Can’t really fathom how anyone could be offended by who another person is attracted to. One of life’s real bafflers.
A lot of religious people seem to have a huge problem....
That’s arguably the greatest baffler of all, how so many people are taken in by and live their lives by, a notion of an imaginary sky fairy (of any persuasion).
I detest these twats. Anyone with a problem with who someone else wants to love needs a fucking good shoeing. And as for bothering to go on Zoom and abuse people it beggars belief or goes to show you how bored people are in lockdown. Some. Of the best and funniest people I know are gay. Some of the best clubs I have ever been to are gay. Get a grip ya fucking dinosaurs.
Of course it isn't all religious people, it tends to be the more fundamental ones. I'm not sure what you can do about these people as they live their lives as if everything in the bible should be taken literally. However, it sounds like the people who broke up this meeting may not be religious, rather they seem to be total cnuts. They should absolutely be tracked if possible and face the full force of the law.
I have been very impressed by the club's activity in this area and communication over recent weeks, which has highlighted work I was not previously so familiar with.
It's really good to see issues of diversity, inclusion and equality taken so seriously by CAFC at all levels. And it appears the new ownership wants to promote this sort of thing much more - as another example the acquisition of the women's team.
Can only help rebuild and sustain Charlton as a club in the widest sense.
I truly hope not was not Charlton fans who did this at Proud Valiants’ event, but whether it was or not it is despicable behaviour. I'm heartened, nevertheless, by the contributions to this thread.
Compare to a discussion topic elsewhere, but not so far away geographically...
Of course it isn't all religious people, it tends to be the more fundamental ones. I'm not sure what you can do about these people as they live their lives as if everything in the bible should be taken literally. However, it sounds like the people who broke up this meeting may not be religious, rather they seem to be total cnuts. They should absolutely be tracked if possible and face the full force of the law.
Far be it for me to defend religious people as I am certainly not in that camp, but I think it’s a bit simplistic to say homophobia is a “fundamental religion” issue. (This isn’t aimed directly at you @MuttleyCAFC but yours was simply the most recent post discussing religion!)
From my own perspective, growing up in the 70s and 80s, there was a lot of homophobic language knocking about and some of it was pretty vicious. This includes other school kids, neighbours and, to my shame, some family members. I expect a few posters on here can relate. A lot of people who seemed particularly angry or disgusted about gay people were not, as far as I can tell, religious at all. I certainly think there’s an element of working class pride at play - Illustrated by the fact that as soon as someone male (in real life or even on telly) spoke ‘nicely’, they were immediately under suspicion of being gay.
Don’t get me wrong, religious nutjobs are a major player in the business of persecuting LGBTQ people, but there are plenty more who hold these prejudices for various other reasons.
I remember when i ran a dog training class I had both male and female gay couples in attendance, one particular day I was asked by someone if I thought it was ok if one of the dogs attended as she’d come into season, knowing that two male dogs were absent I said yes. Halfway through the class the lady with one of the males turned up! Keeping all the dogs on leads to complete the lesson the young adolescent took absolutely no notice of the female at all. As we stood and chatted I said “how strange a male that doesn’t like females” I was fecking mortified and apologised immediately, both gents laughed more at my embarrassment than what I’d said and we hugged before they left, to abuse anyone is bad enough but because of sexuality or skin colour makes me feel ill.
Slightly off topic, and I apologise for this, but may I ask a serious question ?
It's something that has intrigued me for years, and I don't know why.
As a heterosexual male, with no discriminatory thoughts towards any creed, race, religion or beliefs, why do I wonder who will be the first "gay" footballer (Justin Fashanu accepted) to "come out" ?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, it reminds me of when Max Rushden had a brilliant interview when he was asking what words are acceptable to black people; sometimes, by trying not to say the wrong thing you say another wrong thing totally innocently.
I have been very impressed by the club's activity in this area and communication over recent weeks, which has highlighted work I was not previously so familiar with.
It's really good to see issues of diversity, inclusion and equality taken so seriously by CAFC at all levels. And it appears the new ownership wants to promote this sort of thing much more - as another example the acquisition of the women's team.
This sort of thing can only help rebuild and sustain Charlton as a club in the widest sense.
I truly hope not was not Charlton fans who did this at Proud Valiants’ event, but whether it was or not it is despicable behaviour. I'm heartened, nevertheless, by the contributions to this thread.
Compare to a discussion topic elsewhere, but not so far away geographically...
How do the moderators there allow some of these posts to stay up?
Just read that load of utter shyte.....painful to believe that there are still people around who spout this stuff. Millwall supporters to an absolute tee.
”Man will always condemn in others that which he most fears in himself.”
I have been very impressed by the club's activity in this area and communication over recent weeks, which has highlighted work I was not previously so familiar with.
It's really good to see issues of diversity, inclusion and equality taken so seriously by CAFC at all levels. And it appears the new ownership wants to promote this sort of thing much more - as another example the acquisition of the women's team.
This sort of thing can only help rebuild and sustain Charlton as a club in the widest sense.
I truly hope not was not Charlton fans who did this at Proud Valiants’ event, but whether it was or not it is despicable behaviour. I'm heartened, nevertheless, by the contributions to this thread.
Compare to a discussion topic elsewhere, but not so far away geographically...
How do the moderators there allow some of these posts to stay up?
Just read that load of utter shyte.....painful to believe that there are still people around who spout this stuff. Millwall supporters to an absolute tee.
”Man will always condemn in others that which he most fears in himself.”
Looks like they've taken the thread down (hopefully) or made it members only. You only have to read the title to work out where it was headed. There was some really vile stuff on there. Disgusting.
I have been very impressed by the club's activity in this area and communication over recent weeks, which has highlighted work I was not previously so familiar with.
It's really good to see issues of diversity, inclusion and equality taken so seriously by CAFC at all levels. And it appears the new ownership wants to promote this sort of thing much more - as another example the acquisition of the women's team.
This sort of thing can only help rebuild and sustain Charlton as a club in the widest sense.
I truly hope not was not Charlton fans who did this at Proud Valiants’ event, but whether it was or not it is despicable behaviour. I'm heartened, nevertheless, by the contributions to this thread.
