I really do think that Steve Redgrave is not worthy of a place on this list.
I have nothing against him personally and of course he has won 5 Olympic golds. But in what discipline? Rowing! A minority sport if ever there was one. It is just typical of us (Brits) to latch on to someone just because they are top of their game in a sport that 99.99% of the world couldn't give a hoot about. I know he was fit, I know he dedicated 20 odd years to rowing, but so what?
To me sport is about winning. On that basis my top British sportsman would have to be Nick Faldo. A winner of Six major tournaments, something that I can not see equaled or beaten in my lifetime. He is the most successful British golfer of all time.
I am a cricket man and I have laughed at some of the cricket suggestions. I loved Both as a lad. He was a national hero when bowling out weakened teams or thrashing crap Aussie sides all round the park. I do accept that you can only play against what is up against you and as Both didn't do it against the best side in the world at the time - The West Indies - he falls down IMO. Having said that, he pisses all over his supposed Heir apparent Flintoff.
Other cricketers to consider would be Barrington, Dexter, Trueman etc but the one that sticks out for me is Dennis Compton. Of course I never saw him play, but the way he is revered by not only his fans but his contemporaries too leads me to believe he was an exceptional sportsman. He was a winner, had a personality and also played professional football for Arsenal.
Fred Perry is definitely worth a place on his record but not having seen him or his opposition I find it hard to propose him.
Daley Thompson did win two golds for the decathlon but both were tarnished with lack of competition through political withdrawals.
As for football I could only suggest the two Bobbies - Moore and Charlton. Both great ambassadors as well as players, both reached the pinnacle of their careers. I'd have to choose Charlton over Moore though for his European and League success, and for his total commitment to his club.
I'd have Bryan Robson before David Beckham.
Rugby as with rowing I find as too minority.
Boxing is a global sport and we have produced some good World Champions, but all of them seem to have gone of the boil. Our favourite is Henry Cooper and he never won a World Title!
For this question I am not even considering snooker, darts or bowls etc.
In conclusion I come up with the following
1) Nick Faldo
2) Bobby Charlton
3) Dennis Compton
Top post DJDD, I agree with 99% of what you say and you can't really argue with your choices.
However, I would say that accusing Botham of "thrashing crap Aussie sides all round the park" is a bit harsh since the 1981 Aussie side he humiliated in Bothams Ashes contained bowlers of the class of....
DK Lillee - 355 Test wickets at 23.92 (he was only 32 in that series) TM Alderman - 170 Test wickers at 27.1 (25 years old in that series) GF Lawson - 180 Test wickets at 30.5 ((24 years old in that series)
The 1981 Aussie side also contained some other very fine players like Rod Marsh, Alan Border and Kim Hughes although admittedly they were weaker than they had been in the 70's.
However, you are right in saying that the Aussies he thrashed around post-Packer in the late 70's and in the 1985 and 86/87 series were quite poor sides.
Also, regarding his record against the Windies, it is true to say that he never got a ton against them, although he had a fair bit of joy with the ball against them, it would be equally fair to say that the Windies destroyed virtually everything in their path in that period and apart from Alan Lamb there were very few batsmen who made runs against them.
[cite]Posted By: DJ Davey Dave[/cite] It is just typical of us (Brits) to latch on to someone just because they are top of their game in a sport that 99.99% of the world couldn't give a hoot about. I know he was fit, I know he dedicated 20 odd years to rowing, but so what?
To me sport is about winning.
I disagree. It is also typical of us Brits to try and belittle achievements, some would argue.
You last sentence goes against your other points; if sport is about winning then you will not see a finer winner:
5 Olympic Golds
9 World Championship Golds
3 Commonwealth Games Golds.
Yes, rowing is a minority sport, but it is also arguably the most physical and mentally demanding sport in existance that still requires an intricate level of skill and judgment. I can not think of any other type of sportsman that have to work as hard on a daily basis as a rower would have to do.
So its not the achievements that make him a great to me, its the longevity that makes him stand out. To win in rowing, like other physically and mentally demanding sports, you have to be right on your peak. So to stay at your peak for 20-odd years was nothing short of outstanding.
Plus the fact he had to deal with the last seven years of his success with diabetes.
why do you not consider snooker?
one of your choices is nick faldo who plays in a sport where fitness isn't essential to compete at the top level (monty, westwood, daly etc).
when it comes to winning, for me steve davis and stephen hendry dominated the world title for a number of years.
you could say it is a minority sport, but with the snobbery and selectiveness of joining a golf club this too could be classed as a minority sport.
