We can only hope that the U.K. can, within a few months, be held up as a good example of taking the vaccine and that some of the anti-vax countries do a u-turn.
Thankyou for answering my question as to whether you use a microwave. You told us in your post that you do not. I asked because my sister in law is also a vaccine sceptic and subscribes to pretty much every conspiracy theory out there including 9/11 and that the school shootings in the USA are not true and those shown as grieving friends and parents are paid actors. With regards to the use of microwaves I would be fascinated to learn why not. Do you have any science in your background ? You do know that microwaves are just part of the electromagnetic spectrum. High energy radio waves. All perfectly natural and no more of a mystery than white light or X-rays. When you turn off the microwave oven the microwaves stop just in the same way that when you turn off a light switch the light goes out. The microwaves themselves just agitate the food molecules causing them to heat up. Cooking or heating the food. There are no microwaves residual within the food or measurable within the appliance. That’s a simple science lesson and one that for the life of me I can’t fathom why anyone would be sceptical of it. I’m hoping you can explain because I can’t get a sensible answer from my sister in law. I’m assuming that you don’t subscribe to the other stuff she does although not believing that India is not still in the grip of a Covid crisis is a bit strange to me. I hope you take this post as a genuine enquiry and not as some criticism because I am fascinated by this.
Your sister in law doesn't believe the school shootings are real? That's up there with someone telling me that planes didn't fly into the WTC, it was all done with CGI. It's amazing how some apparently intelligent people can also be so incredibly thick.
Thankyou for answering my question as to whether you use a microwave. You told us in your post that you do not. I asked because my sister in law is also a vaccine sceptic and subscribes to pretty much every conspiracy theory out there including 9/11 and that the school shootings in the USA are not true and those shown as grieving friends and parents are paid actors. With regards to the use of microwaves I would be fascinated to learn why not. Do you have any science in your background ? You do know that microwaves are just part of the electromagnetic spectrum. High energy radio waves. All perfectly natural and no more of a mystery than white light or X-rays. When you turn off the microwave oven the microwaves stop just in the same way that when you turn off a light switch the light goes out. The microwaves themselves just agitate the food molecules causing them to heat up. Cooking or heating the food. There are no microwaves residual within the food or measurable within the appliance. That’s a simple science lesson and one that for the life of me I can’t fathom why anyone would be sceptical of it. I’m hoping you can explain because I can’t get a sensible answer from my sister in law. I’m assuming that you don’t subscribe to the other stuff she does although not believing that India is not still in the grip of a Covid crisis is a bit strange to me. I hope you take this post as a genuine enquiry and not as some criticism because I am fascinated by this.
Your sister in law doesn't believe the school shootings are real? That's up there with someone telling me that planes didn't fly into the WTC, it was all done with CGI. It's amazing how some apparently intelligent people can also be so incredibly thick.
To be fair, you have no idea if his sister in law is indeed apparently intelligent, or whether she eats mud and licks her own eyeballs...
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise). I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Both my Mum and my daughter who are highly vulnerable caught Covid after having the vaccine but showed next to no symptoms - showed to me that the vaccine reduces the risk. I imagine both of them would have been seriously ill without the vaccine.
Thankyou for answering my question as to whether you use a microwave. You told us in your post that you do not. I asked because my sister in law is also a vaccine sceptic and subscribes to pretty much every conspiracy theory out there including 9/11 and that the school shootings in the USA are not true and those shown as grieving friends and parents are paid actors. With regards to the use of microwaves I would be fascinated to learn why not. Do you have any science in your background ? You do know that microwaves are just part of the electromagnetic spectrum. High energy radio waves. All perfectly natural and no more of a mystery than white light or X-rays. When you turn off the microwave oven the microwaves stop just in the same way that when you turn off a light switch the light goes out. The microwaves themselves just agitate the food molecules causing them to heat up. Cooking or heating the food. There are no microwaves residual within the food or measurable within the appliance. That’s a simple science lesson and one that for the life of me I can’t fathom why anyone would be sceptical of it. I’m hoping you can explain because I can’t get a sensible answer from my sister in law. I’m assuming that you don’t subscribe to the other stuff she does although not believing that India is not still in the grip of a Covid crisis is a bit strange to me. I hope you take this post as a genuine enquiry and not as some criticism because I am fascinated by this.
Point of information, @s@ShootersHillGuru, microwaves in a microwave oven agitate the oxygen-hydrogen bond in water (which may be in the food or surrounding it), not the molecules of the food itself.
Edit: having just looked this up to check I hadn't mis-remembered, the FDA agrees with me:
The oxygen/hydrogen bond is a molecule. Any bond between two or more different atoms is a molecule. If that oxygen/hydrogen molecule is within the “body” of the food then the microwaves are agitating a molecule within the food. Varying parts of a body are made up from various amounts of water. Roughly between 60 - 80% Mea Culpa for not adding that you could place a food within a body of water and achieve the same effect. Not heard an argument that water (H2O) when found within food is not classed as part of the food itself.