Compare to a discussion topic elsewhere, but not so far away geographically...
How do the moderators there allow some of these posts to stay up?
Just read that load of utter shyte.....painful to believe that there are still people around who spout this stuff. Millwall supporters to an absolute tee.
”Man will always condemn in others that which he most fears in himself.”
Looks like they've taken the thread down (hopefully) or made it members only. You only have to read the title to work out where it was headed. There was some really vile stuff on there. Disgusting.
Slightly off topic, and I apologise for this, but may I ask a serious question ?
It's something that has intrigued me for years, and I don't know why.
As a heterosexual male, with no discriminatory thoughts towards any creed, race, religion or beliefs, why do I wonder who will be the first "gay" footballer (Justin Fashanu accepted) to "come out" ?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, it reminds me of when Max Rushden had a brilliant interview when he was asking what words are acceptable to black people; sometimes, by trying not to say the wrong thing you say another wrong thing totally innocently.
Sorry, not good with words.
Stay safe.
The question you raise is a question of interest. I’m also a hetero male and yes, when a player comes out it will be of interest and may be an important watershed day, but although I hope to see someone come out soon, it can’t be rushed because it has to be right for them. Thomas Hitzlsperger, you may remember, came out just after retiring. One of the really great things about LGBTQ people (not all, but certainly the vast majority) is that when somebody in the public eye “comes out”, there is generally very little criticism aimed at them for not coming out sooner or even at all. This is actually really important, because everyone weighing up whether or not to come out has their own personal circumstances, pressures, worries, insecurities, families etc etc - and LGBTQ people generally understand and appreciate that.
We see proactive efforts in football to eradicate homophobia and that’s to be applauded and you have to assume it’s only a matter of time, but professional, male, team sports are extraordinarily old school macho environments - I’m sure lots of players are sympathetic and want to make things better, but I do wonder how many of these lads are fully behind it, regardless of the sound bites we hear from players in interviews.
I honestly expected more players to come out after Thomas Hitzlsperger did - If he’d come out while still playing there may have been more gay players follow suit - but Hitzlsperger can’t be blamed for that. I completely understand why he chose to wait - he may have felt he’d crumple under the pressure whether that be from the training ground, opposition, media or supporters.
What I really look forward to is a player in the Roy Keane, Dave Mackay type mold to come out - by that I mean a double hard bastard, couldn’t give a fuck what you think, revels in the hatred of opposition supporters type player. Someone who’d go into training the next day and dare his teammates to start on him. If someone like that comes out then we’ll have reached the watershed.
Slightly off topic, and I apologise for this, but may I ask a serious question ?
It's something that has intrigued me for years, and I don't know why.
As a heterosexual male, with no discriminatory thoughts towards any creed, race, religion or beliefs, why do I wonder who will be the first "gay" footballer (Justin Fashanu accepted) to "come out" ?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, it reminds me of when Max Rushden had a brilliant interview when he was asking what words are acceptable to black people; sometimes, by trying not to say the wrong thing you say another wrong thing totally innocently.
Sorry, not good with words.
Stay safe.
The question you raise is a question of interest. I’m also a hetero male and yes, when a player comes out it will be of interest and may be an important watershed day, but although I hope to see someone come out soon, it can’t be rushed because it has to be right for them. Thomas Hitzlsperger, you may remember, came out just after retiring. One of the really great things about LGBTQ people (not all, but certainly the vast majority) is that when somebody in the public eye “comes out”, there is generally very little criticism aimed at them for not coming out sooner or even at all. This is actually really important, because everyone weighing up whether or not to come out has their own personal circumstances, pressures, worries, insecurities, families etc etc - and LGBTQ people generally understand and appreciate that.
We see proactive efforts in football to eradicate homophobia and that’s to be applauded and you have to assume it’s only a matter of time, but professional, male, team sports are extraordinarily old school macho environments - I’m sure lots of players are sympathetic and want to make things better, but I do wonder how many of these lads are fully behind it, regardless of the sound bites we hear from players in interviews.
I honestly expected more players to come out after Thomas Hitzlsperger did - If he’d come out while still playing there may have been more gay players follow suit - but Hitzlsperger can’t be blamed for that. I completely understand why he chose to wait - he may have felt he’d crumple under the pressure whether that be from the training ground, opposition, media or supporters.
What I really look forward to is a player in the Roy Keane, Dave Mackay type mold to come out - by that I mean a double hard bastard, couldn’t give a fuck what you think, revels in the hatred of opposition supporters type player. Someone who’d go into training the next day and dare his teammates to start on him. If someone like that comes out then we’ll have reached the watershed.
Question for either or both of you, or for anyone else: why do you care? Indeed, why should anyone care whom anyone else sleeps with?
I note that you have both come out as heterosexual males, and I am glad you seem not to have faced any prejudice in that regard. But, why is it of interest to you whether a footballer also comes out?
(Obviously, I am asking this very much tongue in cheek; but it's a serious point. I hope that in the not-too-distant future, that there is absolutely no interest whatsoever in a footballer's sexuality).
Thank you for that, appreciate it. I agree 100% with what you say, I just wonder why only me/some/many people are interested in which footballers are gay. I have no idea, I know its easy for me to say now, but, hopefully, all people one day will be feel safe to be open and honest about their sexuality and religious beliefs without any prejudice or abuse. Stay safe.
Slightly off topic, and I apologise for this, but may I ask a serious question ?
It's something that has intrigued me for years, and I don't know why.
As a heterosexual male, with no discriminatory thoughts towards any creed, race, religion or beliefs, why do I wonder who will be the first "gay" footballer (Justin Fashanu accepted) to "come out" ?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, it reminds me of when Max Rushden had a brilliant interview when he was asking what words are acceptable to black people; sometimes, by trying not to say the wrong thing you say another wrong thing totally innocently.
Sorry, not good with words.
Stay safe.
