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Electric Cars

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  • edited November 2024
    Hex said:
    Have you any suggestions how we might get around the defensiveness of the I-won't-get-an-EV crowd ?


    You said yourself the transition is a process. They'll diminish in number over time as the option to resist becomes harder.

    IMO Consumerism exploiting finite earth resources will continue to accelerate climate change. Until we start living in balance with nature and not exploiting it for unsustainable growth, we're done for, EV's or not.
  • I think we agree that the current iteration of EVs is not the final solution.  Far from it.  But it is a necessary part of a process to save the planet.  My difficulty ignoring the nay-sayers is their arguments are fueled by misinformation which they seem happy to believe.  They are, apparantly, willing to help build a narrative that will damage or destroy the planet.
  • Instead of telling us to buy EV cars as there will eventually be technology to charge it, why not get the technology installed and say buy EV cars, because it is so easy to charge 
  • I think the die is cast on that already. Manufacturers are already scaling down ICE production and while there will be ICE vehicles on the road for many years after production has stopped I think they’ll be taxed into oblivion. Interested to know why you use the word never. 
    Manufacturers are being forced down this path, not by market forces, but by government tariffs. 

    The demand isn't there from consumers.

    There is no plan from our government to upgrade the electricity supply needed.

    There is no strategy to implement the charging points infrastructure. 

    My understanding is that there isn't enough raw materials to replace all the world's vehicles with EVs.

    All of the above issues need to be addressed before EVs take the place of ICE vehicles. I don't believe that it will happen in my lifetime, and probably ever.

    There are areas of the world that struggle to get any electricity, let alone enough to power vehicles as well.

    Just perhaps there maybe a technological revolution in batteries and a huge investment in charging infrastructure, power supply and cable free charging? I don't see it. EVs will go the way of Beta videos or minidiscs, something better will come along, something practical that consumers buy into, such as hydrogen or synthetic fuel to run all those billions of ICE powered vehicles already on the road.

    Now wouldn't that be green, to step back from chucking away all that embedded carbon?
  • Hex said:
    So providing you get suitable rewards you’ll be happy to play your part in saving our planet ?
    I have zero interest in owning an EV myself. I'm happy for others to drive them and they can make sense for people who rarely travel beyond their immediate area, particularly cities.

    I'm not sold on your premise that EVs will 'save the planet'. I don't buy it in the slightest.

    All too often, this type of rhetoric comes from people who take to a plane several times a year and probably eat meat.

    All the time we have virtue signalling political masters using huge quantity of carbon to have self congratulatory jollies around the world in the name of forcing me to reduce my carbon footprint (COP), all the time we have major conflict around the world, all the time we all buy our shiny new carbon saving equipment from the other side of the world rather than produce it locally, all the time that too many of us chuck things away because they are so last week, and all the time that our world population is already far too big for the earth's resources, with nobody trying to address that, then I'm not going to self flagellate because I want to ride a 45yr old motorbike or drive a diesel Transit for work.
  • Hex said:
    I think we agree that the current iteration of EVs is not the final solution.  Far from it.  But it is a necessary part of a process to save the planet.  My difficulty ignoring the nay-sayers is their arguments are fueled by misinformation which they seem happy to believe.  They are, apparantly, willing to help build a narrative that will damage or destroy the planet.
    I have only spoken about my personal experience and leading professional research into Lithium Ion batteries by academics, I am far from a Climate Change denier.  I have been to a Tesla in Thermal Runaway and it honestly terrifies me in retrospect, as for the future hopefully the volatile aspect will be curtailed.
  • edited November 2024
    The problem with hydrogen fuel is it is difficult to produce. We have electricity so you can make electric cars now. Toyota seem to be putting a lot of their eggs in the hydrogen basket and this is the technology I think will win out. Things have to be sorted out/invented before hydrogen is viable but when that happens batteries go out the window immediately. Let us not forget that hydrogen powers electric engines but these cars won't need batteries which have questionable green credentials. In the meantime I think people should be encouraged to keep their petrol cars longer but the car industry doesn't like this and it has nothing to do with saving the planet. They have been actively designing cars for the last 10/15 years which don't last as long when they were actually getting more and more reliable before that.
  • edited November 2024
    Carter said:
    Nobody is chucking out alarmism or hyperbole. It’s a discussion and people are putting points across until the defensiveness starts. 
    ‘Twas just a whimsical aside but all the stuff about heavier electric cars crushing the country beneath their tyres is just alarmism.

