There are corroborating accounts of any number of racist incidents. Would you like to call Adil Rashid racist as well?
Once again there is too great a focus on the personalities involved.
You do realise Rafiq specifically asked for people not to be named. He did not publish his witness statements. The Parliamentary committee in the interests of transparency chose to do so.
In terms of any financial settlement he had already turned down over £100k to simply walk away.
There is however clearly a major challenge to the industry.
I believe over 1000 accounts have been registered on the now available helplines. I regret that appears to offend some sensibilities. That is your challenge not mine. It is entirely your choice to continue to look the other way.
In all honesty for me much of it resembles adolescent playground bullying carrying a throughly nasty racist trait where people living in the extended traditional bubble of the professional game have pursued long outdated values.
They have quite simply failed to grow up.
Many might argue they were simply products of their environment but that would suggest they had neither the eyes, the ears or the mental capacity to gauge the environment around them.
For that nobody has any excuse for unacceptable behaviour.
Beyond such personal responsibility come the organisational accountability. Had the issues been properly researched, investigated and addressed then the game itself would have been beyond challenge. It didn’t
It is rightly being held to account.
In terms of legal due diligence every corporation was required in the 1970s to record and operate an Equal Opportunities Programme covering all aspects of discrimination across gender and racial equality.
The entire Yorkshire Region of the bank I worked for at the time had not one women bank manager.
That 50yrs later it’s County Cricket Club is still locked into a comparable mindset comes as no surprise at all.
Thus is about the culture of the industry. The YCCC response and their media cronies attempting to silence one voice have completely missed the point.
It is not about Rafiq, Balance, Hoggard, Brooks, Hales, Vaughan or even Root.
It is about the culture of YCCC and it’s executive. It is about the culture of ECB and on a broader scale every single County Cricket Organisation.
English Cricket is elitist. It is public school and largely white middle class elitist. I hugely enjoyed Tunbridge Wells Cricket Week for over 20yrs yet you could not ignore the old boys clubs around half the boundary in their « Tented Elitist » gatherings.
Kent Cricket in recent months has signed Singh its first non white academy graduate after Bell Drummond in something like 20yrs. If you were Asian or Black you had more chance playing for Kent if you were born in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe or the Caribbean.
Have you driven round Lewisham, Catford or Gravesend? Lewisham has I believe the 3rd largest Jamaican heritage community in the country.
I will leave others far more au fait with Kent’s current Development pathway than I to comment why we have had the need to bring in Podmore, Milnes, Leaning, Logan, Stewart, Klaassen, Qadri, Compton, Muyeye, Quinn, Gilchrist etc. in recent years.
Kent is the 2nd most participative cricketing county in the game.
It speaks to the development investment and the financial divisions in the game and that today rests entirely with the ECB who so pleased with themselves awarded themselves bonuses of £2mn.
I still enjoy the game but have long since held my nose over any aspect of equality, diversity and inclusion.
Perhaps I too have spent too long looking the other way.
The picture below was taken in Adelaide last week. Three friends on a night out who have had different cricketing journeys to date.
Seb went to a state school that did play cricket and also at Bexley CC from the age of nine up until two seasons ago when he moved to Sidcup - he was in and around the Kent set up from the age of 11 through to last season when 18. Jas went to a state school that did not offer cricket and was in the same age group side at Bexley but never actually made the Kent squad 'til he was 16. Nathan was a cricketing prodigy. He did go to a private school and made headlines at the age of 12 for breaking Alastair Cook's record for the number of runs scored as a schoolboy and was at Essex 'til he was 17.
Of the three, Jas is the only one so far to secure a pro contract. But, ironically, he was the one that was, potentially, most likely to be missed by his county. He trialled a number of times to get into the Kent age group squads without success. I'm certainly not saying that there was conscious bias but for the first four years that Seb was at Kent the squad did not contain a single non white boy. As I say, Jas didn't go to a private school but was fortunate that he remained at a club that allowed him to develop as a player and one that could offer him a standard of cricket that would get him noticed. Had he been at a small regional club there is every chance that he might not have happened. Equally, had he been playing in an Asian league he would almost certainly have fallen under the radar.
