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Incident in Greenwich
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The age of the perpetrators of these crimes is really shocking. Kids killing kids. I think this is a hugely complicated issue and unfortunately complicated issues rarely have simple answers like “more police”, “tougher sentences”, “shoot to kill” (WTF). Maybe it’s a combination of some of those with other things, but the age of the perpetrators tells me there is an education, maturity and role model/leadership gap that is contributing to what has become an extremely serious problem.2
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I would bring back hanging for anyone who goes out armed with a weapon with the specific intent to hurt or kill anyone. Any wooly haired liberals who opposed it I would put them next to them. Too many excuses for the scum that do this, loads of people don't have a great upbringing, but don't go round stabbing and shooting people.
About time people stopped making excuses for this vermin. Read once there are 38 support agencies for prisoners, scumbags and those of that ilk... Compared to 1 for the victims who if not killed suffer a real life sentance along with their loved ones...
Just look at the scum Vincent family for recent evidence that makes the public eye.0 -
EveshamAddick said:
But do you think the prospect of a custodial sentence even goes through the mind of these offenders? Given that with all the CCTV we have everywhere in this country, and vehicle recognition etc, it is almost impossible to get away with anything and offenders are arrested almost immediately, it’s still not stopping most of these people from carrying out the offences in the first place. I would imagine there are other imperatives such as drug addiction and for those caught up in that, they can’t rationalise in relation to anything else.cabbles said:Personally, I think tougher sentencing is an absolute must in terms of a short term deterrent. I understand that the problems are rooted deeper due to societal issues, race, poverty and other huge problems, but to stem the number of lives being lost, whilst (if we ever), get to grips with this problem via a long term strategy, we need harder short term sentencing. This is just becoming the norm now. It doesn’t look like this is high on the priorities of any government as a long term goal, so the very least we can do is come down hard on any scumbag that takes a life through violence and knivesShootersHillGuru said:Justice has to have a heart and also be when required as hard as granite. I don’t want to see a system where circumstances to a crime are not taken into consideration. I do want to see sentences that act as a deterrent. Carrying a knife has the sure and certain consequence of going to prison for a fixed term regardless of whether it has been used and by fixed term I mean perhaps two years. Using a knife carries a tariff of minimum ten years. Robbery minimum ten. Drug dealing second offence minimum five years. You get my drift. All expensive and pointless if the underlying causes are also not addressed and that is a generation or more of work.
All very good points and I take each of them on board. Tougher sentencing may not be the answer, but like VG I believe some sort of short term sustained approach, be it a combo of tougher policing/sentencing may work. I’m not for one second saying we don’t address these deeper, more routed problems that come from any number of issues. Strong debates from all on the whole over the last few posts which is encouraging to see anyhowGillis said:cabbles said:
Mate I wasn’t just thinking about this one in isolation, but in the context of the larger issue. I don’t know, are our sentences for murder/manslaughter tough enough? How many people take a life and see daylight again after 10, 15, 20 years. I understand where you are coming from, and I know that it’s not as simple as ‘tougher sentencing’ but as in my reply to Shooters, I can’t see how anything else would be as beneficial in the short term.Chizz said:
@cabbles Someone was murdered yesterday in South London, hence this thread being bumped. What "tougher sentencing" do you think the perpetrator should get, if (hopefully when) caught, charged, tried and convicted?cabbles said:Personally, I think tougher sentencing is an absolute must in terms of a short term deterrent. I understand that the problems are rooted deeper due to societal issues, race, poverty and other huge problems, but to stem the number of lives being lost, whilst (if we ever), get to grips with this problem via a long term strategy, we need harder short term sentencing. This is just becoming the norm now. It doesn’t look like this is high on the priorities of any government as a long term goal, so the very least we can do is come down hard on any scumbag that takes a life through violence and knives
I think there are three types of people that post on threads like this. Those that think meting out "natural justice" is a good thing (spoiler: it isn't). Those that repeat tropes like "tougher sentencing". And those that think carefully about what they post. I am certain that you naturally belong in that latter group. So I am really surprised that you post about "tougher sentencing". The perpetrator, if convicted, will serve a life sentence.Would you not consider losing 10, 15, 20 years of your life a sufficient deterrent?If you would, then why do you think the people committing these crimes don't?It's in that difference that the problem lies, and it's a complex problem that won't be solved with simplistic solutions. If people aren't concerned about losing 10 years of their lives, I doubt the prospect of a longer sentence would be of much concern either.1 -
Yes we could be like America, there are no murders there.Chippycafc said:I would bring back hanging for anyone who goes out armed with a weapon with the specific intent to hurt or kill anyone. Any wooly haired liberals who opposed it I would put them next to them. Too many excuses for the scum that do this, loads of people don't have a great upbringing, but don't go round stabbing and shooting people.
