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Electric Cars

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  • Hex
    Hex Posts: 1,938
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    Another moan on modern cars is those tablet like screens that seem compulsary in the middle of the dash. Firstly, they are ugly, I am convinced people don't appreciate the ergonomics in cars and like these beacuse everybody else has one. It is like buying a big ugly car with horrible styling. It is the blind leading the blind. But above that, I prefer a car with switches and buttons. If one goes wrong, which they rarely do you can replace them cheaply. Those screens will cost thousands to replace as they won't be repairable when they go wrong and they are not standard. Many of the cars functions are integrated into the screens. They are ultimately a money saving option for car manufacturers that they have persuaded the sheep that they need. I think touchcreens should be for sat navs and entertainment only.

    I also understand that with some modern cars they send your driving style data which manufacturers can sell to insurers! On top of that, Peugeot have introduced a gear box that has to be replaced and cannot be repaired. The cost of this? About £5k. A EV battery that lasts for 12 years means that car is going to last for 12 years as battery replacement with its costs at that point will not be viable with ICE cars much older than that running fine. There are actually cars being sold that will cost hundreds to replace a light as it runds through the computer system than can need reprogramming! Nissan have actually removed features from as young as 3 year old cars as it is just the same as turning off an app. You can't do this with switches and buttons!
    I wouldn't seek to convince you that so much of what you say is wrong because your stubbornness will be an impenetrable barrier until your are forced to own a modern car, particularly an EV.  I do wonder if your conversion to cars from your pony and trap was as difficult as this next move. ;-)
  • last_line
    last_line Posts: 616
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    Another moan on modern cars is those tablet like screens that seem compulsary in the middle of the dash. Firstly, they are ugly, I am convinced people don't appreciate the ergonomics in cars and like these beacuse everybody else has one. It is like buying a big ugly car with horrible styling. It is the blind leading the blind. But above that, I prefer a car with switches and buttons. If one goes wrong, which they rarely do you can replace them cheaply. Those screens will cost thousands to replace as they won't be repairable when they go wrong and they are not standard. Many of the cars functions are integrated into the screens. They are ultimately a money saving option for car manufacturers that they have persuaded the sheep that they need. I think touchcreens should be for sat navs and entertainment only.

    I also understand that with some modern cars they send your driving style data which manufacturers can sell to insurers! On top of that, Peugeot have introduced a gear box that has to be replaced and cannot be repaired. The cost of this? About £5k. A EV battery that lasts for 12 years means that car is going to last for 12 years as battery replacement with its costs at that point will not be viable with ICE cars much older than that running fine. There are actually cars being sold that will cost hundreds to replace a light as it runs through the computer system than can need reprogramming! Nissan have actually removed features from as young as 3 year old cars as it is just the same as turning off an app. You can't do this with switches and buttons! Actually with some makes such as Ford, the wiring for the button is in the car with the button a blank. With these you can get the button and activate the feature sold in more expensive versions!
    Don't get one then!
  • Carter
    Carter Posts: 14,522
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    Another moan on modern cars is those tablet like screens that seem compulsary in the middle of the dash. Firstly, they are ugly, I am convinced people don't appreciate the ergonomics in cars and like these beacuse everybody else has one. It is like buying a big ugly car with horrible styling. It is the blind leading the blind. But above that, I prefer a car with switches and buttons. If one goes wrong, which they rarely do you can replace them cheaply. Those screens will cost thousands to replace as they won't be repairable when they go wrong and they are not standard. Many of the cars functions are integrated into the screens. They are ultimately a money saving option for car manufacturers that they have persuaded the sheep that they need. I think touchcreens should be for sat navs and entertainment only.

