What Curbishley did often going to 451 in winter, always worked. I never get why managers insist on 433 or 4231, if you don't have reliable dynamic players. Just make the game difficult. Put all your most reliable players in and pack the midfield, kill the space.
Ok you do need one link player, preferably pacey. But everyone doubles up defensively and no one wanders for most of the first half. We don't even look like drawing at the moment against ok teams.
The fluid diamond we had under Bowyer's first full season, was the best formation/football I've seen at the Valley. Having said that we had a lot of players easily at championship level football intelligence. We've had better teams with better players, but as soon as you surrender space in midfield you need players that are amongst the divisional best. If not progressive tactics are useless with average personnel.
Can you explain what exactly is the difference between 451, that always worked, and 433 or 4231 actually is?
As far as I can see all 3 formations (going by the interview with Curbs, as well as my own memory) have 2 holding midfielders, a "10", 2 wingers and a center forward.
There's a lot of tosh spoken with regard to these numbers.
The main difference is about 'emphasis'. A 433 will indicate that the two wide midfield players will have more attacking intent than in a 451.
4231 is showing that your midfield five will have two designated 'holding' players (ie shielding the back four, ready to receive the ball from the defence) whereas a 451 might have a different number ... and a different number of players expected to go wide.
Subtle differences maybe ... and note that the designated roles may not always be filled by the same person. There can be interchange, although you would usually expect Player A to do Job 1, Player B to do Job 2, but that they (and others) may swap temporarily.
It's all about the quality of player that you have.
And, back to my earlier point about imbalance, it's another thing that coaches look for to see how they might exploit a square peg in a round hole, even if that only happens occasionally in a game.
But that's exactly the point I am making. There is an old article on here and the post match thread describing Curb's 451. It is exactly the same as what we are trying, and failing, to play now. It's just written down differently. I don't think anyone would really describe Dennis and Jerome Thomas as midfielders now would they?
What Curbishley did often going to 451 in winter, always worked. I never get why managers insist on 433 or 4231, if you don't have reliable dynamic players. Just make the game difficult. Put all your most reliable players in and pack the midfield, kill the space.
Ok you do need one link player, preferably pacey. But everyone doubles up defensively and no one wanders for most of the first half. We don't even look like drawing at the moment against ok teams.
The fluid diamond we had under Bowyer's first full season, was the best formation/football I've seen at the Valley. Having said that we had a lot of players easily at championship level football intelligence. We've had better teams with better players, but as soon as you surrender space in midfield you need players that are amongst the divisional best. If not progressive tactics are useless with average personnel.
Can you explain what exactly is the difference between 451, that always worked, and 433 or 4231 actually is?
As far as I can see all 3 formations (going by the interview with Curbs, as well as my own memory) have 2 holding midfielders, a "10", 2 wingers and a center forward.
There's a lot of tosh spoken with regard to these numbers.
The main difference is about 'emphasis'. A 433 will indicate that the two wide midfield players will have more attacking intent than in a 451.
4231 is showing that your midfield five will have two designated 'holding' players (ie shielding the back four, ready to receive the ball from the defence) whereas a 451 might have a different number ... and a different number of players expected to go wide.
Subtle differences maybe ... and note that the designated roles may not always be filled by the same person. There can be interchange, although you would usually expect Player A to do Job 1, Player B to do Job 2, but that they (and others) may swap temporarily.
It's all about the quality of player that you have.
And, back to my earlier point about imbalance, it's another thing that coaches look for to see how they might exploit a square peg in a round hole, even if that only happens occasionally in a game.
But that's exactly the point I am making. There is an old article on here and the post match thread describing Curb's 451. It is exactly the same as what we are trying, and failing, to play now. It's just written down differently. I don't think anyone would really describe Dennis and Jerome Thomas as midfielders now would they?
I'm obviously missing your point.
I don't make the distinction between 'midfielder' and 'winger'. To me, a winger is a wide midfielder. And some play with more attacking intent than others.
So, yes ... I would describe Rommedahl and Thomas as midfielders.