    Whereas the concerns about batteries are totally legitimate. There isn’t enough lithium in the world to make the batteries we need so something else needs to come along. 
  • Seems to me that an awful lot of money and energy (no pun intended) is being put into the EV revolution for something that many of us think has no future.
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  • The problem with hydrogen fuel is it is difficult to produce. We have electricity so you can make electric cars now. Toyota seem to be putting a lot of their eggs in the hydrogen basket and this is the technology I think will win out. Things have to be sorted out/invented before hydrogen is viable but when that happens batteries go out the window immediately. Let us not forget that hydrogen powers electric engines but these cars won't need batteries which have questionable green credentials. In the meantime I think people should be encouraged to keep their petrol cars longer but the car industry doesn't like this and it has nothing to do with saving the planet. They have been actively designing cars for the last 10/15 years which don't last as long when they were actually getting more and more reliable before that.
    My son in law is involved in the Extreme E motor sport business. He says they are replacing EV sports vehicles with hydrogen powered vehicles from next year. 
    Current Hydogen powered vehicles are in fact battery powered, the cells charge the battery instead of electricity. The new Hydrogen sports cars will have cells that inject the gas straight into the engine so returning to the combustion engine model. Current Hydrogen cars are 0 - 60 eventually, so can’t cut it for racing.

    its still expensive to make hydrogen though, which needs lots of power, so isn’t without challenges.
  • HexHex
    edited November 2024
    Going slightly off-topic, the introduction of energy-saving light bulbs was an important step in producing much more energy efficient and therefore environmentally preferable lighting.  At the time we could not say they were better looking.  We were not told that they were environmentally suspect.  But they changed our mentality regarding energy efficiency and reducing electricity demands.  Many didn’t transition willingly, the government having to require the electricity companies to supply some to households free of charge.  BUT they filled a gap while white LEDs were invented.

    EVs are much the same except their introduction has the time-limiting problems of global warming in the background.  The main difference is the role that misinformation is playing in creating an anti-EV narrative.  That’s dangerous.  Look what the 25 year campaign of anti-EU nonsense achieved.

    I’m not suggesting we force people to buy EVs.  I’m not saying batteries do not have environmental issues to be overcome.  Range needs to increase as does the infrastructure.  But if you were pondering going EV and using this thread as guidance then you may not realise that many of the reasons put forward to not do so are either misleading or just not true.  The EU debate showed us that if you repeat lies often enough then they become the ‘truth’.  The planet cannot allow this ‘truth’ to win out.
  • I am ready and willing to be convinced but my starting point is misstrust. I think that is the right starting point.
  • Hex said:
    Going slightly off-topic, the introduction of energy-saving light bulbs was an important step in producing much more energy efficient and therefore environmentally preferable lighting.  At the time we could not say they were better looking.  We were not told that they were environmentally suspect.  But they changed our mentality regarding energy efficiency and reducing electricity demands.  Many didn’t transition willingly, the government having to require the electricity companies to supply some to households free of charge.  BUT they filled a gap while white LEDs were invented.

    EVs are much the same except their introduction has the time-limiting problems of global warming in the background.  The main difference is the role that misinformation is playing in creating an anti-EV narrative.  That’s dangerous.  Look what the 25 year campaign of anti-EU nonsense achieved.

