On the Chris Powell point, there’s a clear synergy here.
After we got promoted we weren’t able to build that summer like we hoped. Cash pulled his cash, and I think all we managed to bring in was Laurie Wilson. We had a bad run of 2 wins in 12, we’re languishing 21st and there’s we’re a small but online noisy group of fans who wanted Powell sacked. We then had that 5-4 Cardiff game, started winning again and ended the season an impressive 9th.
Had we been allowed a summer with backing instead of just Laurie Wilson I'm convinced we would have got play offs.
Really fear we are going end up just like we did then, with those wanting Powell out hating those that wanted to support him.
Is that not what this thread does though? I'm expecting a no support thread to start up soon. If it's up to me Bowyer and co get till this time next year and we see where we are then.
Isn’t the Bowyer lost it thread a vehicle for that?
Do you think so? I should think theres a few on this thread who are in support of him think his lost it the last few games.
I think you have lost it every time I see you wearing shorts in the freezing cold. But you did buy me a large scotch at Wimbledon so I forgive you.
How many of us would have stayed in a job with the same number of issues that LB, JJ and SG have had to put up with ? I am convinced that once we have got Inniss and Famewo back in the team we will see a big improvement in performance and results. 100% support from me. COYR
At the beginning of the season I said with all that had been happening and the last minute assembly of players I’d be happy if we managed to stay in this league this season . I’d still be happy for that. I’m happy to support the management.
I'm 100%behind Bow and the others. Yes I've been frustrated recently and have called for there to be talks with Bow but not to get rid, just to calm him down from being ao rash towards players and to talk about his tactics and playing players out of position. Hopefully things will turn around sooner rather than later but either way he has my backing!
I want Bowyer to stay, but I cannot support any manager at any time who is doing things to "hurt" the team, and playing people out of position when he does not need to is crazy. If Luzon, Peeters, Riga, Slade, Robinson, and that other bloke who was here for five minutes did that (regularly), they would have been slated too. Curbishley, Powell, and Lawrence would never do it. We have two players at least for every position, play them in those positions!!!
Remind me of the four centre back choices Bow has had for any game in the last three months. Remind me of the four strikers worthy of the name that he had to choose from. How many more times does this point have to be made? The spine of this team is fragile, partly because our fitness/medical has been unfit for purpose since before Bow took over .How many more times does this point have to be made in these discussions?
100% behind the playing management including Steve Gallen.
Medical and fitness, step up
And yet we have at least 12 players for a maximum of 5 midfield positions - not including the likes of Gunter, Matthews, Maatsen and Osilaja who have all played there depending on the formation. That is because the balance of the squad was wrong with the thought that, should we get injuries, Pratley or Gunter could be utilised as CBs and we believed that we were signing Schwarz in the last window. The last 10 games are not just down to injuries because every team has those and there are very few that have the depth of squad that we have.
Fully behind LB and believe he should be given 'til the end of the season providing that there is a visible sign of improvement - that doesn't mean we have to go up but if we are unlikely to even make the play offs with say half a dozen games to go then we might just as well look at our options and give the right person, if they are available, time to assess the squad for next season.
No more excuses.
Four centre backs with Pratley covering is a good balance, having 3/4 out at a time isn’t normal.
Who are you including in the midfield 12? Levitt/Millar and Vennings didn’t count against the wage cap so it’s not as if that stopped us bringing in another player elsewhere.
JFC / Gilbey Pratley / Watson Shinnie / Morgan Maddison / Williams Doughty / Smyth Levitt (replaced by Millar) / Vennings
With regards to centre backs, LB refused to turn to either Oshilaja or Barker even though the latter did so well at the beginning of the season with LB preferring to play Pratley even though CB isn't his best position. Having 3/4 CBs out might not be normal but it isn't abnormal as it is the position most likely to suffer from suspensions - two injured and one suspended happens a lot. Liverpool have Gomez and VVD out for most of the season plus Matip injured. Man City have Laporte, Ake and Garica out.
The12 you mention are the ones I was referring to but the way I would look at it is that we have 16 players (Aneke, Schwartz, Washington and Bogle to be added) for 6 positions. And as I say that is without utilising the likes of Maatsen, Gunter or Matthews.
