16. According to bus companies, TFL, etc - unless you've got some form of discount card.
BINGO.
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
18, but this is going to remind me of the Student Ticket fiasco I had when trying to renew a season ticket (well 2 actually).........
1. Without manual intervention you can't be 21 or over and be a student according to the system; 2. If you did A levels this year you won't be a student at the start of the season. However if you are going to Uni (and therefore will be a student) you can't prove that until around now, so long after the season ticket purchase....... so you can't be a student and have to pay the U21 price......
16. According to bus companies, TFL, etc - unless you've got some form of discount card.
BINGO.
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
Me and my mates used to do this all the time years back when I was 16/17/18. Trust me, he knew the cut off for a child ticket is 16.
If you want to challenge it anyway, it’s up to you. But good luck doubling up on child tickets and the 16-25 young adult railcard.
An interesting question for all us trainspotters Golfie however in these circumstances travelling by rail is governed by the terms and conditions of travel I believe.
In this case the rail company have decided an Adult is aged 16 as galling as it may seem.
Not worth challenging it in court otherwise if you do and lose you could have to pay the costs of the other side. My best advice would be suck it up and pay up 😉.
The conditions of carriage will indicate the train company's view
for the valid discounts they apply to fares. This forms part of the
contract between the traveller and train company.
A traveller is expected to understand these terms, and therefore abide by them and travelling is seen as accepting those terms.
The
valid discounts for fares of young people only extend to the age of 15.
This is for national rail and TFL (ignoring discount cards).
Section 6.4 is relevant for National Rail
6.4. Children aged between 5 years and 15 years must have a valid Ticket for travel but are entitled to a “child” discount on most Tickets. If a discount is not available, it will be made clear to you when you buy your Ticket
I
do not believe the distinction is based upon anything other than the
views as set out by National Rail or TFL. Right or wrong it will not be
related to any other distinction of "child" .
The
ticket collector should have been more understanding IMO, and rather
than being so strict could have advised your son that he will need to
pay a full fare and asked for the extra £4.50. Perhaps the ticket
collector's hands are tied, and they are expected to fine people with no
discretion.
16. According to bus companies, TFL, etc - unless you've got some form of discount card.
BINGO.
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
None of that is relevant, though. You enter into a contract with the train company when you purchase the ticket, and the terms and conditions of that contract specify that a child discount is only available for passengers between the ages of 5 and 15 (inclusive).
They should probably come up with clearer names for the tickets than 'adult' and 'child', but the use of 'adult' for passengers 16 or over is long standing.
As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
I think if you refused to pay the fine they would just prosecute your son. I don’t think that the court would give you any platform for philosophising about what an adult is.
16. According to bus companies, TFL, etc - unless you've got some form of discount card.
BINGO.
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
None of that is relevant, though. You enter into a contract with the train company when you purchase the ticket, and the terms and conditions of that contract specify that a child discount is only available for passengers between the ages of 5 and 15 (inclusive).
They should probably come up with clearer names for the tickets than 'adult' and 'child', but the use of 'adult' for passengers 16 or over is long standing.
Your 2nd paragraph is the most salient part.
I generally drive everywhere & have no idea what any train company's t&cs are. If I (or anyone not knowing their rules) rocked up to jump on a train would we be expected to know their t&c's (which are not on view in a station) and that an adult is anyone over the age of 16.......which as we now know is not the actual law in England. Are we, the public, expected to know what all transport companies mean by Adult.
As a pp said.....I feel the ticket inspector should have just got my son to pay the correct fare.....not fine him, esp as the fine is 4x the difference of what he should have paid. He wasn't trying to evade anything, he simply thought that being 17 he is still a child under the law.
16. According to bus companies, TFL, etc - unless you've got some form of discount card.
BINGO.
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
This is, unbelievably as far as I am concerned, some 55 years ago for me. But I recollect that on buses (and maybe trains) you started to pay the adult fare at 14. If you were still at school, you could get a bus pass that allowed you to pay the child fare but only during term time and if you were travelling to/from school. I suspect this was a hangover from just after WWII when many (most?) kids left school at 14 and were therefore wage earners. That went up to 15, and then 16 in 1972. I reckon, therefore, it's more to do with whether you are working or a student rather than a child or an adult.
16. According to bus companies, TFL, etc - unless you've got some form of discount card.
BINGO.
