Technology and social changes are surely more important. If more and more people (especially younger people who tend to buy more clothes) choose to buy online, more and more shops will shut down.
Many online retailers are poor employers and have complicated tax arrangements - this will have considerable implications. The power of a company such as Amazon will potentially give it far too much influence.
The world will increasingly be run by huge companies.
you mean like a variation of what Ike termed 'The Military Industrial Complex' though more geared towards consumer goods and advanced technology rather than weaponry and military hardware .. as in contemporary China .. rampant capitalism allied to a population tightly controlled and manipulated by a one party non-democratic government.. e.g. (Russia and China), what happens when a state based on 'communism' breaks down and quasi fascism results ?
I, quite bizarrely, love department stores. Think they have a great feel and buzz to them. Would love to run one. Really said to see them disappearing.
Like the black cab, high street shops are a thing of the past.... who cares.
Going back to my original comment on this, I’ll reiterate, it was borne of frustration at those who look at death of the High Street, the Black Cab, the Post Office and Bank branches as inconsequential progress.
The pubs will follow. We will have some nice new flats though.
Culturally, we’re heading headlong into an online abyss, but that’s progress.
I’m not Debenhams biggest fan although I have bought some shorts from there. Now though, I’ll know where to go to buy a jungle leaf print jump suit made by a 5 year old in Cambodia.
I, quite bizarrely, love department stores. Think they have a great feel and buzz to them. Would love to run one. Really said to see them disappearing.
I, quite bizarrely, love department stores. Think they have a great feel and buzz to them. Would love to run one. Really said to see them disappearing.
Me too. I like shopping, I can see what things actually look like on the shelf, I like to see how sturdy things are, how heavy they are, what fabric they are made from, what colour they are in "real life". I can browse through CDs/LPs in a record shop and books in a bookshop and come across something I didn't know I wanted. I can try clothes on, I can smell aftershaves and see art, ceramics and metalwork made by designers that I would have no idea existed until I was in an actual shop.
I think the High Street may change, and that landlords may have to rethink their rental charges for that change to tale place, but I can also see a vinyl-like comeback in a few years time.
I think @Algarveaddick the main non-Covid problem is, in general, a large batch of people like you and me do like still doing that. They then go home and buy it online from somewhere cheaper (bar Primark). That’s an issue that needs to be overcome.
The tax regime in this country needs a rapid change. Online retail has a few advantages over physical but one great big one is that Amazon pay naff all tax. That must change and we must start taxing based on where something is bought not where it is sold. Should have done so some years ago as it would have levelled the playing field and given some of the physical retailers a chance.
apart from Supermarkets (and even then if we need a massive shop - we'll book an online delivery) we just don't go to shops anymore, we must be getting at least 1 or 2 deliveries a day from Amazon and the like.
Even after all this is over I don't see that changing.
I think @Algarveaddick the main non-Covid problem is, in general, a large batch of people like you and me do like still doing that. They then go home and buy it online from somewhere cheaper (bar Primark). That’s an issue that needs to be overcome.
Yes - that's true. I don't do that as I tend to buy in sales anyway. As @Athletico Charlton says, the government needs to at least stop deliberately giving companies like Amazon an advantage, and at best start levelling the playing field. Presumably if it was something that could not be addressed before Brexit, the goverment can now act straight away to help...
I think @Algarveaddick the main non-Covid problem is, in general, a large batch of people like you and me do like still doing that. They then go home and buy it online from somewhere cheaper (bar Primark). That’s an issue that needs to be overcome.
Yes - that's true. I don't do that as I tend to buy in sales anyway. As @Athletico Charlton says, the government needs to at least stop deliberately giving companies like Amazon an advantage, and at best start levelling the playing field. Presumably if it was something that could not be addressed before Brexit, the goverment can now act straight away to help...
Not sure how you level the playing field. Not having to have a physical shop is always, on scale, going to be more cost effective than having one as long as you can attract the virtual footfall.
