I'm not defending it at all. It's wrong and it should be stopped, the kids punished for what they do and stopped from gathering in such large numbers.
What I'm trying to say is that people did get mugged in the old days, you did have to be careful where you went, which streets you went down, what you wore, etc. That doesn't make it right nor am I making excuses for them.
Just as a small example when the McDonalds opening in Eltham High St loads of kids from Crown Woods and Eltham Green went they on opening day. It all kicked off, place got smashed up and both schools were banned. This was about about 1975.
[cite]Posted By: RedArmySE7[/cite]I meant racist white kid btw!
I think you make a pretty good case redarmy. And maybe something that wasn't as extreme as national service but was enforced and of value to society would be a good idea. I'm sure it'd be complicated logistically but in theory I like the sound of it. Most racism and a lot of this whole gang culture is borne out of ignorance - maybe a better understanding gained whilst watching each other's backs and doing some good for the country would be a good way to combat it.
With regard to whether or not the country's going down the swannie - I'm really not sure. I must admit the gang of chavs outside Tesco Metro in Sidcup does seem to get bigger and more depressing by the day but I've never seen them doing anything worse than underage drinking and smoking. It doesn't really seem any worse to me than when I was that age, maybe I've just been lucky so far though....
The difference between now and 30 years ago is the lack of respect for any form of authority. A very quick way to solve that is to have a rock-hard, shit scary NCO bellowing into your face and making you respect authority.
But we can't have the little tresures submitted to that can we? That would affect their human right to terrorise the rest of the country.
[cite]Posted By: MCS[/cite]...but when i were a boy i used to be able to go to my local shop and not see a riot, or get mugged. Now it is happening all the time, the kids these days are scum as are the parents, i used to know a good few boys on that cherry orchid estate and some of them were a bit tasty and some just plain horrible, but never did i hear of anything going on as it does now! Knife culture will turn into gun culture and you'll still be defending it. I just cant see how!
I grew up in Cherry Orchard in the 60's and 70's - OK, it was far from perfect but it wasn't that bad a place to be - the culture that exists now is far from the one that we lived through.
Yes bad things did happen thirty, forty, fifty years ago but they happened sufficiently rarely to make the national news when they did happen. My family had personal experience of this.
Nowadays there is an awful lot more of it to the extent that a lady left fighting for her life after being robbed and coshed on a train by two youths is hardly worthy of comment. In 1950 when my grandmother was that lady it was front page news.
In the old days you might encounter a gang of four, five, six youths at most.
As Ollie says these days gangs are into double figures and way beyond.
The problem has escalated out of control and political correctness considerations prevent the problem being addressed honestly and properly.
Too many people adopt the attitude well there's always been crime, there always will be crime so we'll ignore it and hope it goes away.
Get rid of all this hug a thug bollocks, it's out of control now. Operate a three strike system, first one a warning, second one an asbo, third one you strike out and spend nine months in either a labour camp or going through military training. Minimum.
Too many people adopt the attitude well there's always been crime, there always will be crime so we'll ignore it and hope it goes away.
That's not what I'm saying at all. I've never argued that we should ignore or tolerate crime or violence. In fact I seem to remember getting slagged off on here for suggesting that one form of crime was not acceptable because other crimes were also being committed.
My point was that each generation sees the problem of crime as new and unique to their time. Because of this we fail to learn the lessons of our history or see the crimes in any context. To blame feckless youth, bad parents or whatever the new group of immigrants isn't enough because we did that before and more than once.
The youths that attacked your grandmother were like that why? They would have done or be about to do national service, would have been caned at School and been given a clip around the year by the police and their dads. They may even have spent time in a short sharp shock borstal. They would most likely have grown up with an extended family with married parents (albeit the dad may have been away fighting in WWII). So why where they thugs? Because I keep reading that all the problems are as a result of modern kids not having such things.
