David Warner, Marcus Harris, Marnus Labuschagne, Steve Smith, Travis Head, Usman Khawaja, Cameron Green, Tim Paine (captain), Pat Cummins, Mitchell Starc, Josh Hazlewood, Nathan Lyon, Jhye Richardson, Michael Neser, Mitchell Swepson.
Surprised no Mitch Marsh.
There is an opportunity for us I think with their bowlers now that Pattinson has retired. They largely have the 4 of Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc and Lyon. The rest have very few if any test caps/experience. Going into tests with just those 4 is a pretty large risk given their collective injury history. Cam Green is the only allrounder option as Marsh is surprisingly not included despite being in good form. Starc could either have a Mitchell Johnson 2011 or a Mitchell Johnson 2013 sort of series. He could blow us away or he could be the bowler that we target. If they do go for the 4 bowler approach we could attack starc and see if we can put more bowling workload on Cummins/hazlewood to the point where they might not be able to play all 4 tests.
We should also be able to target Paine. I don't understand how he has survived this long in test cricket. he cant bat, cant review and his keeping has got worse. We need to target him.
Agree with all of that but wouldn't underestimate Jhye Richardson. Always impressed me in white ball but is now backing that up in the Sheffield Shield - his figures this season to date are 16 wickets at 12.50 and an ER of 2.34 - and we have to remember that our batting line up isn't filled with superstars.
He said Hoggard phoned him up to apologize. Fair play
Hoggard's behaviour sounded pretty awful - doesn't reflect well on him at all regardless of any apology. The bullying culture sounds terrible.
It doesn't you're right, but at least he's owning it and ringing him up to apologise is a lot better than the likes of Vaughan denying it and basically saying Rafiq is lying.
"Some, such as Matthew Hoggard, have already reached out to apologise for their behaviour – Hoggard did so long before any report was planned, too, suggesting a genuine sorrow rather than any cynical attempt to save his skin"
He said Hoggard phoned him up to apologize. Fair play
Hoggard's behaviour sounded pretty awful - doesn't reflect well on him at all regardless of any apology. The bullying culture sounds terrible.
It doesn't you're right, but at least he's owning it and ringing him up to apologise is a lot better than the likes of Vaughan denying it and basically saying Rafiq is lying.
"Some, such as Matthew Hoggard, have already reached out to apologise for their behaviour – Hoggard did so long before any report was planned, too, suggesting a genuine sorrow rather than any cynical attempt to save his skin"
You're right - people can change and let's hope others own up to their behaviour. I'm sure there will be plenty more examples of racism and bullying to be unearthed in cricket.
David Warner, Marcus Harris, Marnus Labuschagne, Steve Smith, Travis Head, Usman Khawaja, Cameron Green, Tim Paine (captain), Pat Cummins, Mitchell Starc, Josh Hazlewood, Nathan Lyon, Jhye Richardson, Michael Neser, Mitchell Swepson.
Surprised no Mitch Marsh.
There is an opportunity for us I think with their bowlers now that Pattinson has retired. They largely have the 4 of Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc and Lyon. The rest have very few if any test caps/experience. Going into tests with just those 4 is a pretty large risk given their collective injury history. Cam Green is the only allrounder option as Marsh is surprisingly not included despite being in good form. Starc could either have a Mitchell Johnson 2011 or a Mitchell Johnson 2013 sort of series. He could blow us away or he could be the bowler that we target. If they do go for the 4 bowler approach we could attack starc and see if we can put more bowling workload on Cummins/hazlewood to the point where they might not be able to play all 4 tests.
We should also be able to target Paine. I don't understand how he has survived this long in test cricket. he cant bat, cant review and his keeping has got worse. We need to target him.
Agree with all of that but wouldn't underestimate Jhye Richardson. Always impressed me in white ball but is now backing that up in the Sheffield Shield - his figures this season to date are 16 wickets at 12.50 and an ER of 2.34 - and we have to remember that our batting line up isn't filled with superstars.
