No joke at all. Mine was questioning of humanity's patterns of behaviour over the generations. The 'Fluffy stage', (question mark) was a lament. My point was that we cannot champion liberal democracy without looking into the stractural failures which(where it's most needed) time and time again cause it to end with authoritative leaders of the right or the left (No Che Guevara or Dolly Parton). Presuming we agree that all humans respond to their environmental pressures in a similar way. (People talk about corruption in the developing world as if its in other people's DNA...) I don't see a reason to make any 'us and them' points. Unfortunately- in my reading, the entities that think of Liberal democracy as 'fluffy' are the ones who sees it as an annoying obstacle that stand in their way of making unchecked material profit.
The only fluff available to me is my little rant (Charlton aside)
What structural failures does Liberal Democracy have that are greater/worse than those flaws seen in dictatorships? Dictatorships are inherently flawed as they are undemocratic and rely on oppression to stay in power.
A few democracies have reverted to dictatorships, many dictatorships (Warsaw Pact for example) have become democracies and are better for it albeit far from perfect (back to the Churchill quote again).
Your marxist analysis was old fashioned in the 1970s when I first heard, and rejected, it.
Since when the manipulation of governments by big business is marxist analysis (have a word with your Adam Smith baker). So we doing fashion now are we..? You may allow yourself to be swept by the Kardashians as much as you like but your trickled down solutions to wealth creation wouldn't even make it in to good Samaritan shops !!!! And as for Poland. ... Gee.... Have another look....
Maybe try actually constructing an argument rather than making up nonsense about me being "swept by the Kardashians".
You dismiss Liberal Democracy as fluffy and then run away when challenged and hide behind nonsense.
One simple point before our pint. When judging Liberal democracy, we cannot pick and chose. Liberal democracy isn't judged by life in Switzerland or Sweden or Brazil, or Israel separately. As it is all interconnected It is judged by the over all pictur. Rather like a city not being judged by one suburb. Obvious...? Well, you sort of demanded it... Cheers
And you point is?
Another meaningless bit of waffle with no substance.
My judgement of liberal democracy is that is works and often it works well.
It certainly works better in those four countries than other countries that aren't democracies like most of Israel's neighbours or than the dictatorships behind the iron curtain before 1990 or in Brazil in the 1970s.
So the overall picture is that liberal democracies are, while far from perfect, more equal, more tolerant and provide a better life for their citizens than non-democracies of the left or of the right like Cuba or Iran or Syria.
You keep asking for the point and fail to grasp it. Liberal democracies don't stand as oppose to dictatorships or other liberal democracies. They cooperate and very often economically benefit from those terrible things naughty dictators do arround the world. (That was the last point in case you're still looking) Going back to the very first point I was making: Structural changes (not Hitler or Polpot) are needed to minimise the inequalities and enviromental degradation that happen when Liberal democracies are hijacked by undemocratic multi national business -thus easing tentions in more volnurable parts of the globe.
Marx..?
No, more like what the Aussies call: 'Fair go'...
Many thanks for finally saying something coherent.
Nonsense but at least coherent rather than "fashion" or "Kardashians" waffle.
So democracies have to share the planet with the dictators and will sometimes comprise themselves, sometimes for greed and sometimes for need (eg June 1941). Who knew realpolitik was a thing?
That doesn't make them "fluffy" or any less by far the best option.
If after your latest epiphany you still keep placing Liberal democracies and authoritarian dictatorships as 'neighbours', I'm afraid we still have some distance to travel here.
I argue that the aesthetically pleasing face of humanity as represented by Liberal democracies does not only come with a bit of Realpolitik small print as you suggest, rather its list of ingredients is full of these nasties you claim Liberal democracy to be superior to...
Ps. Fashion references started by you, I only added some vocal fry...
It's not really a very surprising result though is it? Violent crime is extremely high in Brazil, and people there can't turn to their government to fix it because they're so corrupt. People are scared and Bolsonaro offers them hope that the things that directly affect them might change. The fact he's a horrible, hateful, dreadful little man is a very unfortunate part of it, and he will almost certainly make Brazil a worse place. The reality with populism is though that people will quite happily turn a blind eye to racism, sexism and homophobia if they're not immediately going to suffer for those views in exchange for a big change in their lives. They won't be so cheerful when Bolsonaro starts putting together his military regime and his views on torture and brutal prisons do become a reality for the voters, but hindsight won't help unelect him.