I, quite bizarrely, love department stores. Think they have a great feel and buzz to them. Would love to run one. Really said to see them disappearing.
I think @Algarveaddick the main non-Covid problem is, in general, a large batch of people like you and me do like still doing that. They then go home and buy it online from somewhere cheaper (bar Primark). That’s an issue that needs to be overcome.
Yes - that's true. I don't do that as I tend to buy in sales anyway. As @Athletico Charlton says, the government needs to at least stop deliberately giving companies like Amazon an advantage, and at best start levelling the playing field. Presumably if it was something that could not be addressed before Brexit, the goverment can now act straight away to help...
Not sure how you level the playing field. Not having to have a physical shop is always, on scale, going to be more cost effective than having one as long as you can attract the virtual footfall.
You tax online business at a higher rate, instead of a lower one (as in the case of Amazon).
Indeed you increase the end consumer tax, VAT to 30%. Whilst it would be us paying it, you enforce on shit service companies like Deliveroo that it is not passed onto the restaurant's margin. In essence eating in your local take away would always be 10% cheaper, whilst allowing retailers some margin equalising against monopolies like Amazon's anti-competitive price setting.
I think @Algarveaddick the main non-Covid problem is, in general, a large batch of people like you and me do like still doing that. They then go home and buy it online from somewhere cheaper (bar Primark). That’s an issue that needs to be overcome.
Yes - that's true. I don't do that as I tend to buy in sales anyway. As @Athletico Charlton says, the government needs to at least stop deliberately giving companies like Amazon an advantage, and at best start levelling the playing field. Presumably if it was something that could not be addressed before Brexit, the goverment can now act straight away to help...
Not sure how you level the playing field. Not having to have a physical shop is always, on scale, going to be more cost effective than having one as long as you can attract the virtual footfall.
You tax online business at a higher rate, instead of a lower one (as in the case of Amazon).
So that's not a level playing field then. It's penalising online for having a lower cost base and subsidising 'on the high street' for having a higher cost base.
I think @Algarveaddick the main non-Covid problem is, in general, a large batch of people like you and me do like still doing that. They then go home and buy it online from somewhere cheaper (bar Primark). That’s an issue that needs to be overcome.
Yes - that's true. I don't do that as I tend to buy in sales anyway. As @Athletico Charlton says, the government needs to at least stop deliberately giving companies like Amazon an advantage, and at best start levelling the playing field. Presumably if it was something that could not be addressed before Brexit, the goverment can now act straight away to help...
Not sure how you level the playing field. Not having to have a physical shop is always, on scale, going to be more cost effective than having one as long as you can attract the virtual footfall.
You tax online business at a higher rate, instead of a lower one (as in the case of Amazon).
So that's not a level playing field then. It's penalising online for having a lower cost base and subsidising 'on the high street' for having a higher cost base.
It is not a level playing field when Amazon pay less tax than Fred's Butchers.
But fair enough, let's call it that then. Unlevelling the playing field so that high street shops can compete with online retailers, thereby preserving tradition, social interaction and jobs.
Online retailers are allowed to take the p*** by existing tax laws and it's got to the stage where governments are scared of upsetting multinationals. Amazon will gradually take over more and more of the market with no thought to the implications - they will simply kill the opposition.
Online retailers have no shop costs but they do have huge delivery costs and returns to deal with. By doing the top 3 things it would have given physical stores a chance. The Govt has fudged up as they have left it too late.
Debenhams and Arcadia = 11,000,000 sqft of empty space on their own. Let alone all the others whom have and will go bust.
The crazy thing is that Local Authorities own vast amounts of our shopping centres so will be £m's++ worse off... For example there is a shopping centre in Coventry heading into Allsop Property auction at £5.5M, last valued in 2013 at £37.5M !
The hope is that some of the retail gains a more prominent leisure feel. I see Trafford Centre in Manchester is about to have a huge surf destination created, things like that and Ski centres may fill some of the gaps left by huge anchor retailers failing.