As Grapevine mentions above Bell-Drummond is the only non white player to come through the Kent development system in the last 20years. But he went to Millfield and yes that would have been as a result of a scholarship in recognition of his talent but the fact remains that the school would have afforded him the best facilities and highest level of coaching available. Jas didn't have that but what he did have was a Dad who played State cricket in India and who was a fast bowler too. Without him and Bexley, Kent would still be looking for the next non homegrown white player.
The good news is that there are quite a few young players of Asian ethnicity in the younger Kent age groups. I wouldn't know how many are privately educated but I would go so far as to say that most of them are. I am not aware of any Black youngsters. There was a lad who was selected in last year's U18 squad (who did go to a big private school) but he only played one game because he was attached to Saracens and rugby appears to be his calling.
Here's hoping that all the counties find a way of integrating all aspiring cricketers whatever their background. It isn't just a question of affording them the opportunity to play cricket because tens of thousands do especially (and ironically) more of them are in places like Yorkshire. They have to be given the chance to progress within the system. And that is the problem.
Thanks AA very helpful. I did glance down the Kent Schools Cricket web site and listed under the competitions there are all the usual academies or grammar schools with the occasional Beths etc.
I assume Tonbridge, Sevenoaks etc all belong to a Public schools competition.
I do accept there is the additional challenge of Lewisham being under the umbrella of London Schools but hopefully there will be a way forward with Bell Drummond now being President of the LSCA.
I was aware DBD went to Millfield but thought he had also been at St Dunstans.
I full accept many in the black community have other interests but simply refuse to accept there is no interest in cricket. It is a matter of opportunity and facilities and there is really no excuse for thé funding by the professional game for proper grass roots infrastructure.
I am mindful many counties are dependant on the financial support of the ECB but it should not be beyond their wit to structure such support to encompass viable development pathways across its equality, diversity and inclusivity programme.
I have to say, it says mountains about your character if you can watch rafiq’s testimony and snort and say “yeah, but what’s in it for them, wHeReZ dA eBiDencE?!”.
and my character mush .. I'll meet you anytime to discuss it .. I will not accept any insults ..ANYTIME from a keyboard wanker warrior like yourself .. ANYTIME
If you didn’t want to come across as a bully, this really isn’t the comment to make. If you can’t back up your argument without threatening physical violence, then maybe you don’t have much of an argument at all.
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
England spinner adil Rashid is one. You’ve just shown why exactly people won’t come forward “let’s have a forensic check of their social media history”.
You haven’t even answered the question, what more proof do you want, above corroborating witnesses?
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
England spinner adil Rashid is one. You’ve just shown why exactly people won’t come forward “let’s have a forensic check of their social media history”.
You haven’t even answered the question, what more proof do you want, above corroborating witnesses?
Rashid did hear it. As did another but the fourth player, Ajmal Shahzad didn't. That doesn't mean it wasn't said but he didn't hear it. Or he heard it but didn't think of it being a racist comment at the time so he didn't commit it to memory.
And yet Shahzad's experiences are in stark contrast to those of Rafiq's:
'I've never experienced racism myself in cricket. You never want to hear the things that Azeem said he experienced. You wouldn't wish them on anyone
'But I can only go off my own experiences and I had a good time at Yorkshire and the people were good to me.
'It was such a good environment that I actually picked up the phone to (director of cricket) Martyn Moxon and (coach) Andrew Gale in December and asked if I could come and get involved in their practices and they welcomed me with open arms.'
This really is the complete opposite to Rafiq's experiences. Could part of the issue be that Rafiq wasn't an easy character to deal with? As a 19 year old he clearly had strong opinions on the world and specifically coaches and other players (Abrahams and the unnamed Derbyshire player). Coaches will react in different ways to that and being racist is certainly not the right way to go.