[cite]Posted By: paulbaconsarnie[/cite]djdavey dave
just a polite question.
why do you not consider snooker?
one of your choices is nick faldo who plays in a sport where fitness isn't essential to compete at the top level (monty, westwood, daly etc).
when it comes to winning, for me steve davis and stephen hendry dominated the world title for a number of years.
you could say it is a minority sport, but with the snobbery and selectiveness of joining a golf club this too could be classed as a minority sport.
I do consider Snooker a sport and darts too for that matter. It's just I couldn't think about those sports above Football, Cricket, Golf etc.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]Top post DJDD, I agree with 99% of what you say and you can't really argue with your choices.
However, I would say that accusing Botham of "thrashing crap Aussie sides all round the park" is a bit harsh since the 1981 Aussie side he humiliated in Bothams Ashes contained bowlers of the class of....
DK Lillee - 355 Test wickets at 23.92 (he was only 32 in that series)
TM Alderman - 170 Test wickers at 27.1 (25 years old in that series)
GF Lawson - 180 Test wickets at 30.5 ((24 years old in that series)
The 1981 Aussie side also contained some other very fine players like Rod Marsh, Alan Border and Kim Hughes although admittedly they were weaker than they had been in the 70's.
However, you are right in saying that the Aussies he thrashed around post-Packer in the late 70's and in the 1985 and 86/87 series were quite poor sides.
Also, regarding his record against the Windies, it is true to say that he never got a ton against them, although he had a fair bit of joy with the ball against them, it would be equally fair to say that the Windies destroyed virtually everything in their path in that period and apart from Alan Lamb there were very few batsmen who made runs against them.
I agree the Aussies did have some great players in 81, however they were being led by Kim Hughes. I do rate Hughes as a batsmen but he definalty did not have the senior pros on his side at that time.
Botham picked some good bowling figures once or twice against the Windies but never had them on the run.
I reckon the best WI team from late 70's to late 80's would have beaten the Aussies from the last ten years.
[cite]Posted By: DJ Davey Dave[/cite]It is just typical of us (Brits) to latch on to someone just because they are top of their game in a sport that 99.99% of the world couldn't give a hoot about. I know he was fit, I know he dedicated 20 odd years to rowing, but so what?
To me sport is about winning.
I disagree. It is also typical of us Brits to try and belittle achievements, some would argue.
You last sentence goes against your other points; if sport is about winning then you will not see a finer winner:
5 Olympic Golds
9 World Championship Golds
3 Commonwealth Games Golds.
Yes, rowing is a minority sport, but it is also arguably the most physical and mentally demanding sport in existance that still requires an intricate level of skill and judgment. I can not think of any other type of sportsman that have to work as hard on a daily basis as a rower would have to do.
So its not the achievements that make him a great to me, its the longevity that makes him stand out. To win in rowing, like other physically and mentally demanding sports, you have to be right on your peak. So to stay at your peak for 20-odd years was nothing short of outstanding.
Plus the fact he had to deal with the last seven years of his success with diabetes.
But winning against who?
How many rowers are there compared to footballers, cricketers and golfers?
That's my point.
regardless of how many there are, in any sport (minority or majority), the difference between the standard of those at the top level is usually minute, so to stay ahead of the field for such a long time is what stands out for me.
There is also the argument that a footballer is a cog in an 11 man team, so i would also highlight those in an individual sport, or cricket and pairs rowing, where individual roles are unique, before your football's, rugby and other group team sports. .
[cite]Posted By: AFKA Bartram[/cite]regardless of how many there are, in any sport (minority or majority), the difference between the standard of those at the top level is usually minute, so to stay ahead of the field for such a long time is what stands out for me.
There is also the argument that a footballer is a cog in an 11 man team, so i would also highlight those in an individual sport, or cricket and pairs rowing, where individual roles are unique, before your football's, rugby and other group team sports. .
You could argue that Cricket is a minority sport being played seriously in only 7 or 8 countries if you count the Windies as one unit rather than many small nations.
DJDD...you call rowing a minority sport and therefore refuse to recognise Steve Redgrave's right to be one of the three greatest sportmen then include golf! Surely golf is an even bigger minority sport? And as interesting to watch as drying paint.
Steve Redgrave, five gold medals, plus numerous World and European championships say everything about the consistent effort he put in over 20 years, more creditworthy is that he did this in an endurance sport while suffering from diabetes and he has helped inspire a generation of great rowers. His will to win was something else.
