, yeah fair enough. But with the Powell thing, I'd guess that most of us feel that way. Saying he wishes Chris Powell was our manager is literally the least controversial thing he could say apart from maybe "we play in red." But even then, we'll be playing in yellow on Saturday.
It was the context. I'd rather have Messi than Lyle Taylor but if I was representing the Supporters in an interview and was asked about Taylor I'd be wishing him all the best in what could be a difficult season and talking him up not saying I'd rather have another player.
It was a terrible thing to say because the clear insinuation is that because Bowyer has not apologised publicly for his actions that he is either not sorry for what he did or that he still holds racist views.
The CAST bloke has no way of knowing if either of those things are true so should be keeping his comments to himself.
He then doubles down by saying he'd prefer a manager like Chris Powell, again clearly setting a white alleged racist in Bowyer against a sainted, universally respected black man.
Seems to me to be a classic case of virtue-signalling which would be fine on his own time but not when he is talking with his CAST hat on.
I was appalled at what Bowyer did all the way back then but it's twenty years ago and there is absolutely no reason to bring it up in the public domain now apart from gratuitous attention seeking.
Charlton managers are constantly compared to Chris Powell in one way or another. I don't agree with what was said in the context, but if we're going to blame people for comparing a Charlton manager to Chris Powell as a non sequitur, then we're going to need to look at pretty much everyone on this board, myself included.
No, we don't, different people are, quite rightly, held to different standards.
So I definitely agree that different people should be held to different standards. But I think criticizing him for saying he wishes Chris Powell was the manager is over the top. On the Bowyer stuff, as I said, yeah fair enough. But with the Powell thing, I'd guess that most of us feel that way. Saying he wishes Chris Powell was our manager is literally the least controversial thing he could say apart from maybe "we play in red." But even then, we'll be playing in yellow on Saturday.
It was the context. I'd rather have Messi than Lyle Taylor but if I was representing the Supporters in an interview and was asked about Taylor I'd be wishing him all the best in what could be a difficult season and talking him up not saying I'd rather have another player.
Fair enough. But to go from that to "Virtue Signalling" is a leap is the point I was trying to make.
It was a terrible thing to say because the clear insinuation is that because Bowyer has not apologised publicly for his actions that he is either not sorry for what he did or that he still holds racist views.
The CAST bloke has no way of knowing if either of those things are true so should be keeping his comments to himself.
He then doubles down by saying he'd prefer a manager like Chris Powell, again clearly setting a white alleged racist in Bowyer against a sainted, universally respected black man.
Seems to me to be a classic case of virtue-signalling which would be fine on his own time but not when he is talking with his CAST hat on.
I was appalled at what Bowyer did all the way back then but it's twenty years ago and there is absolutely no reason to bring it up in the public domain now apart from gratuitous attention seeking.
Charlton managers are constantly compared to Chris Powell in one way or another. I don't agree with what was said in the context, but if we're going to blame people for comparing a Charlton manager to Chris Powell as a non sequitur, then we're going to need to look at pretty much everyone on this board, myself included.
No, we don't, different people are, quite rightly, held to different standards.
So I definitely agree that different people should be held to different standards. But I think criticizing him for saying he wishes Chris Powell was the manager is over the top. On the Bowyer stuff, as I said, yeah fair enough. But with the Powell thing, I'd guess that most of us feel that way. Saying he wishes Chris Powell was our manager is literally the least controversial thing he could say apart from maybe "we play in red." But even then, we'll be playing in yellow on Saturday.
It was the context. I'd rather have Messi than Lyle Taylor but if I was representing the Supporters in an interview and was asked about Taylor I'd be wishing him all the best in what could be a difficult season and talking him up not saying I'd rather have another player.
Fair enough. But to go from that to "Virtue Signalling" is a leap is the point I was trying to make.
No you weren't, you were saying that it didn't matter that the head of our Supporters' Trust undermined our current manager by saying he would prefer someone else.
It was a terrible thing to say because the clear insinuation is that because Bowyer has not apologised publicly for his actions that he is either not sorry for what he did or that he still holds racist views.
The CAST bloke has no way of knowing if either of those things are true so should be keeping his comments to himself.