Again, it is clear that YCCC is a racist institution. Unfortunately, though, as I've said previously, there are people being dragged into this who are no more guilty than Rafiq himself. In fact, some are mentioned in the report because they stood around and did nothing when these things were going on. They should have, of course, but that would single themselves out. So they didn't. And neither did Rafiq himself. For the very same reasons.
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
England spinner adil Rashid is one. You’ve just shown why exactly people won’t come forward “let’s have a forensic check of their social media history”.
You haven’t even answered the question, what more proof do you want, above corroborating witnesses?
If Rashid puts his hand on the Koran (I assume his chosen religion is Islam) and swears he saw and heard Vaughan make racist remarks then I will accept his word .. otherwise, in my eyes he will just be another jumper on the band wagon. I am sure that many people, cricketers, shopkeepers, accountants, bus drivers, indeed all trades and none of Asian extraction regularly make disparaging and racist comments about white and black people. The issue is that if these comments are made in (e.g.) Urdu, very few English people would be able to understand such insults
Wonder what dear old Dicky Bird makes of this unholy mess ?
What Dickie from Barnsley? I really don't think we want to know.
Let's face it many from Yorkshire give the narrative they despise anyone not from Yorkshire, so heaven knows what it's like if not even English.
(I have been to Yorkshire following CAFC on very many occasions, so I have formed an impression).
oh so chants like 'dirty northern bastards', 'fucking northern monkeys' and 'this place is a shithole, I want to go home' are just banter whereas Yorkies making similar comments are all racists and insular bigots. If you're basing your comments on the experience of a few flying visits to a few towns and cities with a pub stop on the way, you should really get out more, see more of real life
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
England spinner adil Rashid is one. You’ve just shown why exactly people won’t come forward “let’s have a forensic check of their social media history”.
You haven’t even answered the question, what more proof do you want, above corroborating witnesses?
If Rashid puts his hand on the Koran (I assume his chosen religion is Islam) and swears he saw and heard Vaughan make racist remarks then I will accept his word .. otherwise, in my eyes he will just be another jumper on the band wagon. I am sure that many people, cricketers, shopkeepers, accountants, bus drivers, indeed all trades and none of Asian extraction regularly make disparaging and racist comments about white and black people. The issue is that if these comments are made in (e.g.) Urdu, very few English people would be able to understand such insults
This is precisely why institutional racism is so difficult to get rid of. Because you're requiring a victim of racism to swear on a sacred book before you will believe he's a victim of racism.
How about thinking about it from the proper end of the telescope. How about considering that someone has complained that something bad has happened, repeatedly, over a number of years; has been witnessed by a number of other people; some of the perpetrators have admitted their culpability and apologised for it; and the victim has, at great personal, emotional cost, spoken at length to a public enquiry, been questioned by MPs and interviewed on television and radio? And how about, with all this in mind, taking a starting point that there's no harm in actually believing them.
I bet that's a better way to a solution, than to doubt the victim so that it carries on.
Yeah he said some stupid, racist shit in conversation with a friend 10 years ago, and should be rightly castigated, but the greater evil here is surely the culture of institutional, bullying racism inflicted directly onto its targets. Don't lose the story.
Leuth has this spot on. This will now get lost by the majority.
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
England spinner adil Rashid is one. You’ve just shown why exactly people won’t come forward “let’s have a forensic check of their social media history”.
You haven’t even answered the question, what more proof do you want, above corroborating witnesses?
If Rashid puts his hand on the Koran (I assume his chosen religion is Islam) and swears he saw and heard Vaughan make racist remarks then I will accept his word .. otherwise, in my eyes he will just be another jumper on the band wagon. I am sure that many people, cricketers, shopkeepers, accountants, bus drivers, indeed all trades and none of Asian extraction regularly make disparaging and racist comments about white and black people. The issue is that if these comments are made in (e.g.) Urdu, very few English people would be able to understand such insults
You have zero proof to back this up. You seem to have a very dim view of people of south Asian heritage - they’re both liars making stuff up about racism and now they’re racist themselves - you have zero proof of either of these.
What makes you think people are jumping on a bandwagon and making stuff up? Is it because you would do the same thing in their position? Or is it because you have a terrible view on people from south Asian backgrounds?