The question you raise is a question of interest. I’m also a hetero male and yes, when a player comes out it will be of interest and may be an important watershed day, but although I hope to see someone come out soon, it can’t be rushed because it has to be right for them. Thomas Hitzlsperger, you may remember, came out just after retiring. One of the really great things about LGBTQ people (not all, but certainly the vast majority) is that when somebody in the public eye “comes out”, there is generally very little criticism aimed at them for not coming out sooner or even at all. This is actually really important, because everyone weighing up whether or not to come out has their own personal circumstances, pressures, worries, insecurities, families etc etc - and LGBTQ people generally understand and appreciate that.
We see proactive efforts in football to eradicate homophobia and that’s to be applauded and you have to assume it’s only a matter of time, but professional, male, team sports are extraordinarily old school macho environments - I’m sure lots of players are sympathetic and want to make things better, but I do wonder how many of these lads are fully behind it, regardless of the sound bites we hear from players in interviews.
I honestly expected more players to come out after Thomas Hitzlsperger did - If he’d come out while still playing there may have been more gay players follow suit - but Hitzlsperger can’t be blamed for that. I completely understand why he chose to wait - he may have felt he’d crumple under the pressure whether that be from the training ground, opposition, media or supporters.
What I really look forward to is a player in the Roy Keane, Dave Mackay type mold to come out - by that I mean a double hard bastard, couldn’t give a fuck what you think, revels in the hatred of opposition supporters type player. Someone who’d go into training the next day and dare his teammates to start on him. If someone like that comes out then we’ll have reached the watershed.
Question for either or both of you, or for anyone else: why do you care? Indeed, why should anyone care whom anyone else sleeps with?
I note that you have both come out as heterosexual males, and I am glad you seem not to have faced any prejudice in that regard. But, why is it of interest to you whether a footballer also comes out?
(Obviously, I am asking this very much tongue in cheek; but it's a serious point. I hope that in the not-too-distant future, that there is absolutely no interest whatsoever in a footballer's sexuality).
I know what you mean, but to answer the question: I care because the sooner a current footballer comes out, the sooner all those thousands of young LGBTQ people who love football have a role model they can relate to. The sooner one player comes out, more will come out and those same LGBTQ kids have more than one potential role model. Its not that I’m interested in the sexuality of someone or who they sleep with. I’m not. I’m just interested in the well-being of people.
Slightly off topic, and I apologise for this, but may I ask a serious question ?
It's something that has intrigued me for years, and I don't know why.
As a heterosexual male, with no discriminatory thoughts towards any creed, race, religion or beliefs, why do I wonder who will be the first "gay" footballer (Justin Fashanu accepted) to "come out" ?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, it reminds me of when Max Rushden had a brilliant interview when he was asking what words are acceptable to black people; sometimes, by trying not to say the wrong thing you say another wrong thing totally innocently.
Sorry, not good with words.
Stay safe.
The question you raise is a question of interest. I’m also a hetero male and yes, when a player comes out it will be of interest and may be an important watershed day, but although I hope to see someone come out soon, it can’t be rushed because it has to be right for them. Thomas Hitzlsperger, you may remember, came out just after retiring. One of the really great things about LGBTQ people (not all, but certainly the vast majority) is that when somebody in the public eye “comes out”, there is generally very little criticism aimed at them for not coming out sooner or even at all. This is actually really important, because everyone weighing up whether or not to come out has their own personal circumstances, pressures, worries, insecurities, families etc etc - and LGBTQ people generally understand and appreciate that.
We see proactive efforts in football to eradicate homophobia and that’s to be applauded and you have to assume it’s only a matter of time, but professional, male, team sports are extraordinarily old school macho environments - I’m sure lots of players are sympathetic and want to make things better, but I do wonder how many of these lads are fully behind it, regardless of the sound bites we hear from players in interviews.
I honestly expected more players to come out after Thomas Hitzlsperger did - If he’d come out while still playing there may have been more gay players follow suit - but Hitzlsperger can’t be blamed for that. I completely understand why he chose to wait - he may have felt he’d crumple under the pressure whether that be from the training ground, opposition, media or supporters.
What I really look forward to is a player in the Roy Keane, Dave Mackay type mold to come out - by that I mean a double hard bastard, couldn’t give a fuck what you think, revels in the hatred of opposition supporters type player. Someone who’d go into training the next day and dare his teammates to start on him. If someone like that comes out then we’ll have reached the watershed.
Question for either or both of you, or for anyone else: why do you care? Indeed, why should anyone care whom anyone else sleeps with?
I note that you have both come out as heterosexual males, and I am glad you seem not to have faced any prejudice in that regard. But, why is it of interest to you whether a footballer also comes out?
(Obviously, I am asking this very much tongue in cheek; but it's a serious point. I hope that in the not-too-distant future, that there is absolutely no interest whatsoever in a footballer's sexuality).
This is the point I'm trying to make/ask. Why are people, myself included, wondering who is the first footballer to come out ? Am I wrong to ask this ?
The Castle in Lewisham was a venue I used to go to, I've had made gay friends. I still have. (Honest, I do have friends).
I agree totally that, hopefully, in the very near future, there is no interest in a footballers sexuality.
Slightly off topic, and I apologise for this, but may I ask a serious question ?
It's something that has intrigued me for years, and I don't know why.
As a heterosexual male, with no discriminatory thoughts towards any creed, race, religion or beliefs, why do I wonder who will be the first "gay" footballer (Justin Fashanu accepted) to "come out" ?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, it reminds me of when Max Rushden had a brilliant interview when he was asking what words are acceptable to black people; sometimes, by trying not to say the wrong thing you say another wrong thing totally innocently.
Sorry, not good with words.
Stay safe.
The question you raise is a question of interest. I’m also a hetero male and yes, when a player comes out it will be of interest and may be an important watershed day, but although I hope to see someone come out soon, it can’t be rushed because it has to be right for them. Thomas Hitzlsperger, you may remember, came out just after retiring. One of the really great things about LGBTQ people (not all, but certainly the vast majority) is that when somebody in the public eye “comes out”, there is generally very little criticism aimed at them for not coming out sooner or even at all. This is actually really important, because everyone weighing up whether or not to come out has their own personal circumstances, pressures, worries, insecurities, families etc etc - and LGBTQ people generally understand and appreciate that.