I was merely pointing out that the microwave doesn't work on the food molecules in general, which your OP implied, but on one particular thing. If we're splitting hairs, a bond isn't a molecule, it's part of a molecule.
"Don't be silly. Unvaccinated people who get covid will isolate for 10 days until they have antibodies and are no longer infectious. People like you who get vaccinated will often not have any symptoms, but will unknowingly get infected and unwittingly pass it on to the elderly and sick. You murderer....".
Yes Shooters, I was concerned by the TV coverage from India. The suffering was terrible. Three days ago I did a media search (mainly Google) to try to find out what the current situation is. Was it even worse? But it all seems to have gone quiet. Two friends of mine contacted their friends in India but they were fine and nothing going on in their cities. Weird. Re the Doctors; with all this false positive nonsense I'm guessing the Doctors found Covid in the system of the two old ladies that were sent to hospital with serious ailments. It beggars belief that Covid was given as the cause of death rather than pneumonia for example. The alarm bells went off in the old peoples home that I can assure you! Keston - what I wrote is absolutely true. I am concerned that people are now running around with stuff in their blood that may (or may not) harm them later on in life - I certainly hope not! We'll have to wait and see. That is the risk you take. Personally I live a healthy lifestyle, no booze, no meat (no microwave) lots of vitamins - boring I know but if I catch this virus then I am confident that my body will survive. When I stated this last year you all dissed me as a nutter. Well so be it, I am a Charlton fan after all, but importantly all my family are healthy and they have the same values as me. I have an open mind to these conspiracy theories. They seem far fetched to me. That someone could deliberately release a killer virus seems absurd but why are eminent scientists, including Nobel prize winners suddenly silenced when they object to government policy. Things like that bother me. I have recently started watching UK Column which takes a non-hysterical approach to these virus issues. It's worth a look if only to see the other side of things. Over and out I think.
The bits I've highlighted shows a fundamental lack of understanding of basic science.
In the case you've given the doctor likely decided that in their expert opinion what they were seeing was COVID induced pneumonia despite the negative test. In that case COVID would have been presented on the death certificate as one of a number of contributory factors rather than as main cause of death.
I've explained in great detail back when this debate was actually relevant, my missus (who has a masters in epidemiology since we are throwing around qualifications) was involved in setting up the reporting, collating and data publishing system if covid deaths at the start of the first wave. She is confident that the system works. You can question the definition of a COVID death and what should or shouldn't be included as a death but there is no way that deaths are being put as covid for quick release of the body or any other ridiculous reason. Its not even possible unless you have a dodgy doctor.
None of this (or the crap about where the virus originated from) is actually relevant to your original assertion that the vaccine was killing people. Which given your lack of understanding of basic science I'm gonna go out on a limb and say is bullshit.
The trouble is a sector of the population seem to have given up on science and rely on half-baked anecdotes and conspiracy theories instead. Sadly their number seems to be growing.
But when they've caught COVID and shuffled off this mortal coil, their numbers will shrink.
Thankyou for answering my question as to whether you use a microwave. You told us in your post that you do not. I asked because my sister in law is also a vaccine sceptic and subscribes to pretty much every conspiracy theory out there including 9/11 and that the school shootings in the USA are not true and those shown as grieving friends and parents are paid actors. With regards to the use of microwaves I would be fascinated to learn why not. Do you have any science in your background ? You do know that microwaves are just part of the electromagnetic spectrum. High energy radio waves. All perfectly natural and no more of a mystery than white light or X-rays. When you turn off the microwave oven the microwaves stop just in the same way that when you turn off a light switch the light goes out. The microwaves themselves just agitate the food molecules causing them to heat up. Cooking or heating the food. There are no microwaves residual within the food or measurable within the appliance. That’s a simple science lesson and one that for the life of me I can’t fathom why anyone would be sceptical of it. I’m hoping you can explain because I can’t get a sensible answer from my sister in law. I’m assuming that you don’t subscribe to the other stuff she does although not believing that India is not still in the grip of a Covid crisis is a bit strange to me. I hope you take this post as a genuine enquiry and not as some criticism because I am fascinated by this.
Your sister in law doesn't believe the school shootings are real? That's up there with someone telling me that planes didn't fly into the WTC, it was all done with CGI. It's amazing how some apparently intelligent people can also be so incredibly thick.
To be fair, you have no idea if his sister in law is indeed apparently intelligent, or whether she eats mud and licks her own eyeballs...
I wouldn’t say she the sharpest chisel in the set but she’s not what I would call a complete idiot. Bang average would be my assessment. Scary isn’t it.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment?
You don't know who is vaccinated obviously - not all vulnerable people have been. It's also a bit of a lottery if you catch it as you don't know how you will react.