Agree he has looked good I was thinking more on the lack of test experience front. I also rate Nesser but none of them have been blooded yet. big ask to get thrown into an ashes series with no experience.
Catching up on all this news especially the vaughn comments that he allegedly said and even though i find him an arrogant arse, what he said im not understanding if i would of reacted to it. Strange comment, not funny would I or anyone be that offended by it? Possibly but I can see why it can be classed as racist. It's suggesting that Asians don't represent Yorkshire and we need to do something about it. Vaughn is an arse, he's arrogant, he supports Wednesday (ultimate big heads) but did he really know what he said is out of order? I originally thought that even though I'm not keen on the bloke he was misunderstood but more I think about the comment I really can't understand why someone would say it without it coming out as deorgatory.
There are going to be people who are going to get lumped into this who will have said something that was clearly wrong on an occasion and have apologised for it and others that just stood by when this was going on. They, in my opinion, should not be tarred with the same brush as those who have been consistently racist in both their words and actions. Those people have no right to be in the game.
I say this because everyone deserves a second chance. As Rafiq got himself when he was the captain of the England U19s.
John Abrahams is black and was the U19s coach. He came here with his father, Cec from South
Africa in the 1960s. Cec had made his name both as a fast-bowling
allrounder and a man of principle - he led the successful campaign against
non-white teams being organised into different racial groups which he regarded
as a surrender to apartheid. John played for and captained Lancashire before he became a coach.
Below is what Rafiq tweeted after he was dropped from the under-19 team to face Sri Lanka, when it is thought his habit of staying out after agreed curfews during matches became an issue:
"What a fxxxing farsee [sic]. John
Abrahams is a useless c***. ECB prove it again what incompetent people are
working for them." Next day, he tweeted again: "John Abrahams is a
useless w******r."
There are plenty of players who are dropped or
who do not get selected in the first place. They still know what is the right and wrong way to deal with that. Players are “selected against” for reasons other than race - because they don't go
to the right school or play for the right club. Or speak the right way. It
might not be a racial issue but it is still a prejudice and cricket is littered
with it.
There is an inherent lack of black coaches in not just cricket but football and
other sports too and Abrahams was one of the first to be put in charge of an
England team. Rafiq's own outburst did absolutely nothing to enhance Abrahams'
reputation as a coach and might even have served to add to any bias that
already existed and clearly still exists now. The irony is that the son of
someone who fought hard to fight massive scale racial prejudice was abused by
someone who would later become a victim himself of that very thing.
Rafiq says that these revelations aren't about personal vendettas. Unfortunately, there will be people who, by association and being in the dressing room at the time these comments were made, will be considered racists too by their own inaction. For that they should apologise. Their weakness and inability to stand up is desperately disappointing but when one considers the strong bond between the main culprits - the coach Gale, his brother in law, Bresnan plus the captain, Ballance and assistant coach, Pyrah as well as Moxon, the Director of Cricket - it would have potentially been career suicide for them to stand up for what was and remains right. Rafiq, himself, felt he couldn't do so and had to be seen to mix in with the group. He even returned to Yorkshire because, as he says, he had to put food on the table. This would be no different for others in that dressing room.
As I've mentioned previously on here, I am the son of a couple of Hungarian immigrants. Yes those racist Hungarians I keep reading about. Despicable - every single one of them such is alleged by some following the actions and deeds of their supporters and Government.
Despite the fact that I was born here that that did not change some people's perception that I was different. I can't honestly say that I was the victim of overt racism but that did not stop the mockery. You had to laugh along with it because your friends did too. That didn't mean that it was an enjoyable experience because it wasn't and in hindsight it did affect me because I was deemed to be "different". We are talking about the late 1960s/early 1970s and there really weren't many that were "different" in that respect. Would I hold all those people accountable now? Some yes but some of those that laughed along are still friends today. Rafiq has even stated Joe Root falls into that category.