This is the time of extremes, and the logical people need to come up with a better plan than screeching at the voters that they're stupid for thinking the bad people can help them, because it's clearly not working.
But if you vote for a right wing authoritarian leader you're being stupid however you dress it up. Authoritarian leaders have been a disaster throughout history unless this guy is somehow going to be different?
If in a few years time he's proved us all wrong and has turned Brazil around then I will obviously be witnessing the birth of a new style of politics.
Singapore has a right wing authoritarian government which most people in the world would envy (compared to whatever flavour of democracy/despotism they have to endure). It is however the exception that proves the rule.
It's not really a very surprising result though is it? Violent crime is extremely high in Brazil, and people there can't turn to their government to fix it because they're so corrupt. People are scared and Bolsonaro offers them hope that the things that directly affect them might change. The fact he's a horrible, hateful, dreadful little man is a very unfortunate part of it, and he will almost certainly make Brazil a worse place. The reality with populism is though that people will quite happily turn a blind eye to racism, sexism and homophobia if they're not immediately going to suffer for those views in exchange for a big change in their lives. They won't be so cheerful when Bolsonaro starts putting together his military regime and his views on torture and brutal prisons do become a reality for the voters, but hindsight won't help unelect him.
This is the time of extremes, and the logical people need to come up with a better plan than screeching at the voters that they're stupid for thinking the bad people can help them, because it's clearly not working.
But if you vote for a right wing authoritarian leader you're being stupid however you dress it up. Authoritarian leaders have been a disaster throughout history unless this guy is somehow going to be different?
If in a few years time he's proved us all wrong and has turned Brazil around then I will obviously be witnessing the birth of a new style of politics.
Singapore has a right wing authoritarian government which most people in the world would envy (compared to whatever flavour of democracy/despotism they have to endure). It is however the exception that proves the rule.
It's not really a very surprising result though is it? Violent crime is extremely high in Brazil, and people there can't turn to their government to fix it because they're so corrupt. People are scared and Bolsonaro offers them hope that the things that directly affect them might change. The fact he's a horrible, hateful, dreadful little man is a very unfortunate part of it, and he will almost certainly make Brazil a worse place. The reality with populism is though that people will quite happily turn a blind eye to racism, sexism and homophobia if they're not immediately going to suffer for those views in exchange for a big change in their lives. They won't be so cheerful when Bolsonaro starts putting together his military regime and his views on torture and brutal prisons do become a reality for the voters, but hindsight won't help unelect him.
This is the time of extremes, and the logical people need to come up with a better plan than screeching at the voters that they're stupid for thinking the bad people can help them, because it's clearly not working.
But if you vote for a right wing authoritarian leader you're being stupid however you dress it up. Authoritarian leaders have been a disaster throughout history unless this guy is somehow going to be different?
If in a few years time he's proved us all wrong and has turned Brazil around then I will obviously be witnessing the birth of a new style of politics.
Singapore has a right wing authoritarian government which most people in the world would envy (compared to whatever flavour of democracy/despotism they have to endure). It is however the exception that proves the rule.
Envy ? A questionable human rights record including the right to detain anyone indefinitely. Google Chye Thye Poh a former parliamentarian held for 32 years without trial plus a number of acts to restrict freedom. It also has a disproportionate number of executions per the population in the world. Visited in early 90s and they were knocking down Chinatown the only area with any feel you were in an Asian city. All neat and shiny from the outside but not my cup of tea.
It's not really a very surprising result though is it? Violent crime is extremely high in Brazil, and people there can't turn to their government to fix it because they're so corrupt. People are scared and Bolsonaro offers them hope that the things that directly affect them might change. The fact he's a horrible, hateful, dreadful little man is a very unfortunate part of it, and he will almost certainly make Brazil a worse place. The reality with populism is though that people will quite happily turn a blind eye to racism, sexism and homophobia if they're not immediately going to suffer for those views in exchange for a big change in their lives. They won't be so cheerful when Bolsonaro starts putting together his military regime and his views on torture and brutal prisons do become a reality for the voters, but hindsight won't help unelect him.
This is the time of extremes, and the logical people need to come up with a better plan than screeching at the voters that they're stupid for thinking the bad people can help them, because it's clearly not working.
But if you vote for a right wing authoritarian leader you're being stupid however you dress it up. Authoritarian leaders have been a disaster throughout history unless this guy is somehow going to be different?
