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Charlton v Stoke | Sat 10 Aug 2019 | 3pm KO | POST-MATCH THREAD

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Comments

  • JamesSeed said:

    Thats one hell of a stat. 
    And totally fictitious.  Taylor's worth around £5m - £6m, so the rest, including two loanees from the Premier League, are worth pretty much nothing?
    I think it’s based on what clubs actually paid for players. 
  • edited August 2019
    The passing out from the back is here to stay I think. The other option is to hit long to Taylor or maybe Leko. Nine time out of ten the defenders will win the ball and we are then defending again. Long goal kicks are now seen as merely giving the opposition the ball back and it appears very few managers are willing to do that unless the target man is nailed on to win the ball.
  • The passing out from the back is here to stay I think. The other option is to hit long to Taylor or maybe Leko. Nine time out of ten the defenders will win the ball and we are then defending again. Long goal kicks are now seen as merely giving the opposition the ball back and it appears very few managers are willing to do that unless the target man is nailed on to win the ball.
    I'd rather lose the ball half way up the pitch than get dispossessed in the eighteen yard box. Our players need to work on this as they look ponderous and nervous.
  • JamesSeed said:
    JamesSeed said:

    Thats one hell of a stat. 
    And totally fictitious.  Taylor's worth around £5m - £6m, so the rest, including two loanees from the Premier League, are worth pretty much nothing?
    I think it’s based on what clubs actually paid for players. 
    That figure was banded about before Cullen re signed it's a totally fabricated number produced by transfermarket.com 
  • The passing out from the back is here to stay I think. The other option is to hit long to Taylor or maybe Leko. Nine time out of ten the defenders will win the ball and we are then defending again. Long goal kicks are now seen as merely giving the opposition the ball back and it appears very few managers are willing to do that unless the target man is nailed on to win the ball.
    When Zuma did a pass straight to a United player in his own box yesterday, it will be fun as a neutral but I may look away when Phillips to Pearce and back to Dillion who just stops the ball going into his own net(unlike Wembley!)

    Difficult call but you are correct. Will be an opportunity to see Taylor and the young Leko force a mistake at the other end.

    I would like to see the stat at the end of the first season of the short box free kick.
    The amount of goals scored 10 seconds or less from the kick will go up on last season's tally by 50% as an estimate.

    Interesting times with all these rule changes.
  • The passing out from the back is here to stay I think. The other option is to hit long to Taylor or maybe Leko. Nine time out of ten the defenders will win the ball and we are then defending again. Long goal kicks are now seen as merely giving the opposition the ball back and it appears very few managers are willing to do that unless the target man is nailed on to win the ball.
    When Zuma did a pass straight to a United player in his own box yesterday, it will be fun as a neutral but I may look away when Phillips to Pearce and back to Dillion who just stops the ball going into his own net(unlike Wembley!)

    Difficult call but you are correct. Will be an opportunity to see Taylor and the young Leko force a mistake at the other end.

    I would like to see the stat at the end of the first season of the short box free kick.
    The amount of goals scored 10 seconds or less from the kick will go up on last season's tally by 50% as an estimate.

    Interesting times with all these rule changes.
    I'm hoping our players get more confident with this otherwise the short goalkicks will just be a liability.
  • bobmunro said:
    agim said:
    I wasn't at the game. A result I didn't really expect like last week and after watching the highlights it could easily of been a draw but luck was on our side and we've got a fantastic three points there!
    LB character is really shining through in this team. Full of grit, determination and a little bit of quality, just like his playing style. We will have our ups and downs this season but these opening two games have really given me hope.
    I agree with that - although I would say LB had a bit more than a 'little bit of quality' - he was a top class footballer.
    See I wouldn't of said he was top class. For me that's the Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard of his generation. No doubt he was a good player that's the reason he played in top top division most of his career.
  • The passing out from the back is here to stay I think. The other option is to hit long to Taylor or maybe Leko. Nine time out of ten the defenders will win the ball and we are then defending again. Long goal kicks are now seen as merely giving the opposition the ball back and it appears very few managers are willing to do that unless the target man is nailed on to win the ball.
    I'd prefer the defenders to be further away from the goal when they receive the ball, though Dillon's kicks do leave something to desire, there was one chip to Purrington(?) by the touchline which was impossible for him to control cleanly as it was too high, all he could do was try to keep it in which meant we lost possession in a dangerous position.

