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Spurs v Chelsea alleged racism

Thr original thread was closed but I think it’s vitally important this is noted and doesn’t become the equivalent of a newspaper apology on page 20.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/12040/11902565/antonio-rudiger-alleged-racist-abuse-investigation-ended-by-metropolitan-police

For me this clarifies a couple of things:

1. Players should not be afforded the power to stop/postpone games alone as this just proves that they can either lie or get it wrong.

2. In the original thread there were some scathing views directed at people who suggested it was not proven yet. I’d like to think they regret those comments and appreciate its not always back and white (excuse the pun)

If he has made it up then he’s caused more harm than good for the fight against racism and I would like to think he would be quizzed on this.
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Comments

  • I didn't say he lied.

    With the amount of publicity this got, the resources employed and the technology in the ground I’m convinced they’d have identified any culprit.
  • Haven't the same concern from you when nothing has been done about racism at grounds in the past. 
  • Where has that come from? I’d always advocated racism is punished severely when it occurs. It’s an evil but I think the recent scrutiny has given the impression that things are worse than the reality.

    Do you not think that incidents like this are not a concern?

    Do you not think it could set a worrying precedent and enable both mistake and/or more sinister motives to influence the game?

    Spurs as a club and fan base were assumed   guilty without evidence and the original story sticks with fans and the general public but the follow up article goes unnoticed. The club and football get bad press when in reality no racism has occurred after investigation. It could easily be Charlton next time or yourself...
  • Haven't the same concern from you when nothing has been done about racism at grounds in the past. 
    Bang out of order
  • Haven't the same concern from you when nothing has been done about racism at grounds in the past. 
    Stupid comment 
  • Lack of proof doesn't mean it didn't happen either.
    Mainstream media wet themselves at this story when they got it, making it headline news. There'll be no consequences for those news editors. And nor should there be for the player concerned, assuming he acted in good faith.
  • Your threads seem to have a bit of a recurring theme @The_Organiser
  • edited January 6
    I’ll ignore that subtle but unnecessary  implication se9addick. It’s rather like people don’t want the truth highlighted on this occasion.

    This I think deserved sharing after the controversy surrounding the original story.

    And my thread on the politics was in response to earlier discussions around the general election, where my opinions were dismissed.

    Click on my username and look down the recent threads I have started. Hardly a recurring theme is it.

    But I’ll try to reduce alternative opinions on these issues going forward.
  • I always think it's nigh on impossible to pick out one individual out of a crowd of 50k. How can you tell hours or even minutes later who shouted what from the terraces. A gesture may be caught on camera but I doubt 1 lone voice will.
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  • Its very easy to mishear things, especially in or near to a large crowds. Wasn't it Darcus Howe who while filming a TV programme at The Valley claimed to have heard monkey chants from the North Stand, when in fact it was just chanting a players name (if I recall).
  • edited January 7
    Weren’t Brighton fans accused of the  nazi chant “seig heil” by some div when of course they were chanting “seagulls , seagulls “ or is that an urban myth 
  • Thr original thread was closed but I think it’s vitally important this is noted and doesn’t become the equivalent of a newspaper apology on page 20.
    What do you mean, do you think Rudiger should apologise?
  • Weren’t Brighton fans accused of the  nazi chant “seig heil” by some div when of course they were chanting “seagulls , seagulls “ or is that an urban myth 
    I think it was the spanners who were accused when they were playing BHA.
  • Rudiger made similar accusations when Chelsea played Roma in 2017, same outcome, no evidence to support claim.
    At the Spurs game there were chants of cheat cheat cheat because of his rolling around holding his face antics.
  • Had a feeling who the OP would be when I opened this.
  • cafckev said:
    Its very easy to mishear things, especially in or near to a large crowds. Wasn't it Darcus Howe who while filming a TV programme at The Valley claimed to have heard monkey chants from the North Stand, when in fact it was just chanting a players name (if I recall).
    I can't remember that bit, but I do recall lingering shots of a flag with NF on it hanging on the front of the Jimmy Seed.
    Which admittedly would have been shocking if not for the fact we were playing Forest at the time, and they'd neglected to show the bottom half with FC on it.
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  • edited January 7
    You've only got to read previous threads and the one on here today, re our fans mis-hearing the lyrics of our songs, to realise things can be easily mistaken.

    https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/87899/ally-ally-ally-oh-chant#latest
  • Chunes said:
    Thr original thread was closed but I think it’s vitally important this is noted and doesn’t become the equivalent of a newspaper apology on page 20.
    What do you mean, do you think Rudiger should apologise?
    No, I mean the article I linked gets no coverage, where as the original, now unfounded, accusation was national news. I don’t think that’s right. Much like when a newspaper prints rubbish and apologises much later hidden away on the back pages.