The responsible thing is to have the vaccine and I'm sure you know that.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
You are certainly in a low risk group. No question but you should in my opinion take the vaccine. We are certain that over months the antibodies you have from your having had Covid will diminish. That’s not to say that other parts of your immune system, the T cells, B cells and Killer cells will not be functioning but because not enough time has elapsed we just don’t know that for certain. In my opinion I believe those parts of immunity will last many years but we don’t know. Still low risk ? Certainly but you will leave yourself more open to having the virus again and although you might not even know you have it you could be shedding to others more vulnerable than you. Not even taking the vaccine might stop re infections but it might reduce your viral load and therefore your ability to shed the virus. The only way this pandemic is defeated is by using every tool in the box to reduce transmission. By you, even in your low risk category taking the vaccine you are being a very tiny part in a very big but important cog in saving lives. In my opinion and that’s all it is, we have a responsibility and duty to get vaccinated. I suppose you could add that international travel will be seriously curtailed for you for many years if you cannot prove you’ve had both doses.
Thankyou for answering my question as to whether you use a microwave. You told us in your post that you do not. I asked because my sister in law is also a vaccine sceptic and subscribes to pretty much every conspiracy theory out there including 9/11 and that the school shootings in the USA are not true and those shown as grieving friends and parents are paid actors. With regards to the use of microwaves I would be fascinated to learn why not. Do you have any science in your background ? You do know that microwaves are just part of the electromagnetic spectrum. High energy radio waves. All perfectly natural and no more of a mystery than white light or X-rays. When you turn off the microwave oven the microwaves stop just in the same way that when you turn off a light switch the light goes out. The microwaves themselves just agitate the food molecules causing them to heat up. Cooking or heating the food. There are no microwaves residual within the food or measurable within the appliance. That’s a simple science lesson and one that for the life of me I can’t fathom why anyone would be sceptical of it. I’m hoping you can explain because I can’t get a sensible answer from my sister in law. I’m assuming that you don’t subscribe to the other stuff she does although not believing that India is not still in the grip of a Covid crisis is a bit strange to me. I hope you take this post as a genuine enquiry and not as some criticism because I am fascinated by this.
Point of information, @s@ShootersHillGuru, microwaves in a microwave oven agitate the oxygen-hydrogen bond in water (which may be in the food or surrounding it), not the molecules of the food itself.
Edit: having just looked this up to check I hadn't mis-remembered, the FDA agrees with me:
The oxygen/hydrogen bond is a molecule. Any bond between two or more different atoms is a molecule. If that oxygen/hydrogen molecule is within the “body” of the food then the microwaves are agitating a molecule within the food. Varying parts of a body are made up from various amounts of water. Roughly between 60 - 80% Mea Culpa for not adding that you could place a food within a body of water and achieve the same effect. Not heard an argument that water (H2O) when found within food is not classed as part of the food itself.
I was merely pointing out that the microwave doesn't work on the food molecules in general, which your OP implied, but on one particular thing. If we're splitting hairs, a bond isn't a molecule, it's part of a molecule.
Let’s split hairs. Water is without question part of the food. You might just as well say that the minerals and other elements found within the food are not part of it. In respect of for example a steak which is muscle it’s probably around 70% plus water. It was higher in the alive animal but I’m assuming it’s lost some moisture in processing. Even the bone contains water. Can’t remember how much but it’s above 25%. A bond in the terms we’re talking about is two atoms that join. That’s exactly what I said. In the case of water it’s two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen. That bond forms a molecule of water.
You are certainly in a low risk group. No question but you should in my opinion take the vaccine. We are certain that over months the antibodies you have from your having had Covid will diminish. That’s not to say that other parts of your immune system, the T cells, B cells and Killer cells will not be functioning but because not enough time has elapsed we just don’t know that for certain. In my opinion I believe those parts of immunity will last many years but we don’t know. Still low risk ? Certainly but you will leave yourself more open to having the virus again and although you might not even know you have it you could be shedding to others more vulnerable than you. Not even taking the vaccine might stop re infections but it might reduce your viral load and therefore your ability to shed the virus. The only way this pandemic is defeated is by using every tool in the box to reduce transmission. By you, even in your low risk category taking the vaccine you are being a very tiny part in a very big but important cog in saving lives. In my opinion and that’s all it is, we have a responsibility and duty to get vaccinated. I suppose you could add that international travel will be seriously curtailed for you for many years if you cannot prove you’ve had both doses.
Thanks for response. This still doesn't seem particularly convincing to me - and by the way I'm just playing devil's advocate to an extent here, because I am booked in to get it tomorrow.
If it's accepted pretty much that I'm incredibly low risk of the virus, then it's the point about shedding to others more vulnerable - again most/all of whom should now have had it, or if they haven't they have chosen not to have it? And in that case should somebody who doesn't need the vaccine (i.e. me in theory) be vaccinated to protect somebody who is unwilling to have it to protect themselves?
Other point is with this stuff - for example we just don't regarding functioning of parts of the immune system you mention because not enough time has elapsed. Is there not a comparable point regarding lack of time elapsed in terms of measurement of impacts both positive (in terms of longevity) and negative (possible side effects) of the vaccine?