About time people stopped making excuses for this vermin. Read once there are 38 support agencies for prisoners, scumbags and those of that ilk... Compared to 1 for the victims who if not killed suffer a real life sentance along with their loved ones...
Just look at the scum Vincent family for recent evidence that makes the public eye.6 -
Another one that needs the tin tacShootersHillGuru said:
Perhaps you should tell the Home Secretary, The Mayor of London and Commissioner of The Metropolitan Police thenHartleypete said:
I do.ShootersHillGuru said:
No you don’t know the answer.Hartleypete said:I know what the answer is, but it wouldn't go down well on here with all the lefty do gooders, so I'll keep it to myself.0 -
Here in the US, we have states with and without the death penalty. The murder rates is consistently higher in death penalty states.
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-and-research/murder-rates/murder-rate-of-death-penalty-states-compared-to-non-death-penalty-states
Tougher penalties may have a place as punishment, but there is little evidence that they act as a deterrent.
Part of of the problem, in my opinion, is that when we discuss it, these sentences look like a deterrent to us, because we are deterred by them. But it’s unlikely we’d commit these crimes anyway. So it looks an attractive and simple solution to us, but people who commit these crimes really don’t care about the consequences.
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They don’t even seem to think they will get caught, and they nearly always do. And we don’t understand that mindset, let alone why they wish to perpetrate these crimes.SomervilleAddick said:Here in the US, we have states with and without the death penalty. The murder rates is consistently higher in death penalty states.
https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-and-research/murder-rates/murder-rate-of-death-penalty-states-compared-to-non-death-penalty-states
Tougher penalties may have a place as punishment, but there is little evidence that they act as a deterrent.
Part of of the problem, in my opinion, is that when we discuss it, these sentences look like a deterrent to us, because we are deterred by them. But it’s unlikely we’d commit these crimes anyway. So it looks an attractive and simple solution to us, but people who commit these crimes really don’t care about the consequences.0 -
Hang them too but the old needle is much better. But they wouldn't do it again, rather that being let out after a couple of years and doing it again.EveshamAddick said:
Yes we could be like America, there are no murders there.Chippycafc said:I would bring back hanging for anyone who goes out armed with a weapon with the specific intent to hurt or kill anyone. Any wooly haired liberals who opposed it I would put them next to them. Too many excuses for the scum that do this, loads of people don't have a great upbringing, but don't go round stabbing and shooting people.
About time people stopped making excuses for this vermin. Read once there are 38 support agencies for prisoners, scumbags and those of that ilk... Compared to 1 for the victims who if not killed suffer a real life sentance along with their loved ones...
Just look at the scum Vincent family for recent evidence that makes the public eye.0 -
Not gonna add much to this thread and it probably already has been said.
Tougher sentences needed
And LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE
Feed up with life sentences over here because its not life is it, its what 21 years out in 11/12 for good behaviour, thats bollocks id you get life you should be in jail until u die3 -
You're a bit like me I think mate, you haven't worked, shopped, socialised in Central London and commuted from Albany Park Ends, straight into Canon Street for the last few years of your life, so you can't possibly have a view on the London crime problem that is reported on every day throughout the media on a daily basisCharltonMadrid said:Admittedly commenting from looking from the outside, but since I left the UK I realise how nihilistic some youth culture can be compared to other countries. There seems to be a complete lack of empathy which causes this complete disregard for human life. I agree tough action is needed but there seems to be something far deeper that needs addressing.
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Another one today in Tower hamlets.0
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As of May 31, 2019, there were 2,636 death row inmates in the United States and that is on a constant decline over the past 18 years. Unbelievably, the vast majority are from what is probably known as the most liberal state, California.
41 States and the Federal Government still have the death penalty.
The average prisoner remains on death row for over 16 years before being executed. The longest current death row prisoner is Raymond Riles, who has been on death row for 45 years.
