The thread is organically moving in another direction
I think it's more a case of some residents of Madrid having to hand their sense of humour in at the start of every day
Just seemed a bit irrelevant to the conversation to be honest, but guess it is pretty funny. Maybe it might be one way to get more English managers in the Premier League! At least no one ignored this comment like your previous one about English managers though
You saw through my 'they ignored my first post so I'll have another bash at it'?
EPL is the best league in the world so a club will have the best manager it can afford.
That's taking from a worldwide pool.
So in a worldwide pool of the best managers, English managers represent a small percentage.
So there won't be a lot of English managers in the EPL.
But even if the EPL is the best, surely La Liga isn't far behind and they have far more homegrown coaches.
I think the argument about FA funding for coaches and English players' own managerial ambitions is far more relevant.
If you step down to the Championship and all leagues below... I mean I can't be bothered to do the research myself, but I would hazard to guess 95%+ are British managers. So it's not like there's a lack of them.
Likewise, if you look beyond managers and at the players in Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga... I think you're going to find a far larger proportion of homegrown players than in the EPL. (In fact, if the EPL didn't have laws for a minimum amount of homegrown players in each squad, it'd probably be even less).
The other leagues don't have the luxury of pulling the best players and managers from all over the world, whereas the EPL does.
Of course, why wouldnt Huddersfield appoint the manager of a german reserve team...
"Huddersfield are bottom of the Premier League on 11 points - 10 adrift of safety - with 15 games remaining....."We enjoyed tremendous success under our previous head coach, David Wagner, and we've subsequently appointed a new head coach that bears many similarities to him; a young, aspirational German from Borussia Dortmund II."
PL - 15 (FIFTEEN) C - 4 L1 - 2 (including the Irish Coughlan at Brizzle who's spent most his career over here) L2 - 2 (including the Tunisian Maamria at Stevenage who's spent most his career over here)
I heard a great argument regarding OGS, that was from a diffrent angle. Unfortunately I can't remember who made it. The point was though that there are 2 types of teams and managers. Those that excel at keeping the ball and those that excel when they don't have it.
Big Sam always argued that he could play more expansive football if he had better players but never got the chance to prove it. The top six, especially after the Moyes experiment, we always get a manager with experience of managing with the ball. As they can't, normally take each others managers, it's obvious why they look abroad.
The "smaller" premiership clubs is a different story and probably more worrying. I would imagine it's partly to do with credibility in the dressing room. If Neil Harris rocked up at Huddersfield, for example, would he have any credibility with the players? As I see it the thinking is a Wagner clone would have with Wagners players.
I heard a great argument regarding OGS, that was from a diffrent angle. Unfortunately I can't remember who made it. The point was though that there are 2 types of teams and managers. Those that excel at keeping the ball and those that excel when they don't have it.
Big Sam always argued that he could play more expansive football if he had better players but never got the chance to prove it. The top six, especially after the Moyes experiment, we always get a manager with experience of managing with the ball. As they can't, normally take each others managers, it's obvious why they look abroad.
The "smaller" premiership clubs is a different story and probably more worrying. I would imagine it's partly to do with credibility in the dressing room. If Neil Harris rocked up at Huddersfield, for example, would he have any credibility with the players? As I see it the thinking is a Wagner clone would have with Wagners players.
There is a logic to keeping the same style of manager, I could never see Huddersfield bringing in Big Sam or Hughes to replace Wagner.
Palace for example went from Big Sam to De Boer, and it was a disaster as he was unsuited to their players and playing style. Tragically they quickly rectified this and brought in Hodgson.
Man U have struggled, partially because they replace SAF with managers who play less attacking football, which is what the club and supporters expect. Now they have someone who wants to play the "United way" which automatically gets the fans on side.
Resurrecting this thread from a few years ago as it's very relevant again with (hopefully) a new England manager coming. Looking through the posts here it was a very interesting discussion and thought there might be some more good points a few years on.
Our coaches do the same uefa pro licence as coaches abroad and get plenty of opportunities in the lower tiers but none seem to blast through that ceiling for some reason. When they get an opportunity at the highest level very few cut the mustard. What more can The FA do. You can’t blame PL clubs for playing it safe.
Wonder if the fact that not many of our players go abroad plays a part? Footballing version of travel broadening the mind etc.
Yes some end up playing undee various nationalities of manager, but it's not quite the same of really immersing themselves in different football cultures etc.