Non acceptance of people of a different creed and culture was a disease at Yorkshire that came from the top. As I say, though, not every person mentioned in Rafiq's statement is a racist. And they shouldn't be treated as such. Let's clean up the game once and for all but not make people who are inherently good become part of a vendetta. We need to bring them with us and ban those proven to be racists.
There are going to be people who are going to get lumped into this who will have said something that was clearly wrong on an occasion and have apologised for it and others that just stood by when this was going on. They, in my opinion, should not be tarred with the same brush as those who have been consistently racist in both their words and actions. Those people have no right to be in the game.
I say this because everyone deserves a second chance. As Rafiq got himself when he was the captain of the England U19s.
John Abrahams is black and was the U19s coach. He came here with his father, Cec from South
Africa in the 1960s. Cec had made his name both as a fast-bowling
allrounder and a man of principle - he led the successful campaign against
non-white teams being organised into different racial groups which he regarded
as a surrender to apartheid. John played for and captained Lancashire before he became a coach.
Below is what Rafiq tweeted after he was dropped from the under-19 team to face Sri Lanka, when it is thought his habit of staying out after agreed curfews during matches became an issue:
"What a fxxxing farsee [sic]. John
Abrahams is a useless c***. ECB prove it again what incompetent people are
working for them." Next day, he tweeted again: "John Abrahams is a
useless w******r."
There are plenty of players who are dropped or
who do not get selected in the first place. They still know what is the right and wrong way to deal with that. Players are “selected against” for reasons other than race - because they don't go
to the right school or play for the right club. Or speak the right way. It
might not be a racial issue but it is still a prejudice and cricket is littered
with it.
There is an inherent lack of black coaches in not just cricket but football and
other sports too and Abrahams was one of the first to be put in charge of an
England team. Rafiq's own outburst did absolutely nothing to enhance Abrahams'
reputation as a coach and might even have served to add to any bias that
already existed and clearly still exists now. The irony is that the son of
someone who fought hard to fight massive scale racial prejudice was abused by
someone who would later become a victim himself of that very thing.
Rafiq says that these revelations aren't about personal vendettas. Unfortunately, there will be people who, by association and being in the dressing room at the time these comments were made, will be considered racists too by their own inaction. For that they should apologise. Their weakness and inability to stand up is desperately disappointing but when one considers the strong bond between the main culprits - the coach Gale, his brother in law, Bresnan plus the captain, Ballance and assistant coach, Pyrah as well as Moxon, the Director of Cricket - it would have potentially been career suicide for them to stand up for what was and remains right. Rafiq, himself, felt he couldn't do so and had to be seen to mix in with the group. He even returned to Yorkshire because, as he says, he had to put food on the table. This would be no different for others in that dressing room.
As I've mentioned previously on here, I am the son of a couple of Hungarian immigrants. Yes those racist Hungarians I keep reading about. Despicable - every single one of them such is alleged by some following the actions and deeds of their supporters and Government.
Despite the fact that I was born here that that did not change some people's perception that I was different. I can't honestly say that I was the victim of overt racism but that did not stop the mockery. You had to laugh along with it because your friends did too. That didn't mean that it was an enjoyable experience because it wasn't and in hindsight it did affect me because I was deemed to be "different". We are talking about the late 1960s/early 1970s and there really weren't many that were "different" in that respect. Would I hold all those people accountable now? Some yes but some of those that laughed along are still friends today. Rafiq has even stated Joe Root falls into that category.
Non acceptance of people of a different creed and culture was a disease at Yorkshire that came from the top. As I say, though, not every person mentioned in Rafiq's statement is a racist. And they shouldn't be treated as such. Let's clean up the game once and for all but not make people who are inherently good become part of a vendetta. We need to bring them with us and ban those proven to be racists.
If people want to change they'll change - others simply won't acknowledge the problem. The investigation by Yorkshire was pretty farcical and showed those in charge once again to be out of touch. Nobody will raise a complaint whatever structures are in place if it's not taken seriously.
A lot of this could have been avoided had action been taken earlier and serious intent shown. We have to hope cricket moves forward from here.