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
None of that is relevant, though. You enter into a contract with the train company when you purchase the ticket, and the terms and conditions of that contract specify that a child discount is only available for passengers between the ages of 5 and 15 (inclusive).
They should probably come up with clearer names for the tickets than 'adult' and 'child', but the use of 'adult' for passengers 16 or over is long standing.
Your 2nd paragraph is the most salient part.
I generally drive everywhere & have no idea what any train company's t&cs are. If I (or anyone not knowing their rules) rocked up to jump on a train would we be expected to know their t&c's (which are not on view in a station) and that an adult is anyone over the age of 16.......which as we now know is not the actual law in England. Are we, the public, expected to know what all transport companies mean by Adult.
As a pp said.....I feel the ticket inspector should have just got my son to pay the correct fare.....not fine him, esp as the fine is 4x the difference of what he should have paid. He wasn't trying to evade anything, he simply thought that being 17 he is still a child under the law.
Sadly this would have been the common sense approach which is a rare as hen's teeth nowadays. If he doesn't use the trains it is reasonable he may believe he is still a child as 18 is what most people deem to be an adult.
16. According to bus companies, TFL, etc - unless you've got some form of discount card.
BINGO.
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
This is, unbelievably as far as I am concerned, some 55 years ago for me. But I recollect that on buses (and maybe trains) you started to pay the adult fare at 14. If you were still at school, you could get a bus pass that allowed you to pay the child fare but only during term time and if you were travelling to/from school. I suspect this was a hangover from just after WWII when many (most?) kids left school at 14 and were therefore wage earners. That went up to 15, and then 16 in 1972. I reckon, therefore, it's more to do with whether you are working or a student rather than a child or an adult.
Ah, but again, children don't leave school at 16 anymore. They have to stay on until 18, either at 6th form, College or an Apprenticeship - the latter very few do.
That is partly my point. I left school at 16 & got myself a job so didn't have a problem paying "adult" fares. As school children are still in education until 18 why are they (or their parents) having to pay full fare.
I have now been pointed to the "student" railcard thingy......although this costs £30 to get a 1/3 off. Not sure if it's worth it if he is only going to do the odd £5 train journey. I already pay £450 pa for his buss pass.
16. According to bus companies, TFL, etc - unless you've got some form of discount card.
BINGO.
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
This is, unbelievably as far as I am concerned, some 55 years ago for me. But I recollect that on buses (and maybe trains) you started to pay the adult fare at 14. If you were still at school, you could get a bus pass that allowed you to pay the child fare but only during term time and if you were travelling to/from school. I suspect this was a hangover from just after WWII when many (most?) kids left school at 14 and were therefore wage earners. That went up to 15, and then 16 in 1972. I reckon, therefore, it's more to do with whether you are working or a student rather than a child or an adult.
Ah, but again, children don't leave school at 16 anymore. They have to stay on until 18, either at 6th form, College or an Apprenticeship - the latter very few do.
That is partly my point. I left school at 16 & got myself a job so didn't have a problem paying "adult" fares. As school children are still in education until 18 why are they (or their parents) having to pay full fare.
I have now been pointed to the "student" railcard thingy......although this costs £30 to get a 1/3 off. Not sure if it's worth it if he is only going to do the odd £5 train journey. I already pay £450 pa for his buss pass.
But therein lies the problem. In Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, you can just leave school at 16. Everything becomes too complicated because of devolved government. Individuals and companies cannot keep up.
16. According to bus companies, TFL, etc - unless you've got some form of discount card.
BINGO.
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
On his 18th what is his pint of choice going to be?
16. According to bus companies, TFL, etc - unless you've got some form of discount card.
BINGO.
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
On his 18th what is his pint of choice going to be?
Lager of some sort.....if he follows in my footsteps that is.
If he follows in his mother's then maybe Guinness.....🤢.
Judging by the snowflake generation and the decades long refusal in this culture to marry and procreate I would say it wouldn't be too far out to say 35 marks adulthood in 2021!! (Or older!)
It is a good reflection to sometimes ponder that in WW2 many of these men were just 20 and yet already married with a family. Obviously there are economic factors and cultural factors now that weren't there in 1940. And having the opportunity to get married, start a family, and have a "job for life" is gone now and all these things kinda force you to grow up ... and quickly.
