You are certainly in a low risk group. No question but you should in my opinion take the vaccine. We are certain that over months the antibodies you have from your having had Covid will diminish. That’s not to say that other parts of your immune system, the T cells, B cells and Killer cells will not be functioning but because not enough time has elapsed we just don’t know that for certain. In my opinion I believe those parts of immunity will last many years but we don’t know. Still low risk ? Certainly but you will leave yourself more open to having the virus again and although you might not even know you have it you could be shedding to others more vulnerable than you. Not even taking the vaccine might stop re infections but it might reduce your viral load and therefore your ability to shed the virus. The only way this pandemic is defeated is by using every tool in the box to reduce transmission. By you, even in your low risk category taking the vaccine you are being a very tiny part in a very big but important cog in saving lives. In my opinion and that’s all it is, we have a responsibility and duty to get vaccinated. I suppose you could add that international travel will be seriously curtailed for you for many years if you cannot prove you’ve had both doses.
Thanks for response. This still doesn't seem particularly convincing to me - and by the way I'm just playing devil's advocate to an extent here, because I am booked in to get it tomorrow.
If it's accepted pretty much that I'm incredibly low risk of the virus, then it's the point about shedding to others more vulnerable - again most/all of whom should now have had it, or if they haven't they have chosen not to have it? And in that case should somebody who doesn't need the vaccine (i.e. me in theory) be vaccinated to protect somebody who is unwilling to have it to protect themselves?
Other point is with this stuff - for example we just don't regarding functioning of parts of the immune system you mention because not enough time has elapsed. Is there not a comparable point regarding lack of time elapsed in terms of measurement of impacts both positive (in terms of longevity) and negative (possible side effects) of the vaccine?
Not criticising anything you say and a very measured and honest appraisal from you - and it seems so to me because it doesn't actually still show in my view a compelling case for those in a similar position to me for having the vaccine - especially if it is accepted that there could be possible side effects from it? How confident are we that there are no longer term side effects of vaccine? Not saying there are at all and don't expect there to be.
But like you say, international travel seems to me to be the biggest factor for somebody young and healthy and that shouldn't really by why somebody would be having the vaccine!
The vaccine offers us two benefits. Firstly an individual one where people are offered protection from contracting Covid. Of course they don't register on headlines but I know of younger people who have developed long Covid and if you consider that a side effect, it isn't a pleasant one. Secondly, it is a collective benefit, but one that ultimately feeds into an individual one too. We are seeing the vaccine is effective in supressing transmission of the virus and there is a point where it will be incredibly effective. This requires a percentage of the population, local and Global to be vaccinated and it is ultimately the pathway out of this nightmare.
Of course people can leave it to the rest of us to be part of that percentage, whether it turns out to be 70%, 75%, 80% whatever but we may not be able to achieve it collectively if too many do. Take up is high in this country in relation to a lot of other countries but if people haven't been paying attention since the beginning of last year, what hope is there? We probably would all be speaking German if people took the attitude in the war not to do their bit in the fight against the Nazis. Doing your bit today means taking an extremely safe vaccine that is so much safer than contracting the virus whatever your age.
I had my second dose and am happy to report not even a mild side effect since then. Those people I know who have taken it only report mild and short term ones ranging from a day or two to a couple of hours.
You are certainly in a low risk group. No question but you should in my opinion take the vaccine. We are certain that over months the antibodies you have from your having had Covid will diminish. That’s not to say that other parts of your immune system, the T cells, B cells and Killer cells will not be functioning but because not enough time has elapsed we just don’t know that for certain. In my opinion I believe those parts of immunity will last many years but we don’t know. Still low risk ? Certainly but you will leave yourself more open to having the virus again and although you might not even know you have it you could be shedding to others more vulnerable than you. Not even taking the vaccine might stop re infections but it might reduce your viral load and therefore your ability to shed the virus. The only way this pandemic is defeated is by using every tool in the box to reduce transmission. By you, even in your low risk category taking the vaccine you are being a very tiny part in a very big but important cog in saving lives. In my opinion and that’s all it is, we have a responsibility and duty to get vaccinated. I suppose you could add that international travel will be seriously curtailed for you for many years if you cannot prove you’ve had both doses.
Thanks for response. This still doesn't seem particularly convincing to me - and by the way I'm just playing devil's advocate to an extent here, because I am booked in to get it tomorrow.
If it's accepted pretty much that I'm incredibly low risk of the virus, then it's the point about shedding to others more vulnerable - again most/all of whom should now have had it, or if they haven't they have chosen not to have it? And in that case should somebody who doesn't need the vaccine (i.e. me in theory) be vaccinated to protect somebody who is unwilling to have it to protect themselves?
Other point is with this stuff - for example we just don't regarding functioning of parts of the immune system you mention because not enough time has elapsed. Is there not a comparable point regarding lack of time elapsed in terms of measurement of impacts both positive (in terms of longevity) and negative (possible side effects) of the vaccine?
Not criticising anything you say and a very measured and honest appraisal from you - and it seems so to me because it doesn't actually still show in my view a compelling case for those in a similar position to me for having the vaccine - especially if it is accepted that there could be possible side effects from it? How confident are we that there are no longer term side effects of vaccine? Not saying there are at all and don't expect there to be.
But like you say, international travel seems to me to be the biggest factor for somebody young and healthy and that shouldn't really by why somebody would be having the vaccine!