BTW Large three figure gangs of football fans or Mod/Rockers/Skins did exist back in our day Len. Politics was often fought out literally in the streets on both sides of WWII sStreet attacks during WWII, especially in the black-out, were common, bombed houses were looted of personal possessions and it was a common sight, according to my father born 1925 and no stranger to a fight or the courts himself, to see sailors and soldiers using weapons such as bottles in fights in the streets of Woolwich, in particular horse artillery using their spurs on people in fights. The Police had to patrol in pair in parts of Woolwich as it was too risky to go out alone. Victorian London was even worse for the crime and violence and that was an improvement on what went on before.
IMHO, there is no easy, off the shelf answer to these crimes. I don't know what the answer is but re-cycling the same responses every 30 years and dreaming of the "good old days" sure ain't it.
bit new to the area (betwixt Falconwood and Welling). Is New Eltham a bit rougher than Eltham? Where does Welling fit in? I've heard North Welling is worth than South Welling, etc...
I moved to New Eltham from Greenwich in 1988 an the place was nice, only last few years it seems to have the riff raff come down from coldharbour and the new development in averyhill means there are more housing association properties than before! Apologies if you live in a HA house but it's no coincidence.
Henry, I would not deny that 'trouble' has always been around - having recently read a few books about 17th & 18th century London, this is very clear.
However, I don't remember too many knife fights around Cherry Orchard when I lived there. Yes, there was a lot of trouble, but 'tooling-up' seems to be all too common at the moment. And I am not suggeting that knives were not used when we were younger - they were, but it seems far more prevalent at the moment.
[cite]Posted By: stonemuse[/cite]Henry, I would not deny that 'trouble' has always been around - having recently read a few books about 17th & 18th century London, this is very clear.
However, I don't remember too many knife fights around Cherry Orchard when I lived there. Yes, there was a lot of trouble, but 'tooling-up' seems to be all too common at the moment. And I am not suggeting that knives were not used when we were younger - they were, but it seems far more prevalent at the moment.
You may well be right about the tooling up, I just don't know but as you say it was not all peace and light before.
yes plenty more knife action in this day and age than back in the "bad old days" - now we even have kids shooting each other!
and gangs of girls brawling in the streets and stabbing each other. i dont remember any girl gang fights involving knifes in my school days to be honest - may be a few cat fights, bit of scratching and hair pulling... but not ones involving knives and someone ending up dead.
Your reference to soldiers and sailors in Woolwich is valid in that fights took place (Beresford Square was a favourite spot) but slightly disingenuous in that those fights were essentially "in house" or between "consenting adults" to use the modern vernacular. Innocent people (civilians) would not normally be affected or get involved. The same principle applied to mods, rockers and skins. There would be a "set piece" gathering in Hastings, Margate, wherever and they would fight amongst themselves. Again ordinary, decent people going about their business were not normally affected.
I'm not denying or justifying those gatherings and culprits were properly arrested and punished.
I opened my previous post by acknowledging that bad things have always happened but NOT ON THE SHEER SCALE they happen today and also not usually making victims of innocent people going about their business. My grandmother's case would hardly have been plastered over the national press if such an attack was commonplace at that time!
I'm certainly "not dreaming of the good old days" but I do know where I've lived and what I've lived through.
You've met me so you know I'm not exactly a little bloke but nowadays there are places I simply will not go to for fear of trouble.
That fear is twofold. Firstly I physically am not as able as I was but secondly if I did get stuck in and damage somebody the probability is I would be the one charged and punished even though I was acting in self-defence!
I reiterate political correctness considerations prevent this problem being honestly and properly addressed.
Len, I agree about not going places for fear of trouble and for the same reasons plus never having been a "hard man" despite my size.