Rommedahl and Thomas had a similar role to what we want to see from DJ and Kirk. I expect Adkins wants them to track back and make the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 a 4-5-1 when defending.
What Curbishley did often going to 451 in winter, always worked. I never get why managers insist on 433 or 4231, if you don't have reliable dynamic players. Just make the game difficult. Put all your most reliable players in and pack the midfield, kill the space.
Ok you do need one link player, preferably pacey. But everyone doubles up defensively and no one wanders for most of the first half. We don't even look like drawing at the moment against ok teams.
The fluid diamond we had under Bowyer's first full season, was the best formation/football I've seen at the Valley. Having said that we had a lot of players easily at championship level football intelligence. We've had better teams with better players, but as soon as you surrender space in midfield you need players that are amongst the divisional best. If not progressive tactics are useless with average personnel.
Can you explain what exactly is the difference between 451, that always worked, and 433 or 4231 actually is?
As far as I can see all 3 formations (going by the interview with Curbs, as well as my own memory) have 2 holding midfielders, a "10", 2 wingers and a center forward.
There's a lot of tosh spoken with regard to these numbers.
The main difference is about 'emphasis'. A 433 will indicate that the two wide midfield players will have more attacking intent than in a 451.
4231 is showing that your midfield five will have two designated 'holding' players (ie shielding the back four, ready to receive the ball from the defence) whereas a 451 might have a different number ... and a different number of players expected to go wide.
Subtle differences maybe ... and note that the designated roles may not always be filled by the same person. There can be interchange, although you would usually expect Player A to do Job 1, Player B to do Job 2, but that they (and others) may swap temporarily.
It's all about the quality of player that you have.
And, back to my earlier point about imbalance, it's another thing that coaches look for to see how they might exploit a square peg in a round hole, even if that only happens occasionally in a game.
But that's exactly the point I am making. There is an old article on here and the post match thread describing Curb's 451. It is exactly the same as what we are trying, and failing, to play now. It's just written down differently. I don't think anyone would really describe Dennis and Jerome Thomas as midfielders now would they?
I'm obviously missing your point.
I don't make the distinction between 'midfielder' and 'winger'. To me, a winger is a wide midfielder. And some play with more attacking intent than others.
So, yes ... I would describe Rommedahl and Thomas as midfielders.
What do you think they are?
I would describe them now as wide forwards or wingers. The same as I would describe Kirk and DJ, I am not comparing quality obviously.
No one describes England as playing a 451 with Sterling and Saka/Sancho playing in the same position.
The original point was there is absolutely no difference at all between what we are trying, and failing, at now to the 451 "that always worked" (in the original post I was replying to) other than execution.
On the subject of female commentators at football I guess this is just something we need to get used to as its relatively new to us all. I'm neither for or against it per se however one thing that does grip my shit though is they often seem to try overly hard to be "blokey" whether that is an exaggerated common-ness or going well overboard with the use of jargon. Just explain what's going on and let the audience decide. Some of the best commentators were happy to paint a picture and then shut up for a bit but there seem to be a few nowadays that just won't shut up - and I include Sam Matterface in that.
Another thing doing my nut in is I have seen numerous times now the formations stated as 1-4-4-2 or 1-4-3-3
I'm not entirely sure we need to know that there is just the one goalkeeper...we kind of know that HOWEVER there is a think tak apparently trying to state the fact that, if the game contiues to progress as it is now, we will move into having a goalie as an additional defender - like a proper keeper-sweeper - an not end up with anyone spending much time in the goal.
i don't think the chelsea women's coach tries to be over blokey - reckon she's got the biggest c££k in the studio most games - a top box ticker (puts on tin hat)
Not as much as i should do really - i've been manager of many kids and adult sides and would quite often get in the pub later that day and be asked what formation the opposition were playing and didn't have a clue - not saying thatsa good thing but ometimes you can just see whats going on without having to put it into a coaching book phrase - chelsea womens coach seems to have invented (or at least promoted) the use of the high and low block - i presume this will supersed the high press which of course is just pushing up and closing down. The kids lap it up but its mainly a load of regurgitated bollox
It wasn't her that invented it but her appearing more on tv over the summer has made it a more common lexicon now
Same as "transition" and "overload" seem to be buzzwords but they aren't really a lot different to terminology previously used
Can’t explain it but that woman does my noggin in. Also are there not any male ex players around these days? Political correctness has done a full 360. Caught a bit of Football Focus on Saturday, two women and one bloke. Woman’s football is different to men’s.