I’m guessing it’s partly to do with competition. English clubs, particularly at the very top of the PL have the resources to hire any manager, from any country, that they want. Statistically it’s unlikely that the very best manager(s) are going to conveniently come from this part of a small island.
a generalisation or i m o a truism .. contemporary Englishmen in most fields of activity do not make good managers, too much p c and over pandering to 'workers rights'. Look at the foreign men and women running our major companies and organisations. Our politicians have no clue how to organise the proverbial piss up in .. etc etc
Like Southgate all too often, managers just waste resources and like the sainted Gareth leave their best 'players' on the 'bench'. Of the British, I don't think the Scots have the same issues, I think that they are mentally stronger and tougher. Is Sir Alex still available to manage England ?
a generalisation or i m o a truism .. contemporary Englishmen in most fields of activity do not make good managers, too much p c and over pandering to 'workers rights'. Look at the foreign men and women running our major companies and organisations. Our politicians have no clue how to organise the proverbial piss up in .. etc etc
Like Southgate all too often, managers just waste resources and like the sainted Gareth leave their best 'players' on the 'bench'. Of the British, I don't think the Scots have the same issues, I think that they are mentally stronger and tougher. Is Sir Alex still available to manage England ?
Wonder if the fact that not many of our players go abroad plays a part? Footballing version of travel broadening the mind etc.
Yes some end up playing undee various nationalities of manager, but it's not quite the same of really immersing themselves in different football cultures etc.
The lack of foreign language ability counts against most British managers. So many foreign managers come to the UK already speaking English, whereas unless you're a top name you won't get jobs in the main European countries without speaking the local language.
Wonder if the fact that not many of our players go abroad plays a part? Footballing version of travel broadening the mind etc.
Yes some end up playing undee various nationalities of manager, but it's not quite the same of really immersing themselves in different football cultures etc.
The lack of foreign language ability counts against most British managers. So many foreign managers come to the UK already speaking English, whereas unless you're a top name you won't get jobs in the main European countries without speaking the local language.
I might start a summer language school aimed at footballers and coaches, young players would probably have a better chance at having a crack abroad if they know the language and senior players wouldn’t have the language barrier to overcome when trying to settle in a new country.
I have a theory. Nothing to back it up, just my musings.
It's the actual requirement for a licence, badge, call it what you will.
I can easily imagine that the English guys all go off to do their courses and are "trained" by a very limited number of individuals. All the "pupils" are taught the same techniques and concepts with very little variety and precious little novelty. They get their badges, sure, but all end up as clones of their teachers.
The "badge" becomes all-important but what does it actually bring to the party?
I suspect that at the top-end, they just don't hack it. They just do what the coaching manuals say and exhibit no individualism, flair or ability to think outside the box.
Here's what the FA says on its site about the course for a UEFA Pro Licence as required by the EPL. (A participant has already done the A licence of course.):-
The course breakdown is as follows:
1 day of assessment centre and profiling
3 x 3 day modules
2 x 2 day modules
1 x 4 day final module with graduation
2 x 1 day coach development group meetings
Study visit
Six one-to-one coach development support visits (minimum) are also provided.
Here's what it says you achieve:
What are the learning outcomes?
At the end of this course, you’ll have developed:
Critical self-reflective skills to identify strengths and areas for development
Effective decision making strategies and processes for working in high performing environments
Effective problem-solving methods to thrive in pressurised situations
Leadership skills to provide clear, strategic direction to the people and departments within the football club
Management skills for effective working with multi-disciplinary teams over the short to longer term
World-leading insights into the technical and tactical insights & team strategy
An understanding and application of integrated coaching models and their place in high performing environments
Greater alignment of players and staff to deliver sustained performance
An understanding and application of integrated coaching models and their place in high performing environments
Greater alignment of players and staff to deliver sustained performance
Long-term player development and succession planning
I have serious doubts that spending 3 weeks plus a few "study visits" can get an average individual anywhere near to having the abilities claimed.
Apart from anything else if the tutors were any good, they'd be doing the actual job, not buggering around at the FA.
So if the answer to the question is that PL clubs have the ability to attract the best managers globally, which doesn't include English managers, then presumably none of these guys ever get sack - because they're all so good and play such attractive, expansive, attacking football?
Problem with that view is, only one team can win the league and someone still has to finish bottom every season.
People often ask me here why there are a lack of English managers in the Premier League, and with it being dominated now by Spanish, German, Italian and Argentinean managers amongst others, I am lost for an answer.