    I also understand that with some modern cars they send your driving style data which manufacturers can sell to insurers! On top of that, Peugeot have introduced a gear box that has to be replaced and cannot be repaired. The cost of this? About £5k. A EV battery that lasts for 12 years means that car is going to last for 12 years as battery replacement with its costs at that point will not be viable with ICE cars much older than that running fine. There are actually cars being sold that will cost hundreds to replace a light as it runs through the computer system than can need reprogramming! Nissan have actually removed features from as young as 3 year old cars as it is just the same as turning off an app. You can't do this with switches and buttons! Actually with some makes such as Ford, the wiring for the button is in the car with the button a blank. With these you can get the button and activate the feature sold in more expensive versions!
    All valid points and has annoyed me for a while with newer and newer cars let alone electric ones. Those screens I cannot see how they are not a distraction given how many things that used to be done with knows, buttons, dials and switches now need attention to be taken from the road to a screen. Saves the manufacturing cost though which definitely gets passed on. 

    I accept battery technology is improving. The longevity if these vehicles and maintenance viability has to markedly improve, we lose vehicles off the road for weeks at a time on EVs compared to diesel vans for things that should be easy fixes. 
  • bobmunro
    bobmunro Posts: 21,563
    There was a move away from buttons and dials to get a 'clean' look but some seem to be creeping back. The big iPad stuck on the dash is being replaced with in-dash screens that wrap around more.
     
    Also, the vast majority of cars built today have many controls on the steering wheel and are equipped with very effective voice recognition software being able to adjust temperature, change a radio station or pick out a track or album on your Apple Car Play (other streaming services are available!) and set the sat nav - which covers pretty much the only things you might need to adjust while the car is moving.
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 48,098
    edited April 5
    I think the future should be hydrogen. The engine technology is ready, it is just infrastructure. You fill the car up with liquid hydrogen, it mixes with the air and produces water that you could technically drink. It takes no longer to fill than a petrol car. Rather than spend time on battery technology using elements found in China and Russia we should be working out how to get liquid Hydrogen on the refuelling grid. Also the companies selling you these fully featured new cars, EV and ICE are now selling the same principle as washing machines in the way they are produced, with built in obsolesence. This is why older cars are holding their value so well. Repairable cars will become very sought after.
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 48,098
    edited April 5
    Hex said:
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    Another moan on modern cars is those tablet like screens that seem compulsary in the middle of the dash. Firstly, they are ugly, I am convinced people don't appreciate the ergonomics in cars and like these beacuse everybody else has one. It is like buying a big ugly car with horrible styling. It is the blind leading the blind. But above that, I prefer a car with switches and buttons. If one goes wrong, which they rarely do you can replace them cheaply. Those screens will cost thousands to replace as they won't be repairable when they go wrong and they are not standard. Many of the cars functions are integrated into the screens. They are ultimately a money saving option for car manufacturers that they have persuaded the sheep that they need. I think touchcreens should be for sat navs and entertainment only.

    I also understand that with some modern cars they send your driving style data which manufacturers can sell to insurers! On top of that, Peugeot have introduced a gear box that has to be replaced and cannot be repaired. The cost of this? About £5k. A EV battery that lasts for 12 years means that car is going to last for 12 years as battery replacement with its costs at that point will not be viable with ICE cars much older than that running fine. There are actually cars being sold that will cost hundreds to replace a light as it runds through the computer system than can need reprogramming! Nissan have actually removed features from as young as 3 year old cars as it is just the same as turning off an app. You can't do this with switches and buttons!
    I wouldn't seek to convince you that so much of what you say is wrong because your stubbornness will be an impenetrable barrier until your are forced to own a modern car, particularly an EV.  I do wonder if your conversion to cars from your pony and trap was as difficult as this next move. ;-)
    I am pointing things out that are true. I am not against EVs. I think an EV that you can plug in overnight and gets you to work, the shops and back is a great option for people whose life fits it. Hydrogen cell cars are electric. I am just pointing out that the direction many car companies are taking will bite a lot of people in the backside in a few years. And the introduction of screens was not for a clean look, it is far cheaper to produce for the car companies. People see them in every car and think a car has to have them if it is decent.
  • bobmunro
    bobmunro Posts: 21,563
    edited April 5
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    Hex said:
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    Another moan on modern cars is those tablet like screens that seem compulsary in the middle of the dash. Firstly, they are ugly, I am convinced people don't appreciate the ergonomics in cars and like these beacuse everybody else has one. It is like buying a big ugly car with horrible styling. It is the blind leading the blind. But above that, I prefer a car with switches and buttons. If one goes wrong, which they rarely do you can replace them cheaply. Those screens will cost thousands to replace as they won't be repairable when they go wrong and they are not standard. Many of the cars functions are integrated into the screens. They are ultimately a money saving option for car manufacturers that they have persuaded the sheep that they need. I think touchcreens should be for sat navs and entertainment only.