Are there not three basic rules regardless of structure? 1. When you get the ball decide quickly what to do, be it pass, clear, run, dribble or whatever. 2. When your team mate has the ball put yourself in a position where he can find you with a pass or through ball. 3. When the oppo have the ball, get back, get goal side, get in the way, get in a tackle, get the ball.
In addition there are a couple of things that have always been effective. The one-two, and a decent cross getting attacked.
Then you need good players, hopefully better than the opposition. Attributes like power, speed, jiggery pokery, a powerful shot, being good with a dead ball and determination are what you look for in players.
Is all that too simple? It’s the kind of thing I look for at games.
All of the formations can flex into each other. Often in 442 one striker drops off and plays in the am area, hopefully assisting the midfield and linking play.
I'd say the main difference between a 451 and 4231, is that you are not playing with traditional wingers in the latter formation - more inside right/left. You're trying to dominate the central areas and the front four should be pressing higher up the pitch. The holding midfielders are there to stop teams breaking centrally.
The main difference is a 4231 has to be pressing higher up to win the ball back, whereas a 451 can do this by morphing into a 433 but is better at blocking midfield and counter attacking. Whilst 4231 can not be played without very talented and energetic players, a 451 can nullify a match without too much risk of players being overloaded defensively even without pacey players: You are left with setpieces being crucially important offensively in that scenario.
I just remember Robinson's 4231 where we always dominated possession, but left huge spaces around and behind our full backs for counter attacks. A 451 should rarely do this as your lm and rm, can operate as a slightly advanced secondary full back.
I do .. always interested to see how different managers set up their players and make use of their abilities .. stating the obvious, deploying the right tactics decides who wins or loses games a LOT of the time (I will not use this post to discuss the tactical nous of Mr Adkins)
I tend to be more "hooray, we've got the ball", "oh no, they've got the ball", etc. My sons, on the other hand, are very into the tactics. I remember years ago my older son saying "we are set up wrong - there's too big a gap between defence and midfield" and I replied "hooray, we've got the ball"...
Analysis of literature, films, plays, music, football - all bollocks. It's like trying to analyse a flower - take it to pieces and the flower has gone.
Not as much as i should do really - i've been manager of many kids and adult sides and would quite often get in the pub later that day and be asked what formation the opposition were playing and didn't have a clue - not saying thatsa good thing but ometimes you can just see whats going on without having to put it into a coaching book phrase - chelsea womens coach seems to have invented (or at least promoted) the use of the high and low block - i presume this will supersed the high press which of course is just pushing up and closing down. The kids lap it up but its mainly a load of regurgitated bollox
It wasn't her that invented it but her appearing more on tv over the summer has made it a more common lexicon now
Same as "transition" and "overload" seem to be buzzwords but they aren't really a lot different to terminology previously used
Can’t explain it but that woman does my noggin in. Also are there not any male ex players around these days? Political correctness has done a full 360. Caught a bit of Football Focus on Saturday, two women and one bloke. Woman’s football is different to men’s.
Not as much as i should do really - i've been manager of many kids and adult sides and would quite often get in the pub later that day and be asked what formation the opposition were playing and didn't have a clue - not saying thatsa good thing but ometimes you can just see whats going on without having to put it into a coaching book phrase - chelsea womens coach seems to have invented (or at least promoted) the use of the high and low block - i presume this will supersed the high press which of course is just pushing up and closing down. The kids lap it up but its mainly a load of regurgitated bollox
It wasn't her that invented it but her appearing more on tv over the summer has made it a more common lexicon now
Same as "transition" and "overload" seem to be buzzwords but they aren't really a lot different to terminology previously used
Can’t explain it but that woman does my noggin in. Also are there not any male ex players around these days? Political correctness has done a full 360. Caught a bit of Football Focus on Saturday, two women and one bloke. Woman’s football is different to men’s.
no blokes on the WSL coverage on the TV at all
Heskey was on Sky as a pundit on the opening game
Is/was the manager of Leicester's ladies isn't/wasn't he?