    Should he apologise? Well only he knows what he really heard and it’s the second time he’s made an unproven claim.  

    I persinally don't think it should get to get to the point where games are stopped and potentially postponed on one players claims. The incident in Bulgaria was different as everyone could see and hear it.

    I think the player in question should report it either at half time or full time and then an investigation should occur and if it’s proven, they come down on the accused with a tonne of bricks, prosecutors them and then make it national news.

    Like it or not, when this happens we are all tarred with the same brush by joe bloggs - “did you hear those racist football fans again” etc etc and that really don’t sit well with me.
  • edited January 7
    colthe3rd said:
    Had a feeling who the OP would be when I opened this.
    Lovely....

    Does it not warrant discussion then, considering the original story made national news for several days? 

    Or or do we just accept another slur on football/football fans, because to not do so goes against your narrative?

    Bring it down to an individual level, if someone in the street accused you of racist abuse, as they misheard or made up a claim, would you be happy to end up on the news for a few days and then when it’s confirmed there is no evidence, hardly anyone wants to hear it or discuss it? Would you be aggrieved, being known by many as ‘that racist man’?

    Considering it’s one of the worst things someone can be accused of, I’d expect you’d be a bit miffed?
  • The organiser...I think the lack of interest and comment are telling you that the fans here have flogged this subject to death....
  • colthe3rd said:
    Had a feeling who the OP would be when I opened this.
    Lovely....

    Does it not warrant discussion then, considering the original story made national news for several days? 

    Or or do we just accept another slur on football/football fans, because to not do so goes against your narrative?

    Bring it down to an individual level, if someone in the street accused you of racist abuse, as they misheard or made up a claim, would you be happy to end up on the news for a few days and then when it’s confirmed there is no evidence, hardly anyone wants to hear it or discuss it? Would you be aggrieved, being known by many as ‘that racist man’?

    Considering it’s one of the worst things someone can be accused of, I’d expect you’d be a bit miffed?
    But you're still taking this as evidence it didn't happen rather than no evidence could be found. At this point in time all possibilities are probable ranging from lies from Rudiger to a cover up from Spurs (I'm not saying either are likely before anyone gets upset). Because of this there really isn't anything to discuss. A man thought he heard racist abuse, nothing could be found so everyone should move on unless more evidence is found to prove one side right or wrong. 
  • edited January 7
    colthe3rd said:
    colthe3rd said:
    Had a feeling who the OP would be when I opened this.
    Lovely....

    Does it not warrant discussion then, considering the original story made national news for several days? 

    Or or do we just accept another slur on football/football fans, because to not do so goes against your narrative?

    Bring it down to an individual level, if someone in the street accused you of racist abuse, as they misheard or made up a claim, would you be happy to end up on the news for a few days and then when it’s confirmed there is no evidence, hardly anyone wants to hear it or discuss it? Would you be aggrieved, being known by many as ‘that racist man’?

    Considering it’s one of the worst things someone can be accused of, I’d expect you’d be a bit miffed?
    But you're still taking this as evidence it didn't happen rather than no evidence could be found. At this point in time all possibilities are probable ranging from lies from Rudiger to a cover up from Spurs (I'm not saying either are likely before anyone gets upset). Because of this there really isn't anything to discuss. A man thought he heard racist abuse, nothing could be found so everyone should move on unless more evidence is found to prove one side right or wrong. 
    I get your point Colthe3rd, but generally no evidence means not guilty in other cases, rather than ifs and buts.

    I just think it’s a bit more than ‘nothing to discuss’ and ‘move on’, as 1. a huge precedent was set on the protocol etc which has lasting ramifications. It’s not just a bit of standard unproven hearsay and 2. The accusation sticks for most people and I don’t think that’s right.