I think that innocent people did get hurt by those gangs. Maybe sometimes by mistake but also on purpose be it football thugs given one guy on his own a kicking and/or slashing them with stanley knives (once a fashionable thing to carry) or with gangs of skins or white kids going "paki" or squaddie bashing in Woolwich. Wrong place at the wrong time and you got a kicking. As the Piranhas sang in 1978 "getting beaten up is part of growing up"
I bet if you asked the gangs fighting in Charlton by the estate they would say that they only fight other kids from other estates who are looking for it or had it coming for some reason or another. They would claim that they never hurt other people. They forget that they scare other local people just by their presence just as the Teds, Mods and Skins did.
I agree there does seem to be more weapons and certainly it seems that girls are more violent although my dad tells stories of his aunts fighting bare chested in the streets!
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]Wouldn't it be fair to argue that the 'Sheer Scale' is influenced by 24 hour media, that needs a story and hates a vacumn?
Yes there maybe an element of that but I could redecorate my house with cuttings about violent crime from my Millwall supporting colleague's South London Press each week.
I'm talking inside pages not front page headlines!
I can only assume those stories have some basis in fact because I don't read too many retractions!
I agree there does seem to be more weapons and certainly it seems that girls are more violent although my dad tells stories of his aunts fighting bare chested in the streets!
I was in a gang that went out on our bikes to the countryside. A guy came up with a double barrelled and aimed it at the gang. They fled in numbers but I was left stranded up a tree. The guy took my bike away. and left me there.
My 'mates' went and told the folks what had happened. The police came and picked me up withe guy in tow. I got a hell of a telling off from the police and then had to face my parents.
The guy was a farmer
I was up a fruit tree
We were scrumping apples off the farmer's land
That was the golden era 30 years ago and I never put a foot wrong again, neither did any of my mates
Check out the streets of London in Victorian times. Pretty bloody unsafe. This was in the main down to poverty/avarice and the demon drink. This was largely solved when being drunk was considered socially unacceptable and by general improvements in peoples standards of living and social mobility. Where are we now - relative poverty, jealousy and binge drinking. This problem will only be solved again by making the binge drinking culture, socially unacceptable (that might require legislation) and by serious efforts to promote social cohesiveness.
First thing to do is deal with the binge drinking culture.
I don't want to preach but how often on here have fellow lifers extolled the virtues of "going out on the lash". I used to do this but lack of funds meant that I could only do it occasionally. Now the disposable income of young adults is greater, the opportunity to get legless is much easier and instead of being frowned upon, it is seen as part of the "crack". Add to that the heavy drinking by women and you have an explosive drink fuelled cocktail waiting to explode of an evening. Most can get pissed and stay away from trouble but too many cannot. We are learning, just as our Victorian forefathers did, about the evils of the "demon drink".
binge drinking culture aint the issue mate! if people go out on the lash and get pissed then they wont be tooled up and they might have a toe to toe but this isn't the main issue.. speaking as a 17 year old who goes on the lash everyweekend.. yes i am ashamed.. i get far less trouble from groups of other drunk people than groups of black teenagers who aint pissed at all and seem intent on mugging people
[cite]Posted By: The Boat[/cite]binge drinking culture aint the issue mate! if people go out on the lash and get pissed then they wont be tooled up and they might have a toe to toe but this isn't the main issue.. speaking as a 17 year old who goes on the lash everyweekend.. yes i am ashamed.. i get far less trouble from groups of other drunk people than groups of black teenagers who aint pissed at all and seem intent on mugging people
The original thread started about a fight between women and then men. There was no mention of being tooled up. I was responding to the general lawlessness of an evening which I suspect was drink fuelled.
Ben you seem to be missing the point completely , I'm not saying for one minute that everything was rosy in london in the past and I can clearly remember being sent home from school early in woolwich in the 70's due to riots but it's only in the last couple of years that I have really started to feel scared on the streets not only during the dark hours but in daylight as well.
Not 100% sure where you live Ben but I guess it aint wonderful Charlton. I'm also guessing you don't have to spend too much time getting on buses where young black kids play their music loudly through their phones and everyone just has to sit there and take it cos they're scared to say anything.