Not criticising anything you say and a very measured and honest appraisal from you - and it seems so to me because it doesn't actually still show in my view a compelling case for those in a similar position to me for having the vaccine - especially if it is accepted that there could be possible side effects from it? How confident are we that there are no longer term side effects of vaccine? Not saying there are at all and don't expect there to be.
But like you say, international travel seems to me to be the biggest factor for somebody young and healthy and that shouldn't really by why somebody would be having the vaccine!
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
Well I haven't read the first 74 pages, but my response to your comment is essentially the same as the response to Suzi. Suzi's suggestion which I'm not criticising, just challenging, is that I should be having the vaccine to protect others who might get seriously ill or die from it - but all of those should already have been vaccinated, so I'm not sure that's actually a convincing answer.
Thankyou for answering my question as to whether you use a microwave. You told us in your post that you do not. I asked because my sister in law is also a vaccine sceptic and subscribes to pretty much every conspiracy theory out there including 9/11 and that the school shootings in the USA are not true and those shown as grieving friends and parents are paid actors. With regards to the use of microwaves I would be fascinated to learn why not. Do you have any science in your background ? You do know that microwaves are just part of the electromagnetic spectrum. High energy radio waves. All perfectly natural and no more of a mystery than white light or X-rays. When you turn off the microwave oven the microwaves stop just in the same way that when you turn off a light switch the light goes out. The microwaves themselves just agitate the food molecules causing them to heat up. Cooking or heating the food. There are no microwaves residual within the food or measurable within the appliance. That’s a simple science lesson and one that for the life of me I can’t fathom why anyone would be sceptical of it. I’m hoping you can explain because I can’t get a sensible answer from my sister in law. I’m assuming that you don’t subscribe to the other stuff she does although not believing that India is not still in the grip of a Covid crisis is a bit strange to me. I hope you take this post as a genuine enquiry and not as some criticism because I am fascinated by this.
Your sister in law doesn't believe the school shootings are real? That's up there with someone telling me that planes didn't fly into the WTC, it was all done with CGI. It's amazing how some apparently intelligent people can also be so incredibly thick.
I suspect the key word in your statement is apparently. That word explains why it isn't so amazing.
You are certainly in a low risk group. No question but you should in my opinion take the vaccine. We are certain that over months the antibodies you have from your having had Covid will diminish. That’s not to say that other parts of your immune system, the T cells, B cells and Killer cells will not be functioning but because not enough time has elapsed we just don’t know that for certain. In my opinion I believe those parts of immunity will last many years but we don’t know. Still low risk ? Certainly but you will leave yourself more open to having the virus again and although you might not even know you have it you could be shedding to others more vulnerable than you. Not even taking the vaccine might stop re infections but it might reduce your viral load and therefore your ability to shed the virus. The only way this pandemic is defeated is by using every tool in the box to reduce transmission. By you, even in your low risk category taking the vaccine you are being a very tiny part in a very big but important cog in saving lives. In my opinion and that’s all it is, we have a responsibility and duty to get vaccinated. I suppose you could add that international travel will be seriously curtailed for you for many years if you cannot prove you’ve had both doses.
Thanks for response. This still doesn't seem particularly convincing to me - and by the way I'm just playing devil's advocate to an extent here, because I am booked in to get it tomorrow.
If it's accepted pretty much that I'm incredibly low risk of the virus, then it's the point about shedding to others more vulnerable - again most/all of whom should now have had it, or if they haven't they have chosen not to have it? And in that case should somebody who doesn't need the vaccine (i.e. me in theory) be vaccinated to protect somebody who is unwilling to have it to protect themselves?
Other point is with this stuff - for example we just don't regarding functioning of parts of the immune system you mention because not enough time has elapsed. Is there not a comparable point regarding lack of time elapsed in terms of measurement of impacts both positive (in terms of longevity) and negative (possible side effects) of the vaccine?
Not criticising anything you say and a very measured and honest appraisal from you - and it seems so to me because it doesn't actually still show in my view a compelling case for those in a similar position to me for having the vaccine - especially if it is accepted that there could be possible side effects from it? How confident are we that there are no longer term side effects of vaccine? Not saying there are at all and don't expect there to be.
But like you say, international travel seems to me to be the biggest factor for somebody young and healthy and that shouldn't really by why somebody would be having the vaccine!
The vaccine offers us two benefits. Firstly an individual one where people are offered protection from contracting Covid. Of course they don't register on headlines but I know of younger people who have developed long Covid and if you consider that a side effect, it isn't a pleasant one. Secondly, it is a collective benefit, but one that ultimately feeds into an individual one too. We are seeing the vaccine is effective in supressing transmission of the virus and there is a point where it will be incredibly effective. This requires a percentage of the population, local and Global to be vaccinated and it is ultimately the pathway out of this nightmare.