Tanni Grey-Thompson - disabled female athlete who won many medals at various disciplines inspite of being severely physically handicapped. Another great role model with a fantastic will to win.
Linford Christie...a great runner who was a world best for several years and another who won against adversity and in a competitive field.
Golf a minority sport? Well maybe in the Black Forest it ain't that easy to find your ball.
There are over 32,000 golf courses across the world including more than 250 in the Peoples Republic of China.
Millions of people play every week.
Tanni Grey - Thompson - Not a man.
Linford Christie - Proven cheat and still banned by the IOC.
Douglas Jardine - Any cricketer that can upset the Aussies as much as that has to be in the top 3 Jim Clarke - (Did this start of as English or British I can't remember) Class of his field in F1 in the 60's if English then sticking to F1 Nigel Mansell Sir Stanley Matthews - My son is called Stan don't know why....
How many rowing machines are there in gym's ? More people in the world 'row' than play football, cricket, rugby and golf combined.
:-)
Totally and utterly disagree with that.
Gyms are for those who can afford them in the metropolitan areas. There're ain't that many provincial ones I'll wager.
[cite]Posted By: AFKA Bartram[/cite]but the majority of people live in metropolitan areas. Do you think more people play football in the UK than use gyms ? :-)
Come on...Nick Faldo employs someone to carry his bags and all he does is walk slowly, then hit a ball 200 yards and then walk after it, before moaning that he's not being paid enough and sods off to America to earn a few more million. Tiger Woods earns millions every year playing golf and when it comes to say the Ryder Cup where he has to play for nothing he too starts moaning about the injustice. Where's the "sport" in that? Anyway golf is a game, not a sport and pretty much a privileged one at that, besides it's not even played at the Olympics. A waste of green space and pringle jumpers.
Comments
Martin Johnson - Winner.
Fred Trueman - Go check his Test record.
You're biased : - )
I have nothing against him personally and of course he has won 5 Olympic golds. But in what discipline? Rowing! A minority sport if ever there was one. It is just typical of us (Brits) to latch on to someone just because they are top of their game in a sport that 99.99% of the world couldn't give a hoot about. I know he was fit, I know he dedicated 20 odd years to rowing, but so what?
To me sport is about winning. On that basis my top British sportsman would have to be Nick Faldo. A winner of Six major tournaments, something that I can not see equaled or beaten in my lifetime. He is the most successful British golfer of all time.
I am a cricket man and I have laughed at some of the cricket suggestions. I loved Both as a lad. He was a national hero when bowling out weakened teams or thrashing crap Aussie sides all round the park. I do accept that you can only play against what is up against you and as Both didn't do it against the best side in the world at the time - The West Indies - he falls down IMO. Having said that, he pisses all over his supposed Heir apparent Flintoff.
Other cricketers to consider would be Barrington, Dexter, Trueman etc but the one that sticks out for me is Dennis Compton. Of course I never saw him play, but the way he is revered by not only his fans but his contemporaries too leads me to believe he was an exceptional sportsman. He was a winner, had a personality and also played professional football for Arsenal.
Fred Perry is definitely worth a place on his record but not having seen him or his opposition I find it hard to propose him.
Daley Thompson did win two golds for the decathlon but both were tarnished with lack of competition through political withdrawals.
As for football I could only suggest the two Bobbies - Moore and Charlton. Both great ambassadors as well as players, both reached the pinnacle of their careers. I'd have to choose Charlton over Moore though for his European and League success, and for his total commitment to his club.
I'd have Bryan Robson before David Beckham.
Rugby as with rowing I find as too minority.
Boxing is a global sport and we have produced some good World Champions, but all of them seem to have gone of the boil. Our favourite is Henry Cooper and he never won a World Title!
For this question I am not even considering snooker, darts or bowls etc.
In conclusion I come up with the following
1) Nick Faldo
2) Bobby Charlton
3) Dennis Compton
However, I would say that accusing Botham of "thrashing crap Aussie sides all round the park" is a bit harsh since the 1981 Aussie side he humiliated in Bothams Ashes contained bowlers of the class of....
DK Lillee - 355 Test wickets at 23.92 (he was only 32 in that series)
TM Alderman - 170 Test wickers at 27.1 (25 years old in that series)
GF Lawson - 180 Test wickets at 30.5 ((24 years old in that series)
The 1981 Aussie side also contained some other very fine players like Rod Marsh, Alan Border and Kim Hughes although admittedly they were weaker than they had been in the 70's.