Online retailers are allowed to take the p*** by existing tax laws and it's got to the stage where governments are scared of upsetting multinationals. Amazon will gradually take over more and more of the market with no thought to the implications - they will simply kill the opposition.
Monopolies are not a good thing.
There's a TV programme about Amazon and their business model. It explains how they looked at ebay and created something similar but with some improvements. In the previous definition of monopolies, it was assumed that companies were merged or taken over to create a monopoly, but what Amazon do is kill the competition. Amounts to the same thing.
Once companies move online where and how you tax them becomes a problem, which I don't see being properly addressed by our current crop of politicians.
I think @Algarveaddick the main non-Covid problem is, in general, a large batch of people like you and me do like still doing that. They then go home and buy it online from somewhere cheaper (bar Primark). That’s an issue that needs to be overcome.
Yes - that's true. I don't do that as I tend to buy in sales anyway. As @Athletico Charlton says, the government needs to at least stop deliberately giving companies like Amazon an advantage, and at best start levelling the playing field. Presumably if it was something that could not be addressed before Brexit, the goverment can now act straight away to help...
Not sure how you level the playing field. Not having to have a physical shop is always, on scale, going to be more cost effective than having one as long as you can attract the virtual footfall.
You tax online business at a higher rate, instead of a lower one (as in the case of Amazon).
So that's not a level playing field then. It's penalising online for having a lower cost base and subsidising 'on the high street' for having a higher cost base.
It is not a level playing field when Amazon pay less tax than Fred's Butchers.
But fair enough, let's call it that then. Unlevelling the playing field so that high street shops can compete with online retailers, thereby preserving tradition, social interaction and jobs.
Totally agree re Amazon (and others).
It's a difficult one, do we subsidise all online v in person business? What if I run an online estate agency? Or Recruitment, betting shop or 1,001 other business types. Will I now pay more tax?
Online retailers are allowed to take the p*** by existing tax laws and it's got to the stage where governments are scared of upsetting multinationals. Amazon will gradually take over more and more of the market with no thought to the implications - they will simply kill the opposition.
Monopolies are not a good thing.
There's a TV programme about Amazon and their business model. It explains how they looked at ebay and created something similar but with some improvements. In the previous definition of monopolies, it was assumed that companies were merged or taken over to create a monopoly, but what Amazon do is kill the competition. Amounts to the same thing.
Once companies move online where and how you tax them becomes a problem, which I don't see being properly addressed by our current crop of politicians.
Don't like Amazon's business model and rarely use them. I do use Ebay a fair amount and it does seem to give retailers a chance.
A move to online shopping was inevitable but has been hugely accelerated in the last 12 months. Sunak and the tory government have an opportunity to grasp a nettle if they have any real concern for high street or local retail. An online shopping surcharge, ringfenced for redistribution to 'traditional' retail. In the summer Bojo T Clown and the cabal were bleating at city workers to return to their offices from working at home, to "protect all the service industries around the employment hotspots" - chaotically, moronically badly timed when travel and association were still so pointlessly dangerous obvs. There clearly was some pressure from those service sectors or the cabal wouldn't have known or said anything. Additional fees & charges of any kind are unwelcome and strongly resisted - impose an additional "internet tax" and it will shove some consumers out their front door and into the shops. Need convincing? All the current noise about additional fees, import duty, VAT, etc on imported goods and goods manufactured from non EU components. Incidentally all those fees and duties were always going to crystallize on Brexit + 1 day but that issue was absolutely specifically suppressed from the proles, by the cabal.
Is an internet shopping surcharge likely? Maybe not. The tory regime has been keen and quick to dole out some support to some sectors, cos there's (fleeting) glory to be had. It is a simpering pant wetting coward when it comes to doing anything that's tabloid unpopular, unless the paymasters decree and then it's all systems go, yes sir how much was your party donation by the way? Properly taxing the amazons, starbucks and their shameless tax dodging ilk should be page one of the post brexit 'taking back sovereignty' plan but the silence there has been deafening and telling.