This knife and gun culture didn't exist in the way it does now until a couple of years ago and unless the goverment starts to come down hard on these idiots now then we will all be scared to leave our own houses in just a few short years.
The labour party has sold this country down the river so much that that people are thinking that their only option is to vote for the BNP.
The whole anti social behaviour problem is much like the imigration problem , those with the money don't give a stuff about it because it doesn't affect them.
I live in Bromley but my mum and dad live opposite the Cherry Orchard Estate. I grew up in Abbey Wood. I've already said that there are times and places were I feel wary or afraid but that that was always the case to a lesser or greater extent.
And before AFKA sinks this thread the point has been made. The violence and crime was always there. Yes there does seem to be an increase in knife and gun crime but what people like the BNP do is play on this fear and blame the latest immigrants. Just like the Irish were blamed in Victorian times (Holligan is an Irish name). In the thirties is was the black shirts blaming the Jews and in the 50s it was the West Indians being attacked by Teddy boys. In the 70s it was the Asians and the Irish (again). Now it's the Somalians/Poles/Asylum seekers.
The Black shirts, Powell, the NF and now the BNP have been selling the same "there's going to be a blood bath/civil war" for decades. There hasn't been and there won't be cos like at Cable St and at Lewisham and Brick Lane the decent people, black and white, will stand up to the fascists and chase the cowards off the streets.
But I agree the police and govt should come down hard on these kids, regardless of colour. If needs be bring in curfews and ASBOs but the problem clearly goes deeper to that. Drink is part of it as are drugs not just in there use but in the trading of them and the stealing and robbery to get the money to pay for them. There is also the lack of expectations or sense of values but what we know is that some people enjoy violence. Hooligans always talk of the buzz of the chase and the fight. I don't get it but for some people, of whatever race, being in a gang, scaring people, inflecting violence on others is fun and a good thing to do. And there are a few people on here who were part of that.
Len, the Sevenoaks killing was a "suicide by policewoman" involving a mentally unstable woman.
Comments
What I'm trying to say is that people did get mugged in the old days, you did have to be careful where you went, which streets you went down, what you wore, etc. That doesn't make it right nor am I making excuses for them.
Just as a small example when the McDonalds opening in Eltham High St loads of kids from Crown Woods and Eltham Green went they on opening day. It all kicked off, place got smashed up and both schools were banned. This was about about 1975.
I think you make a pretty good case redarmy. And maybe something that wasn't as extreme as national service but was enforced and of value to society would be a good idea. I'm sure it'd be complicated logistically but in theory I like the sound of it. Most racism and a lot of this whole gang culture is borne out of ignorance - maybe a better understanding gained whilst watching each other's backs and doing some good for the country would be a good way to combat it.
With regard to whether or not the country's going down the swannie - I'm really not sure. I must admit the gang of chavs outside Tesco Metro in Sidcup does seem to get bigger and more depressing by the day but I've never seen them doing anything worse than underage drinking and smoking. It doesn't really seem any worse to me than when I was that age, maybe I've just been lucky so far though....
But we can't have the little tresures submitted to that can we? That would affect their human right to terrorise the rest of the country.
I grew up in Cherry Orchard in the 60's and 70's - OK, it was far from perfect but it wasn't that bad a place to be - the culture that exists now is far from the one that we lived through.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots
Yes bad things did happen thirty, forty, fifty years ago but they happened sufficiently rarely to make the national news when they did happen. My family had personal experience of this.
Nowadays there is an awful lot more of it to the extent that a lady left fighting for her life after being robbed and coshed on a train by two youths is hardly worthy of comment. In 1950 when my grandmother was that lady it was front page news.
In the old days you might encounter a gang of four, five, six youths at most.
As Ollie says these days gangs are into double figures and way beyond.
The problem has escalated out of control and political correctness considerations prevent the problem being addressed honestly and properly.