I'll be laying $100 on us getting swept 5-0, their bowling will go through our batting like a bad curry through a piss head.
As for the racism stuff, it's absolutely appalling that this stuff is going on in this day and age, it certainly wouldn't happen in the corporate world, or at least not in the world that I mix in, absolutely no chance.
Michael Vaughan has fucked himself very badly indeed, I don't believe that he is a racist but the stuff he said was very ill-advised even if he meant it as a 'joke' towards his team-mates.
As my old boss at the Financial Times once said to me, "Everything looks bad in 36pt Times New Roman" and he was spot on, what Vaughan said to his team mates in 2009, possibly with a big smile on his face and with no bad intent, is completely different twelve years later in cold, hard print.
He should have just owned up to it and apologized and said he didn't realize at the time how offensive it was and that he deeply regrets any offence caused, it's pretty straightforward really, but by denying it he is just making it worse for himself.
The whole situation is a complete mess and it won't be just Yorkshire that have behaved appallingly, there will be plenty more out there as well.
Can you expand on this bit?
Sure, I have worked at several multi nationals and the idea that you could call someone a Paki or ridicule them in any way would be considered unthinkable.
Working at a major bank now and they take this stuff incredibly seriously, if you racially abused someone and they complained then you would be sacked immediately.
Sure, at some smaller workplaces you'd still get racist stuff but the major employers are heavily invested in diversity and inclusion and the stuff that happened to Rafiq would be nippee in the bud very fast.
Of course there will be cases from time to time but nothing as protracted as what took place at YCCC.
This is really interesting and I believe every word of what you've said. But I wonder if the Chairman of Yorkshire Cricket also thought the same thing? In other words, every decent organisation would claim that anyone racially abusing a colleague would be sacked; but does it ever actually come to pass? Or are there corporates who promulgate their own corporate social responsibility and promotion of diversity who also have (junior) colleagues who still indulge in what they think of as 'banter'?
I have worked for bit corporations who promote inclusivity and intolerance of prejudice (and I wouldn't work for any company who didn't). But I am sure in the bowels of those organisations, some conscious or unconscious bias takes place, unabated.
What I think I am trying to say is that no-one can point a finger at Yorkshire CCC and tell themselves they don't have to work harder themselves in their own organisations.
That’s the whole point though, isn’t it?
The rest of the world, major corporations and government departments have moved on and are actively anti-racist - but up in Leeds YCCC are still behaving like it was 1974.
Like I say, you are going to get some cases dealt with inadequately, especially at smaller companies, but very hard to see how a ten year campaign of racism is going to go unchecked.
Why? Simple, look at what happened to the reputation of YCCC this last week.
No corporation is ever going to want to be in that position.
Pandora's box had to be opened in Yorkshire cricket for various reasons:
Amazing to think that before 1992, the birth qualification rule was first modified to include those educated within the county, a dispensation that allowed Michael Vaughan to play; and was then abandoned altogether. Yorkshire's first overseas player that season was 19-year old Sachin Tendulkar. A decent player to start with !
I'm trying to understand all the nuances of this case when you go pass the racism and how it would impact Azeem Rafig when according to @Addick Addict he gave it out to his black coach big time. Not sure who printed that quote ? But everyone will be tarnished from this episode and it has already spread to most Counties. Did Rafig ever say to Gary Balance stop this "paki" calling ?
We are a multi racial society and Black, Brown, people of Colour, duel and *treble heritage and all hues make up our diverse society. Each individual should be called what they prefer.
* Emma Raducanu is so English, with her Romania and Chinese parentage and being born in Canada
Pandora's box had to be opened in Yorkshire cricket for various reasons:
Amazing to think that before 1992, the birth qualification rule was first modified to include those educated within the county, a dispensation that allowed Michael Vaughan to play; and was then abandoned altogether. Yorkshire's first overseas player that season was 19-year old Sachin Tendulkar. A decent player to start with !