We see proactive efforts in football to eradicate homophobia and that’s to be applauded and you have to assume it’s only a matter of time, but professional, male, team sports are extraordinarily old school macho environments - I’m sure lots of players are sympathetic and want to make things better, but I do wonder how many of these lads are fully behind it, regardless of the sound bites we hear from players in interviews.
I honestly expected more players to come out after Thomas Hitzlsperger did - If he’d come out while still playing there may have been more gay players follow suit - but Hitzlsperger can’t be blamed for that. I completely understand why he chose to wait - he may have felt he’d crumple under the pressure whether that be from the training ground, opposition, media or supporters.
What I really look forward to is a player in the Roy Keane, Dave Mackay type mold to come out - by that I mean a double hard bastard, couldn’t give a fuck what you think, revels in the hatred of opposition supporters type player. Someone who’d go into training the next day and dare his teammates to start on him. If someone like that comes out then we’ll have reached the watershed.
Question for either or both of you, or for anyone else: why do you care? Indeed, why should anyone care whom anyone else sleeps with?
I note that you have both come out as heterosexual males, and I am glad you seem not to have faced any prejudice in that regard. But, why is it of interest to you whether a footballer also comes out?
(Obviously, I am asking this very much tongue in cheek; but it's a serious point. I hope that in the not-too-distant future, that there is absolutely no interest whatsoever in a footballer's sexuality).
This is the point I'm trying to make/ask. Why are people, myself included, wondering who is the first footballer to come out ? Am I wrong to ask this ?
The Castle in Lewisham was a venue I used to go to, I've had made gay friends. I still have. (Honest, I do have friends).
I agree totally that, hopefully, in the very near future, there is no interest in a footballers sexuality.
No, you're absolutely not 'wrong' to wonder that. But you're in a better position than anyone else to answer the question you asked, which is why do you care?
Slightly off topic, and I apologise for this, but may I ask a serious question ?
It's something that has intrigued me for years, and I don't know why.
As a heterosexual male, with no discriminatory thoughts towards any creed, race, religion or beliefs, why do I wonder who will be the first "gay" footballer (Justin Fashanu accepted) to "come out" ?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, it reminds me of when Max Rushden had a brilliant interview when he was asking what words are acceptable to black people; sometimes, by trying not to say the wrong thing you say another wrong thing totally innocently.
Sorry, not good with words.
Stay safe.
The question you raise is a question of interest. I’m also a hetero male and yes, when a player comes out it will be of interest and may be an important watershed day, but although I hope to see someone come out soon, it can’t be rushed because it has to be right for them. Thomas Hitzlsperger, you may remember, came out just after retiring. One of the really great things about LGBTQ people (not all, but certainly the vast majority) is that when somebody in the public eye “comes out”, there is generally very little criticism aimed at them for not coming out sooner or even at all. This is actually really important, because everyone weighing up whether or not to come out has their own personal circumstances, pressures, worries, insecurities, families etc etc - and LGBTQ people generally understand and appreciate that.
We see proactive efforts in football to eradicate homophobia and that’s to be applauded and you have to assume it’s only a matter of time, but professional, male, team sports are extraordinarily old school macho environments - I’m sure lots of players are sympathetic and want to make things better, but I do wonder how many of these lads are fully behind it, regardless of the sound bites we hear from players in interviews.
I honestly expected more players to come out after Thomas Hitzlsperger did - If he’d come out while still playing there may have been more gay players follow suit - but Hitzlsperger can’t be blamed for that. I completely understand why he chose to wait - he may have felt he’d crumple under the pressure whether that be from the training ground, opposition, media or supporters.
What I really look forward to is a player in the Roy Keane, Dave Mackay type mold to come out - by that I mean a double hard bastard, couldn’t give a fuck what you think, revels in the hatred of opposition supporters type player. Someone who’d go into training the next day and dare his teammates to start on him. If someone like that comes out then we’ll have reached the watershed.
Question for either or both of you, or for anyone else: why do you care? Indeed, why should anyone care whom anyone else sleeps with?
I note that you have both come out as heterosexual males, and I am glad you seem not to have faced any prejudice in that regard. But, why is it of interest to you whether a footballer also comes out?
(Obviously, I am asking this very much tongue in cheek; but it's a serious point. I hope that in the not-too-distant future, that there is absolutely no interest whatsoever in a footballer's sexuality).
I know what you mean, but to answer the question: I care because the sooner a current footballer comes out, the sooner all those thousands of young LGBTQ people who love football have a role model they can relate to. The sooner one player comes out, more will come out and those same LGBTQ kids have more than one potential role model. Its not that I’m interested in the sexuality of someone or who they sleep with. I’m not. I’m just interested in the well-being of people.
Very good answer.
Would you agree with me though, that the sooner we get to a position where no-one cares what sexuality any players currently exhibit, the better we will all be?
Slightly off topic, and I apologise for this, but may I ask a serious question ?
It's something that has intrigued me for years, and I don't know why.
As a heterosexual male, with no discriminatory thoughts towards any creed, race, religion or beliefs, why do I wonder who will be the first "gay" footballer (Justin Fashanu accepted) to "come out" ?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, it reminds me of when Max Rushden had a brilliant interview when he was asking what words are acceptable to black people; sometimes, by trying not to say the wrong thing you say another wrong thing totally innocently.
Sorry, not good with words.
Stay safe.
The question you raise is a question of interest. I’m also a hetero male and yes, when a player comes out it will be of interest and may be an important watershed day, but although I hope to see someone come out soon, it can’t be rushed because it has to be right for them. Thomas Hitzlsperger, you may remember, came out just after retiring. One of the really great things about LGBTQ people (not all, but certainly the vast majority) is that when somebody in the public eye “comes out”, there is generally very little criticism aimed at them for not coming out sooner or even at all. This is actually really important, because everyone weighing up whether or not to come out has their own personal circumstances, pressures, worries, insecurities, families etc etc - and LGBTQ people generally understand and appreciate that.
We see proactive efforts in football to eradicate homophobia and that’s to be applauded and you have to assume it’s only a matter of time, but professional, male, team sports are extraordinarily old school macho environments - I’m sure lots of players are sympathetic and want to make things better, but I do wonder how many of these lads are fully behind it, regardless of the sound bites we hear from players in interviews.