I usually look for the system at the kick off. Every team has a formation or system when in possession and when out of possession. For example 4-4-2 switches to 4-2-4 in attacking play, or 5-3-2 to 3-5-2. Most teams tend to line up in their system at the kick off. The BBC football page is very good. In the line ups for each game, they lay out the formation and adjust it if necessary.
To pick a system look for the defensive line. If the Right Centre Back has one other Centre Back to his left, it's a flat back four. If he has two to his left, it's a three man central defence. When out of possession, the two full backs drop in a line alongside the centre backs. In the 5-3-2 to 3-5-2 system they will push forward quickly as Wing Backs.
The characteristic of each system is governed by the style and ability of each individual in that system That will also determine whether a club uses a different system, like 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 which are more constant. So look to see if there are 2 Central Midfielders in front of the Centre Backs or just the one. Then decide whether there is one Centre forward, two strikers, or a Centre Forward with a number 10 playing just in behind him.
Every team should have a pattern of play that fits the system. For example, a short passing game through midfield, or an "up, back and through" style of play, into the Centre Forward to set up.the through ball.
When out of possession, most teams will either drop off to defend the 18 yard line, in a compact formation or push up as a team to defend high up the pitch and press the ball to suffocate the opposition and win the ball high up the pitch.
There are plenty of websites on systems, covering the 4-4-2 Diamond, 4-3-3, 4-4-1-1, 4-1-4-1, 3-4-3, Just put the system into google.
Tutt Tutt, you might disagree, but I posted on another thread, that I don’t think players at our level are good enough to play 4-2-3-1s and other modern formations that have crept in over the years.
Take Saturday. DJ and Kirk apparently too wide and not offering enough cover for the full backs. Watson and Morgan hopelessly overrun in the middle. Stockley, marooned up top. I’m not saying it won’t work, but I think it’s reserved for better players. It’s no disrespect to players at League One level, but I feel the most effective teams at this level just do 4-4-2 really well.
We had our diamond under Bowyer, but 3 of our midfielders that season were Cullen who had the energy and skill level to play in the middle 2 and cover the wing, break up the play, keep it simple. Bielik was a unit and Aribo class, all 3 of them capable of playing for decent championship teams imo, Aribo probably Prem. I look at our midfielders now, and probably only Arter has the pedigree to play in a formation of this type, although I’m pretty sure Bournemouth were 4-4-2. Even Burnley. They’re in the Premier League. It’s not attractive football, but I think Dyche knows he can’t faff about with anything other than 4-4-2, because of the players he has at his disposal. How the likes of Adkins and the Karl Robinson’s of this world think they can get away with 4-2-31/4-3-3 etc I’ll never know.
Not necessarily. I can't comment on Saturday as I wasn't there. There are coaches at the lower levels making the modern systems work. It's more a case of picking a system that suits the players you have,
As far down as the ninth level (Step 5), I saw a young coach called Harry Hudson, at Croydon FC in 2019, use the system previously employed by Guadiola at Bayern Munich, to great effect (where Phillip Lamn pushed forward diagonally from Right Back into Central Midfield as the playmaker). It totally bamboozled the opposition, whose coaches stood on the sideline and visibly struggled to work it out. The Right Back, Bradley Wilson, was a central midfielder adapted to play the role and he kept bringing the ball forward from Right Back into the central areas to create a 3 v 2. They were 3-0 up in the first half, before the opposition finally put a man-for-man on him. The opposition left winger was allowing him to get out, because they hadn't probably seen it used before. So anything is possible. Hudson has joined Glebe FC this season, and has Wilson with him after dropping down a couple of levels. It will be interesting to see how they go.
Bowyer used two systems to great effect in the Promotion year, 3-5-2 and the 4-4-2 diamond, and adapted very well from game to game, even changing at half time at Wembley. However, as you say, he had the quality of Bielik, Cullen and Aribo to call upon.
