Can someone explain how/why we would go into admin if wages and bills are being paid on time?
I get that we don't know who is paying them, but they are being paid.
If the EFL refuses to allow the club to start next season without proof of funds and ESI cannot show it, they would presumably be trading insolvently pretty quickly - which is potentially a criminal offence. No central revenue, no ticket revenue because no matches and no demonstrable business plan. Yes, transfer fees, but to what end?
Someone has to show the EFL circa £20m to be allowed to continue. Anybody who does that with Duchatelet’s deal hanging over their head and without current independent means to pay it is likely to be a fool or a crook.
The first question is whether ESI can pay the July wages or will choose to do so. The second is who is putting up the £5m-£10m the club is likely to lose between now and next May, even allowing for transfer income. Break even budget in the Championship is a hefty loss in L1 and there is no equilibrium point. You cannot cut your way out of it even if the players are amateurs - and that’s before we get to the effects of Covid-19
It wouldn't be pretty to watch on the field BUT in normal circumstances it should be possible to more or less break even in L1, especially as we now have no legacy high wage "Driesen" era players on the books. Or a moderate loss (from the cost of the academy) covered by player sales.
After all that's how it used to be not that long ago...
Of course Covid has thrown a massive spanner in football finances. PLUS the fact that ESI's presence will significantly reduce the crowds as well now
Can someone explain how/why we would go into admin if wages and bills are being paid on time?
I get that we don't know who is paying them, but they are being paid.
If the EFL refuses to allow the club to start next season without proof of funds and ESI cannot show it, they would presumably be trading insolvently pretty quickly - which is potentially a criminal offence. No central revenue, no ticket revenue because no matches and no demonstrable business plan. Yes, transfer fees, but to what end?
Someone has to show the EFL circa £20m to be allowed to continue. Anybody who does that with Duchatelet’s deal hanging over their head and without current independent means to pay it is likely to be a fool or a crook.
The first question is whether ESI can pay the July wages or will choose to do so. The second is who is putting up the £5m-£10m the club is likely to lose between now and next May, even allowing for transfer income. Break even budget in the Championship is a hefty loss in L1 and there is no equilibrium point. You cannot cut your way out of it even if the players are amateurs - and that’s before we get to the effects of Covid-19
It wouldn't be pretty to watch on the field BUT in normal circumstances it should be possible to more or less break even in L1, especially as we now have no legacy high wage "Driesen" era players on the books. Or a moderate loss (from the cost of the academy) covered by player sales.
After all that's how it used to be not that long ago...
Of course Covid has thrown a massive spanner in football finances. PLUS the fact that ESI's presence will significantly reduce the crowds as well now
Wouldn't it be better to buy the club for as little as possible then put it into admin at the last moment before the agreement to buy the freehold comes into effect and or we are in a comfortable points position - or at least threaten RD with this?
Wouldn't it be better to buy the club for as little as possible then put it into admin at the last moment before the agreement to buy the freehold comes into effect and or we are in a comfortable points position - or at least threaten RD with this?
If you put it in admin, you can't buy it back out.
Wouldn't it be better to buy the club for as little as possible then put it into admin at the last moment before the agreement to buy the freehold comes into effect and or we are in a comfortable points position - or at least threaten RD with this?
If you put it in admin, you can't buy it back out.
Wouldn't it be better to buy the club for as little as possible then put it into admin at the last moment before the agreement to buy the freehold comes into effect and or we are in a comfortable points position - or at least threaten RD with this?
If you put it in admin, you can't buy it back out.
If we went into admin now, maybe that would encourage the EFL to penalise Wednesday and it will save Wigan. The Championship season hasn't ended until 4 August. It could save us too in terms of our future, rather than league position and give us a fighting chance next season in League One with scum like Duchatelet and the crooks removed.
I really don’t think it will take Duchatelet out of the picture. He’ll still own the ground and the training ground with no real incentive to sell for less than it’s worth*, certainly not quickly.
*worth in his eyes.
Well I think it is worth a lot of trouble for him going forwards.
If we went into admin now, maybe that would encourage the EFL to penalise Wednesday and it will save Wigan. The Championship season hasn't ended until 4 August. It could save us too in terms of our future, rather than league position and give us a fighting chance next season in League One with scum like Duchatelet and the crooks removed.
I really don’t think it will take Duchatelet out of the picture. He’ll still own the ground and the training ground with no real incentive to sell for less than it’s worth*, certainly not quickly.
*worth in his eyes.
Well I think it is worth a lot of trouble for him going forwards.
What trouble though? There were enormous protests, which I support, against him both here and in his backyard to force him to sell. He sold the club and now we’re in a worse position than it he had just retained control of the club and property.
Before we start making “trouble” again we need to really think about what our options are and learn from previous mistakes.
Can someone explain how/why we would go into admin if wages and bills are being paid on time?