I'm trying to understand all the nuances of this case when you go pass the racism and how it would impact Azeem Rafig when according to @Addick Addict he gave it out to his black coach big time. Not sure who printed that quote ? But everyone will be tarnished from this episode and it has already spread to most Counties. Did Rafig ever say to Gary Balance stop this "paki" calling ?
We are a multi racial society and Black, Brown, people of Colour, duel and *treble heritage and all hues make up our diverse society. Each individual should be called what they prefer.
* Emma Raducanu is so English, with her Romania and Chinese parentage and being born in Canada
As this article said, it's really not hard for a captain to crack down on unacceptable language, if he has the decency and guts to say something
Rob Key, for example, is understood to have come down hard and fast on a player – an overseas player, as it happens – who is believed to have said something racist at Kent. In doing so, he ensured such talk could never take root and ensured the culture of the dressing room remained inclusive.
There are going to be people who are going to get lumped into this who will have said something that was clearly wrong on an occasion and have apologised for it and others that just stood by when this was going on. They, in my opinion, should not be tarred with the same brush as those who have been consistently racist in both their words and actions. Those people have no right to be in the game.
I say this because everyone deserves a second chance. As Rafiq got himself when he was the captain of the England U19s.
John Abrahams is black and was the U19s coach. He came here with his father, Cec from South
Africa in the 1960s. Cec had made his name both as a fast-bowling
allrounder and a man of principle - he led the successful campaign against
non-white teams being organised into different racial groups which he regarded
as a surrender to apartheid. John played for and captained Lancashire before he became a coach.
Below is what Rafiq tweeted after he was dropped from the under-19 team to face Sri Lanka, when it is thought his habit of staying out after agreed curfews during matches became an issue:
"What a fxxxing farsee [sic]. John
Abrahams is a useless c***. ECB prove it again what incompetent people are
working for them." Next day, he tweeted again: "John Abrahams is a
useless w******r."
There are plenty of players who are dropped or
who do not get selected in the first place. They still know what is the right and wrong way to deal with that. Players are “selected against” for reasons other than race - because they don't go
to the right school or play for the right club. Or speak the right way. It
might not be a racial issue but it is still a prejudice and cricket is littered
with it.
There is an inherent lack of black coaches in not just cricket but football and
other sports too and Abrahams was one of the first to be put in charge of an
England team. Rafiq's own outburst did absolutely nothing to enhance Abrahams'
reputation as a coach and might even have served to add to any bias that
already existed and clearly still exists now. The irony is that the son of
someone who fought hard to fight massive scale racial prejudice was abused by
someone who would later become a victim himself of that very thing.
Rafiq says that these revelations aren't about personal vendettas. Unfortunately, there will be people who, by association and being in the dressing room at the time these comments were made, will be considered racists too by their own inaction. For that they should apologise. Their weakness and inability to stand up is desperately disappointing but when one considers the strong bond between the main culprits - the coach Gale, his brother in law, Bresnan plus the captain, Ballance and assistant coach, Pyrah as well as Moxon, the Director of Cricket - it would have potentially been career suicide for them to stand up for what was and remains right. Rafiq, himself, felt he couldn't do so and had to be seen to mix in with the group. He even returned to Yorkshire because, as he says, he had to put food on the table. This would be no different for others in that dressing room.
As I've mentioned previously on here, I am the son of a couple of Hungarian immigrants. Yes those racist Hungarians I keep reading about. Despicable - every single one of them such is alleged by some following the actions and deeds of their supporters and Government.
Despite the fact that I was born here that that did not change some people's perception that I was different. I can't honestly say that I was the victim of overt racism but that did not stop the mockery. You had to laugh along with it because your friends did too. That didn't mean that it was an enjoyable experience because it wasn't and in hindsight it did affect me because I was deemed to be "different". We are talking about the late 1960s/early 1970s and there really weren't many that were "different" in that respect. Would I hold all those people accountable now? Some yes but some of those that laughed along are still friends today. Rafiq has even stated Joe Root falls into that category.