If in a few years time he's proved us all wrong and has turned Brazil around then I will obviously be witnessing the birth of a new style of politics.
Singapore has a right wing authoritarian government which most people in the world would envy (compared to whatever flavour of democracy/despotism they have to endure). It is however the exception that proves the rule.
It's not really a very surprising result though is it? Violent crime is extremely high in Brazil, and people there can't turn to their government to fix it because they're so corrupt. People are scared and Bolsonaro offers them hope that the things that directly affect them might change. The fact he's a horrible, hateful, dreadful little man is a very unfortunate part of it, and he will almost certainly make Brazil a worse place. The reality with populism is though that people will quite happily turn a blind eye to racism, sexism and homophobia if they're not immediately going to suffer for those views in exchange for a big change in their lives. They won't be so cheerful when Bolsonaro starts putting together his military regime and his views on torture and brutal prisons do become a reality for the voters, but hindsight won't help unelect him.
This is the time of extremes, and the logical people need to come up with a better plan than screeching at the voters that they're stupid for thinking the bad people can help them, because it's clearly not working.
But if you vote for a right wing authoritarian leader you're being stupid however you dress it up. Authoritarian leaders have been a disaster throughout history unless this guy is somehow going to be different?
If in a few years time he's proved us all wrong and has turned Brazil around then I will obviously be witnessing the birth of a new style of politics.
Singapore has a right wing authoritarian government which most people in the world would envy (compared to whatever flavour of democracy/despotism they have to endure). It is however the exception that proves the rule.
It's not really a very surprising result though is it? Violent crime is extremely high in Brazil, and people there can't turn to their government to fix it because they're so corrupt. People are scared and Bolsonaro offers them hope that the things that directly affect them might change. The fact he's a horrible, hateful, dreadful little man is a very unfortunate part of it, and he will almost certainly make Brazil a worse place. The reality with populism is though that people will quite happily turn a blind eye to racism, sexism and homophobia if they're not immediately going to suffer for those views in exchange for a big change in their lives. They won't be so cheerful when Bolsonaro starts putting together his military regime and his views on torture and brutal prisons do become a reality for the voters, but hindsight won't help unelect him.
This is the time of extremes, and the logical people need to come up with a better plan than screeching at the voters that they're stupid for thinking the bad people can help them, because it's clearly not working.
But if you vote for a right wing authoritarian leader you're being stupid however you dress it up. Authoritarian leaders have been a disaster throughout history unless this guy is somehow going to be different?
If in a few years time he's proved us all wrong and has turned Brazil around then I will obviously be witnessing the birth of a new style of politics.
Singapore has a right wing authoritarian government which most people in the world would envy (compared to whatever flavour of democracy/despotism they have to endure). It is however the exception that proves the rule.
Envy ? A questionable human rights record including the right to detain anyone indefinitely. Google Chye Thye Poh a former parliamentarian held for 32 years without trial plus a number of acts to restrict freedom. It also has a disproportionate number of executions per the population in the world. Visited in early 90s and they were knocking down Chinatown the only area with any feel you were in an Asian city. All neat and shiny from the outside but not my cup of tea.
Comments
Nonsense but at least coherent rather than "fashion" or "Kardashians" waffle.
So democracies have to share the planet with the dictators and will sometimes comprise themselves, sometimes for greed and sometimes for need (eg June 1941). Who knew realpolitik was a thing?
That doesn't make them "fluffy" or any less by far the best option.
If after your latest epiphany you still keep placing Liberal democracies and authoritarian dictatorships as 'neighbours', I'm afraid we still have some distance to travel here.
I argue that the aesthetically pleasing face of humanity as represented by Liberal democracies does not only come with a bit of Realpolitik small print as you suggest, rather its list of ingredients is full of these nasties you claim Liberal democracy to be superior to...
Ps. Fashion references started by you, I only added some vocal fry...
Envy ? A questionable human rights record including the right to detain anyone indefinitely. Google Chye Thye Poh a former parliamentarian held for 32 years without trial plus a number of acts to restrict freedom. It also has a disproportionate number of executions per the population in the world. Visited in early 90s and they were knocking down Chinatown the only area with any feel you were in an Asian city. All neat and shiny from the outside but not my cup of tea.
Good piece here backing up your post.
The large Portuguese speaking population in Croydon seem to over the moon with the result. Though not sure the Angolans are too bothered.