    Maybe Dillon should throw the ball out (if he has the ball in his hands) as his throwing is decent enough
  • Redrobo said:
    Philllips ultimately to blame for their goal IMO.

    Kicks long and then ball watches for a long time. Starts heading back to his goal only when their keeper clears it long, but at no great speed. He then has to rush back which means his weight is on the wrong foot when the shot comes in so cannot push off to save it.

    I am sure he is learning from his mistakes, and the Championship is a hard place to learn them. He will be fine though.

    I would add that I thought he got a hand to the shot that hit the post.
    Would love to have one of these imaginary keepers that saves everything and never makes a mistake - trouble is they don't exist. Don't think many keepers would have saved Ince's shot.
    Why do so many people jump on comments dare criticising our home grown players. I agree that Phillips made a mistake yesterday, not as glaringly obvious as the one in the play off final, but a mistake none the less. Lockyer also made a mistake with a poor pass and I'm sure others did too. 

    From what I have seen nobody is calling to Phillips to be dropped or saying he isn't allowed to make mistakes, they are just stating it happened. I have only seen the highlights so not sure on the wind or Phillip's eyeline but at first glance I disagree many keepers wouldn't have saved it, or at least got a decent hand to it. 
    When criticism is OTT I'll call it out - nothing to do with whether the keeper is home grown or not. The way some fans talk you seem to think keepers should save everything - Butland was certainly at fault for our first goal but Ince's shot flew in and perhaps you should focus on that.

    I get sick and tired of some of the criticism of keepers when it comes to shot stopping -  the main issue with Phillips and our defence is the playing the ball around at the back and potentially losing it. Bowyer needs to address how we play out from the back.

    I don’t feel anything has been over the top. It’s a post match thread and some have said Phillips should have done better. It’s not going to be the first time that’s said this season because all players make mistakes. But I think it’s an observation rather then criticism for the most part. 

    Why would I focus on Butlands mistake? He’s not a Charlton player. 
    I was making the point on what was an obvious mistake. I think some fans have unrealistic expectations re keepers and are over critical - if you watch a lot of the world's top keepers you can always argue that saves could have been made if the positioning/anticipation had been better. 





    I do agree with that and there can be a fine line between criticism and just highlighting something. 

    Unfortunately for keepers their mistakes are usually obvious and much more likely to cost the team. 
  • On the playing out from the back - Stoke are tall at the back. A long goal kick ends up coming straight back at us more often than note (as it did for their goal). I think we need to be a lot more careful about it because some of the passing around the back was sloppy on Saturday, BUT get it right and we'll do better than hoofing it. Bloke behind me was shouting "we're not Man City, take a traditional goal kick" but I don't think it is as simple as that. Note that our one corner was taken low and resulted in a goal. I think Bowyer and Jacko did their homework on Stoke hence trying to keep it on the ground. 
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  • The passing out from the back is here to stay I think. The other option is to hit long to Taylor or maybe Leko. Nine time out of ten the defenders will win the ball and we are then defending again. Long goal kicks are now seen as merely giving the opposition the ball back and it appears very few managers are willing to do that unless the target man is nailed on to win the ball.
    I'd prefer the defenders to be further away from the goal when they receive the ball, though Dillon's kicks do leave something to desire, there was one chip to Purrington(?) by the touchline which was impossible for him to control cleanly as it was too high, all he could do was try to keep it in which meant we lost possession in a dangerous position.

    Maybe Dillon should throw the ball out (if he has the ball in his hands) as his throwing is decent enough
    I'm sure the coaching staff will be working on this after Saturday.
  • Of course passing from the back isn’t gonna be as slick as Man City but that’s does not mean it’s not good to do it as I opens up more space in the midfield as the forwards are pressing. It’s knowing when to do it which is most important 
  • JamesSeed said:

    Thats one hell of a stat. 
    And totally fictitious.  Taylor's worth around £5m - £6m, so the rest, including two loanees from the Premier League, are worth pretty much nothing?
    Still nowhere near their value, maybe we're worth £20-30m across our entire side. 
  • Teams are gonna press us high up this year. I dont want that to stop us playing out from the back though. Its an important part of how we play. 
    Exactly this, it's how we create space further up the field. 