Of course people can leave it to the rest of us to be part of that percentage, whether it turns out to be 70%, 75%, 80% whatever but we may not be able to achieve it collectively if too many do. Take up is high in this country in relation to a lot of other countries but if people haven't been paying attention since the beginning of last year, what hope is there? We probably would all be speaking German if people took the attitude in the war not to do their bit in the fight against the Nazis. Doing your bit today means taking an extremely safe vaccine that is so much safer than contracting the virus whatever your age.
I had my second dose and am happy to report not even a mild side effect since then. Those people I know who have taken it only report mild and short term ones ranging from a day or two to a couple of hours.
You are certainly in a low risk group. No question but you should in my opinion take the vaccine. We are certain that over months the antibodies you have from your having had Covid will diminish. That’s not to say that other parts of your immune system, the T cells, B cells and Killer cells will not be functioning but because not enough time has elapsed we just don’t know that for certain. In my opinion I believe those parts of immunity will last many years but we don’t know. Still low risk ? Certainly but you will leave yourself more open to having the virus again and although you might not even know you have it you could be shedding to others more vulnerable than you. Not even taking the vaccine might stop re infections but it might reduce your viral load and therefore your ability to shed the virus. The only way this pandemic is defeated is by using every tool in the box to reduce transmission. By you, even in your low risk category taking the vaccine you are being a very tiny part in a very big but important cog in saving lives. In my opinion and that’s all it is, we have a responsibility and duty to get vaccinated. I suppose you could add that international travel will be seriously curtailed for you for many years if you cannot prove you’ve had both doses.
Thanks for response. This still doesn't seem particularly convincing to me - and by the way I'm just playing devil's advocate to an extent here, because I am booked in to get it tomorrow.
If it's accepted pretty much that I'm incredibly low risk of the virus, then it's the point about shedding to others more vulnerable - again most/all of whom should now have had it, or if they haven't they have chosen not to have it? And in that case should somebody who doesn't need the vaccine (i.e. me in theory) be vaccinated to protect somebody who is unwilling to have it to protect themselves?
Other point is with this stuff - for example we just don't regarding functioning of parts of the immune system you mention because not enough time has elapsed. Is there not a comparable point regarding lack of time elapsed in terms of measurement of impacts both positive (in terms of longevity) and negative (possible side effects) of the vaccine?
Not criticising anything you say and a very measured and honest appraisal from you - and it seems so to me because it doesn't actually still show in my view a compelling case for those in a similar position to me for having the vaccine - especially if it is accepted that there could be possible side effects from it? How confident are we that there are no longer term side effects of vaccine? Not saying there are at all and don't expect there to be.
But like you say, international travel seems to me to be the biggest factor for somebody young and healthy and that shouldn't really by why somebody would be having the vaccine!
There will be some people in the community who for various reasons can’t take the vaccine. There will be people out there who have had both shots but for medical reasons could still be at risk if they were to contract Covid. No vaccine is 100% effective. There will be people who have had both shots who are in a small but still highly vulnerable group because they are non responders to the vaccines. By way of an example, during my NHS career I was offered a vaccination against Hepatitis B. A quite nasty blood born virus and I worked in a job where I routinely came into contact with blood. Not once in my career after numerous jabs did I ever respond to Hep B vaccine. Then there are of course those misguided enough to reject the vaccine. Why bother thinking about their wellbeing ? It’s because of all of the above. They would be spreaders and some will become ill and die. I don’t think any of us want to see that regardless of their views. The more the virus has the opportunity to spread the more it has the opportunity to mutate into a variant we don’t have such good protection against. It’s a very big worldwide picture and I think we should all play our minuscule role in preventing deaths and serious illness.
You are certainly in a low risk group. No question but you should in my opinion take the vaccine. We are certain that over months the antibodies you have from your having had Covid will diminish. That’s not to say that other parts of your immune system, the T cells, B cells and Killer cells will not be functioning but because not enough time has elapsed we just don’t know that for certain. In my opinion I believe those parts of immunity will last many years but we don’t know. Still low risk ? Certainly but you will leave yourself more open to having the virus again and although you might not even know you have it you could be shedding to others more vulnerable than you. Not even taking the vaccine might stop re infections but it might reduce your viral load and therefore your ability to shed the virus. The only way this pandemic is defeated is by using every tool in the box to reduce transmission. By you, even in your low risk category taking the vaccine you are being a very tiny part in a very big but important cog in saving lives. In my opinion and that’s all it is, we have a responsibility and duty to get vaccinated. I suppose you could add that international travel will be seriously curtailed for you for many years if you cannot prove you’ve had both doses.
Thanks for response. This still doesn't seem particularly convincing to me - and by the way I'm just playing devil's advocate to an extent here, because I am booked in to get it tomorrow.
If it's accepted pretty much that I'm incredibly low risk of the virus, then it's the point about shedding to others more vulnerable - again most/all of whom should now have had it, or if they haven't they have chosen not to have it? And in that case should somebody who doesn't need the vaccine (i.e. me in theory) be vaccinated to protect somebody who is unwilling to have it to protect themselves?
