ForeverAddickted, I'm wondering if there is any tactical switch you would say is not right. I think I'm right in saying you approve of Pratley CM at CH, Matthews RB at LB, Maatsen LB at RM, Gilbey CM at LM, JFC LM at RM, Pearce LCH in middle of 3, Pratley RCH or middle at LCH. I think this were about all of the players out of position at some point yesterday, so only 7.
If Schwarz signs and is on the wing is that ok? What about midfield would that be ok? How about anywhere in the defence? Is there any position that Bowyer could play someone out of position that you would disagree with?
I'm genuinely interested, not on a wind up.
If Schwartz signs and drifts out to the wing at times is that any different to Lyle Taylor?
If he's stuck out there with no pace though then yeah I'd definitely question that
Pratley as Centre-Back: Certainly not as there was a big debate before the season started with plenty posting he was too slow for Midfield now and should be considered a CB Matthews at Left-Back: Again no issue because he's played there plenty of times before now Maatsen at Right-Mid: I would raise an eyebrow if that happened again and would keep a close eye on his performance Gilbey at Left-Mid: Difficult one as he is struggling to fit in anywhere at the moment Forster-Caskey at Right-Mid: Wouldnt have issue with him being left footed provided he's cutting in Pearce at Left Centre-Back: Again no issue as he's left footed so if he's playing as part of a back three he should be either in the middle or on the left of the pairing
ForeverAddickted, I'm wondering if there is any tactical switch you would say is not right. I think I'm right in saying you approve of Pratley CM at CH, Matthews RB at LB, Maatsen LB at RM, Gilbey CM at LM, JFC LM at RM, Pearce LCH in middle of 3, Pratley RCH or middle at LCH. I think this were about all of the players out of position at some point yesterday, so only 7.
If Schwarz signs and is on the wing is that ok? What about midfield would that be ok? How about anywhere in the defence? Is there any position that Bowyer could play someone out of position that you would disagree with?
A loss against Accrington and the heat is seriously on Bowyer
Bowyer is on a lose-lose situation with a few people on here for Friday.
Lose and it’ll be ranting and get rid. Draw and it’ll probably be slightly similar.
Win and it’ll be “well we should be beating teams like Accrington”,
So are you saying Charlton shouldn't be beating teams like Accrington, who struggled to get 1,000 supporters in L2 recently?
Blimey some think we should be established in the Premier League and others think we should think ourselves fortunate if we can beat Accrington (who are they) Stanley.
You're right we should be beating teams like Accrington - But at the same time they're in their position on merit so they deserve to be respected
The fact they've previously struggled to get 1,000 supporters should have nothing to do with it
I'd be pretty pissed if I was reading on Social Media about our Championship / Premier League opponents in the future bemoaning they should be beating us, simply because we were once in League One with only 10,000 fans
Am sure a number of our more delicate fanbase would be too
You really need to stop digging this hole, it's beyond admirable now, your actually making your self sound like a twat.
@Covered End can be a knob, sometimes like most of us, but how can you argue that?
If Bowyer played Amos up front on Friday you would probably defend that under the "if it's good enough for Man City in 2005 its good enough for us now".
So what you think we only have to turn up because we're Charlton and they're Accrington because of the size of the fanbase?
Cmon dont be a prick like that!! - Certainly dont need to start using insulting language against me thats for sure!!
I didn't say you were a twat, I said you are starting to sound like one. I know for a fact you aren't one but your really clutching at straws now.
Your really defending the indefensible.
Using one youth game to suggest Maatsen is comfortable as a right midfielder?
OK say your theory that it was a good idea for Matthews to play at LB to nullify Wilkes, who I admit is one of the better players in this divison, is sound (despite no other manager in the world regularly doing it) which high quality inverted winger did we come across in the last game?
I think Bowyer's time is up, most people don't agree with me but almost to a man (and woman) they are questioning his selections and tactics. Your the only person who has even tried to defend it. And your examples are getting more and more desperate to justify it.
Do you, in both honesty and hindsight, think it was a good idea to play Matthews at left back and Maatsen on the right of midfield?
You've completely just changed the whole argument from the one we were discussing
Nice of you to completely skirt that one
As for using a Youth Game to suggest Maatsen is comfortable (I firstly didnt use that word)... I was simply using it to show he's played there before
Upon completion of the game I felt Maatsen was no stronger / weaker at Left-Back (second half) to when he was Right-Midfield, same with Matthews when he was Left-Back and then Right-Back in the second
At the start of the game I was certainly surprised as presumed Maatsen would be playing ahead of Matthews (similar to Plymouth)
Now then... As for the genuine comment that you replied to... Do you think we only need to turn up to beat Accrington because of their fanbase?
Because of the fan base directly, no, because the fact the chairman has to publish the bar takings to explain how he pays the for the kit to be washed probably.
All other things being equal, despite the last 7 years, we are as close to Man United as a club than we are to Accrington Stanley.
As with 90% of games at this level, with this squad, set up right, set up positive, we should win 7 or 8 times out of ten.
Don't you agree?
Of course... I'm happy to agree with that statement
BUT and I said this last week (maybe a few weeks ago), we're not going to win every game are we, thats impossible
Even to match the points tally from 2018/19 we're allowed to lose and draw a maximum of five games... So its likely we'll drop points in ten games minimum
Which ten do you think that'll be?
The next ten if we set up like we have in the last ten.
Obviously we don't need to win them all but we need to try and win them all.
