game against millwall saturday in doubt due to safety as greater manchester police have an unpaid bill, what would happen if they failed to complete a season?, for example all of the teams who have won points against them etc.
Why would you need a police presence when playing millwall.
Oh hang on a minute.
'cause the Millwall fans need someone to blame for their behaviour.
I reckon they will go into admin. And furthermore they will get their points deduction in League 1 next season starting the season on minus points.
Doesn't the timing of the points deduction depend on when a team goes into administration?
I thought that there was a cut-off date (something similar to the old transfer deadline date i.e. the fourth Thursday in March) and if a club went into admin before that date the points were automatically deducted in that season. After the date the deduction was held in limbo until the season's end: if the club was relegated the deduction took place in the following season, otherwise the points were lost in the same season and if that then meant they dropped into the relegation places then bad luck.
This was to stop clubs doing a "Dirty Leeds" and going into administration a couple of minutes before the end of their final game of the season once relegation had been confirmed.
This rule was in place a few years ago so it may well have changed by now.
I know it’s harsh - but at some point a club must just fold. I know it’s not very community minded - but neither is continual rounds of administration and knocking the local businesses that provide services to the club.
I reckon they will go into admin. And furthermore they will get their points deduction in League 1 next season starting the season on minus points.
Doesn't the timing of the points deduction depend on when a team goes into administration?
I thought that there was a cut-off date (something similar to the old transfer deadline date i.e. the fourth Thursday in March) and if a club went into admin before that date the points were automatically deducted in that season. After the date the deduction was held in limbo until the season's end: if the club was relegated the deduction took place in the following season, otherwise the points were lost in the same season and if that then meant they dropped into the relegation places then bad luck.
This was to stop clubs doing a "Dirty Leeds" and going into administration a couple of minutes before the end of their final game of the season once relegation had been confirmed.
This rule was in place a few years ago so it may well have changed by now.
I think it is for the FA to decide so that there is a clear penalty for a club going into administration. I don’t think they have any need to rush their decision either. I think it is the case that if they get the points to stay up the points deducted this season. If they go down they get deducted next season.
I know it’s harsh - but at some point a club must just fold. I know it’s not very community minded - but neither is continual rounds of administration and knocking the local businesses that provide services to the club.
I’m all for making an example of one club and one club only. The only rules are; must have a history of serial administrations, play in Barcelona snide kits and have delusions about their true position and status in the world.
I know it’s harsh - but at some point a club must just fold. I know it’s not very community minded - but neither is continual rounds of administration and knocking the local businesses that provide services to the club.
I’m all for making an example of one club and one club only. The only rules are; must have a history of serial administrations, play in Barcelona snide kits and have delusions about their true position and status in the world.
Bolton seem to have been in financial difficulty for years.
Perhaps might be best if they do go into admin, have a complete overhaul of the club and start again.
When a club keeps bumping up against administration every couple of years, perhaps that is a sign the marketplace is saying such an entity can not sustain itself and perhaps should not even exist.
Any entity that loses money at a rate of 20-50% of revenues every year forever either cannot survive or at best survive as a charity arm of a very rich person. I don’t think England has that many rich people willing to take these projects on anymore and the rich in other countries won’t be investing in lower leagues, post-Brexit, that’s for sure. Too much hassle and not enough “prestige.”
When you could buy a League One club just a decade ago for £3-10M and Championship clubs for £15-20M, losing about £1-5M per year, that’s one thing. But with costs of acquisition 3-5x as expensive now and losses between £5-20M per year, that is wholly another story.
I still believe in the next recession you will see many people cancel their expensive season tickets, which will ramp up losses at lower league clubs to the breaking point. When this happens, I think there will be few buyers. Bolton is just the start. Many more clubs will soon look like Coventry and Blackpool and Bolton and Notts. We are maybe 2-3 seasons away ourselves from joining that group. How many clubs can South London support sustainably? My opinion is less than currently exist.
Look at CAFC... losing about £7-12M after all sell on fees, per year. In 10 years, that is £70-120M. For a League One club! Rationally, an owner would need to have a net worth of a billion pounds to not have such losses be severely injurious to their personal finances. If you are worth £500M and lose £100M, that is a net worth loss of 20%! For what? League One or Championship glory?
Billionaires are not going to spend money in the lower leagues like that. They are much better off buying gigantic mansions in London even with new taxes being proposed. Mansions will lose far less money. So do new Gulfstream jets. So that creates a terrible state of affairs... 75 or more lower league clubs that need billionaires. And not enough billionaires to go around.
I don't think thats true at all, it's broadly down to poor management and/or chasing the premiership dream.
We do have a higher expense base due to a) being in London (salaries) and b) a premiership stadium. But the vast majority of the losses have occurred due to mismanagement (putting it politely).
I'm not saying we could easily break even AND be competitive/promotion candidates, but I don't think with the right management we'd be far away. £1-2m tops.