    I’m not suggesting we force people to buy EVs.  I’m not saying batteries do not have environmental issues to be overcome.  Range needs to increase as does the infrastructure.  But if you were pondering going EV and using this thread as guidance then you may not realise that many of the reasons put forward to not do so are either misleading or just not true.  The EU debate showed us that if you repeat lies often enough then they become the ‘truth’.  The planet cannot allow this ‘truth’ to win out.
    I would say that I’m a pretty average retired person. We have one vehicle which needs to be large enough for us both and three grandchildren. (We do several school runs a week). I’m in the market for a new car early next year. Our house has a drive. Home charging won’t be an issue. Range on my trips to both London and Devon for family visits will be. Family in both places don’t have charging as both are terraced houses. When I visit I’ll have to find a charging point and enough time to charge up the battery. No idea how long that will take. Small inconvenience? Not for me. I think it’s enough to put me off an EV for now. I’m perfectly happy to accept that some of the concerns are being overplayed but range and ease and availability of charging is major for me. 
  • Hex said:
    Going slightly off-topic, the introduction of energy-saving light bulbs was an important step in producing much more energy efficient and therefore environmentally preferable lighting.  At the time we could not say they were better looking.  We were not told that they were environmentally suspect.  But they changed our mentality regarding energy efficiency and reducing electricity demands.  Many didn’t transition willingly, the government having to require the electricity companies to supply some to households free of charge.  BUT they filled a gap while white LEDs were invented.

    EVs are much the same except their introduction has the time-limiting problems of global warming in the background.  The main difference is the role that misinformation is playing in creating an anti-EV narrative.  That’s dangerous.  Look what the 25 year campaign of anti-EU nonsense achieved.

    I’m not suggesting we force people to buy EVs.  I’m not saying batteries do not have environmental issues to be overcome.  Range needs to increase as does the infrastructure.  But if you were pondering going EV and using this thread as guidance then you may not realise that many of the reasons put forward to not do so are either misleading or just not true.  The EU debate showed us that if you repeat lies often enough then they become the ‘truth’.  The planet cannot allow this ‘truth’ to win out.
    Anyone seriously considering buying an EV would be well advised to conduct broader research than looking for advice in this place. However, there's no substitute for practical experience, so posts from those who were open minded enough to take the plunge and buy one are the ones to take most notice of.

    I'm not going to post anything else here that might help dissuade anyone from buying an EV though. 
  • I would say that I’m a pretty average retired person. We have one vehicle which needs to be large enough for us both and three grandchildren. (We do several school runs a week). I’m in the market for a new car early next year. Our house has a drive. Home charging won’t be an issue. Range on my trips to both London and Devon for family visits will be. Family in both places don’t have charging as both are terraced houses. When I visit I’ll have to find a charging point and enough time to charge up the battery. No idea how long that will take. Small inconvenience? Not for me. I think it’s enough to put me off an EV for now. I’m perfectly happy to accept that some of the concerns are being overplayed but range and ease and availability of charging is major for me. 
    I was/am in a similar position to you so I don't disagree with your decision.  In May 23 we ordered our Volvo (est 5-8mths).  We had one longish trip to Wiltshire 2 or 3 times a year which would have required recharging.  The MiL had a drive but 3Kw charging is very slow so we would have to use public chargers in town, some 10-15mins walk. I've just checked and 14 of 15 are available.  Unfortunately MiL died before the Volvo was delivered so we haven't put the theory into practice.  I think the 'lack of infrastructure' is being overplayed for the average driver but I am basing that on what I personally have witnessed and read.
  • Hex said:
    I was/am in a similar position to you so I don't disagree with your decision.  In May 23 we ordered our Volvo (est 5-8mths).  We had one longish trip to Wiltshire 2 or 3 times a year which would have required recharging.  The MiL had a drive but 3Kw charging is very slow so we would have to use public chargers in town, some 10-15mins walk. I've just checked and 14 of 15 are available.  Unfortunately MiL died before the Volvo was delivered so we haven't put the theory into practice.  I think the 'lack of infrastructure' is being overplayed for the average driver but I am basing that on what I personally have witnessed and read.
    Overplayed?
    My friend in Lincolnshire has an EV. He decided not to drive it to us in Devon because the nearest public charger is 8 miles away.
  • One can charge from a 3 pin socket. Takes longer but good for top ups if no other option is available.
  • MrOneLung said:
    Instead of telling us to buy EV cars as there will eventually be technology to charge it, why not get the technology installed and say buy EV cars, because it is so easy to charge 
    Good idea. The government could put up taxes to pay for it whilst blaming the previous government for not doing it. Obviously taxpayers will probably no longer have the disposable income to buy an EV, or an ICE for that matter, so the number of chargers to cars ratio will be even better.
  • Not quite how I look at it!