I honestly expected more players to come out after Thomas Hitzlsperger did - If he’d come out while still playing there may have been more gay players follow suit - but Hitzlsperger can’t be blamed for that. I completely understand why he chose to wait - he may have felt he’d crumple under the pressure whether that be from the training ground, opposition, media or supporters.
What I really look forward to is a player in the Roy Keane, Dave Mackay type mold to come out - by that I mean a double hard bastard, couldn’t give a fuck what you think, revels in the hatred of opposition supporters type player. Someone who’d go into training the next day and dare his teammates to start on him. If someone like that comes out then we’ll have reached the watershed.
Question for either or both of you, or for anyone else: why do you care? Indeed, why should anyone care whom anyone else sleeps with?
I note that you have both come out as heterosexual males, and I am glad you seem not to have faced any prejudice in that regard. But, why is it of interest to you whether a footballer also comes out?
(Obviously, I am asking this very much tongue in cheek; but it's a serious point. I hope that in the not-too-distant future, that there is absolutely no interest whatsoever in a footballer's sexuality).
This is the point I'm trying to make/ask. Why are people, myself included, wondering who is the first footballer to come out ? Am I wrong to ask this ?
The Castle in Lewisham was a venue I used to go to, I've had made gay friends. I still have. (Honest, I do have friends).
I agree totally that, hopefully, in the very near future, there is no interest in a footballers sexuality.
No, you're absolutely not 'wrong' to wonder that. But you're in a better position than anyone else to answer the question you asked, which is why do you care?
Sorry, thats the question. Why do I care ? I don't know.
When I used the word fundamental, it was in reference to people who take the Bible/Koran etc... literally. The vast majority of religious people do not do this. They appreciate that Adam and Eve is disproved by science as we evolved from apes. I don't think this act was done for religious reasons though, more by ignorant nutters who have their own crazed agendas.
I think there is a wider question posed where you have religious communities who oppress women, people from the LGBT community etc... Where does their right to religious freedom end and the values/aspirations of the country begin?
When I used the word fundamental, it was in reference to people who take the Bible/Koran etc... literally. The vast majority of religious people do not do this. They appreciate that Adam and Eve is disproved by science as we evolved from apes. I don't think this act was done for religious reasons though, more by ignorant nutters who have their own crazed agendas.
I think there is a wider question posed where you have religious communities who oppress women, people from the LGBT community etc... Where does their right to religious freedom end and the values/aspirations of the country begin?
The right to religious freedom ends when it infringes on the rights of others - holding strong beliefs is something that shouldn't be policed, but it is the acting on them to the extent it harms another that is a matter of issue.
We all have individual freedoms and rights, but these also come with responsibilities to society en masse.
Slightly off topic, and I apologise for this, but may I ask a serious question ?
It's something that has intrigued me for years, and I don't know why.
As a heterosexual male, with no discriminatory thoughts towards any creed, race, religion or beliefs, why do I wonder who will be the first "gay" footballer (Justin Fashanu accepted) to "come out" ?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, it reminds me of when Max Rushden had a brilliant interview when he was asking what words are acceptable to black people; sometimes, by trying not to say the wrong thing you say another wrong thing totally innocently.
Sorry, not good with words.
Stay safe.
The question you raise is a question of interest. I’m also a hetero male and yes, when a player comes out it will be of interest and may be an important watershed day, but although I hope to see someone come out soon, it can’t be rushed because it has to be right for them. Thomas Hitzlsperger, you may remember, came out just after retiring. One of the really great things about LGBTQ people (not all, but certainly the vast majority) is that when somebody in the public eye “comes out”, there is generally very little criticism aimed at them for not coming out sooner or even at all. This is actually really important, because everyone weighing up whether or not to come out has their own personal circumstances, pressures, worries, insecurities, families etc etc - and LGBTQ people generally understand and appreciate that.
We see proactive efforts in football to eradicate homophobia and that’s to be applauded and you have to assume it’s only a matter of time, but professional, male, team sports are extraordinarily old school macho environments - I’m sure lots of players are sympathetic and want to make things better, but I do wonder how many of these lads are fully behind it, regardless of the sound bites we hear from players in interviews.
I honestly expected more players to come out after Thomas Hitzlsperger did - If he’d come out while still playing there may have been more gay players follow suit - but Hitzlsperger can’t be blamed for that. I completely understand why he chose to wait - he may have felt he’d crumple under the pressure whether that be from the training ground, opposition, media or supporters.
What I really look forward to is a player in the Roy Keane, Dave Mackay type mold to come out - by that I mean a double hard bastard, couldn’t give a fuck what you think, revels in the hatred of opposition supporters type player. Someone who’d go into training the next day and dare his teammates to start on him. If someone like that comes out then we’ll have reached the watershed.
Question for either or both of you, or for anyone else: why do you care? Indeed, why should anyone care whom anyone else sleeps with?
I note that you have both come out as heterosexual males, and I am glad you seem not to have faced any prejudice in that regard. But, why is it of interest to you whether a footballer also comes out?
(Obviously, I am asking this very much tongue in cheek; but it's a serious point. I hope that in the not-too-distant future, that there is absolutely no interest whatsoever in a footballer's sexuality).
I know what you mean, but to answer the question: I care because the sooner a current footballer comes out, the sooner all those thousands of young LGBTQ people who love football have a role model they can relate to. The sooner one player comes out, more will come out and those same LGBTQ kids have more than one potential role model. Its not that I’m interested in the sexuality of someone or who they sleep with. I’m not. I’m just interested in the well-being of people.
Very good answer.
Would you agree with me though, that the sooner we get to a position where no-one cares what sexuality any players currently exhibit, the better we will all be?
Well, yeah. Of course. But let’s be clear - an important part of understanding and respecting people who are different to you is talking with them and trying to appreciate their view, understanding and empathising. Talking about sexuality isn’t a bad thing. Famous LGBTQ people are a useful reference point for other LGBTQ people when talking to, explaining their circumstances or views or simply holding a conversation with others, be they supportive friends, neutral listeners or hostile antagonists.