Winning every game, if not impossible, is highly unlikely but trying to win every game should be the bare minimum at this level.
I'll ask a question now.
Do you, honestly, think Bowyer has sent out the team, or even close to it, most likely to win (not not loose) the last 3 or 4 games?
Sooooo....
Hull: No... The way we started it did feel like we were going for a draw or smash and grab Plymouth: Yes... I thought we started well and stupid individual errors gave our attack too much to do Swindon: Yes... the line up was good but we didnt handle the pressure well enough
I'll skip Wimbledon
Shrewsbury: Yes... Again the line up was good, but we dont like being put under pressure
See my issue isnt that I dont like being critical of Bowyer - Its just I dont like to use the advantage of having hindsight... I know there will be fans like yourself who'll have a good understanding and will be able to predict what might happen from the team select. But every week from 2pm until 3pm on the Match Thread you'll have enough people on there predicting defeat from every line up that Bowyer selects, when it doesnt necessarily happen... e.g. the biggest one being when Pratley / Watson are selected in Midfield together
See I am a big fan of the Pratley/Watson double pivot (despite the fact Bowyer playes them the wrong way round) on the condition I get 2 of Maddison, Morgan, Williams or Shinnie there as well.
And that for me is the second biggest problem (after out of position players) what % of games have 2 of those 4 been on the pitch at the same time, let alone 3. That's what I mean by trying to win games as not trying to loose them.
You see finding someone to replace Shinnie has been the biggest issue of late... More so than Doughty in midfield
It might have been Fleetwood but felt he truly dictated the midfield and dont think we've got anyone else who can do that... It annoys the hell out of me as really hoped a Shinnie / Gilbey double act on either flank of the diamond could do that but the latter isnt producing now - Whether its because we dont have a quick enough player to make the run beyond the defence (his assist for Doughty @ Crewe) I really dont know
ForeverAddickted, I'm wondering if there is any tactical switch you would say is not right. I think I'm right in saying you approve of Pratley CM at CH, Matthews RB at LB, Maatsen LB at RM, Gilbey CM at LM, JFC LM at RM, Pearce LCH in middle of 3, Pratley RCH or middle at LCH. I think this were about all of the players out of position at some point yesterday, so only 7.
If Schwarz signs and is on the wing is that ok? What about midfield would that be ok? How about anywhere in the defence? Is there any position that Bowyer could play someone out of position that you would disagree with?
I'm genuinely interested, not on a wind up.
You forgot Morgan CM at LM.
Yeah I found that one odd yesterday... Thought he was largely ineffective out there, almost a bit like when we played Shelvey out on the right
Wasnt surprised in the slightest when his number was called
Forever there's no way it was hindsight with this one. I don't think it was against Plymouth either but the site (and elsewhere) was pretty unified in it's damning of the team selection. I know there will always be moaning about something whenever a line up is announced but it was so obvious that it wouldn't work.
One area where I'll happily berate Bowyer was starting Aneke against Plymouth, didnt think it was worth risking him getting booked with yesterdays game, thought Bogle would be more than adequate enough against Plymouth
Of course there was always the risk (as would have brought Aneke off the bench) but I thought we were playing dice with the devil starting him
A loss against Accrington and the heat is seriously on Bowyer
Bowyer is on a lose-lose situation with a few people on here for Friday.
Lose and it’ll be ranting and get rid. Draw and it’ll probably be slightly similar.
Win and it’ll be “well we should be beating teams like Accrington”,
So are you saying Charlton shouldn't be beating teams like Accrington, who struggled to get 1,000 supporters in L2 recently?
Blimey some think we should be established in the Premier League and others think we should think ourselves fortunate if we can beat Accrington (who are they) Stanley.
You're right we should be beating teams like Accrington - But at the same time they're in their position on merit so they deserve to be respected
The fact they've previously struggled to get 1,000 supporters should have nothing to do with it
I'd be pretty pissed if I was reading on Social Media about our Championship / Premier League opponents in the future bemoaning they should be beating us, simply because we were once in League One with only 10,000 fans
Am sure a number of our more delicate fanbase would be too
You really need to stop digging this hole, it's beyond admirable now, your actually making your self sound like a twat.
@Covered End can be a knob, sometimes like most of us, but how can you argue that?
If Bowyer played Amos up front on Friday you would probably defend that under the "if it's good enough for Man City in 2005 its good enough for us now".
So what you think we only have to turn up because we're Charlton and they're Accrington because of the size of the fanbase?
Cmon dont be a prick like that!! - Certainly dont need to start using insulting language against me thats for sure!!
I didn't say you were a twat, I said you are starting to sound like one. I know for a fact you aren't one but your really clutching at straws now.
Your really defending the indefensible.
Using one youth game to suggest Maatsen is comfortable as a right midfielder?
OK say your theory that it was a good idea for Matthews to play at LB to nullify Wilkes, who I admit is one of the better players in this divison, is sound (despite no other manager in the world regularly doing it) which high quality inverted winger did we come across in the last game?
I think Bowyer's time is up, most people don't agree with me but almost to a man (and woman) they are questioning his selections and tactics. Your the only person who has even tried to defend it. And your examples are getting more and more desperate to justify it.
Do you, in both honesty and hindsight, think it was a good idea to play Matthews at left back and Maatsen on the right of midfield?
