You just wonder sometimes whether officials let a little emotion come into decisions occasionally. It couldn’t have escaped them that the accrington players were being an utter disgrace all day, including being in the officials’ faces regularly in and unacceptable way. So when the chance came to award a 50/50 penalty in the last minute........just sayin. They are professionals, albeit with varying degrees of competence, but just occasionally their human minds must take over.
A typical game is full of contentious decisions and it doesn't help that you have both sides questioning your ability to make the right ones. You also don't have long to make the decision and I'm sure an inexperienced ref may dwell on some and suspect he may have got them wrong. Teams try to play on this to get decisions their way. Experienced refs will not dwell on decision and think about paying people back but the pressure of situations and decisions can get to many of them IMO because they are human.
You just wonder sometimes whether officials let a little emotion come into decisions occasionally. It couldn’t have escaped them that the accrington players were being an utter disgrace all day, including being in the officials’ faces regularly in and unacceptable way. So when the chance came to award a 50/50 penalty in the last minute........just sayin. They are professionals, albeit with varying degrees of competence, but just occasionally their human minds must take over.
For sure but the man in the middle has to look at himself and ask the question how did that game get out of hand and what could I have done about it? Simple answer have a word with their skipper and get the cards out to make an example of a few of them before it gets out of control. By doing so the officials won't have to worry about their emotions affecting their judgement.
Also the lino that was surrounded getting dogs abuse at the end should have insisted on the perpetrators being booked or sent off we've seen it before why didn't he ask the weak ref to take action? Weak officialdom all round!
If true and surely no one is that sad to make it up , I mean seriously that is fucking pathetic , not that it's excusable in any way but we've just nicked a last minute winner lets go and clump an Accy fan , how brave take it all back if he was giving it
If true and surely no one is that sad to make it up , I mean seriously that is fucking pathetic , not that it's excusable in any way but we've just nicked a last minute winner lets go and clump an Accy fan , how brave take it all back if he was giving it
I abhor violence especially as I am too fat for a speedy tactical withdrawal, but that photo is odd (I don't doubt it happened) he has an odd smile and surely if they want to make a point surely he should look.....erm....beaten up?!?
My pet grouse is the amount of police in Floyd Road after the game,now in spite of a presence worthy of a Royal Wedding or a State visit,An Accrington fan gets attacked and no one is arrested,so what do they do to earn their overtime.
High marks for Purrington on the player marks thread; I thought he looked like a cross between Danny Seabourne and Carl Tiler. Other than being left footed, no better than the Dijksteel-Solly combination
He has been steady and is obviously a natural left footer. It has allowed Solly to revert to his natural side which is a big part of why Bowyer wanted the loan. Both things together make this a better combination than Dijksteel-Solly.
Having any reasonable LB is an improvement over an out of position Solly, though I can't see Purrington keeping Page out of the team when/if he gets fit
High marks for Purrington on the player marks thread; I thought he looked like a cross between Danny Seabourne and Carl Tiler. Other than being left footed, no better than the Dijksteel-Solly combination
He has been steady and is obviously a natural left footer. It has allowed Solly to revert to his natural side which is a big part of why Bowyer wanted the loan. Both things together make this a better combination than Dijksteel-Solly.
Having any reasonable LB is an improvement over an out of position Solly, though I can't see Purrington keeping Page out of the team when/if he gets fit
You may be right but after two games? Can't beat a bit of competition though.
The referee was a pain in the are long before the end. His constant stopping of the game disrupted the flow and we just never built up any momentum.
The 2 save from Phillips were crucial and turning the 1 point into 3 was massive and has opened up a nice gap between 7th place and keeps us well within touch of those above us.
The referee was a pain in the are long before the end. His constant stopping of the game disrupted the flow and we just never built up any momentum.
The 2 save from Phillips were crucial and turning the 1 point into 3 was massive and has opened up a nice gap between 7th place and keeps us well within touch of those above us.
I was talking on the phone with my Dad last night and whilst I wont be surprised if I'm wrong I'll be even less surprised if I'm right
When you compare this season with last it felt as though anyone from 5th down to 9th could have gotten into the Play-Offs whilst Rotherham in fourth were never really that far away had we won just a few more games
This season though it almost feels as though the top six is pretty much confirmed (Peterborough or Doncaster the only change that might happen at the moment?) and its just a matter of deciding which order those six will finish, of course though we're still only in January so still a good chance for another team to come out of no where really.
Late to this so most of what I’d have said about Saturday has been done to death. A few random thoughts though. The hysteria of the last ten minutes and our glorious late win against one of the scummiest outfits I’ve ever seen should not disguise the fact that on the whole we weren’t very good. Our talisman had an off day and our creativity was lacking until we changed up the midfield. We like making hard work of seeing off rubbish teams. It’s cost us this season and it nearly did so again. I can’t help but think that if we’d started the way we finished we’d have scored half a dozen but I guess that’s why LB is manager and I’m not. Victory wasn’t half sweet though!