I think @Algarveaddick the main non-Covid problem is, in general, a large batch of people like you and me do like still doing that. They then go home and buy it online from somewhere cheaper (bar Primark). That’s an issue that needs to be overcome.
Yes - that's true. I don't do that as I tend to buy in sales anyway. As @Athletico Charlton says, the government needs to at least stop deliberately giving companies like Amazon an advantage, and at best start levelling the playing field. Presumably if it was something that could not be addressed before Brexit, the goverment can now act straight away to help...
Not sure how you level the playing field. Not having to have a physical shop is always, on scale, going to be more cost effective than having one as long as you can attract the virtual footfall.
You tax online business at a higher rate, instead of a lower one (as in the case of Amazon).
So that's not a level playing field then. It's penalising online for having a lower cost base and subsidising 'on the high street' for having a higher cost base.
It is not a level playing field when Amazon pay less tax than Fred's Butchers.
But fair enough, let's call it that then. Unlevelling the playing field so that high street shops can compete with online retailers, thereby preserving tradition, social interaction and jobs.
Fully agreed that they must pay the relevant tax amount.
Instinctively I agree with you about saving the high street - I also quite enjoy some shopping trips.
I think @Algarveaddick the main non-Covid problem is, in general, a large batch of people like you and me do like still doing that. They then go home and buy it online from somewhere cheaper (bar Primark). That’s an issue that needs to be overcome.
Yes - that's true. I don't do that as I tend to buy in sales anyway. As @Athletico Charlton says, the government needs to at least stop deliberately giving companies like Amazon an advantage, and at best start levelling the playing field. Presumably if it was something that could not be addressed before Brexit, the goverment can now act straight away to help...
Not sure how you level the playing field. Not having to have a physical shop is always, on scale, going to be more cost effective than having one as long as you can attract the virtual footfall.
You tax online business at a higher rate, instead of a lower one (as in the case of Amazon).
So that's not a level playing field then. It's penalising online for having a lower cost base and subsidising 'on the high street' for having a higher cost base.
It is not a level playing field when Amazon pay less tax than Fred's Butchers.
But fair enough, let's call it that then. Unlevelling the playing field so that high street shops can compete with online retailers, thereby preserving tradition, social interaction and jobs.
Totally agree re Amazon (and others).
It's a difficult one, do we subsidise all online v in person business? What if I run an online estate agency? Or Recruitment, betting shop or 1,001 other business types. Will I now pay more tax?
Just thinking on my feet, companies where the majority of their sales are online are subject to the tax? Or they need to separate the online from the high street sales and pay different tax accordingly when they are both high street and online - some goods are subject to different VAT rates, so I guess it could work? Maybe you restrict it to "proper" retail as opposed to services? I am sure there are anomalies, so it would need careful consideration, but nothing is impossible.
Oxford Street is going to be really weird without Debenhams and Top Shop
I can remember the likes of HMV, Virgin, C&A and BHS who are no longer there, but this is very different as there are no obvious takers for the large sites.
Do locals still go shopping up Oxford Street? I thought it was just a tourist hotspot.
I worked just off it for 5 years and absolutely hated it. I do think though that when (eventually) Crossrail starts and I can get there from Woolwich in 20 minutes, I might be more inclined to take a trip up there.
As for local high streets, I'd like to see them move to a pedestrianised, residential/retail mix. The retail more likely to be the express/metro versions of the supermarkets as well as small chains or one-off boutiques with a good mix of cafes/bars/restaurants to keep the area "alive" in the evenings. There really has to be a re-think about rents and rates to allow this to happen and then prosper, but local councils have got to be cleverer about their re-generation plans.
I think @Algarveaddick the main non-Covid problem is, in general, a large batch of people like you and me do like still doing that. They then go home and buy it online from somewhere cheaper (bar Primark). That’s an issue that needs to be overcome.