You've completely just changed the whole argument from the one we were discussing
Nice of you to completely skirt that one
As for using a Youth Game to suggest Maatsen is comfortable (I firstly didnt use that word)... I was simply using it to show he's played there before
Upon completion of the game I felt Maatsen was no stronger / weaker at Left-Back (second half) to when he was Right-Midfield, same with Matthews when he was Left-Back and then Right-Back in the second
At the start of the game I was certainly surprised as presumed Maatsen would be playing ahead of Matthews (similar to Plymouth)
Now then... As for the genuine comment that you replied to... Do you think we only need to turn up to beat Accrington because of their fanbase?
Because of the fan base directly, no, because the fact the chairman has to publish the bar takings to explain how he pays the for the kit to be washed probably.
All other things being equal, despite the last 7 years, we are as close to Man United as a club than we are to Accrington Stanley.
As with 90% of games at this level, with this squad, set up right, set up positive, we should win 7 or 8 times out of ten.
Don't you agree?
Of course... I'm happy to agree with that statement
BUT and I said this last week (maybe a few weeks ago), we're not going to win every game are we, thats impossible
Even to match the points tally from 2018/19 we're allowed to lose and draw a maximum of five games... So its likely we'll drop points in ten games minimum
Which ten do you think that'll be?
The next ten if we set up like we have in the last ten.
Obviously we don't need to win them all but we need to try and win them all.
Winning every game, if not impossible, is highly unlikely but trying to win every game should be the bare minimum at this level.
I'll ask a question now.
Do you, honestly, think Bowyer has sent out the team, or even close to it, most likely to win (not not loose) the last 3 or 4 games?
Sooooo....
Hull: No... The way we started it did feel like we were going for a draw or smash and grab Plymouth: Yes... I thought we started well and stupid individual errors gave our attack too much to do Swindon: Yes... the line up was good but we didnt handle the pressure well enough
I'll skip Wimbledon
Shrewsbury: Yes... Again the line up was good, but we dont like being put under pressure
See my issue isnt that I dont like being critical of Bowyer - Its just I dont like to use the advantage of having hindsight... I know there will be fans like yourself who'll have a good understanding and will be able to predict what might happen from the team select. But every week from 2pm until 3pm on the Match Thread you'll have enough people on there predicting defeat from every line up that Bowyer selects, when it doesnt necessarily happen... e.g. the biggest one being when Pratley / Watson are selected in Midfield together
See I am a big fan of the Pratley/Watson double pivot (despite the fact Bowyer playes them the wrong way round) on the condition I get 2 of Maddison, Morgan, Williams or Shinnie there as well.
And that for me is the second biggest problem (after out of position players) what % of games have 2 of those 4 been on the pitch at the same time, let alone 3. That's what I mean by trying to win games as not trying to loose them.
You see finding someone to replace Shinnie has been the biggest issue of late... More so than Doughty in midfield
It might have been Fleetwood but felt he truly dictated the midfield and dont think we've got anyone else who can do that... It annoys the hell out of me as really hoped a Shinnie / Gilbey double act on either flank of the diamond could do that but the latter isnt producing now - Whether its because we dont have a quick enough player to make the run beyond the defence (his assist for Doughty @ Crewe) I really dont know
A loss against Accrington and the heat is seriously on Bowyer
Bowyer is on a lose-lose situation with a few people on here for Friday.
Lose and it’ll be ranting and get rid. Draw and it’ll probably be slightly similar.
Win and it’ll be “well we should be beating teams like Accrington”,
So are you saying Charlton shouldn't be beating teams like Accrington, who struggled to get 1,000 supporters in L2 recently?
Blimey some think we should be established in the Premier League and others think we should think ourselves fortunate if we can beat Accrington (who are they) Stanley.
You're right we should be beating teams like Accrington - But at the same time they're in their position on merit so they deserve to be respected
The fact they've previously struggled to get 1,000 supporters should have nothing to do with it
I'd be pretty pissed if I was reading on Social Media about our Championship / Premier League opponents in the future bemoaning they should be beating us, simply because we were once in League One with only 10,000 fans
Am sure a number of our more delicate fanbase would be too
You really need to stop digging this hole, it's beyond admirable now, your actually making your self sound like a twat.
@Covered End can be a knob, sometimes like most of us, but how can you argue that?
If Bowyer played Amos up front on Friday you would probably defend that under the "if it's good enough for Man City in 2005 its good enough for us now".
So what you think we only have to turn up because we're Charlton and they're Accrington because of the size of the fanbase?
Cmon dont be a prick like that!! - Certainly dont need to start using insulting language against me thats for sure!!
I didn't say you were a twat, I said you are starting to sound like one. I know for a fact you aren't one but your really clutching at straws now.
Your really defending the indefensible.
Using one youth game to suggest Maatsen is comfortable as a right midfielder?
OK say your theory that it was a good idea for Matthews to play at LB to nullify Wilkes, who I admit is one of the better players in this divison, is sound (despite no other manager in the world regularly doing it) which high quality inverted winger did we come across in the last game?
I think Bowyer's time is up, most people don't agree with me but almost to a man (and woman) they are questioning his selections and tactics. Your the only person who has even tried to defend it. And your examples are getting more and more desperate to justify it.
Do you, in both honesty and hindsight, think it was a good idea to play Matthews at left back and Maatsen on the right of midfield?