There will be some people in the community who for various reasons can’t take the vaccine. There will be people out there who have had both shots but for medical reasons could still be at risk if they were to contract Covid. No vaccine is 100% effective. There will be people who have had both shots who are in a small but still highly vulnerable group because they are non responders to the vaccines. By way of an example, during my NHS career I was offered a vaccination against Hepatitis B. A quite nasty blood born virus and I worked in a job where I routinely came into contact with blood. Not once in my career after numerous jabs did I ever respond to Hep B vaccine. Then there are of course those misguided enough to reject the vaccine. Why bother thinking about their wellbeing ? It’s because of all of the above. They would be spreaders and some will become ill and die. I don’t think any of us want to see that regardless of their views. The more the virus has the opportunity to spread the more it has the opportunity to mutate into a variant we don’t have such good protection against. It’s a very big worldwide picture and I think we should all play our minuscule role in preventing deaths and serious illness.
You are certainly in a low risk group. No question but you should in my opinion take the vaccine. We are certain that over months the antibodies you have from your having had Covid will diminish. That’s not to say that other parts of your immune system, the T cells, B cells and Killer cells will not be functioning but because not enough time has elapsed we just don’t know that for certain. In my opinion I believe those parts of immunity will last many years but we don’t know. Still low risk ? Certainly but you will leave yourself more open to having the virus again and although you might not even know you have it you could be shedding to others more vulnerable than you. Not even taking the vaccine might stop re infections but it might reduce your viral load and therefore your ability to shed the virus. The only way this pandemic is defeated is by using every tool in the box to reduce transmission. By you, even in your low risk category taking the vaccine you are being a very tiny part in a very big but important cog in saving lives. In my opinion and that’s all it is, we have a responsibility and duty to get vaccinated. I suppose you could add that international travel will be seriously curtailed for you for many years if you cannot prove you’ve had both doses.
Thanks for response. This still doesn't seem particularly convincing to me - and by the way I'm just playing devil's advocate to an extent here, because I am booked in to get it tomorrow.
If it's accepted pretty much that I'm incredibly low risk of the virus, then it's the point about shedding to others more vulnerable - again most/all of whom should now have had it, or if they haven't they have chosen not to have it? And in that case should somebody who doesn't need the vaccine (i.e. me in theory) be vaccinated to protect somebody who is unwilling to have it to protect themselves?
Other point is with this stuff - for example we just don't regarding functioning of parts of the immune system you mention because not enough time has elapsed. Is there not a comparable point regarding lack of time elapsed in terms of measurement of impacts both positive (in terms of longevity) and negative (possible side effects) of the vaccine?
Not criticising anything you say and a very measured and honest appraisal from you - and it seems so to me because it doesn't actually still show in my view a compelling case for those in a similar position to me for having the vaccine - especially if it is accepted that there could be possible side effects from it? How confident are we that there are no longer term side effects of vaccine? Not saying there are at all and don't expect there to be.
But like you say, international travel seems to me to be the biggest factor for somebody young and healthy and that shouldn't really by why somebody would be having the vaccine!
2 points.
1 - even if you've had it the vaccine is shown to give you more protection with every dose.
2 - the old/vulnerable with weaker immune systems are likely to be less protected and have that protection last a shorter period of time due to the strength (or lack thereof) of their immune system. So passing it to someone vulnerable is still possible (and possible likely as time goes on) even if they are vaccinated. So you want to reduce your chances of being able to pass it on as much as possible.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
Well I haven't read the first 74 pages, but my response to your comment is essentially the same as the response to Suzi. Suzi's suggestion which I'm not criticising, just challenging, is that I should be having the vaccine to protect others who might get seriously ill or die from it - but all of those should already have been vaccinated, so I'm not sure that's actually a convincing answer.
I've already said not all the vulnerable have been vaccinated and not all the vulnerable will be safe even if they have been vaccinated.
If people don't want to have the vaccine they won't and low vaccine uptake ultimately makes vaccine programs less effective.
There is a huge amount of information/evidence out there but invariably a lot of people will simply ignore it.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
Well I haven't read the first 74 pages, but my response to your comment is essentially the same as the response to Suzi. Suzi's suggestion which I'm not criticising, just challenging, is that I should be having the vaccine to protect others who might get seriously ill or die from it - but all of those should already have been vaccinated, so I'm not sure that's actually a convincing answer.
You don’t need to have read the previous pages, I’m telling you a fact that Suzi’s post is one of the best summaries of covid vaccination process.
As you’ve said the vaccination is not 100%, but does add protection to those taking it against the virus. The added protection bit is surely the part that convinces you though.
This isn’t a great analogy, but trying to think of something that will convince you after you’ve not accepted other great replies. If someone said you need to jump out of a plane, and you can either have a parachute or no parachute, which would you choose? Either way you’re jumping out of the plane, but one gives you some added protection.
Sensible points raised above, to a sensible original post. Who on Earth would have thought that was possible?
Should bookmark pages 75 and 76 of this thread for the tinfoil hat nutters - if they can't figure it out after reading through these, there's no hope for them.
This discussion does raise a serious debate - isn't it about time that vaccination was given a bigger focus in the Science syllabus? I know that Science education at GCSE level in this country is dreadful (which makes the fact we excel at it at degree level and beyond even more remarkable) - but surely something a bit more than the derisory half a lesson I think I got on it (and I took double science at GCSE) is appropriate now?