No other big league from such a major country has such an absence of managers from its own country - why is this? Lack of interest from former footballers or investment from the FA in qualifying as a manager? Boards trusting foreign managers more? It just seems so strange that so many foreign born coaches are appointed, many who also have to quickly learn the language (which is impressive).
This, along with the lack of success of English managers abroad, is a bit of a mystery to me so I wondered what people on here think the main factors are.
Simple - the amount of money means it’s easy to buy a successful manager and if English managers aren’t given the chance to become successful, that means buying in a foreign one.
People often ask me here why there are a lack of English managers in the Premier League, and with it being dominated now by Spanish, German, Italian and Argentinean managers amongst others, I am lost for an answer.
No other big league from such a major country has such an absence of managers from its own country - why is this? Lack of interest from former footballers or investment from the FA in qualifying as a manager? Boards trusting foreign managers more? It just seems so strange that so many foreign born coaches are appointed, many who also have to quickly learn the language (which is impressive).
This, along with the lack of success of English managers abroad, is a bit of a mystery to me so I wondered what people on here think the main factors are.
Simple - the amount of money means it’s easy to buy a successful manager and if English managers aren’t given the chance to become successful, that means buying in a foreign one.
I’m guessing it’s partly to do with competition. English clubs, particularly at the very top of the PL have the resources to hire any manager, from any country, that they want. Statistically it’s unlikely that the very best manager(s) are going to conveniently come from this part of a small island.
a generalisation or i m o a truism .. contemporary Englishmen in most fields of activity do not make good managers, too much p c and over pandering to 'workers rights'. Look at the foreign men and women running our major companies and organisations. Our politicians have no clue how to organise the proverbial piss up in .. etc etc
Like Southgate all too often, managers just waste resources and like the sainted Gareth leave their best 'players' on the 'bench'. Of the British, I don't think the Scots have the same issues, I think that they are mentally stronger and tougher. Is Sir Alex still available to manage England ?
So not denigrating someone because of their sex, sexuality, or colour, and treating workers well and within the law is bad management?
In fact I'd argue that there are MORE English PL managers currently than you might expect. Gary O'Neil is a good example of someone who could have been an EFL manager but essentially lucked into an opportunity that he took at Bournemouth, then was given another opportunity off the strength of this and exceeded expectations yet again. The Wolves job could so easily have been given elsewhere and likely to a foreign manager
I have a theory. Nothing to back it up, just my musings.
It's the actual requirement for a licence, badge, call it what you will.
I can easily imagine that the English guys all go off to do their courses and are "trained" by a very limited number of individuals. All the "pupils" are taught the same techniques and concepts with very little variety and precious little novelty. They get their badges, sure, but all end up as clones of their teachers.
The "badge" becomes all-important but what does it actually bring to the party?
I suspect that at the top-end, they just don't hack it. They just do what the coaching manuals say and exhibit no individualism, flair or ability to think outside the box.
Here's what the FA says on its site about the course for a UEFA Pro Licence as required by the EPL. (A participant has already done the A licence of course.):-
The course breakdown is as follows:
1 day of assessment centre and profiling
3 x 3 day modules
2 x 2 day modules
1 x 4 day final module with graduation
2 x 1 day coach development group meetings
Study visit
Six one-to-one coach development support visits (minimum) are also provided.
Here's what it says you achieve:
What are the learning outcomes?
At the end of this course, you’ll have developed:
Critical self-reflective skills to identify strengths and areas for development
Effective decision making strategies and processes for working in high performing environments
Effective problem-solving methods to thrive in pressurised situations
Leadership skills to provide clear, strategic direction to the people and departments within the football club
Management skills for effective working with multi-disciplinary teams over the short to longer term
World-leading insights into the technical and tactical insights & team strategy
An understanding and application of integrated coaching models and their place in high performing environments
Greater alignment of players and staff to deliver sustained performance
An understanding and application of integrated coaching models and their place in high performing environments
Greater alignment of players and staff to deliver sustained performance
Long-term player development and succession planning
I have serious doubts that spending 3 weeks plus a few "study visits" can get an average individual anywhere near to having the abilities claimed.
Apart from anything else if the tutors were any good, they'd be doing the actual job, not buggering around at the FA.
Most of the tutors do have jobs and are coaches at clubs and countries already.
That said, our coaches should be encouraged to travel and study.
In fact I'd argue that there are MORE English PL managers currently than you might expect. Gary O'Neil is a good example of someone who could have been an EFL manager but essentially lucked into an opportunity that he took at Bournemouth, then was given another opportunity off the strength of this and exceeded expectations yet again. The Wolves job could so easily have been given elsewhere and likely to a foreign manager
O'Neill is a cracking example especially with Wolves owners favouring continental appointments in the past.