Other point is with this stuff - for example we just don't regarding functioning of parts of the immune system you mention because not enough time has elapsed. Is there not a comparable point regarding lack of time elapsed in terms of measurement of impacts both positive (in terms of longevity) and negative (possible side effects) of the vaccine?
Not criticising anything you say and a very measured and honest appraisal from you - and it seems so to me because it doesn't actually still show in my view a compelling case for those in a similar position to me for having the vaccine - especially if it is accepted that there could be possible side effects from it? How confident are we that there are no longer term side effects of vaccine? Not saying there are at all and don't expect there to be.
But like you say, international travel seems to me to be the biggest factor for somebody young and healthy and that shouldn't really by why somebody would be having the vaccine!
2 points.
1 - even if you've had it the vaccine is shown to give you more protection with every dose.
2 - the old/vulnerable with weaker immune systems are likely to be less protected and have that protection last a shorter period of time due to the strength (or lack thereof) of their immune system. So passing it to someone vulnerable is still possible (and possible likely as time goes on) even if they are vaccinated. So you want to reduce your chances of being able to pass it on as much as possible.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
Well I haven't read the first 74 pages, but my response to your comment is essentially the same as the response to Suzi. Suzi's suggestion which I'm not criticising, just challenging, is that I should be having the vaccine to protect others who might get seriously ill or die from it - but all of those should already have been vaccinated, so I'm not sure that's actually a convincing answer.
I've already said not all the vulnerable have been vaccinated and not all the vulnerable will be safe even if they have been vaccinated.
If people don't want to have the vaccine they won't and low vaccine uptake ultimately makes vaccine programs less effective.
There is a huge amount of information/evidence out there but invariably a lot of people will simply ignore it.
Just jumped on this thread for the first time - so apologies if this is all covered back in the pages and pages of this thread which no doubt it has been!
Got my vaccine booked for this Thursday and very likely cracking on with it.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
But I am every so slightly on the fence.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
From an individual perspective, I feel like there is an extremely low/ practically zero risk from covid for me - stats I think support that just based on age and healthy weight status etc, and then added to the fact I had the virus with no probs a few months ago I would guess I’m a good / Even better place for my body to fight it off with ease if it came round again.
Generally always followed medical / doctors advice etc without question, but also always been broadly encouraged, I believe rightly, to avoid medicine etc if not necessary. (Also had a number of family medical experiences which have not given me great faith / trust in all medical advice but putting that to one side)
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
Is it about - less cases equals less chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
I’m not anti vax as such and don’t really think there’s any likelihood of an issue from it - I’ve taken loads of travel vaccines etc before without batting an eyelid and people drink, take drugs and all sorts of other things with possibly side effects without a second thought. It’s only cos we’re being made to think about it that this is really coming up.
But on the flip side, I’m taking a vaccination which is new and not entirely known and that will probably make me feel shit for a day or two. In short I’m trying to find a compelling reason for me personally to be having it but what actually is that reason? In my view the covid risk to me is 0.1% and the vaccine risk + side effects Vs benefits (doesn’t actually even stop you getting it) probably amount to similar to that depending on how you look at it.
So why take something unnatural? Don’t think it makes sense for me solely as an individual. The greater good is fine if that’s the case but I’m not sure if there is a properly convincing argument as to how me taking it is doing greater good.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
Whatever the chances of you suffering in the future by the virus, by having the vaccine, you are reducing the chances of contracting it and passing it on to others that may be less 'fit' than you. Even if you've had it. The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on. the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise. I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
Again I get the theory but that doesn't still seem convincing to me - isn't the point that those people you refer to are all vaccinated so protected themselves, so in theory it wouldn't actually matter if I pass it on to them? Which is underlined by hoof it up to benty's comment? My parents are very old and vulnerable as I say, but I haven't worried about them recently even though I'm unvaccinated, because they're protected (I know it's not 100% protection, but very high).
Suzi has just offered you one of the calmest and well-written posts on this entire 75-page thread, if that reply hasn’t convinced you, then I have no idea what you’re expecting anyone to reply to your original post with.
Well I haven't read the first 74 pages, but my response to your comment is essentially the same as the response to Suzi. Suzi's suggestion which I'm not criticising, just challenging, is that I should be having the vaccine to protect others who might get seriously ill or die from it - but all of those should already have been vaccinated, so I'm not sure that's actually a convincing answer.
You don’t need to have read the previous pages, I’m telling you a fact that Suzi’s post is one of the best summaries of covid vaccination process.
As you’ve said the vaccination is not 100%, but does add protection to those taking it against the virus. The added protection bit is surely the part that convinces you though.
This isn’t a great analogy, but trying to think of something that will convince you after you’ve not accepted other great replies. If someone said you need to jump out of a plane, and you can either have a parachute or no parachute, which would you choose? Either way you’re jumping out of the plane, but one gives you some added protection.
Sensible points raised above, to a sensible original post. Who on Earth would have thought that was possible?