Cheers Shooters. This is free speech as it should be. I doubt if the Chinese government will ever admit there was a leak. But, for sure I will not swallow the given story about wet markets and eating bats. I am surprised that you are in total denial about normal deaths being attributed to Covid. I have at least ten different sources giving me apparent facts and this is not me seeking them out, they just pop up in general conversation. One close to hand is from my 93 year old mother who lives in an independent care home. She is the only unvaccinated and very healthy resident in her building (Several carers have refused the jab). So, her two next door neighbours were admitted to hospital before Christmas. One with a severe respiratory condition and the other with pneumonia. Both, as is my mum, were regularly tested for Covid-19 in the care home. They were in hospital for about three weeks and both died. Everyone in the care home was shocked to hear that Covid-19 was given as the cause of death when they were clearly really suffering with their given conditions. Last week my 'roofer' (we're getting our soffics done), who has had one jab, told me about his friend who died hours after getting his jab. He is now too scared to have his second jab and is a tough gypsy type of bloke. I'll not bore you with more scenarios but just to reaffirm that personally I have no fear of Covid itself but have rather a horror at the current agenda of coercion to mass vaccinate humanity with unlicensed and experimental ‘medicine’ for something that 99.7 % of people would recover from and thereby develop their own immunity to.
Frankly, I find it bizarre and at the same time hilarious that someone undertaking the second most dangerous job (after tree surgeon) in the UK should be scared of having a vaccine.
Sensible points raised above, to a sensible original post. Who on Earth would have thought that was possible?
Should bookmark pages 75 and 76 of this thread for the tinfoil hat nutters - if they can't figure it out after reading through these, there's no hope for them.
This discussion does raise a serious debate - isn't it about time that vaccination was given a bigger focus in the Science syllabus? I know that Science education at GCSE level in this country is dreadful (which makes the fact we excel at it at degree level and beyond even more remarkable) - but surely something a bit more than the derisory half a lesson I think I got on it (and I took double science at GCSE) is appropriate now?
Do they not teach each science as separate subject any more? When I was at school Biology, Human Biology, Chemistry and Physics were all taught as separate 'O' level subjects.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
Well I haven't read the first 74 pages, but my response to your comment is essentially the same as the response to Suzi. Suzi's suggestion which I'm not criticising, just challenging, is that I should be having the vaccine to protect others who might get seriously ill or die from it - but all of those should already have been vaccinated, so I'm not sure that's actually a convincing answer.
You don’t need to have read the previous pages, I’m telling you a fact that Suzi’s post is one of the best summaries of covid vaccination process.
As you’ve said the vaccination is not 100%, but does add protection to those taking it against the virus. The added protection bit is surely the part that convinces you though.
This isn’t a great analogy, but trying to think of something that will convince you after you’ve not accepted other great replies. If someone said you need to jump out of a plane, and you can either have a parachute or no parachute, which would you choose? Either way you’re jumping out of the plane, but one gives you some added protection.
that's an atrocious analogy.
If I jump out of a plane there is a 0.01% chance (probably more) I will live. So I'll take the parachute which maybe gives me a 90% chance of living?
If I don't take the covid vaccine there is a 0.01% (maybe less) chance I will die and what maybe a 0.01% chance I would contract the virus, pass it onto somebody vulnerable / unprotected and/or protected and they then die as a result? What percentage improvement is taking the vaccine giving versus using a parachute!
I get the "added protection" point but like I say - this, and the whole thing, is built on statistics right. But the predicted added protection to either myself or others seems to be so, so minute and there are downsides and unknowns with the vaccine too?
I suppose the purpose of my post was to see if anyone can give me what I see as a really compelling / indisputable argument for. I'm challenging Suzi's and yours because I don't think they comprise anything close to that. The arguments for seem so minute when you look at the maths, are also based on assumptions / guesswork to a large extent at this stage - and then there is the side point that (whilst also extremely unlikely) there could be a downside to the vaccine.
That said, as I said above, I'm cracking on with it anyway, but I'm just not convinced by it.
Sensible points raised above, to a sensible original post. Who on Earth would have thought that was possible?
Should bookmark pages 75 and 76 of this thread for the tinfoil hat nutters - if they can't figure it out after reading through these, there's no hope for them.
This discussion does raise a serious debate - isn't it about time that vaccination was given a bigger focus in the Science syllabus? I know that Science education at GCSE level in this country is dreadful (which makes the fact we excel at it at degree level and beyond even more remarkable) - but surely something a bit more than the derisory half a lesson I think I got on it (and I took double science at GCSE) is appropriate now?
Do they not teach each science as separate subject any more? When I was at school Biology, Human Biology, Chemistry and Physics were all taught as separate 'O' level subjects.
The lessons are separate but usually a combined qualification.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
Well I haven't read the first 74 pages, but my response to your comment is essentially the same as the response to Suzi. Suzi's suggestion which I'm not criticising, just challenging, is that I should be having the vaccine to protect others who might get seriously ill or die from it - but all of those should already have been vaccinated, so I'm not sure that's actually a convincing answer.
You don’t need to have read the previous pages, I’m telling you a fact that Suzi’s post is one of the best summaries of covid vaccination process.
As you’ve said the vaccination is not 100%, but does add protection to those taking it against the virus. The added protection bit is surely the part that convinces you though.
This isn’t a great analogy, but trying to think of something that will convince you after you’ve not accepted other great replies. If someone said you need to jump out of a plane, and you can either have a parachute or no parachute, which would you choose? Either way you’re jumping out of the plane, but one gives you some added protection.
that's an atrocious analogy.
If I jump out of a plane there is a 0.01% chance (probably more) I will live. So I'll take the parachute which maybe gives me a 90% chance of living?
If I don't take the covid vaccine there is a 0.01% (maybe less) chance I will die and what maybe a 0.01% chance I would contract the virus, pass it onto somebody vulnerable / unprotected and/or protected and they then die as a result? What percentage improvement is taking the vaccine giving versus using a parachute!
I get the "added protection" point but like I say - this, and the whole thing, is built on statistics right. But the predicted added protection to either myself or others seems to be so, so minute and there are downsides and unknowns with the vaccine too?