Comments
Damn!!!!
Likewise, if you look beyond managers and at the players in Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga... I think you're going to find a far larger proportion of homegrown players than in the EPL. (In fact, if the EPL didn't have laws for a minimum amount of homegrown players in each squad, it'd probably be even less).
The other leagues don't have the luxury of pulling the best players and managers from all over the world, whereas the EPL does.
"Huddersfield are bottom of the Premier League on 11 points - 10 adrift of safety - with 15 games remaining....."We enjoyed tremendous success under our previous head coach, David Wagner, and we've subsequently appointed a new head coach that bears many similarities to him; a young, aspirational German from Borussia Dortmund II."
Pick the holes in that statement....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_Premier_League_and_English_Football_League_managers
PL - 15 (FIFTEEN)
C - 4
L1 - 2 (including the Irish Coughlan at Brizzle who's spent most his career over here)
L2 - 2 (including the Tunisian Maamria at Stevenage who's spent most his career over here)
It's very much a PL thing
Big Sam always argued that he could play more expansive football if he had better players but never got the chance to prove it. The top six, especially after the Moyes experiment, we always get a manager with experience of managing with the ball. As they can't, normally take each others managers, it's obvious why they look abroad.
The "smaller" premiership clubs is a different story and probably more worrying. I would imagine it's partly to do with credibility in the dressing room. If Neil Harris rocked up at Huddersfield, for example, would he have any credibility with the players? As I see it the thinking is a Wagner clone would have with Wagners players.
Palace for example went from Big Sam to De Boer, and it was a disaster as he was unsuited to their players and playing style. Tragically they quickly rectified this and brought in Hodgson.
Man U have struggled, partially because they replace SAF with managers who play less attacking football, which is what the club and supporters expect. Now they have someone who wants to play the "United way" which automatically gets the fans on side.
Yes some end up playing undee various nationalities of manager, but it's not quite the same of really immersing themselves in different football cultures etc.
Look at the foreign men and women running our major companies and organisations. Our politicians have no clue how to organise the proverbial piss up in .. etc etc
Like Southgate all too often, managers just waste resources and like the sainted Gareth leave their best 'players' on the 'bench'.
Of the British, I don't think the Scots have the same issues, I think that they are mentally stronger and tougher.
Is Sir Alex still available to manage England ?
It's the actual requirement for a licence, badge, call it what you will.
I can easily imagine that the English guys all go off to do their courses and are "trained" by a very limited number of individuals. All the "pupils" are taught the same techniques and concepts with very little variety and precious little novelty. They get their badges, sure, but all end up as clones of their teachers.
The "badge" becomes all-important but what does it actually bring to the party?
I suspect that at the top-end, they just don't hack it. They just do what the coaching manuals say and exhibit no individualism, flair or ability to think outside the box.
Here's what the FA says on its site about the course for a UEFA Pro Licence as required by the EPL. (A participant has already done the A licence of course.):-
The course breakdown is as follows:
- 1 day of assessment centre and profiling
- 3 x 3 day modules
- 2 x 2 day modules
- 1 x 4 day final module with graduation
- 2 x 1 day coach development group meetings
- Study visit
Six one-to-one coach development support visits (minimum) are also provided.Here's what it says you achieve:
What are the learning outcomes?
At the end of this course, you’ll have developed:
- Critical self-reflective skills to identify strengths and areas for development
- Effective decision making strategies and processes for working in high performing environments
- Effective problem-solving methods to thrive in pressurised situations
- Leadership skills to provide clear, strategic direction to the people and departments within the football club
- Management skills for effective working with multi-disciplinary teams over the short to longer term
- World-leading insights into the technical and tactical insights & team strategy
- An understanding and application of integrated coaching models and their place in high performing environments
- Greater alignment of players and staff to deliver sustained performance
- An understanding and application of integrated coaching models and their place in high performing environments
- Greater alignment of players and staff to deliver sustained performance
- Long-term player development and succession planning
I have serious doubts that spending 3 weeks plus a few "study visits" can get an average individual anywhere near to having the abilities claimed.Apart from anything else if the tutors were any good, they'd be doing the actual job, not buggering around at the FA.
Problem with that view is, only one team can win the league and someone still has to finish bottom every season.
Name a successful English manager from the modern game?
O'Neill is a cracking example especially with Wolves owners favouring continental appointments in the past.
2 this century, none since 2008