    I also understand that with some modern cars they send your driving style data which manufacturers can sell to insurers! On top of that, Peugeot have introduced a gear box that has to be replaced and cannot be repaired. The cost of this? About £5k. A EV battery that lasts for 12 years means that car is going to last for 12 years as battery replacement with its costs at that point will not be viable with ICE cars much older than that running fine. There are actually cars being sold that will cost hundreds to replace a light as it runds through the computer system than can need reprogramming! Nissan have actually removed features from as young as 3 year old cars as it is just the same as turning off an app. You can't do this with switches and buttons!
    I wouldn't seek to convince you that so much of what you say is wrong because your stubbornness will be an impenetrable barrier until your are forced to own a modern car, particularly an EV.  I do wonder if your conversion to cars from your pony and trap was as difficult as this next move. ;-)
    I am pointing things out that are true. I am not against EVs. I think an EV that you can plug in overnight and gets you to work, the shops and back is a great option for people whose life fits it. Hydrogen cell cars are electric. I am just pointing out that the direction many car companies are taking will bite a lot of people in the backside in a few years. And the introduction of screens was not for a clean look, it is far cheaper to produce for the car companies. People see them in every car and think a car has to have them if it is decent.
    I do not agree that hydrogen fuel cell technology is the future for cars - perhaps, trains, road haulage or even aircraft.
    Much more likely is solid state battery technology giving longer range, much faster charging, and without the need to use rare earth metals - lots of current research and development in this area. As long as the electricity source for charging is from increasingly renewable sources of course. Lifespans predicted for solid state batteries are in decades rather than 5-8 years.

  • jimmymelrose
    jimmymelrose Posts: 10,127
    We’ve had our MG4  electric car for over 5 months now.

    My only gripe is with the touchscreen because with the movement of the car I often miss the smaller buttons, and this takes my eyes off the road more. This is only really a problem with the over the speed limit pinging noise that I have to turn off every time I start up again. I don’t consider myself a fast driver; there are just too many 30km/h speed limits in our town. Many zones have decreased from 50 to 30 and some from 70 to 50. This, as I said, is my only gripe, otherwise my wife and I both love it.

    So far we’ve not done more than a 2 hours return trip though. The test will come in August when we plan to drive 6.5 hours one way for a week’s holiday. For the first time I will have to plan some stops and use a fast charger.
  • fadgadget
    fadgadget Posts: 1,448
    We have a Mokka e , and they have physical buttons for a lot of the functions, saves having to go into menus and sub menus on the screen
  • IdleHans
    IdleHans Posts: 11,310
    We bought a 2022 Kia Xceed for Mrs idle yesterday following the demise of her 2007 Focus (uneconomic clutch repair).
    This seems to have a decent balance between physical buttons, which feel very well put together, and the touchscreen so I'm interested to see how that works. We don't collect until Monday week.
    The thing that surprised me the most was opening the glovebox and finding an owners handbook about an inch and a half thick!