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
England spinner adil Rashid is one. You’ve just shown why exactly people won’t come forward “let’s have a forensic check of their social media history”.
You haven’t even answered the question, what more proof do you want, above corroborating witnesses?
If Rashid puts his hand on the Koran (I assume his chosen religion is Islam) and swears he saw and heard Vaughan make racist remarks then I will accept his word .. otherwise, in my eyes he will just be another jumper on the band wagon. I am sure that many people, cricketers, shopkeepers, accountants, bus drivers, indeed all trades and none of Asian extraction regularly make disparaging and racist comments about white and black people. The issue is that if these comments are made in (e.g.) Urdu, very few English people would be able to understand such insults
You have zero proof to back this up. You seem to have a very dim view of people of south Asian heritage - they’re both liars making stuff up about racism and now they’re racist themselves - you have zero proof of either of these.
What makes you think people are jumping on a bandwagon and making stuff up? Is it because you would do the same thing in their position? Or is it because you have a terrible view on people from south Asian backgrounds?
To say having zero proof to back this up is completely correct. Apart from rafiq making disparaging comments about white people, Jews and people of African heritage!
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
England spinner adil Rashid is one. You’ve just shown why exactly people won’t come forward “let’s have a forensic check of their social media history”.
You haven’t even answered the question, what more proof do you want, above corroborating witnesses?
If Rashid puts his hand on the Koran (I assume his chosen religion is Islam) and swears he saw and heard Vaughan make racist remarks then I will accept his word .. otherwise, in my eyes he will just be another jumper on the band wagon. I am sure that many people, cricketers, shopkeepers, accountants, bus drivers, indeed all trades and none of Asian extraction regularly make disparaging and racist comments about white and black people. The issue is that if these comments are made in (e.g.) Urdu, very few English people would be able to understand such insults
You have zero proof to back this up. You seem to have a very dim view of people of south Asian heritage - they’re both liars making stuff up about racism and now they’re racist themselves - you have zero proof of either of these.
What makes you think people are jumping on a bandwagon and making stuff up? Is it because you would do the same thing in their position? Or is it because you have a terrible view on people from south Asian backgrounds?
To say having zero proof to back this up is completely correct. Apart from rafiq making disparaging comments about white people, Jews and people of African heritage!
So a 19 year old rafiq represents the whole south asian community, is that correct?
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
England spinner adil Rashid is one. You’ve just shown why exactly people won’t come forward “let’s have a forensic check of their social media history”.
You haven’t even answered the question, what more proof do you want, above corroborating witnesses?
If Rashid puts his hand on the Koran (I assume his chosen religion is Islam) and swears he saw and heard Vaughan make racist remarks then I will accept his word .. otherwise, in my eyes he will just be another jumper on the band wagon. I am sure that many people, cricketers, shopkeepers, accountants, bus drivers, indeed all trades and none of Asian extraction regularly make disparaging and racist comments about white and black people. The issue is that if these comments are made in (e.g.) Urdu, very few English people would be able to understand such insults
You have zero proof to back this up. You seem to have a very dim view of people of south Asian heritage - they’re both liars making stuff up about racism and now they’re racist themselves - you have zero proof of either of these.
What makes you think people are jumping on a bandwagon and making stuff up? Is it because you would do the same thing in their position? Or is it because you have a terrible view on people from south Asian backgrounds?
To say having zero proof to back this up is completely correct. Apart from rafiq making disparaging comments about white people, Jews and people of African heritage!
So a 19 year old rafiq represents the whole south asian community, is that correct?
Why is his age relevant? He obviously doesn’t represent the whole south Asian community (zzzzz) but he represents himself & he himself is guilty of racist comments.
Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.
well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far, just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems
There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?
Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them.
who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history.. and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete .. the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved against him, will almost certainly never work for a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on,
England spinner adil Rashid is one. You’ve just shown why exactly people won’t come forward “let’s have a forensic check of their social media history”.
You haven’t even answered the question, what more proof do you want, above corroborating witnesses?
