A terrific trip which made learning engaging and interesting at every stop. Added to the fine company it was a weekend I won't be forgetting anytime soon.
A huge thanks to Neal, Clive, Dave and Alan for their efforts.
My Millwall supporting mate Mark loved it too and would love to pass on his thanks through me, in reality I think it's because he's still mastering the art of reading and writing, we know what that lot are like!
It's not for us to say it was a waste a century on. Those who volunteered (most did) did so because they believed in what they were doing and were prepared to die for it. Individual actions and plans that back-fired can be seen as 'wasteful' but that happens in war. We should always respect their decision to fight and risk death. Our freedom today was preserved by those who fought in both wars - especially those who paid the ultimate price for it.
Nick, it would take weeks of debate to discuss the word 'waste' with regards to the Great War (and I have been at numerous international conferences where we do just that), mostly its about trying to establish a waste in who's eyes? The generation who endured the Great War certainly didn't feel that way, the revisionist historians who came along in the 60's and without access to any sources (they were yet to be released) certainly did, or us today in a fragmented Europe and unstable political landscape where historians would argue no it wasn't but the average bloke down the pub may say it was.
Its just to easy to over simplify the issue and not look at those who fought, why they fought, the world and time they fought in and the world they came back too. For me the change in our class system and the opportunities the working classes were afforded as a bi-product of the Great War are enough for me to say no. It changed the way we live and despite the suffering and loss, which my own family was subjected to, often for the greater good.
Personally, I have always felt that any death during the NI troubles was more of a waste than someone who fought in the Great War but admit my view would be a subjective one so not necessarily the correct one for others.
Nick, it would take weeks of debate to discuss the word 'waste' with regards to the Great War (and I have been at numerous international conferences where we do just that), mostly its about trying to establish a waste in who's eyes? The generation who endured the Great War certainly didn't feel that way, the revisionist historians who came along in the 60's and without access to any sources (they were yet to be released) certainly did, or us today in a fragmented Europe and unstable political landscape where historians would argue no it wasn't but the average bloke down the pub may say it was.
Its just to easy to over simplify the issue and not look at those who fought, why they fought, the world and time they fought in and the world they came back too. For me the change in our class system and the opportunities the working classes were afforded as a bi-product of the Great War are enough for me to say no. It changed the way we live and despite the suffering and loss, which my own family was subjected to, often for the greater good.
Personally, I have always felt that any death during the NI troubles was more of a waste than someone who fought in the Great War but admit my view would be a subjective one so not necessarily the correct one for others.
Nick, it would take weeks of debate to discuss the word 'waste' with regards to the Great War (and I have been at numerous international conferences where we do just that), mostly its about trying to establish a waste in who's eyes? The generation who endured the Great War certainly didn't feel that way, the revisionist historians who came along in the 60's and without access to any sources (they were yet to be released) certainly did, or us today in a fragmented Europe and unstable political landscape where historians would argue no it wasn't but the average bloke down the pub may say it was.
Its just to easy to over simplify the issue and not look at those who fought, why they fought, the world and time they fought in and the world they came back too. For me the change in our class system and the opportunities the working classes were afforded as a bi-product of the Great War are enough for me to say no. It changed the way we live and despite the suffering and loss, which my own family was subjected to, often for the greater good.
Personally, I have always felt that any death during the NI troubles was more of a waste than someone who fought in the Great War but admit my view would be a subjective one so not necessarily the correct one for others.
Clive, my feelings are that what was done was required to be done both in 14-18 and 39-45, but it doesn't stop me looking at the rows and rows of crosses of those dead young men from all sides and crying over the absolute slaughter.
I visited an empty Lommel cemetery on a cold, wet, misty day, looked at the rows and rows of crosses and cried my eyes out. As they say, a picture paints a thousand words.
Nick, it would take weeks of debate to discuss the word 'waste' with regards to the Great War (and I have been at numerous international conferences where we do just that), mostly its about trying to establish a waste in who's eyes? The generation who endured the Great War certainly didn't feel that way, the revisionist historians who came along in the 60's and without access to any sources (they were yet to be released) certainly did, or us today in a fragmented Europe and unstable political landscape where historians would argue no it wasn't but the average bloke down the pub may say it was.
Its just to easy to over simplify the issue and not look at those who fought, why they fought, the world and time they fought in and the world they came back too. For me the change in our class system and the opportunities the working classes were afforded as a bi-product of the Great War are enough for me to say no. It changed the way we live and despite the suffering and loss, which my own family was subjected to, often for the greater good.
Personally, I have always felt that any death during the NI troubles was more of a waste than someone who fought in the Great War but admit my view would be a subjective one so not necessarily the correct one for others.
