As far as I have understood it it’s the independent panel that gives the points deduction, not the EFL.
The article in the Athletic the other day said the EFL had been pushing the panel to announce something before this weekend, but that obviously didn’t happen. If the EFL don’t think the points deduction is sufficient they could appeal to the panel to increase it (as they have done with Macclesfield).
I know the EFL have been painfully slow with a lot of other things, but from what I’ve read the delay in this announcement isn’t directly because of their incompetence.
The EFL will wait for the season to finish, then announce that Wednesday will receive X points deduction that puts them just outside the bottom 3. They will then have a further Y points deduction suspended or applied at the start of next season.
There is no chance they’ll punish them properly now, it’s too late, it’s ridiculous.
I thought this, but they gave Birmingham 9 points & they assisted in the enquiry. Even a 9 point deduction might not be enough with then losing today. And they can't give them less than 9 surely.
I'm just assuming that they are waiting until after all the games have been played & then either relegating them completely or giving them an enough of a points deduction that will relegate them anyway.....which would also get the EFL out of trouble with Wigan if it means Wigan staying up.
If the EFL could make a choice they would almost certainly relegate Wednesday not Wigan.
Bookies arnt normally out of kilter too often... Couple that we the meltdown I'm reading on owl's talk it seems that the club know their guilty and what's going to happen.... Of course they could all be bollox but that bit of hope will keep me going for a few days.
The FFP standard deduction is 12 points but with potential for it to be higher. Birmingham got a reduction of 3 points because they alerted the EFL to the issue and co-operated at the time. There is no way, if found guilty, Sheffield Wednesday will get less than 12 points.
We know when the hearing started and I think we can be pretty sure it is not still going on. I can only think Wednesday have been found guilty as if they were found innocent, that would have been announced straight away. We can only speculate why it is taking so long to hear the punishment.
Wednesday 1/100 on to be relegated. Bookies know something?
True Dat.
I’m not a gambler so the above means very little to me....
Would someone mind Krypton Factoring it for me so the ones they think are most likely to go down are at the bottom (assume that’s now Wednesday) and the rest in ascending order with less likeliness to go down? Also where‘s Barnsley and Hull? I’m confooosed...
Latest rumour on Owlstalk is that a poster there reckons he's heard from ' 2 very trustworthy sources' that Wednesday were found guilty at the hearing and have known the outcome for over a week.
Again, could just be another made up rumour, but it does seem weird that we know their case has finished but we haven't heard the outcome.
Speculation is that both sides agreed not to announce the outcome until an appeal had been heard.
“If little old Barnsley and its supporters have to lead the way to clean up English football then we’ll do it by any means necessary. If that has to be litigation, so be it.”
Latest rumour on Owlstalk is that a poster there reckons he's heard from ' 2 very trustworthy sources' that Wednesday were found guilty at the hearing and have known the outcome for over a week.
Again, could just be another made up rumour, but it does seem weird that we know their case has finished but we haven't heard the outcome.
Speculation is that both sides agreed not to announce the outcome until an appeal had been heard.
If that's true, wonder if the players are aware of the outcome or if it's just the people upstairs. Little bit of me feels a bit sorry for the fans in total limbo over this, especially as those not particularly following the story (if that's even possible) could be in for a very nasty shock.
I can just imagine Wednesday night's Quest show as the punishments are announced
"Before the break we saw the heartbroken Wigan players, relegated by their 12 point deduction but during the break we heard that the EFL have now deducted 12 points from Sheffield Wednesday so they are relegated and Wigan are safe...hold on, another announcement"
Latest rumour on Owlstalk is that a poster there reckons he's heard from ' 2 very trustworthy sources' that Wednesday were found guilty at the hearing and have known the outcome for over a week.
Again, could just be another made up rumour, but it does seem weird that we know their case has finished but we haven't heard the outcome.
Speculation is that both sides agreed not to announce the outcome until an appeal had been heard.
If that's true, wonder if the players are aware of the outcome or if it's just the people upstairs. Little bit of me feels a bit sorry for the fans in total limbo over this, especially as those not particularly following the story (if that's even possible) could be in for a very nasty shock.
100% if the outcome is known by the suits upstairs, then Monk and his players will also know.
The odds indicate that no bookies want to take a bet on Wednesday because of the unspecified punishment rather than knowing they're nailed on for relegation (imo). They're not offering odds on Wigan for the same reason.
The Barnsley guy makes some good points about our football:
"Many teams cheat and the league is so weak enforcing its own rules. In most other leagues, not paying players on time is automatic relegation. Administration in France and Spain is relegation by two divisions.