I get that we don't know who is paying them, but they are being paid.
If the EFL refuses to allow the club to start next season without proof of funds and ESI cannot show it, they would presumably be trading insolvently pretty quickly - which is potentially a criminal offence. No central revenue, no ticket revenue because no matches and no demonstrable business plan. Yes, transfer fees, but to what end?
Someone has to show the EFL circa £20m to be allowed to continue. Anybody who does that with Duchatelet’s deal hanging over their head and without current independent means to pay it is likely to be a fool or a crook.
The first question is whether ESI can pay the July wages or will choose to do so. The second is who is putting up the £5m-£10m the club is likely to lose between now and next May, even allowing for transfer income. Break even budget in the Championship is a hefty loss in L1 and there is no equilibrium point. You cannot cut your way out of it even if the players are amateurs - and that’s before we get to the effects of Covid-19
It wouldn't be pretty to watch on the field BUT in normal circumstances it should be possible to more or less break even in L1, especially as we now have no legacy high wage "Driesen" era players on the books. Or a moderate loss (from the cost of the academy) covered by player sales.
After all that's how it used to be not that long ago...
Of course Covid has thrown a massive spanner in football finances. PLUS the fact that ESI's presence will significantly reduce the crowds as well now
I'm sorry but that's complete nonsense. The club had an operating loss of £11.9m on turnover of £7.9m in 2018/19 and that was a year in which we reached the play-off final. How are you going to save £11.9m when operating expenses were £20m that season, even if the income were to be the same, which it won't be? Which players are you selling to offset it? The operating loss was £14.3m and £13.3m in the two previous L1 seasons.
Wouldn't it be better to buy the club for as little as possible then put it into admin at the last moment before the agreement to buy the freehold comes into effect and or we are in a comfortable points position - or at least threaten RD with this?
If you put it in admin, you can't buy it back out.
Do you know that for sure? Is it a football rule?
You can't put a business into administration then effectively buy it back from the administrator. Else everyone would do it all the time.
What you can do is liquidate, knock all your creditors and pop back up with a different name trading in exactly the same business as before. A certain orange faced baboon is famous for it. You can't do it with a football club because even the EFL would refuse you the golden share. Probably.
Can someone explain how/why we would go into admin if wages and bills are being paid on time?
I get that we don't know who is paying them, but they are being paid.
If the EFL refuses to allow the club to start next season without proof of funds and ESI cannot show it, they would presumably be trading insolvently pretty quickly - which is potentially a criminal offence. No central revenue, no ticket revenue because no matches and no demonstrable business plan. Yes, transfer fees, but to what end?
Someone has to show the EFL circa £20m to be allowed to continue. Anybody who does that with Duchatelet’s deal hanging over their head and without current independent means to pay it is likely to be a fool or a crook.
The first question is whether ESI can pay the July wages or will choose to do so. The second is who is putting up the £5m-£10m the club is likely to lose between now and next May, even allowing for transfer income. Break even budget in the Championship is a hefty loss in L1 and there is no equilibrium point. You cannot cut your way out of it even if the players are amateurs - and that’s before we get to the effects of Covid-19
It wouldn't be pretty to watch on the field BUT in normal circumstances it should be possible to more or less break even in L1, especially as we now have no legacy high wage "Driesen" era players on the books. Or a moderate loss (from the cost of the academy) covered by player sales.
After all that's how it used to be not that long ago...
Of course Covid has thrown a massive spanner in football finances. PLUS the fact that ESI's presence will significantly reduce the crowds as well now
I'm sorry but that's complete nonsense. The club had an operating loss of £11.9m on turnover of £7.9m in 2018/19 and that was a year in which we reached the play-off final. How are you going to save £11.9m when operating expenses were £20m that season, even if the income were to be the same, which it won't be? Which players are you selling to offset it? The operating loss was £14.3m and £13.3m in the two previous L1 seasons.
Why is Charlton so expensive to run? Especially when we have no real SLT, a small squad relatively big crowds?
I know the numbers are right but 8m turn over is massive compared to say Wycombe.
Can someone explain how/why we would go into admin if wages and bills are being paid on time?
I get that we don't know who is paying them, but they are being paid.
If the EFL refuses to allow the club to start next season without proof of funds and ESI cannot show it, they would presumably be trading insolvently pretty quickly - which is potentially a criminal offence. No central revenue, no ticket revenue because no matches and no demonstrable business plan. Yes, transfer fees, but to what end?
Someone has to show the EFL circa £20m to be allowed to continue. Anybody who does that with Duchatelet’s deal hanging over their head and without current independent means to pay it is likely to be a fool or a crook.