@Tutt-Tutt, are you still coaching ? and at what level ? Last two seasons I have watched lots of Step 4 and 5. Young guys on the way up but have left academies but still hoping to be spotted and Ex pros some still only mid 20's earning a part time wage. Plus guys who are all ages and step 4 and 5 are their level.
At games on Saturday at Valley, FA vase in Essex Sunday, FA youth Cup tonight at Tolworth watching a talented group of Youngsters from a foundation representing Corinthians Casuals in the second qualifying round and tonight I just admired the talent on show in a one sided match and picked out kids who will get another opportunity in the tough world of attempting to get a pro contract. Like all good sides they interchange positions so much that the full backs were available so often for a pass from an overlap. Excellent pitch at the Corinthians.
No, I'm too old for coaching/scouting now, but really enjoyed the last few seasons. I have also watched a lot of Steps 4, 5 & 6 in the past few seasons, often 3 or 4 games a week before Covid hit. There is a honesty about football at those levels.
I agree with you, there are players out there, if clubs are willing to take a chance. For example, In my time at Erith Town, I watched a young player called Josh Shonibare playing for Greenwich Borough U23s, on 4 or 5 occasions. He had pace and could score goals, but wasn't getting a look in. I was amazed when Erith were allowed to have him play in a trial game. Anyway we failed to sign him for whatever reason. He subsequently played in a trial match against Derby County U18s during the next close season, scored a hat-trick, and was promptly signed on a two year contract, which was also extended by a year. However, he was released in their player cull at the end of the season. It will be interesting to see where he pops up.
I usually look for the system at the kick off. Every team has a formation or system when in possession and when out of possession. For example 4-4-2 switches to 4-2-4 in attacking play, or 5-3-2 to 3-5-2. Most teams tend to line up in their system at the kick off. The BBC football page is very good. In the line ups for each game, they lay out the formation and adjust it if necessary.
To pick a system look for the defensive line. If the Right Centre Back has one other Centre Back to his left, it's a flat back four. If he has two to his left, it's a three man central defence. When out of possession, the two full backs drop in a line alongside the centre backs. In the 5-3-2 to 3-5-2 system they will push forward quickly as Wing Backs.
The characteristic of each system is governed by the style and ability of each individual in that system That will also determine whether a club uses a different system, like 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 which are more constant. So look to see if there are 2 Central Midfielders in front of the Centre Backs or just the one. Then decide whether there is one Centre forward, two strikers, or a Centre Forward with a number 10 playing just in behind him.
Every team should have a pattern of play that fits the system. For example, a short passing game through midfield, or an "up, back and through" style of play, into the Centre Forward to set up.the through ball.
When out of possession, most teams will either drop off to defend the 18 yard line, in a compact formation or push up as a team to defend high up the pitch and press the ball to suffocate the opposition and win the ball high up the pitch.
There are plenty of websites on systems, covering the 4-4-2 Diamond, 4-3-3, 4-4-1-1, 4-1-4-1, 3-4-3, Just put the system into google.
Tutt Tutt, you might disagree, but I posted on another thread, that I don’t think players at our level are good enough to play 4-2-3-1s and other modern formations that have crept in over the years.
Take Saturday. DJ and Kirk apparently too wide and not offering enough cover for the full backs. Watson and Morgan hopelessly overrun in the middle. Stockley, marooned up top. I’m not saying it won’t work, but I think it’s reserved for better players. It’s no disrespect to players at League One level, but I feel the most effective teams at this level just do 4-4-2 really well.
We had our diamond under Bowyer, but 3 of our midfielders that season were Cullen who had the energy and skill level to play in the middle 2 and cover the wing, break up the play, keep it simple. Bielik was a unit and Aribo class, all 3 of them capable of playing for decent championship teams imo, Aribo probably Prem. I look at our midfielders now, and probably only Arter has the pedigree to play in a formation of this type, although I’m pretty sure Bournemouth were 4-4-2. Even Burnley. They’re in the Premier League. It’s not attractive football, but I think Dyche knows he can’t faff about with anything other than 4-4-2, because of the players he has at his disposal. How the likes of Adkins and the Karl Robinson’s of this world think they can get away with 4-2-31/4-3-3 etc I’ll never know.