Ignoring the two keepers, I make it that we actually have a current squad of 25 players for 10 outfield positions. That doesn't even include 18 or 19 year olds that many other clubs in our League have to call on at times as we had to last season. Sometimes, though, less is more and the more options there are the more alternative ways there are to play - which results in a breakdown in continuity.
SCP only really used 15 players when we romped the League. He brought in most of that squad pre season and knew how he wanted to play. LB still needs to work that one out and we are now virtually half way through the season. And I hope he does for his sake as much as ours.
Joe Gomez has played centre half for England and won the premier league and European Cup (Champions League in new money) as a centre half.
Remind me how many games he played at centre half for Charlton when he was about the age Barker is?
For the record I would be tempted to play Barker if I'm honest but I can see why Bowyer appears reluctant to play a 17 year old at centre half in a team lacking physicality as ours does.
I'm not disagreeing with you about why LB didn't play Barker. It is the fact that he turned to a central midfielder rather than not just Barker but also lately Oshilaja. As he didn't have faith in either of them then he was always going to be left with just three he could turn to and with injuries and suspensions then we were always likely to be one short. And the way Pearce has been playing I would suggest we are still short - we've let in 15 goals in the 7 League games he's started this season.
So I go back to my original point and that is that we have so many midfielders that it will be impossible to keep them all either happy or for us to have any form of continuity or to maintain the fitness of some of them. In a couple of games time we could well have Pratley, Morgan, Williams, Shinnie, JFC, Millar, Smyth and Gilbey to pick from - and that assumes that Watson and Maddison are injured and that Vennings (soon to be 21 and only stated one League game anywhere) and Doughty are out of the equation too. Add into the melting pot Aneke, Schwartz, Washington and Bogle and there are actually 420 different combinations you could throw together if we played two up top and just the 224 if we have a lone striker!
LB made a lot of the fact that there are so many games to play which is why we need to rest players and rotate. There are, however, consequences of doing that and that is a lack of team understanding. Players, especially, ones new to the team need to develop that - and yet we've only played 8 games in the last 6 weeks and have more than 16 weeks to play our final 25 matches - that's 9 weeks with 2 games and 7 weeks with 1.
I want Bowyer to stay, but I cannot support any manager at any time who is doing things to "hurt" the team, and playing people out of position when he does not need to is crazy. If Luzon, Peeters, Riga, Slade, Robinson, and that other bloke who was here for five minutes did that (regularly), they would have been slated too. Curbishley, Powell, and Lawrence would never do it. We have two players at least for every position, play them in those positions!!!
Remind me of the four centre back choices Bow has had for any game in the last three months. Remind me of the four strikers worthy of the name that he had to choose from. How many more times does this point have to be made? The spine of this team is fragile, partly because our fitness/medical has been unfit for purpose since before Bow took over .How many more times does this point have to be made in these discussions?
100% behind the playing management including Steve Gallen.
Medical and fitness, step up
And yet we have at least 12 players for a maximum of 5 midfield positions - not including the likes of Gunter, Matthews, Maatsen and Osilaja who have all played there depending on the formation. That is because the balance of the squad was wrong with the thought that, should we get injuries, Pratley or Gunter could be utilised as CBs and we believed that we were signing Schwarz in the last window. The last 10 games are not just down to injuries because every team has those and there are very few that have the depth of squad that we have.
Fully behind LB and believe he should be given 'til the end of the season providing that there is a visible sign of improvement - that doesn't mean we have to go up but if we are unlikely to even make the play offs with say half a dozen games to go then we might just as well look at our options and give the right person, if they are available, time to assess the squad for next season.
No more excuses.
Four centre backs with Pratley covering is a good balance, having 3/4 out at a time isn’t normal.
Who are you including in the midfield 12? Levitt/Millar and Vennings didn’t count against the wage cap so it’s not as if that stopped us bringing in another player elsewhere.