If Rashid puts his hand on the Koran (I assume his chosen religion is Islam) and swears he saw and heard Vaughan make racist remarks then I will accept his word .. otherwise, in my eyes he will just be another jumper on the band wagon. I am sure that many people, cricketers, shopkeepers, accountants, bus drivers, indeed all trades and none of Asian extraction regularly make disparaging and racist comments about white and black people. The issue is that if these comments are made in (e.g.) Urdu, very few English people would be able to understand such insults
You have zero proof to back this up. You seem to have a very dim view of people of south Asian heritage - they’re both liars making stuff up about racism and now they’re racist themselves - you have zero proof of either of these.
What makes you think people are jumping on a bandwagon and making stuff up? Is it because you would do the same thing in their position? Or is it because you have a terrible view on people from south Asian backgrounds?
To say having zero proof to back this up is completely correct. Apart from rafiq making disparaging comments about white people, Jews and people of African heritage!
So a 19 year old rafiq represents the whole south asian community, is that correct?
Why is his age relevant? He obviously doesn’t represent the whole south Asian community (zzzzz) but he represents himself & he himself is guilty of racist comments.
His age is relevant because he was 19. The comments for which he's issued an apology - is that not good enough? Should he be cancelled and never work again for it? I think you're just jumping on a bandwagon here.
I was talking in relevance to the south asian community, that Lincs has said "many" of whom have made racist comments in their own language - there's zero proof of this. A 19 year old's social media comments are not, as you accept, relevant to the whole south asian community.
Probably get shot down but our society is going crazy. We are all racist just different extremes.We have an Indian women cleans the units where we work. She was ranting to me about all the lazy Romanians that have moved in to her area and are lazy dirty and smell.why can’t they get jobs sure some are HGV drivers etc.they are bringing our community down. Now where we heard that before. But for some reason it’s worse when a white person says it. We got comedian’s now who can only take Micky out there selfs and singers frightened to sing there’s songs. Because some words might upset some people.we seem more worried about what we say than what we do.
We got kids killing each other over post codes we got kids spiking girls drinks and now injecting them to rape them. We got people blowing people up because of there believes.
And we are more worried about a white man going to a fancy dress party painted to look like a rapper.
Thanks AA very helpful. I did glance down the Kent Schools Cricket web site and listed under the competitions there are all the usual academies or grammar schools with the occasional Beths etc.
I assume Tonbridge, Sevenoaks etc all belong to a Public schools competition.
I do accept there is the additional challenge of Lewisham being under the umbrella of London Schools but hopefully there will be a way forward with Bell Drummond now being President of the LSCA.
I was aware DBD went to Millfield but thought he had also been at St Dunstans.
I full accept many in the black community have other interests but simply refuse to accept there is no interest in cricket. It is a matter of opportunity and facilities and there is really no excuse for thé funding by the professional game for proper grass roots infrastructure.
I am mindful many counties are dependant on the financial support of the ECB but it should not be beyond their wit to structure such support to encompass viable development pathways across its equality, diversity and inclusivity programme.
To put the example of DBD in perspective he was born into a first generation Caribbean cricketing family, his father Percy Drummond was chairman of catford wanderers for a long period...he was fated to play cricket rather than anything else ..so not really someone who was a product of a system
We mentioned previously the lack of youngsters that are playing cricket from an Afro-Caribbean background. Anyone who is watching BT's South Of The River cannot fail to recognise how influenced young athletes in South London are being inspired by those who have made it big in football so have opted to take that journey instead - the cages they play in are accessible, it's free with minimal equipment outlay and it doesn't take any organising.
The other aspect is the lack of inspiration coming from the West Indies. Anyone of a certain age could reel off dozens of icons of the game from past eras. Who do they have now? Their red and white ball sides are totally different with just Chase and Holder in the current Test team that played in the WC - and Holder wasn't even in the WC original squad. In the current game SL have set them 348 to win. And they at one point slipped to 18-6.