You've completely just changed the whole argument from the one we were discussing
Nice of you to completely skirt that one
As for using a Youth Game to suggest Maatsen is comfortable (I firstly didnt use that word)... I was simply using it to show he's played there before
Upon completion of the game I felt Maatsen was no stronger / weaker at Left-Back (second half) to when he was Right-Midfield, same with Matthews when he was Left-Back and then Right-Back in the second
At the start of the game I was certainly surprised as presumed Maatsen would be playing ahead of Matthews (similar to Plymouth)
Now then... As for the genuine comment that you replied to... Do you think we only need to turn up to beat Accrington because of their fanbase?
Because of the fan base directly, no, because the fact the chairman has to publish the bar takings to explain how he pays the for the kit to be washed probably.
All other things being equal, despite the last 7 years, we are as close to Man United as a club than we are to Accrington Stanley.
As with 90% of games at this level, with this squad, set up right, set up positive, we should win 7 or 8 times out of ten.
Don't you agree?
Of course... I'm happy to agree with that statement
BUT and I said this last week (maybe a few weeks ago), we're not going to win every game are we, thats impossible
Even to match the points tally from 2018/19 we're allowed to lose and draw a maximum of five games... So its likely we'll drop points in ten games minimum
Which ten do you think that'll be?
The next ten if we set up like we have in the last ten.
Obviously we don't need to win them all but we need to try and win them all.
Winning every game, if not impossible, is highly unlikely but trying to win every game should be the bare minimum at this level.
I'll ask a question now.
Do you, honestly, think Bowyer has sent out the team, or even close to it, most likely to win (not not loose) the last 3 or 4 games?
Sooooo....
Hull: No... The way we started it did feel like we were going for a draw or smash and grab Plymouth: Yes... I thought we started well and stupid individual errors gave our attack too much to do Swindon: Yes... the line up was good but we didnt handle the pressure well enough
I'll skip Wimbledon
Shrewsbury: Yes... Again the line up was good, but we dont like being put under pressure
See my issue isnt that I dont like being critical of Bowyer - Its just I dont like to use the advantage of having hindsight... I know there will be fans like yourself who'll have a good understanding and will be able to predict what might happen from the team select. But every week from 2pm until 3pm on the Match Thread you'll have enough people on there predicting defeat from every line up that Bowyer selects, when it doesnt necessarily happen... e.g. the biggest one being when Pratley / Watson are selected in Midfield together
See I am a big fan of the Pratley/Watson double pivot (despite the fact Bowyer playes them the wrong way round) on the condition I get 2 of Maddison, Morgan, Williams or Shinnie there as well.
And that for me is the second biggest problem (after out of position players) what % of games have 2 of those 4 been on the pitch at the same time, let alone 3. That's what I mean by trying to win games as not trying to loose them.
You see finding someone to replace Shinnie has been the biggest issue of late... More so than Doughty in midfield
It might have been Fleetwood but felt he truly dictated the midfield and dont think we've got anyone else who can do that... It annoys the hell out of me as really hoped a Shinnie / Gilbey double act on either flank of the diamond could do that but the latter isnt producing now - Whether its because we dont have a quick enough player to make the run beyond the defence (his assist for Doughty @ Crewe) I really dont know
His name is Albie Morgan
One day definitely... Not quite there on a consistent level for me, he's getting better and quick though!!
For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!
‘But for Bogle’s air kick we’d have gone in at 1-1’. Have you forgotten Tom Eaves howler of a miss by accident or because it suits your mantra to do so?
A loss against Accrington and the heat is seriously on Bowyer
Bowyer is on a lose-lose situation with a few people on here for Friday.
Lose and it’ll be ranting and get rid. Draw and it’ll probably be slightly similar.
Win and it’ll be “well we should be beating teams like Accrington”,
So are you saying Charlton shouldn't be beating teams like Accrington, who struggled to get 1,000 supporters in L2 recently?
Blimey some think we should be established in the Premier League and others think we should think ourselves fortunate if we can beat Accrington (who are they) Stanley.
You're right we should be beating teams like Accrington - But at the same time they're in their position on merit so they deserve to be respected
The fact they've previously struggled to get 1,000 supporters should have nothing to do with it
I'd be pretty pissed if I was reading on Social Media about our Championship / Premier League opponents in the future bemoaning they should be beating us, simply because we were once in League One with only 10,000 fans
Am sure a number of our more delicate fanbase would be too
I agree. Accrington are in the same league as us for a reason and because we are a bigger club we shouldn’t think we should be beating them and they should have our full respect.
However, we shouldn’t fear them. If Bowyer picks the right team, round pegs in round holes, takes the game to them, imposes our game on them then we should be good enough to beat them. Problem is I have no confidence that we will.
That is the sort of team selection and performance that gets managers the sack.
This. Unless we respond well next Friday I think Lee is toast. It's also the kind of team selection that loses the dressing room (unless Oshilaja & Maddison are unpopular among their teammates)
I think Maddison may be. There was a very muted celebration with him by just a couple of team mates after that great goal against Plymouth. Contrast that with every outfield player celebrating with Jonny after his goal against Wimbledon. All in, I think many of us are getting the feeling that the players just aren't happy with how they're being set up.
The only time I've seen us play with any real liquidity this season was second half against AFC Wimbledon and we had both Maddison and Williams on the pitch. That's an attacking lineup we haven't seen before or after. And yet that's the only time everything has clicked and all the moving parts came together. Wing backs bombing up the pitch and being put through, midfielders arriving late in the box, strikers being fed the ball in dangerous positions, it all worked and the opposition could not handle us.