    If there has been proven racist abuse, use all the powers you can to punish and re-educate, but if it’s not proven, I think more should be made of it and it will be used against fans in future and to support players future actions which is a dangerous direction in my opinion, but I’m obviously in the minority so i’ll leave it be.
  • colthe3rd said:
    colthe3rd said:
    Had a feeling who the OP would be when I opened this.
    Lovely....

    Does it not warrant discussion then, considering the original story made national news for several days? 

    Or or do we just accept another slur on football/football fans, because to not do so goes against your narrative?

    Bring it down to an individual level, if someone in the street accused you of racist abuse, as they misheard or made up a claim, would you be happy to end up on the news for a few days and then when it’s confirmed there is no evidence, hardly anyone wants to hear it or discuss it? Would you be aggrieved, being known by many as ‘that racist man’?

    Considering it’s one of the worst things someone can be accused of, I’d expect you’d be a bit miffed?
    But you're still taking this as evidence it didn't happen rather than no evidence could be found. At this point in time all possibilities are probable ranging from lies from Rudiger to a cover up from Spurs (I'm not saying either are likely before anyone gets upset). Because of this there really isn't anything to discuss. A man thought he heard racist abuse, nothing could be found so everyone should move on unless more evidence is found to prove one side right or wrong. 
    I get your point Colthe3rd, but generally no evidence means not guilty in other cases, rather than ifs and buts.

    I just think it’s a bit more than ‘nothing to discuss’ and ‘move on’, as 1. a huge precedent was set on the protocol etc which has lasting ramifications. It’s not just a bit of standard unproven hearsay and 2. The accusation sticks for most people and I don’t think that’s right.

    If there has been proven racist abuse, use all the powers you can to punish and re-educate, but if it’s not proven, I think more should be made of it and it will be used against fans in future and to support players future actions which is a dangerous direction in my opinion, but I’m obviously in the minority so i’ll leave it be.
    What do you think should be done in this instance?
  • At least one other Spurs fan sitting nearby said he heard the chants. According to a number of reports the supporter has not been spoken to by the club or police.
  • Chizz said:
    colthe3rd said:
    colthe3rd said:
    Had a feeling who the OP would be when I opened this.
    Lovely....

    Does it not warrant discussion then, considering the original story made national news for several days? 

    Or or do we just accept another slur on football/football fans, because to not do so goes against your narrative?

    Bring it down to an individual level, if someone in the street accused you of racist abuse, as they misheard or made up a claim, would you be happy to end up on the news for a few days and then when it’s confirmed there is no evidence, hardly anyone wants to hear it or discuss it? Would you be aggrieved, being known by many as ‘that racist man’?

    Considering it’s one of the worst things someone can be accused of, I’d expect you’d be a bit miffed?
    But you're still taking this as evidence it didn't happen rather than no evidence could be found. At this point in time all possibilities are probable ranging from lies from Rudiger to a cover up from Spurs (I'm not saying either are likely before anyone gets upset). Because of this there really isn't anything to discuss. A man thought he heard racist abuse, nothing could be found so everyone should move on unless more evidence is found to prove one side right or wrong. 
    I get your point Colthe3rd, but generally no evidence means not guilty in other cases, rather than ifs and buts.

    I just think it’s a bit more than ‘nothing to discuss’ and ‘move on’, as 1. a huge precedent was set on the protocol etc which has lasting ramifications. It’s not just a bit of standard unproven hearsay and 2. The accusation sticks for most people and I don’t think that’s right.

    If there has been proven racist abuse, use all the powers you can to punish and re-educate, but if it’s not proven, I think more should be made of it and it will be used against fans in future and to support players future actions which is a dangerous direction in my opinion, but I’m obviously in the minority so i’ll leave it be.
    What do you think should be done in this instance?
    Maybe an actual national news item “no evidence found of racist abuse at game as previously reported”.l etc.

    Going on to say how people should remain vigilant and report to Stewards if they see or hear something as we don’t want to move backwards on the issue”

    Fantasy land maybe but the outpouring of news/slurs surrounding the original claim and relative silence around the result of the investigation just doesn't sit right. And I said exactly the same about the Millwall v Brighton incident years ago and I don’t exactly enjoy defending them.
  • At least one other Spurs fan sitting nearby said he heard the chants. According to a number of reports the supporter has not been spoken to by the club or police.
    Be interested to know more on this. Surely it should be perused if true? It would utterly shame the police and club and that would deserve to be national news.
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