Why would you want to be a Kraigg Braithwaite or Jermaine Blackwood when you could be the next Jadon Sancho, Joe Gomez, Tammy Abraham or Ademola Lookman? These are all people that the young lads can relate to as they, invariably, came from the very same estates, used the same facilities and played for the same youth teams.
We mentioned previously the lack of youngsters that are playing cricket from an Afro-Caribbean background. Anyone who is watching BT's South Of The River cannot fail to recognise how influenced young athletes in South London are being inspired by those who have made it big in football so have opted to take that journey instead - the cages they play in are accessible, it's free with minimal equipment outlay and it doesn't take any organising.
The other aspect is the lack of inspiration coming from the West Indies. Anyone of a certain age could reel off dozens of icons of the game from past eras. Who do they have now? Their red and white ball sides are totally different with just Chase and Holder in the current Test team that played in the WC - and Holder wasn't even in the WC original squad. In the current game SL have set them 348 to win. And they at one point slipped to 18-6.
Why would you want to be a Kraigg Braithwaite or Jermaine Blackwood when you could be the next Jadon Sancho, Joe Gomez, Tammy Abraham or Ademola Lookman? These are all people that the young lads can relate to as they, invariably, came from the very same estates, used the same facilities and played for the same youth teams.
Director of cricket Martyn Moxon, coach Andrew Gale and all members of the coaching staff are among 16 people to have left Yorkshire amid the racism scandal.
Darren Gough has been appointed as Yorkshire's interim managing director of cricket until the end of the 2022 season. It also means that he's stepped down from Talksport
Darren Gough has been appointed as Yorkshire's interim managing director of cricket until the end of the 2022 season. It also means that he's stepped down from Talksport
Just saw this stat on BBC from Andy Zaltzman: Alex Carey is making his Test debut behind the stumps for Australia. The last seven times an Australia wicketkeeper has made his debut in an Ashes Test, going back to the 1950s, England have won the series.
Just saw this stat on BBC from Andy Zaltzman: Alex Carey is making his Test debut behind the stumps for Australia. The last seven times an Australia wicketkeeper has made his debut in an Ashes Test, going back to the 1950s, England have won the series.
All booked in for 18 days in Barbados in March. The 5 day season ticket for the test was £108! Bargain considering i'm paying £90 for a single day vs South Africa in September!
Comments
Seb went to a state school that did play cricket and also at Bexley CC from the age of nine up until two seasons ago when he moved to Sidcup - he was in and around the Kent set up from the age of 11 through to last season when 18. Jas went to a state school that did not offer cricket and was in the same age group side at Bexley but never actually made the Kent squad 'til he was 16. Nathan was a cricketing prodigy. He did go to a private school and made headlines at the age of 12 for breaking Alastair Cook's record for the number of runs scored as a schoolboy and was at Essex 'til he was 17.
Of the three, Jas is the only one so far to secure a pro contract. But, ironically, he was the one that was, potentially, most likely to be missed by his county. He trialled a number of times to get into the Kent age group squads without success. I'm certainly not saying that there was conscious bias but for the first four years that Seb was at Kent the squad did not contain a single non white boy. As I say, Jas didn't go to a private school but was fortunate that he remained at a club that allowed him to develop as a player and one that could offer him a standard of cricket that would get him noticed. Had he been at a small regional club there is every chance that he might not have happened. Equally, had he been playing in an Asian league he would almost certainly have fallen under the radar.
As Grapevine mentions above Bell-Drummond is the only non white player to come through the Kent development system in the last 20years. But he went to Millfield and yes that would have been as a result of a scholarship in recognition of his talent but the fact remains that the school would have afforded him the best facilities and highest level of coaching available. Jas didn't have that but what he did have was a Dad who played State cricket in India and who was a fast bowler too. Without him and Bexley, Kent would still be looking for the next non homegrown white player.
The good news is that there are quite a few young players of Asian ethnicity in the younger Kent age groups. I wouldn't know how many are privately educated but I would go so far as to say that most of them are. I am not aware of any Black youngsters. There was a lad who was selected in last year's U18 squad (who did go to a big private school) but he only played one game because he was attached to Saracens and rugby appears to be his calling.