I suppose the purpose of my post was to see if anyone can give me what I see as a really compelling / indisputable argument for. I'm challenging Suzi's and yours because I don't think they comprise anything close to that. The arguments for seem so minute when you look at the maths, are also based on assumptions / guesswork to a large extent at this stage - and then there is the side point that (whilst also extremely unlikely) there could be a downside to the vaccine.
That said, as I said above, I'm cracking on with it anyway, but I'm just not convinced by it.
Fair enough. Does seem to me that your stance does have to many I, I, I and Me, me me to it. The reality is to beat the virus we need as many people taking the vaccine as possible. If that mean some small sacrifices then I think it’s worth it. Good luck with you vaccine.
Sensible points raised above, to a sensible original post. Who on Earth would have thought that was possible?
Should bookmark pages 75 and 76 of this thread for the tinfoil hat nutters - if they can't figure it out after reading through these, there's no hope for them.
This discussion does raise a serious debate - isn't it about time that vaccination was given a bigger focus in the Science syllabus? I know that Science education at GCSE level in this country is dreadful (which makes the fact we excel at it at degree level and beyond even more remarkable) - but surely something a bit more than the derisory half a lesson I think I got on it (and I took double science at GCSE) is appropriate now?
Do they not teach each science as separate subject any more? When I was at school Biology, Human Biology, Chemistry and Physics were all taught as separate 'O' level subjects.
No - unless it's changed again? When I was at school it was combined as 'science' or 'double science' if you chose it as an option - only returning to Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Geology etc at A level
In all honesty I’ve never understood the school syllabus. Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying one is more important than the other but for your average person I can’t understand why kids come out of school having read some Shakespeare but not having a clue what their pancreas does or where to find it. The general levels of ignorance about basic human anatomy, physiology and pathology is staggering. Going through life what could be more important than your own body. I think that those three plus first aid to St. John’s level if taught from very early on might actually save lives.
I studied Biology at 'O' level, then Human Biology as a separate 'O' level in the first year of my Biology 'A' Level course. To have all sciences combined must be a very watered down version of the old system.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
Well I haven't read the first 74 pages, but my response to your comment is essentially the same as the response to Suzi. Suzi's suggestion which I'm not criticising, just challenging, is that I should be having the vaccine to protect others who might get seriously ill or die from it - but all of those should already have been vaccinated, so I'm not sure that's actually a convincing answer.
You don’t need to have read the previous pages, I’m telling you a fact that Suzi’s post is one of the best summaries of covid vaccination process.
As you’ve said the vaccination is not 100%, but does add protection to those taking it against the virus. The added protection bit is surely the part that convinces you though.
This isn’t a great analogy, but trying to think of something that will convince you after you’ve not accepted other great replies. If someone said you need to jump out of a plane, and you can either have a parachute or no parachute, which would you choose? Either way you’re jumping out of the plane, but one gives you some added protection.
that's an atrocious analogy.
If I jump out of a plane there is a 0.01% chance (probably more) I will live. So I'll take the parachute which maybe gives me a 90% chance of living?
If I don't take the covid vaccine there is a 0.01% (maybe less) chance I will die and what maybe a 0.01% chance I would contract the virus, pass it onto somebody vulnerable / unprotected and/or protected and they then die as a result? What percentage improvement is taking the vaccine giving versus using a parachute!
I get the "added protection" point but like I say - this, and the whole thing, is built on statistics right. But the predicted added protection to either myself or others seems to be so, so minute and there are downsides and unknowns with the vaccine too?
I suppose the purpose of my post was to see if anyone can give me what I see as a really compelling / indisputable argument for. I'm challenging Suzi's and yours because I don't think they comprise anything close to that. The arguments for seem so minute when you look at the maths, are also based on assumptions / guesswork to a large extent at this stage - and then there is the side point that (whilst also extremely unlikely) there could be a downside to the vaccine.
That said, as I said above, I'm cracking on with it anyway, but I'm just not convinced by it.
Fair enough. Does seem to me that your stance does have to many I, I, I and Me, me me to it. The reality is to beat the virus we need as many people taking the vaccine as possible. If that mean some small sacrifices then I think it’s worth it. Good luck with you vaccine.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
Well I haven't read the first 74 pages, but my response to your comment is essentially the same as the response to Suzi. Suzi's suggestion which I'm not criticising, just challenging, is that I should be having the vaccine to protect others who might get seriously ill or die from it - but all of those should already have been vaccinated, so I'm not sure that's actually a convincing answer.
You don’t need to have read the previous pages, I’m telling you a fact that Suzi’s post is one of the best summaries of covid vaccination process.
As you’ve said the vaccination is not 100%, but does add protection to those taking it against the virus. The added protection bit is surely the part that convinces you though.
This isn’t a great analogy, but trying to think of something that will convince you after you’ve not accepted other great replies. If someone said you need to jump out of a plane, and you can either have a parachute or no parachute, which would you choose? Either way you’re jumping out of the plane, but one gives you some added protection.
that's an atrocious analogy.
If I jump out of a plane there is a 0.01% chance (probably more) I will live. So I'll take the parachute which maybe gives me a 90% chance of living?
If I don't take the covid vaccine there is a 0.01% (maybe less) chance I will die and what maybe a 0.01% chance I would contract the virus, pass it onto somebody vulnerable / unprotected and/or protected and they then die as a result? What percentage improvement is taking the vaccine giving versus using a parachute!
I get the "added protection" point but like I say - this, and the whole thing, is built on statistics right. But the predicted added protection to either myself or others seems to be so, so minute and there are downsides and unknowns with the vaccine too?