JFC / Gilbey Pratley / Watson Shinnie / Morgan Maddison / Williams Doughty / Smyth Levitt (replaced by Millar) / Vennings
With regards to centre backs, LB refused to turn to either Oshilaja or Barker even though the latter did so well at the beginning of the season with LB preferring to play Pratley even though CB isn't his best position. Having 3/4 CBs out might not be normal but it isn't abnormal as it is the position most likely to suffer from suspensions - two injured and one suspended happens a lot. Liverpool have Gomez and VVD out for most of the season plus Matip injured. Man City have Laporte, Ake and Garica out.
The12 you mention are the ones I was referring to but the way I would look at it is that we have 16 players (Aneke, Schwartz, Washington and Bogle to be added) for 6 positions. And as I say that is without utilising the likes of Maatsen, Gunter or Matthews.
Ignoring the two keepers, I make it that we actually have a current squad of 25 players for 10 outfield positions. That doesn't even include 18 or 19 year olds that many other clubs in our League have to call on at times as we had to last season. Sometimes, though, less is more and the more options there are the more alternative ways there are to play - which results in a breakdown in continuity.
SCP only really used 15 players when we romped the League. He brought in most of that squad pre season and knew how he wanted to play. LB still needs to work that one out and we are now virtually half way through the season. And I hope he does for his sake as much as ours.
There's a few differences since Powell was managing in League 1.
In addition to the salary cap, the Covid situation means there are more mid week games due to the season starting later (but still finishing around the same time of year). Naturally that leads to more rotation to keep players fit and reduce injuries.
Short term loans were still an option, this allowed Powell to bring in players such as Ephraim and Russell to provide cover. That's not an option now, so squads need to be bigger by the time the transfer window closes.
After the injury problems of the last two years I can see why Bowyer's tried to put together the biggest squad possible. It does feel though that he's rotated more than he's had to, and more recently experimented too much with players in different positions and changing the formation almost every game.
Luck was on our side in 11/12 with Hamer, Solly, Taylor, Morrison, Wiggins, Hollands and BWP staying fit and playing the majority of league games. Of course the chance to properly plan and build that squad helped too, something Bowyer's never really been able to do in the same way.
I've no doubt Bowyer would like a core of players similar to that and a more settled formation/style of play, but that couldn't happen with the injuries, particularly to our centre backs. He's pretty much played Amos, Gunter, Watson, Pratley and Maatsen whenever he could and I'm sure Inniss, Famewo, Shinnie and Doughty would all be starting most games if they were available. Aneke would be included too if he could manage it, and hopefully Schwartz is added to that list. That's basically half his first choice team either injured or unable to play regularly.
In some ways Doughty was the key - had he stayed fit we'd have continued with 4-5-1/4-3-3, with 4-4-2 as an alternative. His injury meant Bowyer had to find a new way of playing and with him not trusting Morgan, Maddison and Williams enough to give them a run meant he kept tweaking things game by game. Smyth was the only alternative we had until Millar came in, and he's spent some time out injured himself.
I'm hopeful last night had signs that he can still turn it around. That comeback wasn't something you'd see when a manager has lost the dressing room, he didn't critisize players in public like he has been doing and we ended the game with an attacking but balanced team. He also talked about wanting to attack and accepted he was responsible for playing Smyth out of position. A simple 4-4-2 or 4-5-1/4-3-3 with pace out wide should be what we need at the moment and maybe he's starting to see that. Grinding out results and keeping clean sheets was working and perhaps he's taken a while to realise that we can't play that way with the players we have available.
100% support from me. Not blind faith, but support. When the time comes and he's had his time then I will wish him well. But we're not there yet in my view and I have found some of the more self-entitled comments from some of our fanbase on the subject crass, disrespectful and classless - shameful in fact.
On the Chris Powell point, there’s a clear synergy here.
After we got promoted we weren’t able to build that summer like we hoped. Cash pulled his cash, and I think all we managed to bring in was Laurie Wilson. We had a bad run of 2 wins in 12, we’re languishing 21st and there’s we’re a small but online noisy group of fans who wanted Powell sacked. We then had that 5-4 Cardiff game, started winning again and ended the season an impressive 9th.
Had we been allowed a summer with backing instead of just Laurie Wilson I'm convinced we would have got play offs.