At the end of the day, who you want to be naughty with in the bedroom is of no intimate interest to me. For instance, if you’re a straight male friend of mine who has a girlfriend and, when we first met we were chatting down the pub, you’d probably mention having a girlfriend at some point, so I would inevitably find out that you’re straight. But I don’t then picture you and your girlfriend going at it! The point is, sexual orientation is a perfectly normal thing to talk about. We shouldn’t shy away from it. Some people would rather not talk about it - that’s perfectly normal too because that’s their prerogative. But if someone does mention it, I’ll continue to take an interest in the name of social relationships.
Let me just give some personal context. Until I was 19, I didn’t (knowingly) know any gay people. My first gay friend was a workmate at Pontins - we hit it off immediately and became close mates. Being young and immature, we would talk about all sorts of stuff, I would ask him questions and he would tell me things I couldn’t believe. I look back on this mildly embarrassed at this wide-eyed innocence, but I don’t regret it because my interest came from a good place and I gained genuine understanding of something that was somewhat alien to me. He also told me that he appreciated our conversations because he trusted me and he sometimes needed to vent or just talk to someone that wasn’t either a girl or a gay man. He was also fucking hilarious and awesome. I’ve now matured (god knows I have matured. I’d say I’m overripe now!) and my approach is far less upfront. Over the years I’ve lost count of the number of gay friends I’ve made. With many of them, their ‘gayness’ was just a footnote, we didn’t really mention it much. With some, they would often go straight to a ‘gay’ topic. With most, it was an important part of their identity - we might talk about all sorts of things, but an element of gay culture might come up too. If I showed no interest in this at all, then those friends would pick up on that pretty quickly and probably wouldn’t feel as comfortable talking about it with me. My being straight doesn’t exclude me from these conversations. I’m sure there is plenty of subject matter that my LGBTQ friends wouldn’t want to talk to me about because it’s intimate or something they feel I couldn’t relate to or maybe just none of my business. But that’s ok too.
So yes, you’re right that it would be nice if sexuality was unimportant, but the fact is, it is important to many LGBTQ people and some of them do want to talk about it. I’m not going to pretend it doesn’t exist and deny myself and my gay friends an opportunity to have interesting conversations.
When I used the word fundamental, it was in reference to people who take the Bible/Koran etc... literally. The vast majority of religious people do not do this. They appreciate that Adam and Eve is disproved by science as we evolved from apes. I don't think this act was done for religious reasons though, more by ignorant nutters who have their own crazed agendas.
I think there is a wider question posed where you have religious communities who oppress women, people from the LGBT community etc... Where does their right to religious freedom end and the values/aspirations of the country begin?
I’d lay money that a lot of high profile celebs etc who are religious keep their true feelings on homosexuality to themselves to avoid any bad publicity.
I’ve got to admit @DaveMehmet - when I saw you’d posted here I was expecting a response to “I don’t picture you and your girlfriend going at it” of you saying “Speak for yourself” 😂
I just want footballers to be able to talk openly about their life whether they are gay or straight. It's very sad if you are gay and can't talk openly about your personal life in the way most people take for granted.
I remember a kid at my school coming out as gay back in the 70s - a very brave and strong character.
Slightly off topic, and I apologise for this, but may I ask a serious question ?
It's something that has intrigued me for years, and I don't know why.
As a heterosexual male, with no discriminatory thoughts towards any creed, race, religion or beliefs, why do I wonder who will be the first "gay" footballer (Justin Fashanu accepted) to "come out" ?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, it reminds me of when Max Rushden had a brilliant interview when he was asking what words are acceptable to black people; sometimes, by trying not to say the wrong thing you say another wrong thing totally innocently.
Sorry, not good with words.
Stay safe.
The question you raise is a question of interest. I’m also a hetero male and yes, when a player comes out it will be of interest and may be an important watershed day, but although I hope to see someone come out soon, it can’t be rushed because it has to be right for them. Thomas Hitzlsperger, you may remember, came out just after retiring. One of the really great things about LGBTQ people (not all, but certainly the vast majority) is that when somebody in the public eye “comes out”, there is generally very little criticism aimed at them for not coming out sooner or even at all. This is actually really important, because everyone weighing up whether or not to come out has their own personal circumstances, pressures, worries, insecurities, families etc etc - and LGBTQ people generally understand and appreciate that.
We see proactive efforts in football to eradicate homophobia and that’s to be applauded and you have to assume it’s only a matter of time, but professional, male, team sports are extraordinarily old school macho environments - I’m sure lots of players are sympathetic and want to make things better, but I do wonder how many of these lads are fully behind it, regardless of the sound bites we hear from players in interviews.
I honestly expected more players to come out after Thomas Hitzlsperger did - If he’d come out while still playing there may have been more gay players follow suit - but Hitzlsperger can’t be blamed for that. I completely understand why he chose to wait - he may have felt he’d crumple under the pressure whether that be from the training ground, opposition, media or supporters.
What I really look forward to is a player in the Roy Keane, Dave Mackay type mold to come out - by that I mean a double hard bastard, couldn’t give a fuck what you think, revels in the hatred of opposition supporters type player. Someone who’d go into training the next day and dare his teammates to start on him. If someone like that comes out then we’ll have reached the watershed.
Question for either or both of you, or for anyone else: why do you care? Indeed, why should anyone care whom anyone else sleeps with?
I note that you have both come out as heterosexual males, and I am glad you seem not to have faced any prejudice in that regard. But, why is it of interest to you whether a footballer also comes out?
(Obviously, I am asking this very much tongue in cheek; but it's a serious point. I hope that in the not-too-distant future, that there is absolutely no interest whatsoever in a footballer's sexuality).
I know what you mean, but to answer the question: I care because the sooner a current footballer comes out, the sooner all those thousands of young LGBTQ people who love football have a role model they can relate to. The sooner one player comes out, more will come out and those same LGBTQ kids have more than one potential role model. Its not that I’m interested in the sexuality of someone or who they sleep with. I’m not. I’m just interested in the well-being of people.
Very good answer.