I suppose the purpose of my post was to see if anyone can give me what I see as a really compelling / indisputable argument for. I'm challenging Suzi's and yours because I don't think they comprise anything close to that. The arguments for seem so minute when you look at the maths, are also based on assumptions / guesswork to a large extent at this stage - and then there is the side point that (whilst also extremely unlikely) there could be a downside to the vaccine.
That said, as I said above, I'm cracking on with it anyway, but I'm just not convinced by it.
Fair enough. Does seem to me that your stance does have to many I, I, I and Me, me me to it. The reality is to beat the virus we need as many people taking the vaccine as possible. If that mean some small sacrifices then I think it’s worth it. Good luck with you vaccine.
don't think that's a remotely fair comment at all. The 'I' comments were essentially brought up in response to the frankly ridiculous parachute comparison which was clearly addressed to me as a single individual.
All of my challenging on this has been trying to find a compelling reason in relation to wider society for both myself or people of my demographic to take the vaccine - because I'm already pretty convinced there's little to no personal benefit for me individually which you broadly acknowledged yourself.
My questions are all about a general point here which applies to both myself as an individual and as a wider question for everybody, including government, weighing up pros and cons for society of this programme:
- is a healthy under 40 year old doing themselves any good by taking the vaccine? possibly a tiny amount but negligible at most in statistical terms; - is a healthy under 40 year old doing others a favour by taking the vaccine? possibly, but again a tiny amount in statistical terms; - is a healthy under under 40 year old doing themselves any negatives by taking the vaccine? Probably not other than short-term but we don't necessarily know for sure?;
Is it right for people to be coerced into taking a vaccine when all the stats and these points above are taken into account? I'm not saying it is or it isn't and I'm delighted so many people have taken it because I'm hoping it will translate into less hospital admissions which is ultimately all that matters and if it does should mean that society can remain open. But for me that is the primary question is - are hospital admissions going up? If not, even if only 50% of the population have been vaccinated, I don't really see why there is a need for the other 50% to be done.
I think it's an unreasonable stance to call anyone selfish for wanting to think about and challenge these things - especially after such catastrophic f*** ups by those making the rules across the last 18 months.
I studied Biology at 'O' level, then Human Biology as a separate 'O' level in the first year of my Biology 'A' Level course. To have all sciences combined must be a very watered down version of the old system.
Truancy was my preference. Probably shows in the way I post on here 😦
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
Well I haven't read the first 74 pages, but my response to your comment is essentially the same as the response to Suzi. Suzi's suggestion which I'm not criticising, just challenging, is that I should be having the vaccine to protect others who might get seriously ill or die from it - but all of those should already have been vaccinated, so I'm not sure that's actually a convincing answer.
You don’t need to have read the previous pages, I’m telling you a fact that Suzi’s post is one of the best summaries of covid vaccination process.
As you’ve said the vaccination is not 100%, but does add protection to those taking it against the virus. The added protection bit is surely the part that convinces you though.
This isn’t a great analogy, but trying to think of something that will convince you after you’ve not accepted other great replies. If someone said you need to jump out of a plane, and you can either have a parachute or no parachute, which would you choose? Either way you’re jumping out of the plane, but one gives you some added protection.
that's an atrocious analogy.
If I jump out of a plane there is a 0.01% chance (probably more) I will live. So I'll take the parachute which maybe gives me a 90% chance of living?
If I don't take the covid vaccine there is a 0.01% (maybe less) chance I will die and what maybe a 0.01% chance I would contract the virus, pass it onto somebody vulnerable / unprotected and/or protected and they then die as a result? What percentage improvement is taking the vaccine giving versus using a parachute!
I get the "added protection" point but like I say - this, and the whole thing, is built on statistics right. But the predicted added protection to either myself or others seems to be so, so minute and there are downsides and unknowns with the vaccine too?
I suppose the purpose of my post was to see if anyone can give me what I see as a really compelling / indisputable argument for. I'm challenging Suzi's and yours because I don't think they comprise anything close to that. The arguments for seem so minute when you look at the maths, are also based on assumptions / guesswork to a large extent at this stage - and then there is the side point that (whilst also extremely unlikely) there could be a downside to the vaccine.
That said, as I said above, I'm cracking on with it anyway, but I'm just not convinced by it.
Fair enough. Does seem to me that your stance does have to many I, I, I and Me, me me to it. The reality is to beat the virus we need as many people taking the vaccine as possible. If that mean some small sacrifices then I think it’s worth it. Good luck with you vaccine.
don't think that's a remotely fair comment at all. The 'I' comments were essentially brought up in response to the frankly ridiculous parachute comparison which was clearly addressed to me as a single individual.
All of my challenging on this has been trying to find a compelling reason in relation to wider society for both myself or people of my demographic to take the vaccine - because I'm already pretty convinced there's little to no personal benefit for me individually which you broadly acknowledged yourself.
My questions are all about a general point here which applies to both myself as an individual and as a wider question for everybody, including government, weighing up pros and cons for society of this programme:
- is a healthy under 40 year old doing themselves any good by taking the vaccine? possibly a tiny amount but negligible at most in statistical terms; - is a healthy under 40 year old doing others a favour by taking the vaccine? possibly, but again a tiny amount in statistical terms; - is a healthy under under 40 year old doing themselves any negatives by taking the vaccine? Probably not other than short-term but we don't necessarily know for sure?;
Is it right for people to be coerced into taking a vaccine when all the stats and these points above are taken into account? I'm not saying it is or it isn't and I'm delighted so many people have taken it because I'm hoping it will translate into less hospital admissions which is ultimately all that matters and if it does should mean that society can remain open. But for me that is the primary question is - are hospital admissions going up? If not, even if only 50% of the population have been vaccinated, I don't really see why there is a need for the other 50% to be done.