Bolton did well in the premier league in more recent times than us. Not sure what has gone wrong but im tending to agree with rob7 that its poor management not because they cant sustain themselves.
Bolton did well in the premier league in more recent times than us. Not sure what has gone wrong but im tending to agree with rob7 that its poor management not because they cant sustain themselves.
Spnding more money than they could afford while still in the Prem just because the prize money got bigger and bigger and bigger.
I don't think thats true at all, it's broadly down to poor management and/or chasing the premiership dream.
We do have a higher expense base due to a) being in London (salaries) and b) a premiership stadium. But the vast majority of the losses have occurred due to mismanagement (putting it politely).
I'm not saying we could easily break even AND be competitive/promotion candidates, but I don't think with the right management we'd be far away. £1-2m tops.
It would be more than that imho but we might be in the championship and have an outside chance of promotion.
Under Roland the irrational failure we have no success AND huge debt
Bolton did well in the premier league in more recent times than us. Not sure what has gone wrong but im tending to agree with rob7 that its poor management not because they cant sustain themselves.
I dont think it is a coincidence that two clubs with PL sized stadiums and hence running costs are hemmoraging money in the lower leagues.
community businesses like ours need further rates relief from the government and, at the risk of sounding a little RDesq need to find ways to use their land assets to generate more income.
But that is surely poor management not down to sustainability? There are plenty of clubs above us that are managed well and dont need government help(not including west ham). I dont see why we are being compared with bolton other than poor management. Yes we have a large stadium but look at most of the teams in the championship and bottom of the premier league. We have proved in the past that we are a sustainable club
Bolton did well in the premier league in more recent times than us. Not sure what has gone wrong but im tending to agree with rob7 that its poor management not because they cant sustain themselves.
I dont think it is a coincidence that two clubs with PL sized stadiums and hence running costs are hemmoraging money in the lower leagues.
community businesses like ours need further rates relief from the government and, at the risk of sounding a little RDesq need to find ways to use their land assets to generate more income.
How would rates relief help for clubs running 10's of millions of pre tax loss? I'm not sure I see much benefit unless you let them off NI and VAT as well.
I don't think thats true at all, it's broadly down to poor management and/or chasing the premiership dream.
We do have a higher expense base due to a) being in London (salaries) and b) a premiership stadium. But the vast majority of the losses have occurred due to mismanagement (putting it politely).
I'm not saying we could easily break even AND be competitive/promotion candidates, but I don't think with the right management we'd be far away. £1-2m tops.
It's an interesting thought. During the 2016/17 season the average pre-tax loss of a League One team was £1.5 million and 1.6 million the season before. In the 16/17 season clubs such as us, Millwall, Sheffield United and Bolton all run at pre-tax losses far above that: Sheffield United reduced player wages by around 10% for the season, but still run an operating loss of around 8.5 million, and a pre tax loss of 5.8 million. It does mean that many clubs operated with a much lower pre-tax losses that season.
Interestingly the year Sheffield United went up, they had £47,500,000 of unrelieved tax losses that they could future offset against any future taxable profits. Basically you can run a club in League One, with much lower costs but you can't sustainably threaten promotion for a few seasons without much bigger losses: Or it seems run a stable club with a viable academy. All the plaudits should go to Rotherham in how they managed to reduce wages and pre-tax loss, yet still get promoted.
If you look at our last season in the Championship 2015/16, many clubs had a £10 million plus loss for the season. There was an anomalie with Wolves making a profit due to Benik Afobe's transfer. Of the clubs that ran with a smaller loss than us of a similar size, they pretty much all run with astronomically higher costs the next season: Forest, Blackburn, and Birmingham. Only Ipswich Town retained an equilibrium in their losses, pretty much all of it owed to Marcus Evans, around 95 million. Analysing Bolton is a waste of time as they've run at unsustainable losses since Premier League times, which can only be sustained if someone is willing to write off hundreds of millions in debt.
So the conclusion is you can run a club in League One competitively for around 2 million pre-tax loss. But it seems unlikely to be able to do that if you want to sustain a Championship structure, that is ready to go and compete if you get promoted. It is virtually impossible to run in the Championship without sustaining multi-million losses year on year, if you want to challenge for promotion consistently, or even wish to avoid debilitating relegation battles. Running a club logically and at a discount to rivals, albeit if you illogically appointed Roy Keane earlier in your ownership, ends up with the inevitable threat of relegation as Ipswich will be suffering. I do not think it possible for a club of Charlton's size, running a modern academy, to compete in League One without a pre-tax loss higher than 1.5-2 million: Notice this is pre-tax, and loss after tax will be way higher if there's a disastrous appointment or large infrastucture costs/investment neeeded.
Comments
Terrible state of affairs at a club with a decent history. Really got to wonder what the future holds for them
I thought that there was a cut-off date (something similar to the old transfer deadline date i.e. the fourth Thursday in March) and if a club went into admin before that date the points were automatically deducted in that season. After the date the deduction was held in limbo until the season's end: if the club was relegated the deduction took place in the following season, otherwise the points were lost in the same season and if that then meant they dropped into the relegation places then bad luck.