    Play it amongst the back 3 and keeper then when a gap opens up, get it to one of our 600 CM players to dribble through space then lay off to one of the 599 remaining CM players before getting it onto either Taylor or the other forward.
  • I'm wondering how LB is going to fit all his loanees into the team. The great Tutt-tutt always says you need several piano lifters to the odd piano player so I would leave Pratley in the team at the moment.
  • I'm wondering how LB is going to fit all his loanees into the team. The great Tutt-tutt always says you need several piano lifters to the odd piano player so I would leave Pratley in the team at the moment.
    Agreed although I suspect that Kayal comes in for him if everyone is fit.  As wonderfully well as Jonny is playing, we know that his fitness record is average so I am sure Field will get plenty of games .  It would also be wrong to expect that Gallagher will be consistently as good as he was on Saturday , given his age.
  • JamesSeed said:
    JamesSeed said:

    Thats one hell of a stat. 
    And totally fictitious.  Taylor's worth around £5m - £6m, so the rest, including two loanees from the Premier League, are worth pretty much nothing?
    I think it’s based on what clubs actually paid for players. 
    It's based on Transfermarket which as just guesses.  IE Mears is worth 200k Euros on there but he's 36 and out of contract.  It is made up fictitious nonsense.
  • edited August 2019
    The decision to play it out from the back is Bowyer's preferred option and he said after the game that it will go wrong at times but he is prepared to live with that. Last week at Blackburn it did as their goal came as an indirect result of Sarr and Pratley overplaying it and conceding the corner for the equaliser.

    Last season away at Fleetwood Phillips turned round to us when some fans were calling for him to play it long to say that he was under strict instructions not to lump it.

    Some defenders and a lot of goalkeepers are not great on the ball, after all their main aim is to prevent goals and clear their lines. Logic says if they were quick thinking creative players they'd either be in midfield or up front, so need to be cut some slack.

    The new goal kick rule does away with the old safety valve of a defender being able to step into the box if under pressure for a short goal kick so that it would have to be retaken, is no longer an option. The answer is a defensive unit needs to give the keeper several options when he's is in possession and I am sure they are working hard on this in training but you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.

    Unless the word comes from the dugout to go long for a spell, the tippy tappy from the back is here to stay whether us fans like it or not. It's Bowyers way and players who don't confirm are likely to be dropped.
  • We're not the biggest team physically (although the likes of Aneke are starting to change that a little) so long balls will be won by towering opposition centre halves more often than not and the oppo will come straight back at us.

    I get the jitters along with everyone else sometimes but can see why Bowyer prefers playing from the back.
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  • The passing out from the back is here to stay I think. The other option is to hit long to Taylor or maybe Leko. Nine time out of ten the defenders will win the ball and we are then defending again. Long goal kicks are now seen as merely giving the opposition the ball back and it appears very few managers are willing to do that unless the target man is nailed on to win the ball.
    I'd rather lose the ball half way up the pitch than get dispossessed in the eighteen yard box. Our players need to work on this as they look ponderous and nervous.
    Taylor/A.N. Other striker doesn't have to be the target, down the middle in traditional style, aiming wide is a decent alternative tactic, Purrington for one has excellent first touch, Williams too can trap a ball stone dead.  Pratting about in our own area immediately attracts pressure, Stoke were wise to it straight away, yet we carried on even with 3, 4 potters in close attendance.  Every clearance doesn't have to be the same, there ought to be enough footballing intelligence in the 11 to minimise these self-created blunders. 
  • Dazzler21 said:
    JamesSeed said:

    Thats one hell of a stat. 
    And totally fictitious.  Taylor's worth around £5m - £6m, so the rest, including two loanees from the Premier League, are worth pretty much nothing?
    Still nowhere near their value, maybe we're worth £20-30m across our entire side. 
    Its not value which is something that is attributed but "cost to acquire" which is measurable. Stoke have spent large on the basis of being funded by BET 365 owners, the Coates family. Given the performance  by the Stoke squad on Saturday i doubt that there will be a significant  accounting  amortisation of the book value which is based on the cost to acquire.  The individuals played to their individual value and played well together.