Really fear we are going end up just like we did then, with those wanting Powell out hating those that wanted to support him.
On a positive note the fans arn’t at the games, so can’t give the players and management team dogs abuse although will probably make up for it on social media, please don’t pee TS off, or he’ll give up and clear off.
May I politely request that those who have a negative view of Bowyer please refrain from repeating (yet again) those views. They appear on every thread at the moment, so please leave a little room on the site for those of a more positive nature to hang out. Thank you in anticipation of your kind support.
Meanwhile even a Twitter poll has come out with 90% “support” based on nearly 1,000 respondents.
I'm not going to respond to @Scoham out of respect to the request made by @Redrobo, It is clear to me from @PragueAddick's comments that I am one of those that this request is being aimed at.
I apologise as I hadn't realised that certain threads aren't open to debate. That wasn't clear to me at the outset. I haven't on any thread called for Bowyer's head and have stressed my support for him 'til it comes to a situation where we don't make the play offs. I've questioned things for certain and probably too much too. That doesn't mean I don't care though.
The 2019 play-off final replayed on Sky Sports earlier. Rewatching it made me realise what a special journey we’ve been on since Bowyer, Gallen, Marshall, Basey and Jacko first took over the management. The interviews at the end are always a great watch, only football could produce those emotions.
It’s been full of ups and downs and has been anything but dull. I don’t think any other manager has ever had to deal with what Lee Bowyer has had to, and if they had, I really don’t believe they’d have stayed like Lee did.
This season has been a bit naff, but you’d be very naive to expect anything otherwise. It was a write off from the start, but we’re still slogging along in and around the top 6 - pretty much what the most optimistic of us expected.
We’ve got a lot of first 11 players to come back from injury, a couple more signings through the door and over half a season of football left. Keep the faith.
For what it’s worth I think expecting or showing loyalty to any player or manager is crazy and won’t be reciprocated. My only (football) loyalty is to Charlton Athletic.
You can pin your heart on players, managers and owners as you see fit but your devotion is based on a different interests to theirs and, eventually, those interests won’t align anymore.
Like when he was a player, Bowyer will stay with us for as long as it’s in his interests to do so, not out of some undying love for Charlton Athletic. He left he for Leeds when he we a youngster because it was a better proposition than staying at Charlton (it was good for us too due to the size of the fee) and if he got offered a better proposition now he would do the same.
Sorry if that sounds brutal but it’s true and just as we should keep him as manager for as long as it is in our interests to do so.
May I politely request that those who have a negative view of Bowyer please refrain from repeating (yet again) those views. They appear on every thread at the moment, so please leave a little room on the site for those of a more positive nature to hang out. Thank you in anticipation of your kind support.
Meanwhile even a Twitter poll has come out with 90% “support” based on nearly 1,000 respondents.
I'm not going to respond to @Scoham out of respect to the request made by @Redrobo, It is clear to me from @PragueAddick's comments that I am one of those that this request is being aimed at.
I apologise as I hadn't realised that certain threads aren't open to debate. That wasn't clear to me at the outset. I haven't on any thread called for Bowyer's head and have stressed my support for him 'til it comes to a situation where we don't make the play offs. I've questioned things for certain and probably too much too. That doesn't mean I don't care though.
Apologies again.
I meant that if anyone wants to continue suggesting Bowyer is dojng a bad job, and that another manager willing to take a L1 role would do a better job, they would need to address Scoham’s points rather than just pretending they didnt read it.
I see Scott Parker utilises a more experienced Assistant Manager at Fulham.
Are you not aware that Curbs had a Director of Football role at Fulham? It lasted about 6 months,if I recall right.
"On 24 December 2013, Curbishley was appointed technical director at Premier League side Fulham. In February 2014 following the appointment of a new manager at Fulham, Felix Magath, Curbishley was sacked after less than two months in the role"
I see Scott Parker utilises a more experienced Assistant Manager at Fulham.
Are you not aware that Curbs had a Director of Football role at Fulham? It lasted about 6 months,if I recall right.