Yes - that's true. I don't do that as I tend to buy in sales anyway. As @Athletico Charlton says, the government needs to at least stop deliberately giving companies like Amazon an advantage, and at best start levelling the playing field. Presumably if it was something that could not be addressed before Brexit, the goverment can now act straight away to help...
Not sure how you level the playing field. Not having to have a physical shop is always, on scale, going to be more cost effective than having one as long as you can attract the virtual footfall.
You tax online business at a higher rate, instead of a lower one (as in the case of Amazon).
So that's not a level playing field then. It's penalising online for having a lower cost base and subsidising 'on the high street' for having a higher cost base.
It is not a level playing field when Amazon pay less tax than Fred's Butchers.
But fair enough, let's call it that then. Unlevelling the playing field so that high street shops can compete with online retailers, thereby preserving tradition, social interaction and jobs.
Fully agreed that they must pay the relevant tax amount.
Instinctively I agree with you about saving the high street - I also quite enjoy some shopping trips.
Yes, what's the cause and effect. Do we online shop because it's a better experience, because we are last, or because it's cheaper? I'm sure there are people here who go to a shop, avail themselves of the advice and then buy the product elsewhere online. If shops go then a valuable source of interaction and advice goes with it. Maybe the types of shop will change but it has to be made possible with rents etc
Any sort of additional "online only" fees are just going to hurt small time operators whilst doing nothing to effect Amazon.
If we say all online sales attract a fee than that hurts everyone (apart from maybe Primark), and punishes people who can't/won't travel to a store.
If we say fees apply to online only retailers, then Amazon just rents a couple of stores (which will be cheap as there is a major over-supply of retail premises currently). Result, Amazon aren't effected in the slightest, but thousands of sole proprietors are put out of business.
If we come up with a more complicated method to target big online only retailers whilst avoiding punishing small businesses then there will inevitably be loopholes, winners/losers near whatever threshold is set, large companies creating a million smaller subsidiaries and farming out orders to keep each under the threshold. Result, once again Amazon will find a way not to be effected and smaller businesses will suffer, either through more red tap, or being a loser on the arbitrary threshold.
The first thing that needs to happen is Amazon (et al) have to be made to pay their taxes. Yes they'll still be cheaper, but not by such a large margin, making the choice between price/service/convenience a closer decision.
The other solution, rather than an online tax would be a delivery tax. That would definitely have an effect on Amazon's bottom line, and it would be far easier to set a sliding scale based on number of deliveries per time period from a location. Amazon's choice would be to then either charge more, or have a far larger number of smaller fulfilment centres. The later would massively increase costs, thus achieving the same price rise. Having a sliding scale based on number of items shipped would be far gentler to smaller businesses.
The advantage of a tax on number of parcels dispatched from each location would also have other benefits. It would encourage batching of items in a single package (thus reducing packaging waste) and encourage batching deliveries (rather than have a single Amazon order with 3 items coming as 3 deliveries on different days) thus reducing traffic and therefore polution.
Comments
The pubs will follow. We will have some nice new flats though.
Culturally, we’re heading headlong into an online abyss, but that’s progress.
I’m not Debenhams biggest fan although I have bought some shorts from there. Now though, I’ll know where to go to buy a jungle leaf print jump suit made by a 5 year old in Cambodia.
I think the High Street may change, and that landlords may have to rethink their rental charges for that change to tale place, but I can also see a vinyl-like comeback in a few years time.
Even after all this is over I don't see that changing.
But fair enough, let's call it that then. Unlevelling the playing field so that high street shops can compete with online retailers, thereby preserving tradition, social interaction and jobs.
Monopolies are not a good thing.
Online retailers have no shop costs but they do have huge delivery costs and returns to deal with. By doing the top 3 things it would have given physical stores a chance. The Govt has fudged up as they have left it too late.
Debenhams and Arcadia = 11,000,000 sqft of empty space on their own. Let alone all the others whom have and will go bust.
The crazy thing is that Local Authorities own vast amounts of our shopping centres so will be £m's++ worse off... For example there is a shopping centre in Coventry heading into Allsop Property auction at £5.5M, last valued in 2013 at £37.5M !