This was to stop clubs doing a "Dirty Leeds" and going into administration a couple of minutes before the end of their final game of the season once relegation had been confirmed.
This rule was in place a few years ago so it may well have changed by now.
Perhaps might be best if they do go into admin, have a complete overhaul of the club and start again.
I know it’s not very community minded - but neither is continual rounds of administration and knocking the local businesses that provide services to the club.
Rightly too.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47641126
Any guesses?
All along he bought the wrong club. He misheard Bolton and Charlton
Or maybe he's going to merge us to become CharBolton Wandererletics
Any entity that loses money at a rate of 20-50% of revenues every year forever either cannot survive or at best survive as a charity arm of a very rich person. I don’t think England has that many rich people willing to take these projects on anymore and the rich in other countries won’t be investing in lower leagues, post-Brexit, that’s for sure. Too much hassle and not enough “prestige.”
When you could buy a League One club just a decade ago for £3-10M and Championship clubs for £15-20M, losing about £1-5M per year, that’s one thing. But with costs of acquisition 3-5x as expensive now and losses between £5-20M per year, that is wholly another story.
I still believe in the next recession you will see many people cancel their expensive season tickets, which will ramp up losses at lower league clubs to the breaking point. When this happens, I think there will be few buyers. Bolton is just the start. Many more clubs will soon look like Coventry and Blackpool and Bolton and Notts. We are maybe 2-3 seasons away ourselves from joining that group. How many clubs can South London support sustainably? My opinion is less than currently exist.
Look at CAFC... losing about £7-12M after all sell on fees, per year. In 10 years, that is £70-120M. For a League One club! Rationally, an owner would need to have a net worth of a billion pounds to not have such losses be severely injurious to their personal finances. If you are worth £500M and lose £100M, that is a net worth loss of 20%! For what? League One or Championship glory?
Billionaires are not going to spend money in the lower leagues like that. They are much better off buying gigantic mansions in London even with new taxes being proposed. Mansions will lose far less money. So do new Gulfstream jets. So that creates a terrible state of affairs... 75 or more lower league clubs that need billionaires. And not enough billionaires to go around.
We do have a higher expense base due to a) being in London (salaries) and b) a premiership stadium. But the vast majority of the losses have occurred due to mismanagement (putting it politely).
I'm not saying we could easily break even AND be competitive/promotion candidates, but I don't think with the right management we'd be far away. £1-2m tops.
Under Roland the irrational failure we have no success AND huge debt
community businesses like ours need further rates relief from the government and, at the risk of sounding a little RDesq need to find ways to use their land assets to generate more income.
Rob7Lee said: It's an interesting thought. During the 2016/17 season the average pre-tax loss of a League One team was £1.5 million and 1.6 million the season before. In the 16/17 season clubs such as us, Millwall, Sheffield United and Bolton all run at pre-tax losses far above that: Sheffield United reduced player wages by around 10% for the season, but still run an operating loss of around 8.5 million, and a pre tax loss of 5.8 million. It does mean that many clubs operated with a much lower pre-tax losses that season.
Interestingly the year Sheffield United went up, they had £47,500,000 of unrelieved tax losses that they could future offset against any future taxable profits. Basically you can run a club in League One, with much lower costs but you can't sustainably threaten promotion for a few seasons without much bigger losses: Or it seems run a stable club with a viable academy. All the plaudits should go to Rotherham in how they managed to reduce wages and pre-tax loss, yet still get promoted.
If you look at our last season in the Championship 2015/16, many clubs had a £10 million plus loss for the season. There was an anomalie with Wolves making a profit due to Benik Afobe's transfer. Of the clubs that ran with a smaller loss than us of a similar size, they pretty much all run with astronomically higher costs the next season: Forest, Blackburn, and Birmingham. Only Ipswich Town retained an equilibrium in their losses, pretty much all of it owed to Marcus Evans, around 95 million. Analysing Bolton is a waste of time as they've run at unsustainable losses since Premier League times, which can only be sustained if someone is willing to write off hundreds of millions in debt.
So the conclusion is you can run a club in League One competitively for around 2 million pre-tax loss. But it seems unlikely to be able to do that if you want to sustain a Championship structure, that is ready to go and compete if you get promoted. It is virtually impossible to run in the Championship without sustaining multi-million losses year on year, if you want to challenge for promotion consistently, or even wish to avoid debilitating relegation battles. Running a club logically and at a discount to rivals, albeit if you illogically appointed Roy Keane earlier in your ownership, ends up with the inevitable threat of relegation as Ipswich will be suffering. I do not think it possible for a club of Charlton's size, running a modern academy, to compete in League One without a pre-tax loss higher than 1.5-2 million: Notice this is pre-tax, and loss after tax will be way higher if there's a disastrous appointment or large infrastucture costs/investment neeeded.