I think it's an unreasonable stance to call anyone selfish for wanting to think about and challenge these things - especially after such catastrophic f*** ups by those making the rules across the last 18 months.
Sensible points raised above, to a sensible original post. Who on Earth would have thought that was possible?
Should bookmark pages 75 and 76 of this thread for the tinfoil hat nutters - if they can't figure it out after reading through these, there's no hope for them.
This discussion does raise a serious debate - isn't it about time that vaccination was given a bigger focus in the Science syllabus? I know that Science education at GCSE level in this country is dreadful (which makes the fact we excel at it at degree level and beyond even more remarkable) - but surely something a bit more than the derisory half a lesson I think I got on it (and I took double science at GCSE) is appropriate now?
Do they not teach each science as separate subject any more? When I was at school Biology, Human Biology, Chemistry and Physics were all taught as separate 'O' level subjects.
No - unless it's changed again? When I was at school it was combined as 'science' or 'double science' if you chose it as an option - only returning to Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Geology etc at A level
When I was at school it was watching kids trying to set each others costs alight on backs of chairs with bunsen burners! :-)
Yes Shooters, I was concerned by the TV coverage from India. The suffering was terrible. Three days ago I did a media search (mainly Google) to try to find out what the current situation is. Was it even worse? But it all seems to have gone quiet. Two friends of mine contacted their friends in India but they were fine and nothing going on in their cities. Weird. Re the Doctors; with all this false positive nonsense I'm guessing the Doctors found Covid in the system of the two old ladies that were sent to hospital with serious ailments. It beggars belief that Covid was given as the cause of death rather than pneumonia for example. The alarm bells went off in the old peoples home that I can assure you! Keston - what I wrote is absolutely true. I am concerned that people are now running around with stuff in their blood that may (or may not) harm them later on in life - I certainly hope not! We'll have to wait and see. That is the risk you take. Personally I live a healthy lifestyle, no booze, no meat (no microwave) lots of vitamins - boring I know but if I catch this virus then I am confident that my body will survive. When I stated this last year you all dissed me as a nutter. Well so be it, I am a Charlton fan after all, but importantly all my family are healthy and they have the same values as me. I have an open mind to these conspiracy theories. They seem far fetched to me. That someone could deliberately release a killer virus seems absurd but why are eminent scientists, including Nobel prize winners suddenly silenced when they object to government policy. Things like that bother me. I have recently started watching UK Column which takes a non-hysterical approach to these virus issues. It's worth a look if only to see the other side of things. Over and out I think.
Why whenever some misinformed person comes forward speaking about the 'real truth' and conspiracies, there's always some weird right-wing website behind it poisoning their mind.
I did all three sciences at A level and the step from GCSE was giant (this was double science, back in '96 so God knows what's changed since) and I really struggled with physics in particular which had a lot of maths. The gap to degree level was less onerous particularly as I went to Scotland and the first year was piss easy as Scottish Highers are only one year!
I think some practical science would be useful, in the same way that practical maths would be useful. I get you need to know the fundamentals of a very fundamental subject, but teaching people how to understand their financial affairs would make it relatable e.g. APR on credit cards and loans,
I also don't get how people don't want to understand their own body works, but then again people wonder about my total indifference to car maintenance
I did all three sciences at A level and the step from GCSE was giant (this was double science, back in '96 so God knows what's changed since) and I really struggled with physics in particular which had a lot of maths. The gap to degree level was less onerous particularly as I went to Scotland and the first year was piss easy as Scottish Highers are only one year!
I think some practical science would be useful, in the same way that practical maths would be useful. I get you need to know the fundamentals of a very fundamental subject, but teaching people how to understand their financial affairs would make it relatable e.g. APR on credit cards and loans,
I also don't get how people don't want to understand their own body works, but then again people wonder about my total indifference to car maintenance
I did all three sciences at A level and the step from GCSE was giant (this was double science, back in '96 so God knows what's changed since) and I really struggled with physics in particular which had a lot of maths. The gap to degree level was less onerous particularly as I went to Scotland and the first year was piss easy as Scottish Highers are only one year!
I think some practical science would be useful, in the same way that practical maths would be useful. I get you need to know the fundamentals of a very fundamental subject, but teaching people how to understand their financial affairs would make it relatable e.g. APR on credit cards and loans,
I also don't get how people don't want to understand their own body works, but then again people wonder about my total indifference to car maintenance
in 2009 I had the option of double sciences (all three squashed into 2 GCSE's) and triple science (A GCSE in each of Physics, Chemistry and Biology). I did double as there were more interesting things to study.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
Well I haven't read the first 74 pages, but my response to your comment is essentially the same as the response to Suzi. Suzi's suggestion which I'm not criticising, just challenging, is that I should be having the vaccine to protect others who might get seriously ill or die from it - but all of those should already have been vaccinated, so I'm not sure that's actually a convincing answer.
You don’t need to have read the previous pages, I’m telling you a fact that Suzi’s post is one of the best summaries of covid vaccination process.
As you’ve said the vaccination is not 100%, but does add protection to those taking it against the virus. The added protection bit is surely the part that convinces you though.
This isn’t a great analogy, but trying to think of something that will convince you after you’ve not accepted other great replies. If someone said you need to jump out of a plane, and you can either have a parachute or no parachute, which would you choose? Either way you’re jumping out of the plane, but one gives you some added protection.
that's an atrocious analogy.
If I jump out of a plane there is a 0.01% chance (probably more) I will live. So I'll take the parachute which maybe gives me a 90% chance of living?
If I don't take the covid vaccine there is a 0.01% (maybe less) chance I will die and what maybe a 0.01% chance I would contract the virus, pass it onto somebody vulnerable / unprotected and/or protected and they then die as a result? What percentage improvement is taking the vaccine giving versus using a parachute!