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@EveshamAddick, exactly. There is no simple solution, it’s going to take a lot of things in parallel to reduce this - no one thing will solve it, as the motivation in each instance is different. Harsher sentencing is unlikely to deter people involved in gang violence, so the solution there has to be different. Once you start peeling the onion, it gets much more complex.1
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Agree it’s complex and no simple solutions but I’d like to know why you think tougher sentencing is unlikely to deter those in gangs in particular?SomervilleAddick said:@EveshamAddick, exactly. There is no simple solution, it’s going to take a lot of things in parallel to reduce this - no one thing will solve it, as the motivation in each instance is different. Harsher sentencing is unlikely to deter people involved in gang violence, so the solution there has to be different. Once you start peeling the onion, it gets much more complex.0 -
No-one ever completes a life sentence in the UK, Paulie.paulie8290 said:Not gonna add much to this thread and it probably already has been said.
Tougher sentences needed
And LIFE SHOULD MEAN LIFE
Feed up with life sentences over here because its not life is it, its what 21 years out in 11/12 for good behaviour, thats bollocks id you get life you should be in jail until u die0 -
Yet more tragedy. Its not new. Its awful. But...
The solution - everyone needs to stop taking themselves and life so seriously.
If something does not go as well as it should or you feel wronged then just 'let it go'.0 -
I think they do I am sure there are some prisoners (about 20) who are on whole life sentences ie. Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire ripper) to name just one.0
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There are parts of south central Los Angeles where, if you murder someone, are tried, convicted and sentenced to death, your life expectancy increases.
While that's the case, there shouldn't be any right-thinking people still suggesting that stronger sentences act as a deterrent.2 -
Chippy, I'm on about before people do it. And I'm not on about those who are mentally ill.1
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I don’t think you can make that leap. Perhaps those that perpetuate the most horrific crimes aren’t deterred but at lower end of crime and before these young men are completely set into criminality I think the fear of getting caught and a tough sentence behind it might make a difference.Chizz said:There are parts of south central Los Angeles where, if you murder someone, are tried, convicted and sentenced to death, your life expectancy increases.
While that's the case, there shouldn't be any right-thinking people still suggesting that stronger sentences act as a deterrent.
Put it another way. Carrying a knife and getting a slap on the wrist won’t deter anyone.0 - Sponsored links:
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Edge... I wasn't answering you.1
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2016 data found UK jails were holding 8,554 inmates serving life – more than France, Germany and Italy combined.Chippycafc said:I think they do I am sure there are some prisoners (about 20) who are on whole life sentences ie. Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire ripper) to name just one.
Only 75 have whole life sentences. The current longest serving lifer is Robert Maudsley - Hannibal the Cannibal - who received his sentence in 1977
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Just checked there are 70 on whole life sentences...0
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I worry that there will be no one left to design the buildings of the future and we will go back to concrete tower block housing.0
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How many of those will be released between 11-15 years into their sentenceAddickted said:
2016 data found UK jails were holding 8,554 inmates serving life – more than France, Germany and Italy combined.Chippycafc said:I think they do I am sure there are some prisoners (about 20) who are on whole life sentences ie. Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire ripper) to name just one.
Life should mean life1 -
None of them will be released from their sentence, Paulie. Some may be given the chance to continue serving their sentence outside jail. But not one will be freed from their sentence.paulie8290 said:
How many of those will be released between 11-15 years into their sentenceAddickted said:
2016 data found UK jails were holding 8,554 inmates serving life – more than France, Germany and Italy combined.Chippycafc said:I think they do I am sure there are some prisoners (about 20) who are on whole life sentences ie. Peter Sutcliffe (Yorkshire ripper) to name just one.
Life should mean life2 -
In a scenario where getting a death sentence means you live longer than not getting a death sentence, the starting point should not be trying to make sentences stronger.ShootersHillGuru said:
I don’t think you can make that leap. Perhaps those that perpetuate the most horrific crimes aren’t deterred but at lower end of crime and before these young men are completely set into criminality I think the fear of getting caught and a tough sentence behind it might make a difference.Chizz said:There are parts of south central Los Angeles where, if you murder someone, are tried, convicted and sentenced to death, your life expectancy increases.
While that's the case, there shouldn't be any right-thinking people still suggesting that stronger sentences act as a deterrent.
Put it another way. Carrying a knife and getting a slap on the wrist won’t deter anyone.0 -
As I said earlier - we need to bring back hard labour.
There are dozens of useful things an inmate can do - like repairing sewers.
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