The ref was competent but weak (I know that’s a bit of a contradiction in terms). I though he got most decisions technically correct but simply failed to punish offenders appropriately. He should have sent off at least three of theirs. The assaults (and I am choosing my words with care) on Lyle and the Lino must be taken further. Their 15’s kicking of Taylor on the floor was crystal clear from my vantage point in the west upper. I’ve never seen so many thermos flasks and tartan rugs brandished in anger. Quite a sight!
Wasn’t overly impressed by Purrington but will not judge for a few games. We need a Page replacement a la Wiggins who can overlap and give us width going forward. Young Ben looks like a reasonable defender but on this showing he’s no Rhoys. But there were signs second half that he might be able to get a cross or two in so we travel hopefully.
Kids for a quid eh! Little seatkicker behind me who must have been less than two. Actually very well behaved but an utter pain shuffling around and listening to “Daddy talk” all game. Seriously, what’s the point in taking someone that young? She’ll have learned a few new words though bless her!
“Handling the ball involves a DELIBERATE act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm."
The point about yesterday is that it was a decision that had to be made and I think the fact the hand moved to the ball and was in a blocking position did for the player, but it is a decision that could have gone either way IMO.
The use of the word “Deliberate” in handball debates has always bothered and irritated me. Pundits often discuss handballs using this word, apparently without knowing what it means. Having said that, the word is in the Law, so I guess we can’t blame them?
Anyway, the law states that handball should be penalised if “deliberate”. Now, “deliberate” in any context is defined as: adjective, meaning “done consciously and intentionally”. However, the laws also state that there are additional factors that a referee must consider to determine whether it’s “deliberate” or not - eg distance and time from where/when the ball is struck and “unnatural arm position”.
So, for a handball to be ruled an offence, it doesn’t strictly have to be “deliberate”. It merely has to be avoidable. Defenders very rarely “consciously and intentionally” handle the ball, they simply aren’t quick enough to get their unnaturally positioned hands out of the way. (Example of an exception to this is Shaun Bartlett’s brilliant save at White Hart Lane. )
Which opens the next can of worms which is whether the defender had time to get his hands out of the way. The referee has to consider the position of the hands AND the time available to avoid handball. At the end of the day, it’s a judgement call as to whether these factors mean the defender could have avoided handball by either keeping his arms in a natural position or having time to withdraw them. In Saturday’s case, the officials felt that he could have avoided handball by either hand position or reaction time (or a combination of these). It’s still contentious, just as many of these decisions are due to the very nature of it being a judgement call. In my opinion, looking at it again, he shouldn’t have his arms there - so it’s a handball.
As for the word “deliberate”, in my opinion the wording of the law should be changed and the word “deliberate” should be replaced by “avoidable”. Allowing, of course, for the defender having the right to challenge an attacker legally.
Excellent post @lordromford - you should become a referee, if you are not already one!
I would like to add a little to your post.First, it is the only offence of the ten listed under Law 12, that includes the word deliberate. The interpretation of the word "deliberate" can be narrated as follows: a deliberate act of denying the ball it's natural course. Secondly, the hand or arm being in an unnatural position, except where the distance between arm and the ball last played is considered to be so close that the defender cannot possibly avoid contact
The "unnatural position" is also an interesting point for debate. I would argue that a position of the arm/hand can be interpreted differently, depending on the circumstance. For example, if a defender standing in a defensive wall has his arm vertical to his body and the ball strikes the arm, then that is handball. Conversely, if a defender is facing an attacker with the ball, it is totally natural to have his arms vertical for better balance and thus able to improve his chances to react to the subsequent movement of the opposing attacker.
But there lies the problem - it is ultimately down to common sense and interpretation, and there will be some variances on this, as there clearly are on here. There are some decisions that you are damned if you do and you are damned if you don't.
Rich Cawley posted that at 5.15pm on Saturday, straight after the match finished.
He's only quoting the normal disciplinary rules - and before any proper video scrutiny and assessment has been made and any club decision whether to appeal.
Sykes kicking a prostrate Lyle Taylor. Kyle Andrews photos should help the appeal against the red card with luck. I also wonder what was captured by Charlton’s GoPro cameras around the goal.
The handball for the penalty was fair in my view. If you try to block a shot with your arms out it’s seen as ‘deliberate’, even if it’s ball to hand, rather than hand to ball. Straightforward really.
I jumped up straightaway but didn't think the ref was going to give it. Having seen it several times, I would have been gutted if it had been given against us. The guy is clearly trying to pull his arm out of the way. I can understand how it was given though. Some you get, some you don't. No excuse for their behaviour afterwards, would think Stanley will asked to 'explain' their player's actions.
Are coaches usually on first name terms with the ref?
I wonder if the ref really said that. I suspect he’s more likely to have said he didn’t see it. If he genuinely didn’t think it was a penalty he would have over-ruled the Lino wouldn’t he?
I thought that, there is no way a ref would say to assistant or coach whatever he is that he didnt think it was a pen.
Personally, I think it was a 70:30 not a penalty. The hand was a bit high and moved to the ball ......