Non acceptance of people of a different creed and culture was a disease at Yorkshire that came from the top. As I say, though, not every person mentioned in Rafiq's statement is a racist. And they shouldn't be treated as such. Let's clean up the game once and for all but not make people who are inherently good become part of a vendetta. We need to bring them with us and ban those proven to be racists.
It appears that Rafeeq's outburst above was not his only indiscretion:
The Times has seen an exchange of messages that appear to have been sent ten years ago between Rafiq and the former Leicestershire cricketer Ateeq Javid.
In a statement to The Times today, Rafiq said: “I was sent an image of this exchange from early 2011 today. I have gone back to check my account and it is me. I have absolutely no excuses.
“I am ashamed of this exchange and have now deleted it so as not to cause further offence. I was 19 at the time and I hope and believe I am a different person today. I am incredibly angry at myself and I apologise to the Jewish community and everyone who is rightly offended by this.”
As I said above, we need to be careful as to who we label a racist for one comment that is racist. There is now two bits of evidence where Rafiq has been prepared to post abusive messages - one aimed at a black coach that might have been construed as being racist and a series of comments that are racist in their nature. Rafiq would have been almost 20. Ollie Robinson was the same age and was punished accordingly.
None of this, of course, should not undermine the desire to rid cricket of its institutional racism/bias I refer to above. What it does do is to demonstrate how easy it is to point the finger at someone for a one off comment especially when that accusation hasn't been corroborated.
Pandora's box had to be opened in Yorkshire cricket for various reasons:
Amazing to think that before 1992, the birth qualification rule was first modified to include those educated within the county, a dispensation that allowed Michael Vaughan to play; and was then abandoned altogether. Yorkshire's first overseas player that season was 19-year old Sachin Tendulkar. A decent player to start with !
I'm trying to understand all the nuances of this case when you go pass the racism and how it would impact Azeem Rafig when according to @Addick Addict he gave it out to his black coach big time. Not sure who printed that quote ? But everyone will be tarnished from this episode and it has already spread to most Counties. Did Rafig ever say to Gary Balance stop this "paki" calling ?
We are a multi racial society and Black, Brown, people of Colour, duel and *treble heritage and all hues make up our diverse society. Each individual should be called what they prefer.
* Emma Raducanu is so English, with her Romania and Chinese parentage and being born in Canada
does it really need to be said?
If it's being said then you say "Paki" is a perjorative term and stop. At least there is no ambiguity. (If there ever was !)
As you say Kent addick, it really shouldn't need to be said. Gary Balance was ignorant and disrespectful to a colleague.
Robinson's punishment for historic comments set a precedent.
An awful lot of cricketers, either still playing, coaching or in the media have been revealed to either have said unacceptable things in the past or turned a blind eye when in positions of power...
Robinson's punishment for historic comments set a precedent.
An awful lot of cricketers, either still playing, coaching or in the media have been revealed to either have said unacceptable things in the past or turned a blind eye when in positions of power...
Indeed. Not a cricketer but one person very much in power said that it was absolutely ridiculous that Muslim women should go around resembling letterboxes and bank robbers. Don't recall him ever being punished.
Total mess of a situation all round for the game of cricket. The tweets above don’t help anybody in this whole thing - and now the tear through the fabric of the game will spread even further.
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
Total mess of a situation all round for the game of cricket. The tweets above don’t help anybody in this whole thing - and now the tear through the fabric of the game will spread even further.
I think they help getting to the truth, which I feel is important.
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
I have to say, it says mountains about your character if you can watch rafiq’s testimony and snort and say “yeah, but what’s in it for them, wHeReZ dA eBiDencE?!”.
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
I have to say, it says mountains about your character if you can watch rafiq’s testimony and snort and say “yeah, but what’s in it for them, wHeReZ dA eBiDencE?!”.
and my character mush .. I'll meet you anytime to discuss it .. I will not accept any insults ..ANYTIME from a keyboard wanker warrior like yourself .. ANYTIME
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
But Rafiq's own comments (while deplorable in their own right) don't at all undermine his point that there is widespread systemic racism in English cricket. Ten years later on, he's actually doing something to actively try and change that.