However, you are right in saying that the Aussies he thrashed around post-Packer in the late 70's and in the 1985 and 86/87 series were quite poor sides.
Also, regarding his record against the Windies, it is true to say that he never got a ton against them, although he had a fair bit of joy with the ball against them, it would be equally fair to say that the Windies destroyed virtually everything in their path in that period and apart from Alan Lamb there were very few batsmen who made runs against them.
Georgie Best
Nigel Benn
I disagree. It is also typical of us Brits to try and belittle achievements, some would argue.
You last sentence goes against your other points; if sport is about winning then you will not see a finer winner:
5 Olympic Golds
9 World Championship Golds
3 Commonwealth Games Golds.
Yes, rowing is a minority sport, but it is also arguably the most physical and mentally demanding sport in existance that still requires an intricate level of skill and judgment. I can not think of any other type of sportsman that have to work as hard on a daily basis as a rower would have to do.
So its not the achievements that make him a great to me, its the longevity that makes him stand out. To win in rowing, like other physically and mentally demanding sports, you have to be right on your peak. So to stay at your peak for 20-odd years was nothing short of outstanding.
Plus the fact he had to deal with the last seven years of his success with diabetes.
just a polite question.
why do you not consider snooker?
one of your choices is nick faldo who plays in a sport where fitness isn't essential to compete at the top level (monty, westwood, daly etc).
when it comes to winning, for me steve davis and stephen hendry dominated the world title for a number of years.
you could say it is a minority sport, but with the snobbery and selectiveness of joining a golf club this too could be classed as a minority sport.
I can't think of many sports that require a higher fitness level than boxing.
Paula Radcliffe, Sally Gunnel and Denise Lewis must be considered (for west side ;-) )
Dennis Compton for playing top level cricket and football and being an all round bounder
Jimmy White
Phil Tufnell
blame Ledge "sid the sexist" Knows for making it a "sportsman" list. Ban him : - )
Max Woosnam
I do consider Snooker a sport and darts too for that matter. It's just I couldn't think about those sports above Football, Cricket, Golf etc.
I agree the Aussies did have some great players in 81, however they were being led by Kim Hughes. I do rate Hughes as a batsmen but he definalty did not have the senior pros on his side at that time.
Botham picked some good bowling figures once or twice against the Windies but never had them on the run.
I reckon the best WI team from late 70's to late 80's would have beaten the Aussies from the last ten years.
But winning against who?
How many rowers are there compared to footballers, cricketers and golfers?
That's my point.
There is also the argument that a footballer is a cog in an 11 man team, so i would also highlight those in an individual sport, or cricket and pairs rowing, where individual roles are unique, before your football's, rugby and other group team sports. .
You could argue that Cricket is a minority sport being played seriously in only 7 or 8 countries if you count the Windies as one unit rather than many small nations.
I love these debates, they're better down the pub though!
Steve Redgrave, five gold medals, plus numerous World and European championships say everything about the consistent effort he put in over 20 years, more creditworthy is that he did this in an endurance sport while suffering from diabetes and he has helped inspire a generation of great rowers. His will to win was something else.
Tanni Grey-Thompson - disabled female athlete who won many medals at various disciplines inspite of being severely physically handicapped. Another great role model with a fantastic will to win.
Linford Christie...a great runner who was a world best for several years and another who won against adversity and in a competitive field.
There are over 32,000 golf courses across the world including more than 250 in the Peoples Republic of China.
Millions of people play every week.
Tanni Grey - Thompson - Not a man.
Linford Christie - Proven cheat and still banned by the IOC.
LOL, great reply !!
How many rowing machines are there in gym's ? More people in the world 'row' than play football, cricket, rugby and golf combined.
:-)
Jim Clarke - (Did this start of as English or British I can't remember) Class of his field in F1 in the 60's if English then sticking to F1 Nigel Mansell
Sir Stanley Matthews - My son is called Stan don't know why....
Kinsella isn't british...
Totally and utterly disagree with that.
Gyms are for those who can afford them in the metropolitan areas. There're ain't that many provincial ones I'll wager.
More play football, cricket, rugby and golf yes.
Steve Redgrave - Might be a minority sport but those guys are seriously fit and to maintain his supremacy over the timespan that he did is awesome
CB Fry - As Henry says unrivalled for versatility and success in different sports