I get the "added protection" point but like I say - this, and the whole thing, is built on statistics right. But the predicted added protection to either myself or others seems to be so, so minute and there are downsides and unknowns with the vaccine too?
I suppose the purpose of my post was to see if anyone can give me what I see as a really compelling / indisputable argument for. I'm challenging Suzi's and yours because I don't think they comprise anything close to that. The arguments for seem so minute when you look at the maths, are also based on assumptions / guesswork to a large extent at this stage - and then there is the side point that (whilst also extremely unlikely) there could be a downside to the vaccine.
That said, as I said above, I'm cracking on with it anyway, but I'm just not convinced by it.
I would expect a parachute to give you a better than 90% chance seeing so many do it for recreation or charity.
@paulsturgess, I think your posts are excellent and you have perfectly set out the correct position/question.
The younger you get the less personal benefit you get with the vaccine(for the healthy).
I have 2 sons 29 & 26, the conspiracy theorist won't be getting jabbed (no surprise), the other will.
I think they probably should, but no one on this planet can state with 100% certainty that there won't be long term issues with the vaccine (even if extremely unlikely).
I've had both mine, but I'm undoubtedly higher risk than someone in 20's/30's. I'd say on balance you should get vaccinated, but it's not clear cut unless you are putting the health of others as the greater priority or at least equalish priority.
You are certainly in a low risk group. No question but you should in my opinion take the vaccine. We are certain that over months the antibodies you have from your having had Covid will diminish. That’s not to say that other parts of your immune system, the T cells, B cells and Killer cells will not be functioning but because not enough time has elapsed we just don’t know that for certain. In my opinion I believe those parts of immunity will last many years but we don’t know. Still low risk ? Certainly but you will leave yourself more open to having the virus again and although you might not even know you have it you could be shedding to others more vulnerable than you. Not even taking the vaccine might stop re infections but it might reduce your viral load and therefore your ability to shed the virus. The only way this pandemic is defeated is by using every tool in the box to reduce transmission. By you, even in your low risk category taking the vaccine you are being a very tiny part in a very big but important cog in saving lives. In my opinion and that’s all it is, we have a responsibility and duty to get vaccinated. I suppose you could add that international travel will be seriously curtailed for you for many years if you cannot prove you’ve had both doses.
Thanks for response. This still doesn't seem particularly convincing to me - and by the way I'm just playing devil's advocate to an extent here, because I am booked in to get it tomorrow.
If it's accepted pretty much that I'm incredibly low risk of the virus, then it's the point about shedding to others more vulnerable - again most/all of whom should now have had it, or if they haven't they have chosen not to have it? And in that case should somebody who doesn't need the vaccine (i.e. me in theory) be vaccinated to protect somebody who is unwilling to have it to protect themselves?
Other point is with this stuff - for example we just don't regarding functioning of parts of the immune system you mention because not enough time has elapsed. Is there not a comparable point regarding lack of time elapsed in terms of measurement of impacts both positive (in terms of longevity) and negative (possible side effects) of the vaccine?
Not criticising anything you say and a very measured and honest appraisal from you - and it seems so to me because it doesn't actually still show in my view a compelling case for those in a similar position to me for having the vaccine - especially if it is accepted that there could be possible side effects from it? How confident are we that there are no longer term side effects of vaccine? Not saying there are at all and don't expect there to be.
But like you say, international travel seems to me to be the biggest factor for somebody young and healthy and that shouldn't really by why somebody would be having the vaccine!
The vaccines will not be suitable for a certain percentage of the population, almost all of whom have serious abiding health issues, none of which will be visible to you. Generally our immune systems decline in effectiveness as we age, the older we are, the less able we are to resist infection. You contracted covid and didn't suffer, bully for you. Unvaccinated your risk of becoming seriously ill from a subsequent covid infection is probably low, but there is negligible clinical evidence for this, only observation. Your acquired immunity will decline over time. Vaccinated you will have clinically proven enhanced resistance to this infection. Much more importantly your body's enhanced immunity to this infection will drastically reduce your suitability as a host and vector for transmission. How old are your grandparents, great-grandparents? Any of your relatives, friends or colleagues had or having cancer treatment? Anybody in your circle got any immune condition or on immune suppressing medication? The chances of the vaccine being harmful to you are statistically around 1 in a million and practically probably lower. COvid was causing death or life changing harm in as much as 1 in 7 cases at its peak - predominantly in unprotected patients. Are you prepared to risk exposing anybody who can't be protected because you're 'not convinced' you benefit personally? To say nothing of the risks to those around you whose immunity is declining. Is your casual conviction more important to you than the health of your Nan, for example?
Comments
Of course people can leave it to the rest of us to be part of that percentage, whether it turns out to be 70%, 75%, 80% whatever but we may not be able to achieve it collectively if too many do. Take up is high in this country in relation to a lot of other countries but if people haven't been paying attention since the beginning of last year, what hope is there? We probably would all be speaking German if people took the attitude in the war not to do their bit in the fight against the Nazis. Doing your bit today means taking an extremely safe vaccine that is so much safer than contracting the virus whatever your age.
I had my second dose and am happy to report not even a mild side effect since then. Those people I know who have taken it only report mild and short term ones ranging from a day or two to a couple of hours.
1 - even if you've had it the vaccine is shown to give you more protection with every dose.
2 - the old/vulnerable with weaker immune systems are likely to be less protected and have that protection last a shorter period of time due to the strength (or lack thereof) of their immune system. So passing it to someone vulnerable is still possible (and possible likely as time goes on) even if they are vaccinated. So you want to reduce your chances of being able to pass it on as much as possible.