Vaughan is just denying he ever said anything racist and pretending this is nothing to do with him at all. It's a different story entirely.
You notice that in Rafiq's case he's fully admitted that 1. He did in fact say those things and 2. It was wrong to do so. That for me shows much better character than Vaughan has.
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
But Rafiq's own comments (while deplorable in their own right) don't at all undermine his point that there is widespread systemic racism in English cricket. Ten years later on, he's actually doing something to actively try and change that.
Vaughan is just denying he ever said anything racist and pretending this is nothing to do with him at all. It's a different story entirely.
You notice that in Rafiq's case he's fully admitted that 1. He did in fact say those things and 2. It was wrong to do so. That for me shows much better character than Vaughan has.
Yes he’s actively trying to change things. And get a nice £200,000 compo package. The man is a hypocrite.
Comments
"Some, such as Matthew Hoggard, have already reached out to apologise for their behaviour – Hoggard did so long before any report was planned, too, suggesting a genuine sorrow rather than any cynical attempt to save his skin"
Things can only improve from here.
would I or anyone be that offended by it? Possibly but I can see why it can be classed as racist. It's suggesting that Asians don't represent Yorkshire and we need to do something about it.
Vaughn is an arse, he's arrogant, he supports Wednesday (ultimate big heads) but did he really know what he said is out of order?
I originally thought that even though I'm not keen on the bloke he was misunderstood but more I think about the comment I really can't understand why someone would say it without it coming out as deorgatory.
I say this because everyone deserves a second chance. As Rafiq got himself when he was the captain of the England U19s.
John Abrahams is black and was the U19s coach. He came here with his father, Cec from South Africa in the 1960s. Cec had made his name both as a fast-bowling allrounder and a man of principle - he led the successful campaign against non-white teams being organised into different racial groups which he regarded as a surrender to apartheid. John played for and captained Lancashire before he became a coach.
Below is what Rafiq tweeted after he was dropped from the under-19 team to face Sri Lanka, when it is thought his habit of staying out after agreed curfews during matches became an issue:
"What a fxxxing farsee [sic]. John Abrahams is a useless c***. ECB prove it again what incompetent people are working for them." Next day, he tweeted again: "John Abrahams is a useless w******r."
There are plenty of players who are dropped or who do not get selected in the first place. They still know what is the right and wrong way to deal with that. Players are “selected against” for reasons other than race - because they don't go to the right school or play for the right club. Or speak the right way. It might not be a racial issue but it is still a prejudice and cricket is littered with it.
There is an inherent lack of black coaches in not just cricket but football and other sports too and Abrahams was one of the first to be put in charge of an England team. Rafiq's own outburst did absolutely nothing to enhance Abrahams' reputation as a coach and might even have served to add to any bias that already existed and clearly still exists now. The irony is that the son of someone who fought hard to fight massive scale racial prejudice was abused by someone who would later become a victim himself of that very thing.
Rafiq says that these revelations aren't about personal vendettas. Unfortunately, there will be people who, by association and being in the dressing room at the time these comments were made, will be considered racists too by their own inaction. For that they should apologise. Their weakness and inability to stand up is desperately disappointing but when one considers the strong bond between the main culprits - the coach Gale, his brother in law, Bresnan plus the captain, Ballance and assistant coach, Pyrah as well as Moxon, the Director of Cricket - it would have potentially been career suicide for them to stand up for what was and remains right. Rafiq, himself, felt he couldn't do so and had to be seen to mix in with the group. He even returned to Yorkshire because, as he says, he had to put food on the table. This would be no different for others in that dressing room.
As I've mentioned previously on here, I am the son of a couple of Hungarian immigrants. Yes those racist Hungarians I keep reading about. Despicable - every single one of them such is alleged by some following the actions and deeds of their supporters and Government.