He then doubles down by saying he'd prefer a manager like Chris Powell, again clearly setting a white alleged racist in Bowyer against a sainted, universally respected black man.
Seems to me to be a classic case of virtue-signalling which would be fine on his own time but not when he is talking with his CAST hat on.
I was appalled at what Bowyer did all the way back then but it's twenty years ago and there is absolutely no reason to bring it up in the public domain now apart from gratuitous attention seeking.
Charlton managers are constantly compared to Chris Powell in one way or another. I don't agree with what was said in the context, but if we're going to blame people for comparing a Charlton manager to Chris Powell as a non sequitur, then we're going to need to look at pretty much everyone on this board, myself included.
No, we don't, different people are, quite rightly, held to different standards.
So I definitely agree that different people should be held to different standards. But I think criticizing him for saying he wishes Chris Powell was the manager is over the top. On the Bowyer stuff, as I said, yeah fair enough. But with the Powell thing, I'd guess that most of us feel that way. Saying he wishes Chris Powell was our manager is literally the least controversial thing he could say apart from maybe "we play in red." But even then, we'll be playing in yellow on Saturday.
It was the context. I'd rather have Messi than Lyle Taylor but if I was representing the Supporters in an interview and was asked about Taylor I'd be wishing him all the best in what could be a difficult season and talking him up not saying I'd rather have another player.
Fair enough. But to go from that to "Virtue Signalling" is a leap is the point I was trying to make.
No you weren't, you were saying that it didn't matter that the head of our Supporters' Trust undermined our current manager by saying he would prefer someone else.
No I wasn't, I was saying that bringing up Chris Powell in relation to the Charlton managerial position is not uncommon and not virtue signalling.
Richard is entitled to his own views but should remember that when representing the Supporters Trust he should balance his own views with those of the other members of the Trust. The fact that he volunteered this statement and the one on Jim Davidson suggests that he believes his personal views take precedence in the role. If the Supporters Trust members disagree with him they should vote against him in any contested election or take a "not in my name" stance and remove themselves from the membership.
Whilst I recognise that if we do not study history we are in danger of repeating it, we should also remember that many of the actions of our youth are regretable and judge people by what they are today, in comparison as to what they were then, or were reported as being then.
I have certainly grown older and I hope wiser over the years but have a question for you all:
What is worse doing something that was wrong in your youth or having it rubbed in your face years later when you have had chance to reflect and develop?
The pantheon of saints is full of reformed sinners starting with St Paul and the same ethos applies to virtually every religion. We should judge people on what they are today not what they did or were suggested to have done in their youth. That is not being an apologist for the past, more a promoter of the current. If in the current day they repeat their mistakes then, by all means, punish them for it.
Bowyer may have been a sinner in the past and I doubt that the Pope (not Nick) will ever put him forward for the sainthood in the current day, but his actions with the football club over the recent months suggest that he has developed into a decent enough person not to have his nose rubbed in it by someone who should know better.
Fair enough. But to go from that to "Virtue Signalling" is a leap is the point I was trying to make.
No you weren't, you were saying that it didn't matter that the head of our Supporters' Trust undermined our current manager by saying he would prefer someone else.
No I wasn't, I was saying that bringing up Chris Powell in relation to the Charlton managerial position is not uncommon and not virtue signalling.
So let's get this straight SDAddick, just how useful do you think it was at this stage of the season, under some of the most difficult circumstances that one can imagine, for our manager to hear from the Chair of the Supporters' Trust that he would prefer to see Chris Powell in the job?
what surprises me as well is that in his sixty years of supporting Charlton his worst moment supporting us was "the week in January 2016 when we lost 1-2 to Colchester in the FA Cup followed by 0-5 at Huddersfield on Tuesday and 0-6 at Hull."
I mean yeah it was shit but surely cant be up there as the worst moment in our history?
what surprises me as well is that in his sixty years of supporting Charlton his worst moment supporting us was "the week in January 2016 when we lost 1-2 to Colchester in the FA Cup followed by 0-5 at Huddersfield on Tuesday and 0-6 at Hull."
I mean yeah it was shit but surely cant be up there as the worst moment in our history?
Is Lee Bowyer the right man for the job on a permanent basis?
The question was not:
Is Lee Bowyer the right man for the job on a permanent basis (in the opinion of the members of the Charlton Athletic Supporters' Trust)?