In England, teams like Derby and Wigan, maybe even Sheffield Wednesday, don’t pay their players on time and they don’t receive any penalties. A serial offender in Birmingham were found guilty again and what was their punishment? Nothing."
It is the plain sight cheating that shows the extent of the problem. Classing Rooney as a coach is a great example of how they are getting round player salary budget rules. And add to that selling the ground to themselves!!Wednesday have invented sponsors to pull the wool over the authority's eyes! They sold the ground to themselves too, but moved the tax year falsely to not fall foul of the rules. Apart from being ridiculous,this is dishonest and unfair on those clubs trying to compete fairly.
It is the plain sight cheating that shows the extent of the problem. Classing Rooney as a coach is a great example of how they are getting round player salary budget rules. And add to that selling the ground to themselves!!Wednesday have invented sponsors to pull the wool over the authority's eyes! They sold the ground to themselves too, but moved the tax year falsely to not fall foul of the rules. Apart from being ridiculous,this is dishonest and unfair on those clubs trying to compete fairly.
Ok, time for Sherlock Muttley. let's look at what we know and then some speculation as the delay in an announcement of the outcome has to have an explanation. The Stadium was sold in a different accounting year to where it was shown in its accounts. If this was applied to the correct year, Wednesday would have fallen foul of the FFP (now known as Profit and Sustainability rules). Unlike Derby, it is not the sale that is in question, but this accounting manipulation.
The stadium sale was not correctly registered with the Land Registry until over a year after the sale date Wednesday provided. Wednesday have maintained the EFL gave permission for this when they did it! The added issue that looks pretty damning is that the company that purchased the stadium at the time Wednesday reported, did not exist in that crucial period.
Now the political bit. Up to 2016, selling your ground to avoid falling foul of FFP was not possible. For obvious reasons. It is a clear cheat. At that point, the league amended its rules to align with the Premier league. This created a loophole that allowed teams to do this but it was never the intention. So there was a loophole which the EFL were unhappy about teams exploiting. It subjected them to risk of being sued as this was a major error on their part. So the EFL would prefer that Wednesday get punished as it seeks to stop clubs doing this in future.
But Wednesday cocked things up big time. Possibly because it had to do something to avoid the FFP breach that like Birmingham may have caught them out. They could have like Birmingham come clean about their error. Birmingham received a 3 point bonus for this that meant they were only docked 9 points instead of 12 last season. Within the Profit and sustainability rules the punishment ranges from 9 points (for co-operating teams, 12 points as standard and 21 points in aggravated circumstances). The deception and obstruction Wednesday have allegedly committed makes a larger than 12 points reduction more than feasible.
We also know the hearing, held by an independent panel commenced weeks ago. It is inconceivable that it has not been concluded. The facts stated above are reasonably clear cut. So why no announcement? I think if Wednesday were found not guilty, there is no way that wouldn't have been announced. Even if the EFL appealed, Wednesday would have leaked it. So it has to be the most likely conclusion that Wednesday have been found guilty.
So why delay the announcement? Some may argue the EFL are waiting to see how many points Wednesday get so they can be given a token deduction. I don't think this is likely as it wouldn't be a punishment at all and the independent panel decide what it should be within the rules and guidelines. Most of it's members are absolutely livid at this cheating as it potentially affects them. I suspect a more likely reason for the delay is that the punishment is more than 12 points due to Wednesday's behaviour and obstructions.
A 21 point reduction could explain the delay. 21 points is a big deterrent but also a deduction of this scale may not be any different in realty to 12 points, if 12 points relegates Wednesday. A way of imposing the full force of the deduction would be to apply the points needed to relegate and what is left gets carried over until next season. This would potentially explain the delay in the announcement in terms of specific points but the general outcome could still be announced. This is just a theory, but Wednesday would still have something to play for as every point gained comes off the final total.
Moving to Derby. What Derby have done, the League is very unhappy about as the loophole used greatly embarrasses them, but due to the EFL's uselessness, it is legal. What the league are investigating is whether the valuation was reasonable as if this was not the case, the sale can be clearly shown to be a sham. But ultimately, Derby did lump the sale in the appropriate year. The EFL are livid at both clubs but Wednesday are the easier target as whilst they used the loophole, they did it in the wrong year which makes it easier for the EFL to throw the book at them.
If what I am saying is proven correct, I expect a promote (which is more than Wednesday will say next season). The thing is, there has to be an explanation.
This is what I don't understand and nor does anybody else. But there has to be an outcome and a reason any statement has been delayed. Maybe Wednesday have requested no announcement subject to appeal. Ultimately there has to be a decision, guilty or not guilty and then punishment or no punishment. Maybe the points deduction cannot be announced legally until the EFL Know what it is in each season.