I am aware
Good. I mention it because a number of people have proposed Curbs as a DoF to Bow as a “solution” to the “problem”. Others have gone further and suggested that Curbs should replace Bowyer, including a former director of the club. All this apparently is based on an assessment of a management career at Charlton which ended 14 years ago, and by studiously ignoring the candidate’s achievements in the following 14 years. In a normal business that would be a frankly nutty approach to senior management selection.
BTW I dont enjoy writing that, because Curbs remains easily the best manager in the 45 odd years I have been a fan, I never ever wanted him replaced in that time, and I like listening to him on VP now. It is not his fault if people choose to ignore stone cold realities.
How many of us would have stayed in a job with the same number of issues that LB, JJ and SG have had to put up with ? I am convinced that once we have got Inniss and Famewo back in the team we will see a big improvement in performance and results. 100% support from me. COYR
with respect, I think the c£400k salary would've softened the blow !!
Any additions to the coaching team needs to be appointed by LB, that way there will be a sense of everyone trying to turn around form together. LB might need some persuasion though to put this into place.
May I politely request that those who have a negative view of Bowyer please refrain from repeating (yet again) those views. They appear on every thread at the moment, so please leave a little room on the site for those of a more positive nature to hang out. Thank you in anticipation of your kind support.
Meanwhile even a Twitter poll has come out with 90% “support” based on nearly 1,000 respondents.
I'm not going to respond to @Scoham out of respect to the request made by @Redrobo, It is clear to me from @PragueAddick's comments that I am one of those that this request is being aimed at.
I apologise as I hadn't realised that certain threads aren't open to debate. That wasn't clear to me at the outset. I haven't on any thread called for Bowyer's head and have stressed my support for him 'til it comes to a situation where we don't make the play offs. I've questioned things for certain and probably too much too. That doesn't mean I don't care though.
Apologies again.
I meant that if anyone wants to continue suggesting Bowyer is dojng a bad job, and that another manager willing to take a L1 role would do a better job, they would need to address Scoham’s points rather than just pretending they didnt read it.
Well that really has got me confused!
@Redrobo requests that "those who have a negative view of Bowyer please refrain from repeating (yet again) those view"
You then suggest that it is "Game set and match to @Scoham" and that I "would need to address Scoham’s points rather than just pretending that I didn't read it".
No one has pretended they hadn't read it - in fact I had "liked" it. That doesn't mean that I agreed with all of it (although I do in part) but I respecedt the points that were made and the way that they were put across but also that I recognised the fact that this is not a thread for an alternative view - the number of "likes" that @redrobo received were confirmation of that especially as one of them came from the Founder of the site.
You will be pleased to learn that this will be my very last comment.
I see Scott Parker utilises a more experienced Assistant Manager at Fulham.
Are you not aware that Curbs had a Director of Football role at Fulham? It lasted about 6 months,if I recall right.
I am aware
Good. I mention it because a number of people have proposed Curbs as a DoF to Bow as a “solution” to the “problem”. Others have gone further and suggested that Curbs should replace Bowyer, including a former director of the club. All this apparently is based on an assessment of a management career at Charlton which ended 14 years ago, and by studiously ignoring the candidate’s achievements in the following 14 years. In a normal business that would be a frankly nutty approach to senior management selection.
BTW I dont enjoy writing that, because Curbs remains easily the best manager in the 45 odd years I have been a fan, I never ever wanted him replaced in that time, and I like listening to him on VP now. It is not his fault if people choose to ignore stone cold realities.
I completely agree. I feel that people just felt a nice comfort seeing Curb's at the Valley speaking about the club for prolonged periods of time. All while at the age of 63, he still looks like he did when manager which is testament to him. Excitement-led-solution ;-)
Comments
But you did buy me a large scotch at Wimbledon so I forgive you.
100% support from me. COYR
So I go back to my original point and that is that we have so many midfielders that it will be impossible to keep them all either happy or for us to have any form of continuity or to maintain the fitness of some of them. In a couple of games time we could well have Pratley, Morgan, Williams, Shinnie, JFC, Millar, Smyth and Gilbey to pick from - and that assumes that Watson and Maddison are injured and that Vennings (soon to be 21 and only stated one League game anywhere) and Doughty are out of the equation too. Add into the melting pot Aneke, Schwartz, Washington and Bogle and there are actually 420 different combinations you could throw together if we played two up top and just the 224 if we have a lone striker!