The first question is whether ESI can pay the July wages or will choose to do so. The second is who is putting up the £5m-£10m the club is likely to lose between now and next May, even allowing for transfer income. Break even budget in the Championship is a hefty loss in L1 and there is no equilibrium point. You cannot cut your way out of it even if the players are amateurs - and that’s before we get to the effects of Covid-19
It wouldn't be pretty to watch on the field BUT in normal circumstances it should be possible to more or less break even in L1, especially as we now have no legacy high wage "Driesen" era players on the books. Or a moderate loss (from the cost of the academy) covered by player sales.
After all that's how it used to be not that long ago...
Of course Covid has thrown a massive spanner in football finances. PLUS the fact that ESI's presence will significantly reduce the crowds as well now
I'm sorry but that's complete nonsense. The club had an operating loss of £11.9m on turnover of £7.9m in 2018/19 and that was a year in which we reached the play-off final. How are you going to save £11.9m when operating expenses were £20m that season, even if the income were to be the same, which it won't be? Which players are you selling to offset it? The operating loss was £14.3m and £13.3m in the two previous L1 seasons.
You're probably completely right about this but it does seem extraordinary that a League One club can cost around 20 million to run.
West Ham (as an example) get their stadium and match-day expenses for 2-3 million a year. Add 20 "normal" club employees at a (very) generous 100k each.
That leaves 15 million to pay for a "squad" of 30 players - average pay 500k per annum or 10k per week. Surely it doesn't cost that much to put out a decent team every week?
Wouldn't it be better to buy the club for as little as possible then put it into admin at the last moment before the agreement to buy the freehold comes into effect and or we are in a comfortable points position - or at least threaten RD with this?
If you put it in admin, you can't buy it back out.
Do you know that for sure? Is it a football rule?
You can't put a business into administration then effectively buy it back from the administrator. Else everyone would do it all the time.
What you can do is liquidate, knock all your creditors and pop back up with a different name trading in exactly the same business as before. A certain orange faced baboon is famous for it. You can't do it with a football club because even the EFL would refuse you the golden share. Probably.
Can someone explain how/why we would go into admin if wages and bills are being paid on time?
I get that we don't know who is paying them, but they are being paid.
If the EFL refuses to allow the club to start next season without proof of funds and ESI cannot show it, they would presumably be trading insolvently pretty quickly - which is potentially a criminal offence. No central revenue, no ticket revenue because no matches and no demonstrable business plan. Yes, transfer fees, but to what end?
Someone has to show the EFL circa £20m to be allowed to continue. Anybody who does that with Duchatelet’s deal hanging over their head and without current independent means to pay it is likely to be a fool or a crook.
The first question is whether ESI can pay the July wages or will choose to do so. The second is who is putting up the £5m-£10m the club is likely to lose between now and next May, even allowing for transfer income. Break even budget in the Championship is a hefty loss in L1 and there is no equilibrium point. You cannot cut your way out of it even if the players are amateurs - and that’s before we get to the effects of Covid-19
It wouldn't be pretty to watch on the field BUT in normal circumstances it should be possible to more or less break even in L1, especially as we now have no legacy high wage "Driesen" era players on the books. Or a moderate loss (from the cost of the academy) covered by player sales.
After all that's how it used to be not that long ago...
Of course Covid has thrown a massive spanner in football finances. PLUS the fact that ESI's presence will significantly reduce the crowds as well now
I'm sorry but that's complete nonsense. The club had an operating loss of £11.9m on turnover of £7.9m in 2018/19 and that was a year in which we reached the play-off final. How are you going to save £11.9m when operating expenses were £20m that season, even if the income were to be the same, which it won't be? Which players are you selling to offset it? The operating loss was £14.3m and £13.3m in the two previous L1 seasons.
Just because we heavily lost money that season doesn't mean we always have to. Especially as that side still had a few signings from our previous Championship campaign, the likes of Igor, Bauer, Sarr, and other players probably on big wages, the likes of Solly and Ajose
Burton Albion that season had a wage bill of around £6m versus our £10m and a loss of £1.9m vs our loss of £10m. And that was the season after they got relegated from the Championship, so would have had a higher cost structure than they would have done as a L1 club.
And out loss includes "accounting" costs likes depreciation and amortisation of £4m which aren't cash costs, and thus wouldn't be included if the EFL insisted on clubs being near break even on a cash basis.
Wouldn't it be better to buy the club for as little as possible then put it into admin at the last moment before the agreement to buy the freehold comes into effect and or we are in a comfortable points position - or at least threaten RD with this?
If you put it in admin, you can't buy it back out.
Do you know that for sure? Is it a football rule?
You can't put a business into administration then effectively buy it back from the administrator. Else everyone would do it all the time.
What you can do is liquidate, knock all your creditors and pop back up with a different name trading in exactly the same business as before. A certain orange faced baboon is famous for it. You can't do it with a football club because even the EFL would refuse you the golden share. Probably.
Is liquidation a genuine possibility?