Comments
That would be, in the case of Wednesday, grossly unfair on the other relegated sides.
But I wouldn't put it passed the EFL to deflect criticism about their treatment of Wigan by putting Wednesday beneath them so keeping Wigan up.
And no, I've not had a drink. Yet
We know when the hearing started and I think we can be pretty sure it is not still going on. I can only think Wednesday have been found guilty as if they were found innocent, that would have been announced straight away. We can only speculate why it is taking so long to hear the punishment.
Would someone mind Krypton Factoring it for me so the ones they think are most likely to go down are at the bottom (assume that’s now Wednesday) and the rest in ascending order with less likeliness to go down?
Also where‘s Barnsley and Hull?
I’m confooosed...
Again, could just be another made up rumour, but it does seem weird that we know their case has finished but we haven't heard the outcome.
Speculation is that both sides agreed not to announce the outcome until an appeal had been heard.
https://www.nottinghampost.com/sport/football/football-news/chairman-slams-cheating-derby-county-4340207
I'd trust Nixon for information more than him!
"Before the break we saw the heartbroken Wigan players, relegated by their 12 point deduction but during the break we heard that the EFL have now deducted 12 points from Sheffield Wednesday so they are relegated and Wigan are safe...hold on, another announcement"
"Many teams cheat and the league is so weak enforcing its own rules. In most other leagues, not paying players on time is automatic relegation. Administration in France and Spain is relegation by two divisions.
In England, teams like Derby and Wigan, maybe even Sheffield Wednesday, don’t pay their players on time and they don’t receive any penalties. A serial offender in Birmingham were found guilty again and what was their punishment? Nothing."
The stadium sale was not correctly registered with the Land Registry until over a year after the sale date Wednesday provided. Wednesday have maintained the EFL gave permission for this when they did it! The added issue that looks pretty damning is that the company that purchased the stadium at the time Wednesday reported, did not exist in that crucial period.
Now the political bit. Up to 2016, selling your ground to avoid falling foul of FFP was not possible. For obvious reasons. It is a clear cheat. At that point, the league amended its rules to align with the Premier league. This created a loophole that allowed teams to do this but it was never the intention. So there was a loophole which the EFL were unhappy about teams exploiting. It subjected them to risk of being sued as this was a major error on their part. So the EFL would prefer that Wednesday get punished as it seeks to stop clubs doing this in future.
But Wednesday cocked things up big time. Possibly because it had to do something to avoid the FFP breach that like Birmingham may have caught them out. They could have like Birmingham come clean about their error. Birmingham received a 3 point bonus for this that meant they were only docked 9 points instead of 12 last season. Within the Profit and sustainability rules the punishment ranges from 9 points (for co-operating teams, 12 points as standard and 21 points in aggravated circumstances). The deception and obstruction Wednesday have allegedly committed makes a larger than 12 points reduction more than feasible.
We also know the hearing, held by an independent panel commenced weeks ago. It is inconceivable that it has not been concluded. The facts stated above are reasonably clear cut. So why no announcement? I think if Wednesday were found not guilty, there is no way that wouldn't have been announced. Even if the EFL appealed, Wednesday would have leaked it. So it has to be the most likely conclusion that Wednesday have been found guilty.
So why delay the announcement? Some may argue the EFL are waiting to see how many points Wednesday get so they can be given a token deduction. I don't think this is likely as it wouldn't be a punishment at all and the independent panel decide what it should be within the rules and guidelines. Most of it's members are absolutely livid at this cheating as it potentially affects them. I suspect a more likely reason for the delay is that the punishment is more than 12 points due to Wednesday's behaviour and obstructions.
A 21 point reduction could explain the delay. 21 points is a big deterrent but also a deduction of this scale may not be any different in realty to 12 points, if 12 points relegates Wednesday. A way of imposing the full force of the deduction would be to apply the points needed to relegate and what is left gets carried over until next season. This would potentially explain the delay in the announcement in terms of specific points but the general outcome could still be announced. This is just a theory, but Wednesday would still have something to play for as every point gained comes off the final total.
Moving to Derby. What Derby have done, the League is very unhappy about as the loophole used greatly embarrasses them, but due to the EFL's uselessness, it is legal. What the league are investigating is whether the valuation was reasonable as if this was not the case, the sale can be clearly shown to be a sham. But ultimately, Derby did lump the sale in the appropriate year. The EFL are livid at both clubs but Wednesday are the easier target as whilst they used the loophole, they did it in the wrong year which makes it easier for the EFL to throw the book at them.