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  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 51,015
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    I think the future should be hydrogen. The engine technology is ready, it is just infrastructure. You fill the car up with liquid hydrogen, it mixes with the air and produces water that you could technically drink. It takes no longer to fill than a petrol car. Rather than spend time on battery technology using elements found in China and Russia we should be working out how to get liquid Hydrogen on the refuelling grid. Also the companies selling you these fully featured new cars, EV and ICE are now selling the same principle as washing machines in the way they are produced, with built in obsolesence. This is why older cars are holding their value so well. Repairable cars will become very sought after.
    And presumably more expensive and therefore become the preserve of the rich or the enthusiast that see cars as a passion rather than a tool. I actually think most people like their up to date comforts and I don’t see things being that much of a problem with the new technologies as far as driving is concerned. There have always been car owners that hang onto their cars as long as they can and “run them into the ground” and others that like to change on a fairly regular basis. I don’t really see much changing in that respect. In my own personal view the spec and general pleasure of owning a car is far better over the last ten years than it’s ever been. 
  • gringo
    gringo Posts: 984
    IdleHans said:
    We bought a 2022 Kia Xceed for Mrs idle yesterday following the demise of her 2007 Focus (uneconomic clutch repair).
    This seems to have a decent balance between physical buttons, which feel very well put together, and the touchscreen so I'm interested to see how that works. We don't collect until Monday week.
    The thing that surprised me the most was opening the glovebox and finding an owners handbook about an inch and a half thick!
    lucky to get a handbook, mostly online now.
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 48,098
    edited April 6
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    I think the future should be hydrogen. The engine technology is ready, it is just infrastructure. You fill the car up with liquid hydrogen, it mixes with the air and produces water that you could technically drink. It takes no longer to fill than a petrol car. Rather than spend time on battery technology using elements found in China and Russia we should be working out how to get liquid Hydrogen on the refuelling grid. Also the companies selling you these fully featured new cars, EV and ICE are now selling the same principle as washing machines in the way they are produced, with built in obsolesence. This is why older cars are holding their value so well. Repairable cars will become very sought after.
    And presumably more expensive and therefore become the preserve of the rich or the enthusiast that see cars as a passion rather than a tool. I actually think most people like their up to date comforts and I don’t see things being that much of a problem with the new technologies as far as driving is concerned. There have always been car owners that hang onto their cars as long as they can and “run them into the ground” and others that like to change on a fairly regular basis. I don’t really see much changing in that respect. In my own personal view the spec and general pleasure of owning a car is far better over the last ten years than it’s ever been. 
    What will change with certain cars is their resale value will go down in relation to their shorter life span and difficulty in repair. Like a washing machine, they will be reliable for the first 5 years, but then they become a risky buy. But new cars are not cheap of course. It isn't just EVs, it is a lot of new ICEs. What a lot of car companies want is their dealers being the only ones who can diagnose and fix their cars. They even design screws that are unique to them. 
  • Hex
    Hex Posts: 1,938
    bobmunro said:
    There was a move away from buttons and dials to get a 'clean' look but some seem to be creeping back. The big iPad stuck on the dash is being replaced with in-dash screens that wrap around more.
     
    Also, the vast majority of cars built today have many controls on the steering wheel and are equipped with very effective voice recognition software being able to adjust temperature, change a radio station or pick out a track or album on your Apple Car Play (other streaming services are available!) and set the sat nav - which covers pretty much the only things you might need to adjust while the car is moving.
    You've saved me a job @bobmunro.  The gripe I have is I have yet to find a list of voice commands.  But it’s got to be much safer if you don't have to look or feel for the relevant control.