    The truth is that Bowyer has previously built and is now redeveloping a team. Nathan Jones appears to have acquired a team of valuable individuals that play together. Bowyer is aiming to create a team that is greater than the value of its individual parts. In accounting terms the intangible asset  is team spirit. This was shown the performance on Saturday by Lyle Taylor  who is definitely worth a higher wage than we are paying him and by the joy of each and every player in each others success and support where something went wrong. Lyle Taylor taking time to explain the tunnel jump to Leke is a simple demonstration of this.


    "Value" utterly speculative.  Cost to acquire is measurable but influenced by many factors, all specific to that player/that club/that day.
    For all the evidence that Stoke's squad is so much more expensively assembled, we saw on Saturday precisely how reliable a guide that is to performance, let alone results.
    Stoke looked a decent attacking side and a strong defensively.  Yes, Charlton rode bundles of luck, the score could easily have been 1 - 5 shortly after half-time but tellingly Stoke hit the frame of the goal twice when well placed, hit the goalie from no range at all and blazed way way over.  Their right back (Smith?) tried the cynical 'reducer' on JW, Ince tried diving and rolling around, to no positive result, then when Charlton got their 2nd all the black clad shoulders slumped, the breath visibly shot out of their lungs, chins dropped onto chests.  Nathan Jones may have a costly rosta of strong, able, experienced athletes but I didn't see much of a team.  What Bowyer has is a team.  Doubly laudable when we consider that 4 of that 13 are new, 2 of them arrived less than a week ago, Cullen not new but only back in the building a matter of hours.
    You can keep your headline grabbing signings, your "galacticos"  your mega-budget merchandise racks, Angel Di Maria anybody?  I'll have a dozen and a half proper professionals every time, thanks.  Stick whatever fanciful toytown money price tag on em you like, counts for the square root of two bob when the whistle blows.
  • Oggy Red said:

    Looked like a foul off the ball on Lockyer to set up Stoke's equaliser.


    definitely not a foul, Lockyer simply wasn't strong enough against Gregory who knew exactly what he was doing to win that flick on. Lockyer tried to dart in front of him to nick it and got caught out....he'll learn
  • Addickted said:
    Not sure about the current crop, but I'm reliably informed that Kaikai was worth about 80p.
    But only valued at that high a price if he had a Mars bar in his pocket.
  • Uboat said:
    Plus Chuks:
    you know what. i think williams meant that flick. class
    Totally. Look at the way Williams moves in front of his marker to be first to the ball.

    I'd give the assist to Williams.

  • Williams did mean that. All planned. He is not shaping up to score but to flock it to someone running in (as per the 3rd goal). 
  • edited August 2019
    Cafc43v3r said:
    JamesSeed said:
    JamesSeed said:

    Thats one hell of a stat. 
    And totally fictitious.  Taylor's worth around £5m - £6m, so the rest, including two loanees from the Premier League, are worth pretty much nothing?
    I think it’s based on what clubs actually paid for players. 
    That figure was banded about before Cullen re signed it's a totally fabricated number produced by transfermarket.com 
    Henry Irving said:
    JamesSeed said:
    JamesSeed said:

    Thats one hell of a stat. 
    And totally fictitious.  Taylor's worth around £5m - £6m, so the rest, including two loanees from the Premier League, are worth pretty much nothing?
    I think it’s based on what clubs actually paid for players. 
    It's based on Transfermarket which as just guesses.  IE Mears is worth 200k Euros on there but he's 36 and out of contract.  It is made up fictitious nonsense.
    Rule one:
    Never let the facts spoil a good story.

    The rat shelled out two bob for our brilliant team, and Stoke are worth over £100m

    And we still stuffed ‘em. 

    Awright!?
  • edited August 2019
    Oggy Red said:
    Uboat said:
    Plus Chuks:
    you know what. i think williams meant that flick. class
    Totally. Look at the way Williams moves in front of his marker to be first to the ball.

    I'd give the assist to Williams.

    Williams gets the assist whether he meant it or not.
    If he did mean it he’s a genius.  

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