But in the post-match comments you could tell LB didn't see it that way. He reckoned we'd been threatening to do that for a while. We absolutely had not! And we haven't since. Now the lineups are going the other way and Lee's answer to finding some attacking intent is by dropping both Maddison and Williams and playing Maatsen on the right side of a 4-4-2. It's indenfisible.
‘Playing players in their position is the most arm chair view of them all’
Im sorry but WTF?!!
Team meetings and individual instructions about how the opposition play or what the player your marking does (ie comes inside) is the absolute norm. You still play players in their natural position. Not a talented left back at right midfield whilst you’re playing two right footed players down the left. It’s just fucking madness.
Wingers who play on the opposite flank so they cut in must confuse the fuck out of you then!!
Maatsen is a fucking left back!!!!!!!!
What does he do when he's facing a winger who cuts inside... Suddenly he's got Maatsen on his wrong foot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
About half the premier league wingers are "inverted" how many full backs are?
Exactly. I can’t get my head around having to even explain it.
A left footed player will feel more at home playing left back because when they receive the ball, they open their body and have the whole pitch in front on them. A right footed player there, as we saw with Matthew’s yesterday, will always instinctively come inside onto their stronger foot, therefore minimising their options into congestion.
When defending, a left footed left back will try and show their winger inside, where usually, midfield support awaits. If their winger wants to go down the outside, they will feel much more comfortable tackling with that foot. That’s like defending 101. If you play a right footed player left back, then their instinctive, natural body shape, will be totally wasted.
You mean every manager that has lost to Liverpool over the last 3 seasons could have avoided defeat simply by swapping the full backs round?
You mean the Liverpool who have played the right footed James Milner at Left-Back over 50-times?
Surely they had another Left-Back they could have played there instead of him on those occasions...
Milner would at least be fairly comfortable on the left. He played there as a kid and when he first broke into the Leeds team as a teenager he was a left winger.
I doubt Adam Matthews had ever played on the left side of the pitch in his life until a couple of games ago.
Has played 21-games at Left-Back... Including when Celtic beat Barcelona 2-1 @ Celtic Park
Wasnt it Gallen in a recent meeting with the Bromley Addicks who admitted he used TransferMarkt at times?
Ha ha you've seriously done an online search to find a solitary youth game almost 2 years ago where Maatsen played right midfield. Well that's me sold, the kids a natural then.
Ok you're right, Bowyer was spot on with his team selection.
You forgot to comment on Matthews having played left back 21 times including when beating Barcelona 2-1.
Whilst I agree the formation didn't work, your challenge of having to do an online search is a bit weird.
It takes less than a minute to get from here, to Google to Maatsen's transfermarkt page and onto the positions he's played.
You want a petty action to prove a point, that took 42 seconds when timed.
What more is there to say? The guy looked like he'd never played there in his life last week, and didn't do much better there this week.
If you look at the stats, of those 21 games, it shows he's only actually played a full game at left back 13 times in his (so far) 11 year career. I'd call that an emergency stop gap, the issue of course is we don't need to play him there as an emergency stop gap, we had 2 other left backs in the squad.
And yes he did play there in the win over Barcelona. So did Joe Ledley. I don't want him back in our midfield though.
I do think players playing out of position isn’t helping, but I’m also starting to think that the current crop just aren’t that good.
Hoping Schwartz and this one other can give us something more. If we don’t do something on the personnel front in Jan I wouldn’t be putting any money on us going up
A loss against Accrington and the heat is seriously on Bowyer
Bowyer is on a lose-lose situation with a few people on here for Friday.
Lose and it’ll be ranting and get rid. Draw and it’ll probably be slightly similar.
Win and it’ll be “well we should be beating teams like Accrington”,
So are you saying Charlton shouldn't be beating teams like Accrington, who struggled to get 1,000 supporters in L2 recently?
Blimey some think we should be established in the Premier League and others think we should think ourselves fortunate if we can beat Accrington (who are they) Stanley.
You're right we should be beating teams like Accrington - But at the same time they're in their position on merit so they deserve to be respected
The fact they've previously struggled to get 1,000 supporters should have nothing to do with it
I'd be pretty pissed if I was reading on Social Media about our Championship / Premier League opponents in the future bemoaning they should be beating us, simply because we were once in League One with only 10,000 fans
Am sure a number of our more delicate fanbase would be too
You really need to stop digging this hole, it's beyond admirable now, your actually making your self sound like a twat.
@Covered End can be a knob, sometimes like most of us, but how can you argue that?
If Bowyer played Amos up front on Friday you would probably defend that under the "if it's good enough for Man City in 2005 its good enough for us now".
So what you think we only have to turn up because we're Charlton and they're Accrington because of the size of the fanbase?
Cmon dont be a prick like that!! - Certainly dont need to start using insulting language against me thats for sure!!
I didn't say you were a twat, I said you are starting to sound like one. I know for a fact you aren't one but your really clutching at straws now.
Your really defending the indefensible.
Using one youth game to suggest Maatsen is comfortable as a right midfielder?
OK say your theory that it was a good idea for Matthews to play at LB to nullify Wilkes, who I admit is one of the better players in this divison, is sound (despite no other manager in the world regularly doing it) which high quality inverted winger did we come across in the last game?
I think Bowyer's time is up, most people don't agree with me but almost to a man (and woman) they are questioning his selections and tactics. Your the only person who has even tried to defend it. And your examples are getting more and more desperate to justify it.