    Another very recent gripe is Volvo releasing a new, very different looking screen system which you have to immediately get used to.  Volvo have decided to reduce the map display size by adding some big useless buttons you can't get rid of. 
  • jonseventyfive
    jonseventyfive Posts: 3,495
    Battery drop off during the winter is very disappointing for me,  frosty mornings barely gave us 200 miles fully charged,  today prior to the Watford trip that was upto 310 , should be able to set the no win no fee gang on makers for these false mileage claims. 
  • Hex
    Hex Posts: 1,938
    jonseventyfive said:
    Battery drop off during the winter is very disappointing for me,  frosty mornings barely gave us 200 miles fully charged,  today prior to the Watford trip that was upto 310 , should be able to set the no win no fee gang on makers for these false mileage claims. 
    Much like the range on a petrol car, EV predicted range is dependent on the type of trips and driving you have been doing recently and is likely to change on a longer trip.
  • Carter
    Carter Posts: 14,522
    Hex said:
    jonseventyfive said:
    Battery drop off during the winter is very disappointing for me,  frosty mornings barely gave us 200 miles fully charged,  today prior to the Watford trip that was upto 310 , should be able to set the no win no fee gang on makers for these false mileage claims. 
    Much like the range on a petrol car, EV predicted range is dependent on the type of trips and driving you have been doing recently and is likely to change on a longer trip.
    Ha, the issue we have is that a tank of diesel goes a lot further when doing long journeys. A full charge of electricity gets us less miles the further you go 
  • Rothko
    Rothko Posts: 19,091
    Car drove like a dream to Watford, reckon the fuel cost was about 60p, at 3.9miles to the KW
  • bobmunro
    bobmunro Posts: 21,563
    Hex said:
    bobmunro said:
    There was a move away from buttons and dials to get a 'clean' look but some seem to be creeping back. The big iPad stuck on the dash is being replaced with in-dash screens that wrap around more.
     
    Also, the vast majority of cars built today have many controls on the steering wheel and are equipped with very effective voice recognition software being able to adjust temperature, change a radio station or pick out a track or album on your Apple Car Play (other streaming services are available!) and set the sat nav - which covers pretty much the only things you might need to adjust while the car is moving.
    You've saved me a job @bobmunro.  The gripe I have is I have yet to find a list of voice commands.  But it’s got to be much safer if you don't have to look or feel for the relevant control.

    Another very recent gripe is Volvo releasing a new, very different looking screen system which you have to immediately get used to.  Volvo have decided to reduce the map display size by adding some big useless buttons you can't get rid of. 

    They are pretty intuitive nowadays. Press the talk button or say "Hi Google" or "Hi Porsche" or whatever voice command wakes it up, and then "Navigate to [Postcode]" or "Play [Name of Track or Album]" "Tune to Radio 4" or "Set Temperature to [required temp]" and so on. 
  • bobmunro
    bobmunro Posts: 21,563
    Carter said:
    Hex said:
    jonseventyfive said:
    Battery drop off during the winter is very disappointing for me,  frosty mornings barely gave us 200 miles fully charged,  today prior to the Watford trip that was upto 310 , should be able to set the no win no fee gang on makers for these false mileage claims. 
    Much like the range on a petrol car, EV predicted range is dependent on the type of trips and driving you have been doing recently and is likely to change on a longer trip.
    Ha, the issue we have is that a tank of diesel goes a lot further when doing long journeys. A full charge of electricity gets us less miles the further you go 
    Yes, the range gauge is certainly not linear, but then neither is a petrol gauge.


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  • bobmunro
    bobmunro Posts: 21,563
    jonseventyfive said:
    Battery drop off during the winter is very disappointing for me,  frosty mornings barely gave us 200 miles fully charged,  today prior to the Watford trip that was upto 310 , should be able to set the no win no fee gang on makers for these false mileage claims. 

    A heat pump fitted certainly maintains a higher range in cold weather - some cars have it as standard and others it's a cost option, but very worthwhile having.
  • Carter
    Carter Posts: 14,522
    bobmunro said:
    Carter said:
    Hex said:
    jonseventyfive said:
    Battery drop off during the winter is very disappointing for me,  frosty mornings barely gave us 200 miles fully charged,  today prior to the Watford trip that was upto 310 , should be able to set the no win no fee gang on makers for these false mileage claims. 
    Much like the range on a petrol car, EV predicted range is dependent on the type of trips and driving you have been doing recently and is likely to change on a longer trip.
    Ha, the issue we have is that a tank of diesel goes a lot further when doing long journeys. A full charge of electricity gets us less miles the further you go 
    Yes, the range gauge is certainly not linear, but then neither is a petrol gauge.