Too many people adopt the attitude well there's always been crime, there always will be crime so we'll ignore it and hope it goes away.
Get rid of all this hug a thug bollocks, it's out of control now. Operate a three strike system, first one a warning, second one an asbo, third one you strike out and spend nine months in either a labour camp or going through military training. Minimum.
That's not what I'm saying at all. I've never argued that we should ignore or tolerate crime or violence. In fact I seem to remember getting slagged off on here for suggesting that one form of crime was not acceptable because other crimes were also being committed.
My point was that each generation sees the problem of crime as new and unique to their time. Because of this we fail to learn the lessons of our history or see the crimes in any context. To blame feckless youth, bad parents or whatever the new group of immigrants isn't enough because we did that before and more than once.
The youths that attacked your grandmother were like that why? They would have done or be about to do national service, would have been caned at School and been given a clip around the year by the police and their dads. They may even have spent time in a short sharp shock borstal. They would most likely have grown up with an extended family with married parents (albeit the dad may have been away fighting in WWII). So why where they thugs? Because I keep reading that all the problems are as a result of modern kids not having such things.
BTW Large three figure gangs of football fans or Mod/Rockers/Skins did exist back in our day Len. Politics was often fought out literally in the streets on both sides of WWII sStreet attacks during WWII, especially in the black-out, were common, bombed houses were looted of personal possessions and it was a common sight, according to my father born 1925 and no stranger to a fight or the courts himself, to see sailors and soldiers using weapons such as bottles in fights in the streets of Woolwich, in particular horse artillery using their spurs on people in fights. The Police had to patrol in pair in parts of Woolwich as it was too risky to go out alone. Victorian London was even worse for the crime and violence and that was an improvement on what went on before.
IMHO, there is no easy, off the shelf answer to these crimes. I don't know what the answer is but re-cycling the same responses every 30 years and dreaming of the "good old days" sure ain't it.
However, I don't remember too many knife fights around Cherry Orchard when I lived there. Yes, there was a lot of trouble, but 'tooling-up' seems to be all too common at the moment. And I am not suggeting that knives were not used when we were younger - they were, but it seems far more prevalent at the moment.
You may well be right about the tooling up, I just don't know but as you say it was not all peace and light before.
and gangs of girls brawling in the streets and stabbing each other. i dont remember any girl gang fights involving knifes in my school days to be honest - may be a few cat fights, bit of scratching and hair pulling... but not ones involving knives and someone ending up dead.
stabbing
I'm not denying or justifying those gatherings and culprits were properly arrested and punished.
I opened my previous post by acknowledging that bad things have always happened but NOT ON THE SHEER SCALE they happen today and also not usually making victims of innocent people going about their business. My grandmother's case would hardly have been plastered over the national press if such an attack was commonplace at that time!
I'm certainly "not dreaming of the good old days" but I do know where I've lived and what I've lived through.
You've met me so you know I'm not exactly a little bloke but nowadays there are places I simply will not go to for fear of trouble.
That fear is twofold. Firstly I physically am not as able as I was but secondly if I did get stuck in and damage somebody the probability is I would be the one charged and punished even though I was acting in self-defence!
I reiterate political correctness considerations prevent this problem being honestly and properly addressed.
I think that innocent people did get hurt by those gangs. Maybe sometimes by mistake but also on purpose be it football thugs given one guy on his own a kicking and/or slashing them with stanley knives (once a fashionable thing to carry) or with gangs of skins or white kids going "paki" or squaddie bashing in Woolwich. Wrong place at the wrong time and you got a kicking. As the Piranhas sang in 1978 "getting beaten up is part of growing up"
I bet if you asked the gangs fighting in Charlton by the estate they would say that they only fight other kids from other estates who are looking for it or had it coming for some reason or another. They would claim that they never hurt other people. They forget that they scare other local people just by their presence just as the Teds, Mods and Skins did.