Do you, in both honesty and hindsight, think it was a good idea to play Matthews at left back and Maatsen on the right of midfield?
You've completely just changed the whole argument from the one we were discussing
Nice of you to completely skirt that one
As for using a Youth Game to suggest Maatsen is comfortable (I firstly didnt use that word)... I was simply using it to show he's played there before
Upon completion of the game I felt Maatsen was no stronger / weaker at Left-Back (second half) to when he was Right-Midfield, same with Matthews when he was Left-Back and then Right-Back in the second
At the start of the game I was certainly surprised as presumed Maatsen would be playing ahead of Matthews (similar to Plymouth)
Now then... As for the genuine comment that you replied to... Do you think we only need to turn up to beat Accrington because of their fanbase?
Because of the fan base directly, no, because the fact the chairman has to publish the bar takings to explain how he pays the for the kit to be washed probably.
All other things being equal, despite the last 7 years, we are as close to Man United as a club than we are to Accrington Stanley.
As with 90% of games at this level, with this squad, set up right, set up positive, we should win 7 or 8 times out of ten.
Don't you agree?
Of course... I'm happy to agree with that statement
BUT and I said this last week (maybe a few weeks ago), we're not going to win every game are we, thats impossible
Even to match the points tally from 2018/19 we're allowed to lose and draw a maximum of five games... So its likely we'll drop points in ten games minimum
Which ten do you think that'll be?
The next ten if we set up like we have in the last ten.
Obviously we don't need to win them all but we need to try and win them all.
Winning every game, if not impossible, is highly unlikely but trying to win every game should be the bare minimum at this level.
I'll ask a question now.
Do you, honestly, think Bowyer has sent out the team, or even close to it, most likely to win (not not loose) the last 3 or 4 games?
Sooooo....
Hull: No... The way we started it did feel like we were going for a draw or smash and grab Plymouth: Yes... I thought we started well and stupid individual errors gave our attack too much to do Swindon: Yes... the line up was good but we didnt handle the pressure well enough
I'll skip Wimbledon
Shrewsbury: Yes... Again the line up was good, but we dont like being put under pressure
See my issue isnt that I dont like being critical of Bowyer - Its just I dont like to use the advantage of having hindsight... I know there will be fans like yourself who'll have a good understanding and will be able to predict what might happen from the team select. But every week from 2pm until 3pm on the Match Thread you'll have enough people on there predicting defeat from every line up that Bowyer selects, when it doesnt necessarily happen... e.g. the biggest one being when Pratley / Watson are selected in Midfield together
See I am a big fan of the Pratley/Watson double pivot (despite the fact Bowyer playes them the wrong way round) on the condition I get 2 of Maddison, Morgan, Williams or Shinnie there as well.
And that for me is the second biggest problem (after out of position players) what % of games have 2 of those 4 been on the pitch at the same time, let alone 3. That's what I mean by trying to win games as not trying to loose them.
You see finding someone to replace Shinnie has been the biggest issue of late... More so than Doughty in midfield
It might have been Fleetwood but felt he truly dictated the midfield and dont think we've got anyone else who can do that... It annoys the hell out of me as really hoped a Shinnie / Gilbey double act on either flank of the diamond could do that but the latter isnt producing now - Whether its because we dont have a quick enough player to make the run beyond the defence (his assist for Doughty @ Crewe) I really dont know
His name is Albie Morgan
One day definitely... Not quite there on a consistent level for me, he's getting better and quick though!!
He’s the closest we have to Shinnie, he should get a run of games.
Sat back and watched the tennis with Forever addicted on one side of the net and a host of opponents on the other side. FA have got amazing stamina and how he gets some of those smashes back I will never know. Sorry FA but I think your using more spin than Dan Evans !
I missed most of the early games because I was out on loan but I have seen enough of the matches now to say despite the injuries Lee Bowyer isn't getting the best out of his players. The players look confused; The majority of the fans are confused. A fantastic opportunity after the Wimbledon (Not the tennis !) 2nd half to build on that attacking display and start playing on the front foot with players in their best position. Did it happen ? No Lee reverted back to his default position of trying to negate the other team.
The really sad thing for me is the Doughty Maatsen double act which would have given us plenty of pace down the left. They could've inter changed and ran League 1 RB ragged. Not Lee's fault that Alfie got injured but how often did he try this when he was fit ?
Seeing Matthews and Morgan on the left and constantly stopping to play the ball back because it so easy to defend against was so frustrating. In less than 10 minutes of second half we were getting at them with both Getting forward.
I have never seen young Barker play because I was AWOL watching Part time players but the report from you guys was he did ok. He's no where to be seen now !
Does Lee want to set his team up in the mode of Tony Pulis or Eddie Howe ?
I want it to be in the style of Eddie Howe's teams when they were in League 1and the Championship.
I don't want too double up on League 1 forwards like a Pulis set up, at the expense of being pro active and playing on the front foot.
I am I am a big Bowyer fan but that does not mean he is above criticism. Simply cannot understand playing people out of position and refusing to start games with Maddison.
ForeverAddickted, I'm wondering if there is any tactical switch you would say is not right. I think I'm right in saying you approve of Pratley CM at CH, Matthews RB at LB, Maatsen LB at RM, Gilbey CM at LM, JFC LM at RM, Pearce LCH in middle of 3, Pratley RCH or middle at LCH. I think this were about all of the players out of position at some point yesterday, so only 7.