    Agree, but to a far less expensive degree 

    I've done something seriously wrong if I get a massive variance in a tank of fuel in terms of miles 

    I'm sure they will get better as these things tend to do however I can only take as I find. 7
  • jonseventyfive
    jonseventyfive Posts: 3,495
    bobmunro said:
    jonseventyfive said:
    Battery drop off during the winter is very disappointing for me,  frosty mornings barely gave us 200 miles fully charged,  today prior to the Watford trip that was upto 310 , should be able to set the no win no fee gang on makers for these false mileage claims. 

    A heat pump fitted certainly maintains a higher range in cold weather - some cars have it as standard and others it's a cost option, but very worthwhile having.
    Yes we have the battery heater,  I'm starting to think about is it working properly,  usually it's not an issue,  I don't drive far,  just locally and mostly trains for football commutes. 
  • DamoNorthStand
    DamoNorthStand Posts: 12,035
    Wondering if the terrible residuals on second hand electric cars will start to improve in the current climate now?
  • MarcusH26
    MarcusH26 Posts: 9,548
    DamoNorthStand said:
    Wondering if the terrible residuals on second hand electric cars will start to improve in the current climate now?
    The local car auction place down here apparently can't get enough EV stock quick enough for the demand. Not sure it will change much in terms of residuals but there's definitely been an uptick in demand for EVs in the current climate 
  • letthegoodtimesroll
    letthegoodtimesroll Posts: 11,241
    MarcusH26 said:
    DamoNorthStand said:
    Wondering if the terrible residuals on second hand electric cars will start to improve in the current climate now?
    The local car auction place down here apparently can't get enough EV stock quick enough for the demand. Not sure it will change much in terms of residuals but there's definitely been an uptick in demand for EVs in the current climate 
    Not that there is sufficient electricity generation capacity, especially given AI is probably going to take up a lot of it for the foreseeable future until we magically have loads of new nuclear reactors built and online, but once ‘too many’  vehicle drivers switch away from from oil based fuel then the UK Government revenues from its extortionate taxes on petrol and diesel will have to be replaced with increases to its extortionate taxes on the alternative fuel, ie VAT on electricity. Those claims about how cheap an electric car journey is might no longer be repeated so often, even sooner if Trump bombs Iran back to the Stone Age or withdraws without the Strait being reopened.

  • Carter
    Carter Posts: 14,522
    The price of used ones I can't see going up as whilst they maybe in demand a bit more currently, the used ones carry the same concerns they always have. Anyone who buys new on PCP, HP, leases and does relatively short journeys, and can charge at home. Have at it, I personally wouldn't go for a used EV until the creases have been ironed out of them the low prices don't just come from scepticism. 


  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 48,098
    The problems with a the second hand EV market won't go away. Customers think the technology will improve which will make their car obsolete. Then there are potential out of warranty costs which can write the vehicle off.
  • AndyG
    AndyG Posts: 6,265
    I have had an EV6 for the last 3 years and love it, starting to look at my next car now but wont be looking at anything but an EV. However Im lucky as mine is a company car Im not sure if I was buying it myself I would feel the same, certainly not 2nd hand as the cost of a replacement battery at some point would put me off
  • letthegoodtimesroll
    letthegoodtimesroll Posts: 11,241
    bobmunro said:
    There was a move away from buttons and dials to get a 'clean' look but some seem to be creeping back. The big iPad stuck on the dash is being replaced with in-dash screens that wrap around more.
     
    Also, the vast majority of cars built today have many controls on the steering wheel and are equipped with very effective voice recognition software being able to adjust temperature, change a radio station or pick out a track or album on your Apple Car Play (other streaming services are available!) and set the sat nav - which covers pretty much the only things you might need to adjust while the car is moving.
    And a couple of hours later.. VW send me this


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