Would you agree with me though, that the sooner we get to a position where no-one cares what sexuality any players currently exhibit, the better we will all be?
Well, yeah. Of course. But let’s be clear - an important part of understanding and respecting people who are different to you is talking with them and trying to appreciate their view, understanding and empathising. Talking about sexuality isn’t a bad thing. Famous LGBTQ people are a useful reference point for other LGBTQ people when talking to, explaining their circumstances or views or simply holding a conversation with others, be they supportive friends, neutral listeners or hostile antagonists.
At the end of the day, who you want to be naughty with in the bedroom is of no intimate interest to me. For instance, if you’re a straight male friend of mine who has a girlfriend and, when we first met we were chatting down the pub, you’d probably mention having a girlfriend at some point, so I would inevitably find out that you’re straight. But I don’t then picture you and your girlfriend going at it! The point is, sexual orientation is a perfectly normal thing to talk about. We shouldn’t shy away from it. Some people would rather not talk about it - that’s perfectly normal too because that’s their prerogative. But if someone does mention it, I’ll continue to take an interest in the name of social relationships.
Let me just give some personal context. Until I was 19, I didn’t (knowingly) know any gay people. My first gay friend was a workmate at Pontins - we hit it off immediately and became close mates. Being young and immature, we would talk about all sorts of stuff, I would ask him questions and he would tell me things I couldn’t believe. I look back on this mildly embarrassed at this wide-eyed innocence, but I don’t regret it because my interest came from a good place and I gained genuine understanding of something that was somewhat alien to me. He also told me that he appreciated our conversations because he trusted me and he sometimes needed to vent or just talk to someone that wasn’t either a girl or a gay man. He was also fucking hilarious and awesome. I’ve now matured (god knows I have matured. I’d say I’m overripe now!) and my approach is far less upfront. Over the years I’ve lost count of the number of gay friends I’ve made. With many of them, their ‘gayness’ was just a footnote, we didn’t really mention it much. With some, they would often go straight to a ‘gay’ topic. With most, it was an important part of their identity - we might talk about all sorts of things, but an element of gay culture might come up too. If I showed no interest in this at all, then those friends would pick up on that pretty quickly and probably wouldn’t feel as comfortable talking about it with me. My being straight doesn’t exclude me from these conversations. I’m sure there is plenty of subject matter that my LGBTQ friends wouldn’t want to talk to me about because it’s intimate or something they feel I couldn’t relate to or maybe just none of my business. But that’s ok too.
So yes, you’re right that it would be nice if sexuality was unimportant, but the fact is, it is important to many LGBTQ people and some of them do want to talk about it. I’m not going to pretend it doesn’t exist and deny myself and my gay friends an opportunity to have interesting conversations.
Interesting discussion. FWIW there's no issue with this in the women's game and I fear we are set back a bit in men's football because of what happened to Justin Fashanu. It's also worth remembering that "coming out" isn't a one off event - people come out at different times to different people and a lot depends on the context. My daughter's out to me, and in her social circle, but not to my birth mother who's expressed homophobic sentiments before. We talked about it - she understands the context very well - she even phrases things differently depending on who she is talking to. There are definitely gay/bi footballers playing at our level (and above) - given the intense scrutiny they would face if they came out while still playing, it's understandable they've not.
Interesting discussion. FWIW there's no issue with this in the women's game and I fear we are set back a bit in men's football because of what happened to Justin Fashanu. It's also worth remembering that "coming out" isn't a one off event - people come out at different times to different people and a lot depends on the context. My daughter's out to me, and in her social circle, but not to my birth mother who's expressed homophobic sentiments before. We talked about it - she understands the context very well - she even phrases things differently depending on who she is talking to. There are definitely gay/bi footballers playing at our level (and above) - given the intense scrutiny they would face if they came out while still playing, it's understandable they've not.
You highlight a very good point there and isn't something I had considered, it was I think mentioned on a podcast which I listen too is that it's not just "coming out" once. It's all the time as people tend to assume a person is heterosexual, they have to come out to new people they meet all the time. Must get tiring.
Comments
That’s arguably the greatest baffler of all, how so many people are taken in by and live their lives by, a notion of an imaginary sky fairy (of any persuasion).
It's really good to see issues of diversity, inclusion and equality taken so seriously by CAFC at all levels. And it appears the new ownership wants to promote this sort of thing much more - as another example the acquisition of the women's team.
Can only help rebuild and sustain Charlton as a club in the widest sense.
I truly hope not was not Charlton fans who did this at Proud Valiants’ event, but whether it was or not it is despicable behaviour. I'm heartened, nevertheless, by the contributions to this thread.
Compare to a discussion topic elsewhere, but not so far away geographically...
https://millwall-forum.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/elton-wrong-un.46797/
How do the moderators there allow some of these posts to stay up?
From my own perspective, growing up in the 70s and 80s, there was a lot of homophobic language knocking about and some of it was pretty vicious. This includes other school kids, neighbours and, to my shame, some family members. I expect a few posters on here can relate.
A lot of people who seemed particularly angry or disgusted about gay people were not, as far as I can tell, religious at all. I certainly think there’s an element of working class pride at play - Illustrated by the fact that as soon as someone male (in real life or even on telly) spoke ‘nicely’, they were immediately under suspicion of being gay.
Don’t get me wrong, religious nutjobs are a major player in the business of persecuting LGBTQ people, but there are plenty more who hold these prejudices for various other reasons.
It's something that has intrigued me for years, and I don't know why.
As a heterosexual male, with no discriminatory thoughts towards any creed, race, religion or beliefs, why do I wonder who will be the first "gay" footballer (Justin Fashanu accepted) to "come out" ?
I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one, it reminds me of when Max Rushden had a brilliant interview when he was asking what words are acceptable to black people; sometimes, by trying not to say the wrong thing you say another wrong thing totally innocently.
Sorry, not good with words.
Stay safe.
”Man will always condemn in others that which he most fears in himself.”
I googled it, “We always condemn most in others, he thought, that which we most fear in ourselves.”
So true. Would explain alot of insurcure peoples stances.
Thank you.
Robert M. Pirsig.