Should bookmark pages 75 and 76 of this thread for the tinfoil hat nutters - if they can't figure it out after reading through these, there's no hope for them.
This discussion does raise a serious debate - isn't it about time that vaccination was given a bigger focus in the Science syllabus? I know that Science education at GCSE level in this country is dreadful (which makes the fact we excel at it at degree level and beyond even more remarkable) - but surely something a bit more than the derisory half a lesson I think I got on it (and I took double science at GCSE) is appropriate now?
Cheers Shooters. This is free speech as it should be. I doubt if the Chinese government will ever admit there was a leak. But, for sure I will not swallow the given story about wet markets and eating bats. I am surprised that you are in total denial about normal deaths being attributed to Covid. I have at least ten different sources giving me apparent facts and this is not me seeking them out, they just pop up in general conversation. One close to hand is from my 93 year old mother who lives in an independent care home. She is the only unvaccinated and very healthy resident in her building (Several carers have refused the jab). So, her two next door neighbours were admitted to hospital before Christmas. One with a severe respiratory condition and the other with pneumonia. Both, as is my mum, were regularly tested for Covid-19 in the care home. They were in hospital for about three weeks and both died. Everyone in the care home was shocked to hear that Covid-19 was given as the cause of death when they were clearly really suffering with their given conditions. Last week my 'roofer' (we're getting our soffics done), who has had one jab, told me about his friend who died hours after getting his jab. He is now too scared to have his second jab and is a tough gypsy type of bloke. I'll not bore you with more scenarios but just to reaffirm that personally I have no fear of Covid itself but have rather a horror at the current agenda of coercion to mass vaccinate humanity with unlicensed and experimental ‘medicine’ for something that 99.7 % of people would recover from and thereby develop their own immunity to.
Frankly, I find it bizarre and at the same time hilarious that someone undertaking the second most dangerous job (after tree surgeon) in the UK should be scared of having a vaccine.
Sensible points raised above, to a sensible original post. Who on Earth would have thought that was possible?
Should bookmark pages 75 and 76 of this thread for the tinfoil hat nutters - if they can't figure it out after reading through these, there's no hope for them.
This discussion does raise a serious debate - isn't it about time that vaccination was given a bigger focus in the Science syllabus? I know that Science education at GCSE level in this country is dreadful (which makes the fact we excel at it at degree level and beyond even more remarkable) - but surely something a bit more than the derisory half a lesson I think I got on it (and I took double science at GCSE) is appropriate now?
Do they not teach each science as separate subject any more? When I was at school Biology, Human Biology, Chemistry and Physics were all taught as separate 'O' level subjects.
Comments
It's amazing how some apparently intelligent people can also be so incredibly thick.
Not done any specific reading or certainly googling at all, so not read any conspiracy theories or considered much beyond casual discussions with a few mates most of whom on the whole arent particularly opinionated on it either way.
I’m 34 years of age. Fit and healthy as far as I know, healthy weight lots of exercise decent enough diet etc etc. Had covid 5 months ago, which passed no panic.
So from a purely individual perspective I don’t really see any reason for me to actually get the vaccine - Covid is all a numbers game and I think the risk to me of anything vaguely problematic , even ‘long Covid’ is extremely, extremely low.
On that basis, my mindset is I should probably take it for the ‘greater good’ - but what actually is the logic on that?
If most people especially those who are older or vulnerable to covid for other reasons such as diabetes and asthma have taken it, surely they are all broadly protected and therefore shouldn’t really be in danger even if somebody like me manages to contract the virus (hopefully quite unlikely in itself it the vaccine succeeds in helping to reduce spreadability which you would hope but I think is a bit of an unknown). My parents for example are older and with health conditions, but have been vaccinated.
I know the idea is to keep it from circulating in general and I also know people hate the flu comparison (this is NOT a normal flu!! Etc etc). But obviously the vulnerable / elderly are vaccinated every year against flu as they’re at risk but healthy 34 year olds aren’t and are allowed to tear round pubs trains clubs football stadia spreading it around as they’re not at risk of it being any sort of problem.
chance of mutations etc etc? Which again there is obviously a logic to and I get that logic - but on the other hand, how likely is that in reality? Decades and lifetimes have raced by before covid suddenly popped up - how likely is it that it will suddenly now immediately turn into a way more deadly one? Again, I get there is a scientific possibility but if we were looking at odds - which this whole thing is about - is it really likely? And even if it is, given its spreading around the world and entering our country regardless and will never disappear either worldwide or in the UK, is it even worth trying to bother keeping levels very low rather than low.
not after an argument or a condescending lecture!
The vaccine not only reduces your symptoms should you catch it, it reduces your chances of catching it unknowingly, plus also the chances of passing it on.
the way i see it, how would you feel if you didn't have the vaccine, didn't know you were carrying the virus and passed it on to a family member or friend that went on to get seriously ill or die. I can't live knowing about that risk. Although I hate putting chemicals in my body, don't even like taking paracetamol, i feel we morally shouldn't have a choice re the vaccine and should see it as a privilege to protect others not a choice to protect ourselves. (same with masks really but have learnt a while ago that people can be and are very selfish still believing it's themselves they are protecting wearing one and the 'i'm alright jack attitude' is one I despise).