Looking at RWs reply he appears to make it clear that the views expressed are his own. I don't read this reply as being voiced on behalf of CAST. Indeed, how could it?
There will be those in the CAST membership who might agree with these sentiments and those who don't but the reaction of some, voiced on this thread appears extreme to say the least.
At the top of Page 3 RW (Pico) has provided a response which has recognised that the LB of today would make different decisions/actions from those of his youth and he accepts that his comments were unnecessarily judgemental. He goes on to re-affirm that nothing of what he said was as a representative of CAST - the interview was not set up in that way.
That really should be enough shouldn't it? It is worth reflecting also that as an individual RW has been at the forefront of opposition to Duchatlet - leading the coffin march at The Valley, and having been heavily involved and in attendance at the Taxi for Roland event and the march through Sint Truiden.
Is it not time to draw a line under this one - nothing to be gained from beating ourselves up further IMO.
I have a lot of time for Richard and like him as a person - I'm actually the Returning Officer for the Trust elections this year at his request, as my membership has lapsed.
But he's definitely said the wrong thing here, and it's a shame that people are therefore going to tie this one comment to both the man and the Trust as a whole (which is also the wrong thing to do imo).
I have no idea what would have prompted him to say that and at the risk of sounding condescending, I thought he would have known better...
Since its inception, has there beena single contested election for a trust position?
I don't think so, but an independent arbiter (in this case me) still needs to head up an election management committee to abide by due process.
Comments
“At the moment”
What the fuck is wrong with people this week is it the heat
Have a word with yourselves seriously
Whilst I recognise that if we do not study history we are in danger of repeating it, we should also remember that many of the actions of our youth are regretable and judge people by what they are today, in comparison as to what they were then, or were reported as being then.
I have certainly grown older and I hope wiser over the years but have a question for you all:
What is worse doing something that was wrong in your youth or having it rubbed in your face years later when you have had chance to reflect and develop?
The pantheon of saints is full of reformed sinners starting with St Paul and the same ethos applies to virtually every religion. We should judge people on what they are today not what they did or were suggested to have done in their youth. That is not being an apologist for the past, more a promoter of the current. If in the current day they repeat their mistakes then, by all means, punish them for it.
Bowyer may have been a sinner in the past and I doubt that the Pope (not Nick) will ever put him forward for the sainthood in the current day, but his actions with the football club over the recent months suggest that he has developed into a decent enough person not to have his nose rubbed in it by someone who should know better.
Fair enough. But to go from that to "Virtue Signalling" is a leap is the point I was trying to make.
No you weren't, you were saying that it didn't matter that the head of our Supporters' Trust undermined our current manager by saying he would prefer someone else.
No I wasn't, I was saying that bringing up Chris Powell in relation to the Charlton managerial position is not uncommon and not virtue signalling.
So let's get this straight SDAddick, just how useful do you think it was at this stage of the season, under some of the most difficult circumstances that one can imagine, for our manager to hear from the Chair of the Supporters' Trust that he would prefer to see Chris Powell in the job?
I mean yeah it was shit but surely cant be up there as the worst moment in our history?
This is the question posed:
Is Lee Bowyer the right man for the job on a permanent basis?
The question was not:
Is Lee Bowyer the right man for the job on a permanent basis (in the opinion of the members of the Charlton Athletic Supporters' Trust)?
Looking at RWs reply he appears to make it clear that the views expressed are his own. I don't read this reply as being voiced on behalf of CAST. Indeed, how could it?
There will be those in the CAST membership who might agree with these sentiments and those who don't but the reaction of some, voiced on this thread appears extreme to say the least.
At the top of Page 3 RW (Pico) has provided a response which has recognised that the LB of today would make different decisions/actions from those of his youth and he accepts that his comments were unnecessarily judgemental. He goes on to re-affirm that nothing of what he said was as a representative of CAST - the interview was not set up in that way.
That really should be enough shouldn't it? It is worth reflecting also that as an individual RW has been at the forefront of opposition to Duchatlet - leading the coffin march at The Valley, and having been heavily involved and in attendance at the Taxi for Roland event and the march through Sint Truiden.
Is it not time to draw a line under this one - nothing to be gained from beating ourselves up further IMO.