Thomas Hitzlsperger, you may remember, came out just after retiring. One of the really great things about LGBTQ people (not all, but certainly the vast majority) is that when somebody in the public eye “comes out”, there is generally very little criticism aimed at them for not coming out sooner or even at all. This is actually really important, because everyone weighing up whether or not to come out has their own personal circumstances, pressures, worries, insecurities, families etc etc - and LGBTQ people generally understand and appreciate that.
We see proactive efforts in football to eradicate homophobia and that’s to be applauded and you have to assume it’s only a matter of time, but professional, male, team sports are extraordinarily old school macho environments - I’m sure lots of players are sympathetic and want to make things better, but I do wonder how many of these lads are fully behind it, regardless of the sound bites we hear from players in interviews.
I honestly expected more players to come out after Thomas Hitzlsperger did - If he’d come out while still playing there may have been more gay players follow suit - but Hitzlsperger can’t be blamed for that. I completely understand why he chose to wait - he may have felt he’d crumple under the pressure whether that be from the training ground, opposition, media or supporters.
What I really look forward to is a player in the Roy Keane, Dave Mackay type mold to come out - by that I mean a double hard bastard, couldn’t give a fuck what you think, revels in the hatred of opposition supporters type player. Someone who’d go into training the next day and dare his teammates to start on him. If someone like that comes out then we’ll have reached the watershed.
I note that you have both come out as heterosexual males, and I am glad you seem not to have faced any prejudice in that regard. But, why is it of interest to you whether a footballer also comes out?
(Obviously, I am asking this very much tongue in cheek; but it's a serious point. I hope that in the not-too-distant future, that there is absolutely no interest whatsoever in a footballer's sexuality).
Thank you for that, appreciate it.
I agree 100% with what you say, I just wonder why only me/some/many people are interested in which footballers are gay.
I have no idea, I know its easy for me to say now, but, hopefully, all people one day will be feel safe to be open and honest about their sexuality and religious beliefs without any prejudice or abuse.
Stay safe.
I care because the sooner a current footballer comes out, the sooner all those thousands of young LGBTQ people who love football have a role model they can relate to. The sooner one player comes out, more will come out and those same LGBTQ kids have more than one potential role model.
Its not that I’m interested in the sexuality of someone or who they sleep with. I’m not. I’m just interested in the well-being of people.
Why are people, myself included, wondering who is the first footballer to come out ?
Am I wrong to ask this ?
The Castle in Lewisham was a venue I used to go to, I've had made gay friends. I still have. (Honest, I do have friends).
I agree totally that, hopefully, in the very near future, there is no interest in a footballers sexuality.
Would you agree with me though, that the sooner we get to a position where no-one cares what sexuality any players currently exhibit, the better we will all be?
Why do I care ?
I don't know.
I think there is a wider question posed where you have religious communities who oppress women, people from the LGBT community etc... Where does their right to religious freedom end and the values/aspirations of the country begin?
We all have individual freedoms and rights, but these also come with responsibilities to society en masse.
But let’s be clear - an important part of understanding and respecting people who are different to you is talking with them and trying to appreciate their view, understanding and empathising.
Talking about sexuality isn’t a bad thing.
Famous LGBTQ people are a useful reference point for other LGBTQ people when talking to, explaining their circumstances or views or simply holding a conversation with others, be they supportive friends, neutral listeners or hostile antagonists.
At the end of the day, who you want to be naughty with in the bedroom is of no intimate interest to me. For instance, if you’re a straight male friend of mine who has a girlfriend and, when we first met we were chatting down the pub, you’d probably mention having a girlfriend at some point, so I would inevitably find out that you’re straight. But I don’t then picture you and your girlfriend going at it! The point is, sexual orientation is a perfectly normal thing to talk about. We shouldn’t shy away from it. Some people would rather not talk about it - that’s perfectly normal too because that’s their prerogative. But if someone does mention it, I’ll continue to take an interest in the name of social relationships.
Let me just give some personal context. Until I was 19, I didn’t (knowingly) know any gay people. My first gay friend was a workmate at Pontins - we hit it off immediately and became close mates. Being young and immature, we would talk about all sorts of stuff, I would ask him questions and he would tell me things I couldn’t believe. I look back on this mildly embarrassed at this wide-eyed innocence, but I don’t regret it because my interest came from a good place and I gained genuine understanding of something that was somewhat alien to me. He also told me that he appreciated our conversations because he trusted me and he sometimes needed to vent or just talk to someone that wasn’t either a girl or a gay man. He was also fucking hilarious and awesome.
I’ve now matured (god knows I have matured. I’d say I’m overripe now!) and my approach is far less upfront. Over the years I’ve lost count of the number of gay friends I’ve made. With many of them, their ‘gayness’ was just a footnote, we didn’t really mention it much. With some, they would often go straight to a ‘gay’ topic. With most, it was an important part of their identity - we might talk about all sorts of things, but an element of gay culture might come up too. If I showed no interest in this at all, then those friends would pick up on that pretty quickly and probably wouldn’t feel as comfortable talking about it with me. My being straight doesn’t exclude me from these conversations. I’m sure there is plenty of subject matter that my LGBTQ friends wouldn’t want to talk to me about because it’s intimate or something they feel I couldn’t relate to or maybe just none of my business. But that’s ok too.
So yes, you’re right that it would be nice if sexuality was unimportant, but the fact is, it is important to many LGBTQ people and some of them do want to talk about it. I’m not going to pretend it doesn’t exist and deny myself and my gay friends an opportunity to have interesting conversations.
Sorry for rambling. Hope that makes sense!
“I don’t picture you and your girlfriend going at it”
of you saying “Speak for yourself”
😂
I remember a kid at my school coming out as gay back in the 70s - a very brave and strong character.
It's also worth remembering that "coming out" isn't a one off event - people come out at different times to different people and a lot depends on the context. My daughter's out to me, and in her social circle, but not to my birth mother who's expressed homophobic sentiments before. We talked about it - she understands the context very well - she even phrases things differently depending on who she is talking to. There are definitely gay/bi footballers playing at our level (and above) - given the intense scrutiny they would face if they came out while still playing, it's understandable they've not.