Here's hoping that all the counties find a way of integrating all aspiring cricketers whatever their background. It isn't just a question of affording them the opportunity to play cricket because tens of thousands do especially (and ironically) more of them are in places like Yorkshire. They have to be given the chance to progress within the system. And that is the problem.
I assume Tonbridge, Sevenoaks etc all belong to a Public schools competition.
I do accept there is the additional challenge of Lewisham being under the umbrella of London Schools but hopefully there will be a way forward with Bell Drummond now being President of the LSCA.
I was aware DBD went to Millfield but thought he had also been at St Dunstans.
I full accept many in the black community have other interests but simply refuse to accept there is no interest in cricket. It is a matter of opportunity and facilities and there is really no excuse for thé funding by the professional game for proper grass roots infrastructure.
I am mindful many counties are dependant on the financial support of the ECB but it should not be beyond their wit to structure such support to encompass viable development pathways across its equality, diversity and inclusivity programme.
And yet Shahzad's experiences are in stark contrast to those of Rafiq's:
'I've never experienced racism myself in cricket. You never want to hear the things that Azeem said he experienced. You wouldn't wish them on anyone
'But I can only go off my own experiences and I had a good time at Yorkshire and the people were good to me.
'It was such a good environment that I actually picked up the phone to (director of cricket) Martyn Moxon and (coach) Andrew Gale in December and asked if I could come and get involved in their practices and they welcomed me with open arms.'
This really is the complete opposite to Rafiq's experiences. Could part of the issue be that Rafiq wasn't an easy character to deal with? As a 19 year old he clearly had strong opinions on the world and specifically coaches and other players (Abrahams and the unnamed Derbyshire player). Coaches will react in different ways to that and being racist is certainly not the right way to go.
Again, it is clear that YCCC is a racist institution. Unfortunately, though, as I've said previously, there are people being dragged into this who are no more guilty than Rafiq himself. In fact, some are mentioned in the report because they stood around and did nothing when these things were going on. They should have, of course, but that would single themselves out. So they didn't. And neither did Rafiq himself. For the very same reasons.
I am sure that many people, cricketers, shopkeepers, accountants, bus drivers, indeed all trades and none of Asian extraction regularly make disparaging and racist comments about white and black people. The issue is that if these comments are made in (e.g.) Urdu, very few English people would be able to understand such insults
If you're basing your comments on the experience of a few flying visits to a few towns and cities with a pub stop on the way, you should really get out more, see more of real life
How about thinking about it from the proper end of the telescope. How about considering that someone has complained that something bad has happened, repeatedly, over a number of years; has been witnessed by a number of other people; some of the perpetrators have admitted their culpability and apologised for it; and the victim has, at great personal, emotional cost, spoken at length to a public enquiry, been questioned by MPs and interviewed on television and radio? And how about, with all this in mind, taking a starting point that there's no harm in actually believing them.
I bet that's a better way to a solution, than to doubt the victim so that it carries on.
I was talking in relevance to the south asian community, that Lincs has said "many" of whom have made racist comments in their own language - there's zero proof of this. A 19 year old's social media comments are not, as you accept, relevant to the whole south asian community.
But it weakens your argument as to how much it affected you
The other aspect is the lack of inspiration coming from the West Indies. Anyone of a certain age could reel off dozens of icons of the game from past eras. Who do they have now? Their red and white ball sides are totally different with just Chase and Holder in the current Test team that played in the WC - and Holder wasn't even in the WC original squad. In the current game SL have set them 348 to win. And they at one point slipped to 18-6.
Why would you want to be a Kraigg Braithwaite or Jermaine Blackwood when you could be the next Jadon Sancho, Joe Gomez, Tammy Abraham or Ademola Lookman? These are all people that the young lads can relate to as they, invariably, came from the very same estates, used the same facilities and played for the same youth teams.
Darren Gough has been appointed as Yorkshire's interim managing director of cricket until the end of the 2022 season. It also means that he's stepped down from Talksport