Mind if I ask you a quick question? Who would you prefer to be sat next to in a cinema, someone who has been vaccinated, or someone who hasn't?
If people don't want to have the vaccine they won't and low vaccine uptake ultimately makes vaccine programs less effective.
There is a huge amount of information/evidence out there but invariably a lot of people will simply ignore it.
Worst thing that'll happen if you take the vaccine is you MIGHT feel a bit groggy for a bit. Best case scenario you could be preventing someone from getting seriously ill or even saving their life.
Should bookmark pages 75 and 76 of this thread for the tinfoil hat nutters - if they can't figure it out after reading through these, there's no hope for them.
This discussion does raise a serious debate - isn't it about time that vaccination was given a bigger focus in the Science syllabus? I know that Science education at GCSE level in this country is dreadful (which makes the fact we excel at it at degree level and beyond even more remarkable) - but surely something a bit more than the derisory half a lesson I think I got on it (and I took double science at GCSE) is appropriate now?
If I jump out of a plane there is a 0.01% chance (probably more) I will live. So I'll take the parachute which maybe gives me a 90% chance of living?
If I don't take the covid vaccine there is a 0.01% (maybe less) chance I will die and what maybe a 0.01% chance I would contract the virus, pass it onto somebody vulnerable / unprotected and/or protected and they then die as a result? What percentage improvement is taking the vaccine giving versus using a parachute!
I get the "added protection" point but like I say - this, and the whole thing, is built on statistics right. But the predicted added protection to either myself or others seems to be so, so minute and there are downsides and unknowns with the vaccine too?
I suppose the purpose of my post was to see if anyone can give me what I see as a really compelling / indisputable argument for. I'm challenging Suzi's and yours because I don't think they comprise anything close to that. The arguments for seem so minute when you look at the maths, are also based on assumptions / guesswork to a large extent at this stage - and then there is the side point that (whilst also extremely unlikely) there could be a downside to the vaccine.
That said, as I said above, I'm cracking on with it anyway, but I'm just not convinced by it.
Fair enough. Does seem to me that your stance does have to many I, I, I and Me, me me to it. The reality is to beat the virus we need as many people taking the vaccine as possible. If that mean some small sacrifices then I think it’s worth it. Good luck with you vaccine.
All of my challenging on this has been trying to find a compelling reason in relation to wider society for both myself or people of my demographic to take the vaccine - because I'm already pretty convinced there's little to no personal benefit for me individually which you broadly acknowledged yourself.
My questions are all about a general point here which applies to both myself as an individual and as a wider question for everybody, including government, weighing up pros and cons for society of this programme:
- is a healthy under 40 year old doing themselves any good by taking the vaccine? possibly a tiny amount but negligible at most in statistical terms;
- is a healthy under 40 year old doing others a favour by taking the vaccine? possibly, but again a tiny amount in statistical terms;
- is a healthy under under 40 year old doing themselves any negatives by taking the vaccine? Probably not other than short-term but we don't necessarily know for sure?;
Is it right for people to be coerced into taking a vaccine when all the stats and these points above are taken into account? I'm not saying it is or it isn't and I'm delighted so many people have taken it because I'm hoping it will translate into less hospital admissions which is ultimately all that matters and if it does should mean that society can remain open. But for me that is the primary question is - are hospital admissions going up? If not, even if only 50% of the population have been vaccinated, I don't really see why there is a need for the other 50% to be done.
I think it's an unreasonable stance to call anyone selfish for wanting to think about and challenge these things - especially after such catastrophic f*** ups by those making the rules across the last 18 months.
Probably shows in the way I post on here 😦
When I was at school it was watching kids trying to set each others costs alight on backs of chairs with bunsen burners! :-)
And they call us sheep.
I think some practical science would be useful, in the same way that practical maths would be useful. I get you need to know the fundamentals of a very fundamental subject, but teaching people how to understand their financial affairs would make it relatable e.g. APR on credit cards and loans,
I also don't get how people don't want to understand their own body works, but then again people wonder about my total indifference to car maintenance
The younger you get the less personal benefit you get with the vaccine(for the healthy).
I have 2 sons 29 & 26, the conspiracy theorist won't be getting jabbed (no surprise), the other will.
I think they probably should, but no one on this planet can state with 100% certainty that there won't be long term issues with the vaccine (even if extremely unlikely).
I've had both mine, but I'm undoubtedly higher risk than someone in 20's/30's.
I'd say on balance you should get vaccinated, but it's not clear cut unless you are putting the health of others as the greater priority or at least equalish priority.
Generally our immune systems decline in effectiveness as we age, the older we are, the less able we are to resist infection.
You contracted covid and didn't suffer, bully for you. Unvaccinated your risk of becoming seriously ill from a subsequent covid infection is probably low, but there is negligible clinical evidence for this, only observation.
Your acquired immunity will decline over time. Vaccinated you will have clinically proven enhanced resistance to this infection. Much more importantly your body's enhanced immunity to this infection will drastically reduce your suitability as a host and vector for transmission.
How old are your grandparents, great-grandparents? Any of your relatives, friends or colleagues had or having cancer treatment?
Anybody in your circle got any immune condition or on immune suppressing medication?
The chances of the vaccine being harmful to you are statistically around 1 in a million and practically probably lower.
COvid was causing death or life changing harm in as much as 1 in 7 cases at its peak - predominantly in unprotected patients.
Are you prepared to risk exposing anybody who can't be protected because you're 'not convinced' you benefit personally? To say nothing of the risks to those around you whose immunity is declining.
Is your casual conviction more important to you than the health of your Nan, for example?