LB made a lot of the fact that there are so many games to play which is why we need to rest players and rotate. There are, however, consequences of doing that and that is a lack of team understanding. Players, especially, ones new to the team need to develop that - and yet we've only played 8 games in the last 6 weeks and have more than 16 weeks to play our final 25 matches - that's 9 weeks with 2 games and 7 weeks with 1.
In addition to the salary cap, the Covid situation means there are more mid week games due to the season starting later (but still finishing around the same time of year). Naturally that leads to more rotation to keep players fit and reduce injuries.
Short term loans were still an option, this allowed Powell to bring in players such as Ephraim and Russell to provide cover. That's not an option now, so squads need to be bigger by the time the transfer window closes.
After the injury problems of the last two years I can see why Bowyer's tried to put together the biggest squad possible. It does feel though that he's rotated more than he's had to, and more recently experimented too much with players in different positions and changing the formation almost every game.
Luck was on our side in 11/12 with Hamer, Solly, Taylor, Morrison, Wiggins, Hollands and BWP staying fit and playing the majority of league games. Of course the chance to properly plan and build that squad helped too, something Bowyer's never really been able to do in the same way.
I've no doubt Bowyer would like a core of players similar to that and a more settled formation/style of play, but that couldn't happen with the injuries, particularly to our centre backs. He's pretty much played Amos, Gunter, Watson, Pratley and Maatsen whenever he could and I'm sure Inniss, Famewo, Shinnie and Doughty would all be starting most games if they were available. Aneke would be included too if he could manage it, and hopefully Schwartz is added to that list. That's basically half his first choice team either injured or unable to play regularly.
In some ways Doughty was the key - had he stayed fit we'd have continued with 4-5-1/4-3-3, with 4-4-2 as an alternative. His injury meant Bowyer had to find a new way of playing and with him not trusting Morgan, Maddison and Williams enough to give them a run meant he kept tweaking things game by game. Smyth was the only alternative we had until Millar came in, and he's spent some time out injured himself.
I'm hopeful last night had signs that he can still turn it around. That comeback wasn't something you'd see when a manager has lost the dressing room, he didn't critisize players in public like he has been doing and we ended the game with an attacking but balanced team. He also talked about wanting to attack and accepted he was responsible for playing Smyth out of position. A simple 4-4-2 or 4-5-1/4-3-3 with pace out wide should be what we need at the moment and maybe he's starting to see that. Grinding out results and keeping clean sheets was working and perhaps he's taken a while to realise that we can't play that way with the players we have available.
Meanwhile even a Twitter poll has come out with 90% “support” based on nearly 1,000 respondents.
I apologise as I hadn't realised that certain threads aren't open to debate. That wasn't clear to me at the outset. I haven't on any thread called for Bowyer's head and have stressed my support for him 'til it comes to a situation where we don't make the play offs. I've questioned things for certain and probably too much too. That doesn't mean I don't care though.
Apologies again.
We’ve got a lot of first 11 players to come back from injury, a couple more signings through the door and over half a season of football left. Keep the faith.
BTW I dont enjoy writing that, because Curbs remains easily the best manager in the 45 odd years I have been a fan, I never ever wanted him replaced in that time, and I like listening to him on VP now. It is not his fault if people choose to ignore stone cold realities.
@Redrobo requests that "those who have a negative view of Bowyer please refrain from repeating (yet again) those view"
You then suggest that it is "Game set and match to @Scoham" and that I "would need to address Scoham’s points rather than just pretending that I didn't read it".
No one has pretended they hadn't read it - in fact I had "liked" it. That doesn't mean that I agreed with all of it (although I do in part) but I respecedt the points that were made and the way that they were put across but also that I recognised the fact that this is not a thread for an alternative view - the number of "likes" that @redrobo received were confirmation of that especially as one of them came from the Founder of the site.
You will be pleased to learn that this will be my very last comment.