The hope is that some of the retail gains a more prominent leisure feel. I see Trafford Centre in Manchester is about to have a huge surf destination created, things like that and Ski centres may fill some of the gaps left by huge anchor retailers failing.
Once companies move online where and how you tax them becomes a problem, which I don't see being properly addressed by our current crop of politicians.
It's a difficult one, do we subsidise all online v in person business? What if I run an online estate agency? Or Recruitment, betting shop or 1,001 other business types. Will I now pay more tax?
Sunak and the tory government have an opportunity to grasp a nettle if they have any real concern for high street or local retail.
An online shopping surcharge, ringfenced for redistribution to 'traditional' retail.
In the summer Bojo T Clown and the cabal were bleating at city workers to return to their offices from working at home, to "protect all the service industries around the employment hotspots" - chaotically, moronically badly timed when travel and association were still so pointlessly dangerous obvs. There clearly was some pressure from those service sectors or the cabal wouldn't have known or said anything.
Additional fees & charges of any kind are unwelcome and strongly resisted - impose an additional "internet tax" and it will shove some consumers out their front door and into the shops. Need convincing? All the current noise about additional fees, import duty, VAT, etc on imported goods and goods manufactured from non EU components. Incidentally all those fees and duties were always going to crystallize on Brexit + 1 day but that issue was absolutely specifically suppressed from the proles, by the cabal.
Is an internet shopping surcharge likely? Maybe not. The tory regime has been keen and quick to dole out some support to some sectors, cos there's (fleeting) glory to be had. It is a simpering pant wetting coward when it comes to doing anything that's tabloid unpopular, unless the paymasters decree and then it's all systems go, yes sir how much was your party donation by the way?
Properly taxing the amazons, starbucks and their shameless tax dodging ilk should be page one of the post brexit 'taking back sovereignty' plan but the silence there has been deafening and telling.
Instinctively I agree with you about saving the high street - I also quite enjoy some shopping trips.
But we cannot, nor should we, stop progress.
As for local high streets, I'd like to see them move to a pedestrianised, residential/retail mix. The retail more likely to be the express/metro versions of the supermarkets as well as small chains or one-off boutiques with a good mix of cafes/bars/restaurants to keep the area "alive" in the evenings. There really has to be a re-think about rents and rates to allow this to happen and then prosper, but local councils have got to be cleverer about their re-generation plans.
If we say all online sales attract a fee than that hurts everyone (apart from maybe Primark), and punishes people who can't/won't travel to a store.
If we say fees apply to online only retailers, then Amazon just rents a couple of stores (which will be cheap as there is a major over-supply of retail premises currently). Result, Amazon aren't effected in the slightest, but thousands of sole proprietors are put out of business.
If we come up with a more complicated method to target big online only retailers whilst avoiding punishing small businesses then there will inevitably be loopholes, winners/losers near whatever threshold is set, large companies creating a million smaller subsidiaries and farming out orders to keep each under the threshold. Result, once again Amazon will find a way not to be effected and smaller businesses will suffer, either through more red tap, or being a loser on the arbitrary threshold.
The first thing that needs to happen is Amazon (et al) have to be made to pay their taxes. Yes they'll still be cheaper, but not by such a large margin, making the choice between price/service/convenience a closer decision.
The other solution, rather than an online tax would be a delivery tax. That would definitely have an effect on Amazon's bottom line, and it would be far easier to set a sliding scale based on number of deliveries per time period from a location. Amazon's choice would be to then either charge more, or have a far larger number of smaller fulfilment centres. The later would massively increase costs, thus achieving the same price rise. Having a sliding scale based on number of items shipped would be far gentler to smaller businesses.
The advantage of a tax on number of parcels dispatched from each location would also have other benefits. It would encourage batching of items in a single package (thus reducing packaging waste) and encourage batching deliveries (rather than have a single Amazon order with 3 items coming as 3 deliveries on different days) thus reducing traffic and therefore polution.