That's the key point, Muttley.
Hand to ball, it's specified in the Laws of the game.
It looks to me though as if he was trying to move his arm away from the ball?
So it looks different to different people and there you have it. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. What I would say is, if it was Accrington who had been given that penalty, we would be moaning about it on here. That doesn't mean it was the wrong decision and on reflection, I think it could have gone either way and we should just be content that it went our way - lots of decisions haven't in the past.
If true and surely no one is that sad to make it up , I mean seriously that is fucking pathetic , not that it's excusable in any way but we've just nicked a last minute winner lets go and clump an Accy fan , how brave take it all back if he was giving it
Someone pointed out he made several tweets that night after the game, not one mention of being jumped by Charlton fans. Bit strange, you think you'd mention it if it just happened...
Yesterday's game brought back memories of the game against Coventry at The Valley back in 1967. The two main differences are that Coventry played like Accrington for the full 90 minutes, and the Charlton side back then just rolled over - unlike Bowyer's Charlton who give as good as they get.
Dirtiest game I have ever seen was V Coventry City at The Valley 1967..... how that ended up with them having 11 on the pitch will remain one of life’s enduring mysteries. George Curtis......what an utter dog and his snidely crafty little lap poodle Brian Lewis wearing the 7 shirt deserved a fucking good hiding.
Are coaches usually on first name terms with the ref?
I wonder if the ref really said that. I suspect he’s more likely to have said he didn’t see it. If he genuinely didn’t think it was a penalty he would have over-ruled the Lino wouldn’t he?
I thought that, there is no way a ref would say to assistant or coach whatever he is that he didnt think it was a pen.
Personally, I think it was a 70:30 not a penalty. The hand was a bit high and moved to the ball ......
That's the key point, Muttley.
Hand to ball, it's specified in the Laws of the game.
It looks to me though as if he was trying to move his arm away from the ball?
But his arm shouldn't have been out at 90 degrees and he moved it too late. What if players in a wall stood there with their arms raised and then couldn't move their arms down quick enough ?
Comments
Also the lino that was surrounded getting dogs abuse at the end should have insisted on the perpetrators being booked or sent off we've seen it before why didn't he ask the weak ref to take action? Weak officialdom all round!
Although finding one reply to him a bit ironic!!
take it all back if he was giving it
The 2 save from Phillips were crucial and turning the 1 point into 3 was massive and has opened up a nice gap between 7th place and keeps us well within touch of those above us.
When you compare this season with last it felt as though anyone from 5th down to 9th could have gotten into the Play-Offs whilst Rotherham in fourth were never really that far away had we won just a few more games
This season though it almost feels as though the top six is pretty much confirmed (Peterborough or Doncaster the only change that might happen at the moment?) and its just a matter of deciding which order those six will finish, of course though we're still only in January so still a good chance for another team to come out of no where really.
The ref was competent but weak (I know that’s a bit of a contradiction in terms). I though he got most decisions technically correct but simply failed to punish offenders appropriately. He should have sent off at least three of theirs. The assaults (and I am choosing my words with care) on Lyle and the Lino must be taken further. Their 15’s kicking of Taylor on the floor was crystal clear from my vantage point in the west upper. I’ve never seen so many thermos flasks and tartan rugs brandished in anger. Quite a sight!
Wasn’t overly impressed by Purrington but will not judge for a few games. We need a Page replacement a la Wiggins who can overlap and give us width going forward. Young Ben looks like a reasonable defender but on this showing he’s no Rhoys. But there were signs second half that he might be able to get a cross or two in so we travel hopefully.
Kids for a quid eh! Little seatkicker behind me who must have been less than two. Actually very well behaved but an utter pain shuffling around and listening to “Daddy talk” all game. Seriously, what’s the point in taking someone that young? She’ll have learned a few new words though bless her!
I would like to add a little to your post.First, it is the only offence of the ten listed under Law 12, that includes the word deliberate. The interpretation of the word "deliberate" can be narrated as follows: a deliberate act of denying the ball it's natural course. Secondly, the hand or arm being in an unnatural position, except where the distance between arm and the ball last played is considered to be so close that the defender cannot possibly avoid contact
The "unnatural position" is also an interesting point for debate. I would argue that a position of the arm/hand can be interpreted differently, depending on the circumstance. For example, if a defender standing in a defensive wall has his arm vertical to his body and the ball strikes the arm, then that is handball. Conversely, if a defender is facing an attacker with the ball, it is totally natural to have his arms vertical for better balance and thus able to improve his chances to react to the subsequent movement of the opposing attacker.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/8238179/accrington-stamp-sam-finley-lyle-taylor-charlton/
That's got to be a lengthy ban, full on intent!
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/84460/dirty-accrington-stamp-on-taylor#latest
:-)
He's only quoting the normal disciplinary rules - and before any proper video scrutiny and assessment has been made and any club decision whether to appeal.
Didn't bring it up until the next day.
What if players in a wall stood there with their arms raised and then couldn't move their arms down quick enough ?