If it happens it would be purely out of spite of who ever did it, as there would always be a buyer out of admin.
If we went into admin now, maybe that would encourage the EFL to penalise Wednesday and it will save Wigan. The Championship season hasn't ended until 4 August. It could save us too in terms of our future, rather than league position and give us a fighting chance next season in League One with scum like Duchatelet and the crooks removed.
I really don’t think it will take Duchatelet out of the picture. He’ll still own the ground and the training ground with no real incentive to sell for less than it’s worth*, certainly not quickly.
*worth in his eyes.
Well I think it is worth a lot of trouble for him going forwards.
What trouble though? There were enormous protests, which I support, against him both here and in his backyard to force him to sell. He sold the club and now we’re in a worse position than it he had just retained control of the club and property.
Before we start making “trouble” again we need to really think about what our options are and learn from previous mistakes.
too late for thinking, need action, fiddling while Rome burns
What would your thoughts be: Would PV/AB
likely walk away because it is not viable or would they have plan 'B'
say purchase the club and rent alternative ground.
Aside from ESI, are there other creditors who are ready to enforce their debts to push us into Administration?
Whether there are or not, will ESI continue to pay the bills if refused access to L1?
If there are no players, no costs of the ground or training ground what bills would they be left with?
If there are minimal external creditors, baring the ex directors and Roland, wouldn't liquidation be a cheaper option for them?
HMRC is bound to be a creditor and we're almost certainly in arrears for PAYE
aren't HMRC playing nice at the moment?
They play it nice with football clubs all the time - most EFL clubs will be in arrears. But there's a limit to the "COVID-holiday" and always a point with football clubs at which HMRC says enough is enough. EFL acting on the impasse with ESI, would make collection of what's due obviously improbable and could easily be the catalyst.
Administration should not be "an option". Businesses shouldn't choose to go bust and stiff their suppliers. If administration is inevitable, it shouldn't be a "choice"; in fact, it isn't a choice.
Football is full of cheats and scoundrels, spivs and agents, unscrupulous sleeveens, who don't blink at the opportunity to make a fast buck or avoid an invoice. Discussing the "merits" of administration exacerbates the ill-reputation that precedes many people own football clubs and most of the ragbag group of ne'er-do-wells who currently claim to own Charlton.
If you think administration is a good "route" for Charlton - or any other club - don't forget it's equally a looming cliff edge for many, many struggling businesses honestly trying to make a living.
Whoever it is, it's highly likely to be a loan, repayable very soon I suspect once some money comes trickling in from Transfers, sells on like Grant, season ticket money etc.
Comments
We're going to need as long as possible to sort this shit show out in time for a new season.
After all that's how it used to be not that long ago...
Of course Covid has thrown a massive spanner in football finances. PLUS the fact that ESI's presence will significantly reduce the crowds as well now
If our relegation helps crystallise this foundation, which I believe it will do, then it is ironically better than staying up.
What you can do is liquidate, knock all your creditors and pop back up with a different name trading in exactly the same business as before. A certain orange faced baboon is famous for it. You can't do it with a football club because even the EFL would refuse you the golden share. Probably.
I know the numbers are right but 8m turn over is massive compared to say Wycombe.
West Ham (as an example) get their stadium and match-day expenses for 2-3 million a year.
Add 20 "normal" club employees at a (very) generous 100k each.
That leaves 15 million to pay for a "squad" of 30 players - average pay 500k per annum or 10k per week. Surely it doesn't cost that much to put out a decent team every week?
Burton Albion that season had a wage bill of around £6m versus our £10m and a loss of £1.9m vs our loss of £10m. And that was the season after they got relegated from the Championship, so would have had a higher cost structure than they would have done as a L1 club.
And out loss includes "accounting" costs likes depreciation and amortisation of £4m which aren't cash costs, and thus wouldn't be included if the EFL insisted on clubs being near break even on a cash basis.
Who is actually paying them right now? At a guess?
Football is full of cheats and scoundrels, spivs and agents, unscrupulous sleeveens, who don't blink at the opportunity to make a fast buck or avoid an invoice. Discussing the "merits" of administration exacerbates the ill-reputation that precedes many people own football clubs and most of the ragbag group of ne'er-do-wells who currently claim to own Charlton.
If you think administration is a good "route" for Charlton - or any other club - don't forget it's equally a looming cliff edge for many, many struggling businesses honestly trying to make a living.
Couldn't PV and Co buy a new ground cheaper then 50m? If they brought the club in administration
Like 15,000-20,000 seater somewhere.
I know It's far from ideal and everyone might be like no way. And there is finding a suitable area, planning permition etc
But if it came to it, they could build something (or rent) cheaper then what RD's valuation of The Valley is?
And if they did go ahead with something like that, wouldn't RD be sitting on a useless bit of land? It's only real value is to CAFC?