I do still have tons of questions around complacency and the lateral flow testing, that I feel isn't encouraged as much as it should be, but as i know 2 people who contracted the virus post vaccine, it's highlighted to me the need to do lateral flow tests regularly just to double check even if the risk is reducing by the week.
"Don't be silly. Unvaccinated people who get covid will isolate for 10 days until they have antibodies and are no longer infectious. People like you who get vaccinated will often not have any symptoms, but will unknowingly get infected and unwittingly pass it on to the elderly and sick. You murderer....".
Sigh.
Hopefully.
https://www.boredpanda.com/subway-corona-masks-pics/?utm_source=pinterest&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=atixc
The responsible thing is to have the vaccine and I'm sure you know that.
@paulsturgess
You are certainly in a low risk group. No question but you should in my opinion take the vaccine. We are certain that over months the antibodies you have from your having had Covid will diminish. That’s not to say that other parts of your immune system, the T cells, B cells and Killer cells will not be functioning but because not enough time has elapsed we just don’t know that for certain. In my opinion I believe those parts of immunity will last many years but we don’t know. Still low risk ? Certainly but you will leave yourself more open to having the virus again and although you might not even know you have it you could be shedding to others more vulnerable than you. Not even taking the vaccine might stop re infections but it might reduce your viral load and therefore your ability to shed the virus. The only way this pandemic is defeated is by using every tool in the box to reduce transmission. By you, even in your low risk category taking the vaccine you are being a very tiny part in a very big but important cog in saving lives. In my opinion and that’s all it is, we have a responsibility and duty to get vaccinated. I suppose you could add that international travel will be seriously curtailed for you for many years if you cannot prove you’ve had both doses.
If it's accepted pretty much that I'm incredibly low risk of the virus, then it's the point about shedding to others more vulnerable - again most/all of whom should now have had it, or if they haven't they have chosen not to have it? And in that case should somebody who doesn't need the vaccine (i.e. me in theory) be vaccinated to protect somebody who is unwilling to have it to protect themselves?
Other point is with this stuff - for example we just don't regarding functioning of parts of the immune system you mention because not enough time has elapsed. Is there not a comparable point regarding lack of time elapsed in terms of measurement of impacts both positive (in terms of longevity) and negative (possible side effects) of the vaccine?
Not criticising anything you say and a very measured and honest appraisal from you - and it seems so to me because it doesn't actually still show in my view a compelling case for those in a similar position to me for having the vaccine - especially if it is accepted that there could be possible side effects from it? How confident are we that there are no longer term side effects of vaccine? Not saying there are at all and don't expect there to be.
But like you say, international travel seems to me to be the biggest factor for somebody young and healthy and that shouldn't really by why somebody would be having the vaccine!
Of course people can leave it to the rest of us to be part of that percentage, whether it turns out to be 70%, 75%, 80% whatever but we may not be able to achieve it collectively if too many do. Take up is high in this country in relation to a lot of other countries but if people haven't been paying attention since the beginning of last year, what hope is there? We probably would all be speaking German if people took the attitude in the war not to do their bit in the fight against the Nazis. Doing your bit today means taking an extremely safe vaccine that is so much safer than contracting the virus whatever your age.
I had my second dose and am happy to report not even a mild side effect since then. Those people I know who have taken it only report mild and short term ones ranging from a day or two to a couple of hours.
1 - even if you've had it the vaccine is shown to give you more protection with every dose.
2 - the old/vulnerable with weaker immune systems are likely to be less protected and have that protection last a shorter period of time due to the strength (or lack thereof) of their immune system. So passing it to someone vulnerable is still possible (and possible likely as time goes on) even if they are vaccinated. So you want to reduce your chances of being able to pass it on as much as possible.
Mind if I ask you a quick question? Who would you prefer to be sat next to in a cinema, someone who has been vaccinated, or someone who hasn't?
If people don't want to have the vaccine they won't and low vaccine uptake ultimately makes vaccine programs less effective.
There is a huge amount of information/evidence out there but invariably a lot of people will simply ignore it.
Worst thing that'll happen if you take the vaccine is you MIGHT feel a bit groggy for a bit. Best case scenario you could be preventing someone from getting seriously ill or even saving their life.
Should bookmark pages 75 and 76 of this thread for the tinfoil hat nutters - if they can't figure it out after reading through these, there's no hope for them.
This discussion does raise a serious debate - isn't it about time that vaccination was given a bigger focus in the Science syllabus? I know that Science education at GCSE level in this country is dreadful (which makes the fact we excel at it at degree level and beyond even more remarkable) - but surely something a bit more than the derisory half a lesson I think I got on it (and I took double science at GCSE) is appropriate now?