Clive, my feelings are that what was done was required to be done both in 14-18 and 39-45, but it doesn't stop me looking at the rows and rows of crosses of those dead young men from all sides and crying over the absolute slaughter.
I visited an empty Lommel cemetery on a cold, wet, misty day, looked at the rows and rows of crosses and cried my eyes out. As they say, a picture paints a thousand words.
For those who don't know each of those crosses bears four names.
Would be good if those who have group photos would post them on this thread. I guess we all have personal shots of various things we saw but group photos would be nice.
Shows how well the Commonwealth War Graves Commission have done looking after ours then
Am sure it must have been difficult for the German authorities though to have done similar at the time!!
Clive was able to explain why there are such differences not only in funding for upkeep but also in attitude to the memory of those killed between our two countries.
for me when visiting the WW1 cemeteries I certainly don't think 'what a waste of life' because I feel to do so is somehow diminishing the sacrifices these men made of our behalf. I wander round reading the headstones, and the inscriptions of the names of those with no known grave, feeling immensely proud of them all and at the same time feeling humble in their presence and grateful to them too.
I'd also like to think that they would in turn be thankful to us that we care enough and appreciate their ultimate sacrifice enough that over 100 years on we are visiting them to say thank you.
Shows how well the Commonwealth War Graves Commission have done looking after ours then
Am sure it must have been difficult for the German authorities though to have done similar at the time!!
Clive was able to explain why there are such differences not only in funding for upkeep but also in attitude to the memory of those killed between our two countries.
I used to believe that it was a waste of a generation but through having attended the two CL trips and listening to the wealth of knowledge and information imparted by Clive I have changed my view. I suppose all wars are a waste but given mans propensity for getting into wars the death of mainly young men often defending what they believe is right and just can be viewed as sacrifice rather than waste.
The graves that always bring me up short are those of Jews in German WW1 cemeteries. They fought and died for their country but within a generation that same country would try to exterminate them.
for me when visiting the WW1 cemeteries I certainly don't think 'what a waste of life' because I feel to do so is somehow diminishing the sacrifices these men made of our behalf. I wander round reading the headstones, and the inscriptions of the names of those with no known grave, feeling immensely proud of them all and at the same time feeling humble in their presence and grateful to them too.
I'd also like to think that they would in turn be thankful to us that we care enough and appreciate their ultimate sacrifice enough that over 100 years on we are visiting them to say thank you.
Want to add my thanks to both Neil and Clive for another amazing historical lesson.
Also good to put faces to CL names. Good to catch up again with our Brexit expert (?) @Chippycafc who has amused me over the years with his views on the subject.
Finally, caught up, quite by chance, with a football adversary, from the 1970s - what a remarkable chance meeting, Ian Wallis.
Thanks mate and likewise, and thanks for updating me on the"rules of football"
Comments
A terrific trip which made learning engaging and interesting at every stop. Added to the fine company it was a weekend I won't be forgetting anytime soon.
A huge thanks to Neal, Clive, Dave and Alan for their efforts.
My Millwall supporting mate Mark loved it too and would love to pass on his thanks through me, in reality I think it's because he's still mastering the art of reading and writing, we know what that lot are like!
Its just to easy to over simplify the issue and not look at those who fought, why they fought, the world and time they fought in and the world they came back too. For me the change in our class system and the opportunities the working classes were afforded as a bi-product of the Great War are enough for me to say no. It changed the way we live and despite the suffering and loss, which my own family was subjected to, often for the greater good.
Personally, I have always felt that any death during the NI troubles was more of a waste than someone who fought in the Great War but admit my view would be a subjective one so not necessarily the correct one for others.
What would you know about it?
I visited an empty Lommel cemetery on a cold, wet, misty day, looked at the rows and rows of crosses and cried my eyes out. As they say, a picture paints a thousand words.
Am sure it must have been difficult for the German authorities though to have done similar at the time!!
for me when visiting the WW1 cemeteries I certainly don't think 'what a waste of life' because I feel to do so is somehow diminishing the sacrifices these men made of our behalf. I wander round reading the headstones, and the inscriptions of the names of those with no known grave, feeling immensely proud of them all and at the same time feeling humble in their presence and grateful to them too.
I'd also like to think that they would in turn be thankful to us that we care enough and appreciate their ultimate sacrifice enough that over 100 years on we are visiting them to say thank you.
(written through a blur, got something in my eye)
The graves that always bring me up short are those of Jews in German WW1 cemeteries. They fought and died for their country but within a generation that same country would try to exterminate them.
Thank you all for attending and making this possible.
So pleased the Upbeats got the same.