If Schwarz signs and is on the wing is that ok? What about midfield would that be ok? How about anywhere in the defence? Is there any position that Bowyer could play someone out of position that you would disagree with?
I'm genuinely interested, not on a wind up.
You forgot Morgan CM at LM.
That's not a very new thing though, and it's worked in the past. After lockdown Bowyer lined up against Hull in a flat 4-4-2 with Morgan on the left of midfield and Deji at LB. Albie had probably his best ever game in a Charlton shirt and lost out to Cullen for MotM by 0.03 of a mark on this board. He then started in the same position against QPR for another good performance and another win. He was rested for Cardiff but was back in for Millwall, leaving out the games where we changed system and went to 3-5-2. I can forgive Bowyer for putting a player in a position where he's been effective before, people certainly weren't complaining about it when we got off to a great start in the new system. I think Bowyer's biggest error there was thinking that he could try the exact same thing against McCann a few months later and that he wouldn't cotton on. McCann put Wilks on the other wing and wasn't in charge of a team that was so downtrodden it could be out-efforted by our best triers this time. McCann saw him coming and dealt with it better
A loss against Accrington and the heat is seriously on Bowyer
Bowyer is on a lose-lose situation with a few people on here for Friday.
Lose and it’ll be ranting and get rid. Draw and it’ll probably be slightly similar.
Win and it’ll be “well we should be beating teams like Accrington”,
So are you saying Charlton shouldn't be beating teams like Accrington, who struggled to get 1,000 supporters in L2 recently?
Blimey some think we should be established in the Premier League and others think we should think ourselves fortunate if we can beat Accrington (who are they) Stanley.
I’m saying that as of this season, we don’t have the right to say we should be beating them. We’re in the same league as them THIS year. Part of the excitement outside the PL is that anyone can beat anyone each week.
A loss against Accrington and the heat is seriously on Bowyer
Bowyer is on a lose-lose situation with a few people on here for Friday.
Lose and it’ll be ranting and get rid. Draw and it’ll probably be slightly similar.
Win and it’ll be “well we should be beating teams like Accrington”,
So are you saying Charlton shouldn't be beating teams like Accrington, who struggled to get 1,000 supporters in L2 recently?
Blimey some think we should be established in the Premier League and others think we should think ourselves fortunate if we can beat Accrington (who are they) Stanley.
I’m saying that as of this season, we don’t have the right to say we should be beating them. We’re in the same league as them THIS year. Part of the excitement outside the PL is that anyone can beat anyone each week.
Right, but by that logic we CAN beat absolutely anyone in this league. We should not be setting up an ultra conservative defensive must not lose approach against the likes of Accrington Stanley.
If we lose to a better team then that's fine, it happens. If we sacrifice all attacking intent and excitement and lose anyway, that's another story entirely.
The only time I've seen us play with any real liquidity this season was second half against AFC Wimbledon and we had both Maddison and Williams on the pitch. That's an attacking lineup we haven't seen before or after. And yet that's the only time everything has clicked and all the moving parts came together. Wing backs bombing up the pitch and being put through, midfielders arriving late in the box, strikers being fed the ball in dangerous positions, it all worked and the opposition could not handle us.
But in the post-match comments you could tell LB didn't see it that way. He reckoned we'd been threatening to do that for a while. We absolutely had not! And we haven't since. Now the lineups are going the other way and Lee's answer to finding some attacking intent is by dropping both Maddison and Williams and playing Maatsen on the right side of a 4-4-2. It's indenfisible.
Spent most of the second half sorting out laundry (had the game on laptop), I feel I made the right decision. Bogle poor, Pratley's red was silly and defence was also not great. Onto Accrington Stanley (who are they?)
"We’re hoping it’s not too bad – just from watching the game back yesterday and the way it happened. It wasn’t a full sprint. It looked quite innocuous, the way it happened near the touchline."
We know Watson wasn't likely to sprint for his hammie injury. Surprised a journo hasn't asked why MM didn't get any minutes after salvaging a point for us last weekend with a solo goal from nowhere.
The joy of a site like this is that we all have differing football opinions. It would be boring otherwise. We need to respect those that we may disagree with as well as respect their opinions. That is a big reason why we love the game. Debating tactics and formations with mates etc...
I recall in early October I voiced the opinion, not that Bowyer should be sacked, but he shouldn't have a free pass this season. My position was whilst I credited him with promotion, I also blamed him for our relegation. You then get ridiculous posts from posters trying to belittle your view and LOL what you say. It seems there has been a tide moving towards that view but whatever side you are on, we should debate but not take the mick.
FA knows his stuff and makes his points in the right way. I disagree with him in this instance, but it doesn't make him wrong. By all means we should say why we think he is wrong, but not make it personal.
That was the game, we should've had the boost, after scoring four 2nd half goals.
But even in that game, our 4th came straight after a defensive sub and that was due to a cock up by AFC.
If their defender cleared that properly and the 4th hadn't come, we would have been 1 goal up with the below team (3 attackers a midfielder and 6 defensive players:
Amos Gunter Pearce Pratley Maatsen Purrington Watson Forster-Caskey Williams Aneke Washington
Having scored the 4th, Bows swapped Oshi for Washington, meaning we finished with 2 attackers, 1 midfielder and 7 defensive players.
Yes again we went on to score, but we "thumped" Wimbledon inspite of Bowyers final 2 subs rather than because of them.