I agree there does seem to be more weapons and certainly it seems that girls are more violent although my dad tells stories of his aunts fighting bare chested in the streets!
Yes there maybe an element of that but I could redecorate my house with cuttings about violent crime from my Millwall supporting colleague's South London Press each week.
I'm talking inside pages not front page headlines!
I can only assume those stories have some basis in fact because I don't read too many retractions!
!!!!!
I was in a gang that went out on our bikes to the countryside. A guy came up with a double barrelled and aimed it at the gang. They fled in numbers but I was left stranded up a tree. The guy took my bike away. and left me there.
My 'mates' went and told the folks what had happened. The police came and picked me up withe guy in tow. I got a hell of a telling off from the police and then had to face my parents.
The guy was a farmer
I was up a fruit tree
We were scrumping apples off the farmer's land
That was the golden era 30 years ago and I never put a foot wrong again, neither did any of my mates
First thing to do is deal with the binge drinking culture.
I don't want to preach but how often on here have fellow lifers extolled the virtues of "going out on the lash". I used to do this but lack of funds meant that I could only do it occasionally. Now the disposable income of young adults is greater, the opportunity to get legless is much easier and instead of being frowned upon, it is seen as part of the "crack". Add to that the heavy drinking by women and you have an explosive drink fuelled cocktail waiting to explode of an evening. Most can get pissed and stay away from trouble but too many cannot. We are learning, just as our Victorian forefathers did, about the evils of the "demon drink".
The original thread started about a fight between women and then men. There was no mention of being tooled up. I was responding to the general lawlessness of an evening which I suspect was drink fuelled.
Not 100% sure where you live Ben but I guess it aint wonderful Charlton. I'm also guessing you don't have to spend too much time getting on buses where young black kids play their music loudly through their phones and everyone just has to sit there and take it cos they're scared to say anything.
This knife and gun culture didn't exist in the way it does now until a couple of years ago and unless the goverment starts to come down hard on these idiots now then we will all be scared to leave our own houses in just a few short years.
The labour party has sold this country down the river so much that that people are thinking that their only option is to vote for the BNP.
The whole anti social behaviour problem is much like the imigration problem , those with the money don't give a stuff about it because it doesn't affect them.
Why only a couple of weeks ago a young lady was shot for parking on a double yellow line.
It's the only language they understand.
why was that woman shot in Sevenoaks recently?
I never get involved in political debate on here, not clever enough, but your last post is absolute nail on the head for me.
Take a bow.
And before AFKA sinks this thread the point has been made. The violence and crime was always there. Yes there does seem to be an increase in knife and gun crime but what people like the BNP do is play on this fear and blame the latest immigrants. Just like the Irish were blamed in Victorian times (Holligan is an Irish name). In the thirties is was the black shirts blaming the Jews and in the 50s it was the West Indians being attacked by Teddy boys. In the 70s it was the Asians and the Irish (again). Now it's the Somalians/Poles/Asylum seekers.
The Black shirts, Powell, the NF and now the BNP have been selling the same "there's going to be a blood bath/civil war" for decades. There hasn't been and there won't be cos like at Cable St and at Lewisham and Brick Lane the decent people, black and white, will stand up to the fascists and chase the cowards off the streets.
But I agree the police and govt should come down hard on these kids, regardless of colour. If needs be bring in curfews and ASBOs but the problem clearly goes deeper to that. Drink is part of it as are drugs not just in there use but in the trading of them and the stealing and robbery to get the money to pay for them. There is also the lack of expectations or sense of values but what we know is that some people enjoy violence. Hooligans always talk of the buzz of the chase and the fight. I don't get it but for some people, of whatever race, being in a gang, scaring people, inflecting violence on others is fun and a good thing to do. And there are a few people on here who were part of that.
Len, the Sevenoaks killing was a "suicide by policewoman" involving a mentally unstable woman.