Despite the fact that I was born here that that did not change some people's perception that I was different. I can't honestly say that I was the victim of overt racism but that did not stop the mockery. You had to laugh along with it because your friends did too. That didn't mean that it was an enjoyable experience because it wasn't and in hindsight it did affect me because I was deemed to be "different". We are talking about the late 1960s/early 1970s and there really weren't many that were "different" in that respect. Would I hold all those people accountable now? Some yes but some of those that laughed along are still friends today. Rafiq has even stated Joe Root falls into that category.
Non acceptance of people of a different creed and culture was a disease at Yorkshire that came from the top. As I say, though, not every person mentioned in Rafiq's statement is a racist. And they shouldn't be treated as such. Let's clean up the game once and for all but not make people who are inherently good become part of a vendetta. We need to bring them with us and ban those proven to be racists.
A lot of this could have been avoided had action been taken earlier and serious intent shown. We have to hope cricket moves forward from here.
The rest of the world, major corporations and government departments have moved on and are actively anti-racist - but up in Leeds YCCC are still behaving like it was 1974.
Like I say, you are going to get some cases dealt with inadequately, especially at smaller companies, but very hard to see how a ten year campaign of racism is going to go unchecked.
Why? Simple, look at what happened to the reputation of YCCC this last week.
No corporation is ever going to want to be in that position.
Amazing to think that before 1992, the birth qualification rule was first modified to include those educated within the county, a dispensation that allowed Michael Vaughan to play; and was then abandoned altogether. Yorkshire's first overseas player that season was 19-year old Sachin Tendulkar. A decent player to start with !
I'm trying to understand all the nuances of this case when you go pass the racism and how it would impact Azeem Rafig when according to @Addick Addict he gave it out to his black coach big time. Not sure who printed that quote ? But everyone will be tarnished from this episode and it has already spread to most Counties. Did Rafig ever say to Gary Balance stop this "paki" calling ?
We are a multi racial society and Black, Brown, people of Colour, duel and *treble heritage and all hues make up our diverse society. Each individual should be called what they prefer.
* Emma Raducanu is so English, with her Romania and Chinese parentage and being born in Canada
Rob Key, for example, is understood to have come down hard and fast on a player – an overseas player, as it happens – who is believed to have said something racist at Kent. In doing so, he ensured such talk could never take root and ensured the culture of the dressing room remained inclusive.
The Times has seen an exchange of messages that appear to have been sent ten years ago between Rafiq and the former Leicestershire cricketer Ateeq Javid.
In a statement to The Times today, Rafiq said: “I was sent an image of this exchange from early 2011 today. I have gone back to check my account and it is me. I have absolutely no excuses.
“I am ashamed of this exchange and have now deleted it so as not to cause further offence. I was 19 at the time and I hope and believe I am a different person today. I am incredibly angry at myself and I apologise to the Jewish community and everyone who is rightly offended by this.”
As I said above, we need to be careful as to who we label a racist for one comment that is racist. There is now two bits of evidence where Rafiq has been prepared to post abusive messages - one aimed at a black coach that might have been construed as being racist and a series of comments that are racist in their nature. Rafiq would have been almost 20. Ollie Robinson was the same age and was punished accordingly.
None of this, of course, should not undermine the desire to rid cricket of its institutional racism/bias I refer to above. What it does do is to demonstrate how easy it is to point the finger at someone for a one off comment especially when that accusation hasn't been corroborated.
If it's being said then you say "Paki" is a perjorative term and stop. At least there is no ambiguity. (If there ever was !)
As you say Kent addick, it really shouldn't need to be said. Gary Balance was ignorant and disrespectful to a colleague.
An awful lot of cricketers, either still playing, coaching or in the media have been revealed to either have said unacceptable things in the past or turned a blind eye when in positions of power...
the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
Vaughan is just denying he ever said anything racist and pretending this is nothing to do with him at all. It's a different story entirely.
You notice that in Rafiq's case he's fully admitted that 1. He did in fact say those things and 2. It was wrong to do so. That for me shows much better character than Vaughan has.