Comments
If he's stuck out there with no pace though then yeah I'd definitely question that
Pratley as Centre-Back: Certainly not as there was a big debate before the season started with plenty posting he was too slow for Midfield now and should be considered a CB
Matthews at Left-Back: Again no issue because he's played there plenty of times before now
Maatsen at Right-Mid: I would raise an eyebrow if that happened again and would keep a close eye on his performance
Gilbey at Left-Mid: Difficult one as he is struggling to fit in anywhere at the moment
Forster-Caskey at Right-Mid: Wouldnt have issue with him being left footed provided he's cutting in
Pearce at Left Centre-Back: Again no issue as he's left footed so if he's playing as part of a back three he should be either in the middle or on the left of the pairing
It might have been Fleetwood but felt he truly dictated the midfield and dont think we've got anyone else who can do that... It annoys the hell out of me as really hoped a Shinnie / Gilbey double act on either flank of the diamond could do that but the latter isnt producing now - Whether its because we dont have a quick enough player to make the run beyond the defence (his assist for Doughty @ Crewe) I really dont know
Wasnt surprised in the slightest when his number was called
One area where I'll happily berate Bowyer was starting Aneke against Plymouth, didnt think it was worth risking him getting booked with yesterdays game, thought Bogle would be more than adequate enough against Plymouth
Of course there was always the risk (as would have brought Aneke off the bench) but I thought we were playing dice with the devil starting him
Yeah but more annoyingly we made him look like a c***ish Iniesta.
However, we shouldn’t fear them. If Bowyer picks the right team, round pegs in round holes, takes the game to them, imposes our game on them then we should be good enough to beat them. Problem is I have no confidence that we will.
All in, I think many of us are getting the feeling that the players just aren't happy with how they're being set up.
But in the post-match comments you could tell LB didn't see it that way. He reckoned we'd been threatening to do that for a while. We absolutely had not! And we haven't since. Now the lineups are going the other way and Lee's answer to finding some attacking intent is by dropping both Maddison and Williams and playing Maatsen on the right side of a 4-4-2. It's indenfisible.
If you look at the stats, of those 21 games, it shows he's only actually played a full game at left back 13 times in his (so far) 11 year career. I'd call that an emergency stop gap, the issue of course is we don't need to play him there as an emergency stop gap, we had 2 other left backs in the squad.
And yes he did play there in the win over Barcelona. So did Joe Ledley. I don't want him back in our midfield though.
Hoping Schwartz and this one other can give us something more. If we don’t do something on the personnel front in Jan I wouldn’t be putting any money on us going up
FA have got amazing stamina and how he gets some of those smashes back I will never know.
Sorry FA but I think your using more spin than Dan Evans !
I missed most of the early games because I was out on loan but I have seen enough of the matches now to say despite the injuries Lee Bowyer isn't getting the best out of his players.
The players look confused; The majority of the fans are confused.
A fantastic opportunity after the Wimbledon (Not the tennis !) 2nd half to build on that attacking display and start playing on the front foot with players in their best position. Did it happen ?
No Lee reverted back to his default position of trying to negate the other team.
The really sad thing for me is the Doughty Maatsen double act which would have given us plenty of pace down the left. They could've inter changed and ran League 1 RB ragged. Not Lee's fault that Alfie got injured but how often did he try this when he was fit ?
Seeing Matthews and Morgan on the left and constantly stopping to play the ball back because it so easy to defend against was so frustrating. In less than 10 minutes of second half we were getting at them with both Getting forward.
I have never seen young Barker play because I was AWOL watching Part time players but the report from you guys was he did ok. He's no where to be seen now !
Does Lee want to set his team up in the mode of Tony Pulis or Eddie Howe ?
I want it to be in the style of Eddie Howe's teams when they were in League 1and the Championship.
I don't want too double up on League 1 forwards like a Pulis set up, at the expense of being pro active and playing on the front foot.
I will continue to back Bowyer him but...
If we lose to a better team then that's fine, it happens. If we sacrifice all attacking intent and excitement and lose anyway, that's another story entirely.
spot on
We know Watson wasn't likely to sprint for his hammie injury. Surprised a journo hasn't asked why MM didn't get any minutes after salvaging a point for us last weekend with a solo goal from nowhere.
yes, he disguises it as a jog but the difference and the way you can tell when he's sprinting is when it ends in a yellow card
I recall in early October I voiced the opinion, not that Bowyer should be sacked, but he shouldn't have a free pass this season. My position was whilst I credited him with promotion, I also blamed him for our relegation. You then get ridiculous posts from posters trying to belittle your view and LOL what you say. It seems there has been a tide moving towards that view but whatever side you are on, we should debate but not take the mick.
FA knows his stuff and makes his points in the right way. I disagree with him in this instance, but it doesn't make him wrong. By all means we should say why we think he is wrong, but not make it personal.
If their defender cleared that properly and the 4th hadn't come, we would have been 1 goal up with the below team (3 attackers a midfielder and 6 defensive players:
Amos
Gunter
Pearce
Pratley
Maatsen
Purrington
Watson
Forster-Caskey
Williams
Aneke
Washington
Having scored the 4th, Bows swapped Oshi for Washington, meaning we finished with 2 attackers, 1 midfielder and 7 defensive players.
Yes again we went on to score, but we "thumped" Wimbledon inspite of Bowyers final 2 subs rather than because of them.