    The government are telling us to do anything. They are, however, introducing a ban on the manufacture of machines that cause environmental harm and long term damage to the environment.  Just like you cannot use CFC's in fridges.

    Fuel tax is effectively dropping because it does not rise with inflation.
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  • Hex said:
    I was/am in a similar position to you so I don't disagree with your decision.  In May 23 we ordered our Volvo (est 5-8mths).  We had one longish trip to Wiltshire 2 or 3 times a year which would have required recharging.  The MiL had a drive but 3Kw charging is very slow so we would have to use public chargers in town, some 10-15mins walk. I've just checked and 14 of 15 are available.  Unfortunately MiL died before the Volvo was delivered so we haven't put the theory into practice.  I think the 'lack of infrastructure' is being overplayed for the average driver but I am basing that on what I personally have witnessed and read.
    I have to ask, why were you even thinking about visiting your MiL?
  • I have to ask, why were you even thinking about visiting your MiL?
    Happy wife, happy life.
  • Happy wife, happy life.
    Sainthood requires more than just pleasing your Mrs. 
  • I have to ask, why were you even thinking about visiting your MiL?
    It's a chance to give the thermals and sundry other warmth retaining clothes a run out, but if it's not the summer ....
  • I have zero interest in owning an EV myself. I'm happy for others to drive them and they can make sense for people who rarely travel beyond their immediate area, particularly cities.

    I'm not sold on your premise that EVs will 'save the planet'. I don't buy it in the slightest.

    All too often, this type of rhetoric comes from people who take to a plane several times a year and probably eat meat.

    All the time we have virtue signalling political masters using huge quantity of carbon to have self congratulatory jollies around the world in the name of forcing me to reduce my carbon footprint (COP), all the time we have major conflict around the world, all the time we all buy our shiny new carbon saving equipment from the other side of the world rather than produce it locally, all the time that too many of us chuck things away because they are so last week, and all the time that our world population is already far too big for the earth's resources, with nobody trying to address that, then I'm not going to self flagellate because I want to ride a 45yr old motorbike or drive a diesel Transit for work.
    TT, don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. People who give up meat might be helping the planet, people who don’t fly on planes might be helping the planet, people ditching polluting cars might be helping the planet, people who by locally produced goods might be helping save the planet, but not many people will do all of these things. But every little helps.
    And of course, no one has ever claimed that EVs alone will save the planet. 
  • JamesSeed said:
    TT, don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. People who give up meat might be helping the planet, people who don’t fly on planes might be helping the planet, people ditching polluting cars might be helping the planet, people who by locally produced goods might be helping save the planet, but not many people will do all of these things. But every little helps.
    And of course, no one has ever claimed that EVs alone will save the planet. 
    Hex has literally claimed that EVs will save the planet on this thread(at least twice), hence my wording.

    BTW, I'm for all doing our bit and agree that it's not like that everyone will buy into all the recommended ways to improve things.

    As I've said a number of times though, the biggest problem by far is world population explosion,  nothing else matters without that being addressed. 
  • I've never seen a wheelchair in our street. Ahh that's alright then. Just a minor inconvenience if one does decide to turn up 👍
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