But as we have chosen to dismantle all that it is little wonder that "eternal teenagers" have still not reached adult hood well into their thirties and dareIsayit 40s and perhaps 50s even!
16. According to bus companies, TFL, etc - unless you've got some form of discount card.
BINGO.
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
On his 18th what is his pint of choice going to be?
Comments
My son was caught "fare evading" at the weekend and was given a Penalty Fare Notice. He is 17 and still at school.
In England the age at which you become an Adult is 18...........unless you are SothEastern Trains and then it is 16.
The Penalty is only £20 so no great shakes - the fact that the full fare was £9 & he paid £4.50 is more galling though.
The thing that gets me is the Penalty Fare Notice says the reason for the Issue of a PFN is "Adult on a Child Ticket".
As we can see from the responses above no one knows what "Adult" refers to or what age. As the law in England states that "Adult" is from age 18 I was musing what would happened if I refused to pay the fine & it went to court. Surely SouthEastern just printing "Adult" and then relying on THEIR rules as to what "Adult" means could be challenged, as I (and mote importantly my son) believe that "Adult" means when you are 18...............especially as he is desperate to go into a pub & buy a pint. Perhaps we can all just make up what age we think "Adult" means and then lives our lives accordingly ??
(btw - this is what I meant a few weeks ago when I said I was contrary. Laws in this country don't make sense - or at the very least they should be consistent. If they are not then who's to say what age anything should apply)
1. Without manual intervention you can't be 21 or over and be a student according to the system;
2. If you did A levels this year you won't be a student at the start of the season. However if you are going to Uni (and therefore will be a student) you can't prove that until around now, so long after the season ticket purchase....... so you can't be a student and have to pay the U21 price......
If you want to challenge it anyway, it’s up to you. But good luck doubling up on child tickets and the 16-25 young adult railcard.
An interesting question for all us trainspotters Golfie however in these circumstances travelling by rail is governed by the terms and conditions of travel I believe.
In this case the rail company have decided an Adult is aged 16 as galling as it may seem.
Not worth challenging it in court otherwise if you do and lose you could have to pay the costs of the other side. My best advice would be suck it up and pay up 😉.
travel but are entitled to a “child” discount on most Tickets. If a discount is not
available, it will be made clear to you when you buy your Ticket
They should probably come up with clearer names for the tickets than 'adult' and 'child', but the use of 'adult' for passengers 16 or over is long standing.
Sixteen and 17-year-olds pay half the adult rate on Tube, DLR and London Overground journeys with a 16+ Oyster photocard.
I generally drive everywhere & have no idea what any train company's t&cs are. If I (or anyone not knowing their rules) rocked up to jump on a train would we be expected to know their t&c's (which are not on view in a station) and that an adult is anyone over the age of 16.......which as we now know is not the actual law in England. Are we, the public, expected to know what all transport companies mean by Adult.
As a pp said.....I feel the ticket inspector should have just got my son to pay the correct fare.....not fine him, esp as the fine is 4x the difference of what he should have paid. He wasn't trying to evade anything, he simply thought that being 17 he is still a child under the law.
I suspect this was a hangover from just after WWII when many (most?) kids left school at 14 and were therefore wage earners. That went up to 15, and then 16 in 1972. I reckon, therefore, it's more to do with whether you are working or a student rather than a child or an adult.
That is partly my point. I left school at 16 & got myself a job so didn't have a problem paying "adult" fares. As school children are still in education until 18 why are they (or their parents) having to pay full fare.
I have now been pointed to the "student" railcard thingy......although this costs £30 to get a 1/3 off. Not sure if it's worth it if he is only going to do the odd £5 train journey. I already pay £450 pa for his buss pass.
And all full time students over 18 (including mature students) can get a student Oyster, giving 30% off travelcard and bus season tickets
If he follows in his mother's then maybe Guinness.....🤢.
It is a good reflection to sometimes ponder that in WW2 many of these men were just 20 and yet already married with a family.
Obviously there are economic factors and cultural factors now that weren't there in 1940. And having the opportunity to get married, start a family, and have a "job for life" is gone now and all these things kinda force you to grow up ... and quickly.
But as we have chosen to dismantle all that it is little wonder that "eternal teenagers" have still not reached adult hood well into their thirties and dareIsayit 40s and perhaps 50s even!