Not necessarily. I can't comment on Saturday as I wasn't there. There are coaches at the lower levels making the modern systems work. It's more a case of picking a system that suits the players you have,
As far down as the ninth level (Step 5), I saw a young coach called Harry Hudson, at Croydon FC in 2019, use the system previously employed by Guadiola at Bayern Munich, to great effect (where Phillip Lamn pushed forward diagonally from Right Back into Central Midfield as the playmaker). It totally bamboozled the opposition, whose coaches stood on the sideline and visibly struggled to work it out. The Right Back, Bradley Wilson, was a central midfielder adapted to play the role and he kept bringing the ball forward from Right Back into the central areas to create a 3 v 2. They were 3-0 up in the first half, before the opposition finally put a man-for-man on him. The opposition left winger was allowing him to get out, because they hadn't probably seen it used before. So anything is possible. Hudson has joined Glebe FC this season, and has Wilson with him after dropping down a couple of levels. It will be interesting to see how they go.
Bowyer used two systems to great effect in the Promotion year, 3-5-2 and the 4-4-2 diamond, and adapted very well from game to game, even changing at half time at Wembley. However, as you say, he had the quality of Bielik, Cullen and Aribo to call upon.
Another interesting system at this level was Sheff Utd and their overlapping centre backs. Like the diamond the strength is extra players in central midfield and playing with two strikers, with the weakness being the lack of width and numbers out wide.
Bowyer's team didn't have genuine wing backs but it wasn't an issue when Grant and Taylor were so effective drifting out wide, and could be supported by the midfielders who were comfortable on the ball and able to offer width themselves.
Not as much as i should do really - i've been manager of many kids and adult sides and would quite often get in the pub later that day and be asked what formation the opposition were playing and didn't have a clue - not saying thatsa good thing but ometimes you can just see whats going on without having to put it into a coaching book phrase - chelsea womens coach seems to have invented (or at least promoted) the use of the high and low block - i presume this will supersed the high press which of course is just pushing up and closing down. The kids lap it up but its mainly a load of regurgitated bollox
It wasn't her that invented it but her appearing more on tv over the summer has made it a more common lexicon now
Same as "transition" and "overload" seem to be buzzwords but they aren't really a lot different to terminology previously used
Not as much as i should do really - i've been manager of many kids and adult sides and would quite often get in the pub later that day and be asked what formation the opposition were playing and didn't have a clue - not saying thatsa good thing but ometimes you can just see whats going on without having to put it into a coaching book phrase - chelsea womens coach seems to have invented (or at least promoted) the use of the high and low block - i presume this will supersed the high press which of course is just pushing up and closing down. The kids lap it up but its mainly a load of regurgitated bollox
High and low block are basketball terms. Low block is defending under the basket, and high block is defending the three point line. Complete nonsense to use them in a football context, Defending the 18 yard line or defending the halfway line will do, although that obviously won't make you sound clever.
Transition is another basketball term, to describe the switch from defence to attack, Tranistion offence and transition defence. How about, quick break or counter attack, and dropping off to defend deep? Standard football phrases. But again that doesn't make you sound clever.
One of the female commentators use Shape every other sentence. Formation or system will do!
Id hate to be in a team talk listening to that nonsense. Many of the dressing rooms I've been in would start laughing if the coach started talking in gobbledegook.
Expected assists or expected goals is the the one that makes me laugh....do you mean chances?
What Thomas and Rommedhal had that we don't now aside from a quality found 2 division above where we are now but the simple intelligence defensively to take the ball and bring us up the pitch or get kicked, win a foul and get us up the pitch. DJ doesn't have that in his locker, Alfie Doughty does. Johnny Williams does as well. Its not about buying free kicks or diving its about stretching sides.
Anyway back to formations, they should all be able to interchange during a game. No reason why we can't play a tight 451 which I'd be inclined to start the next game with
I usually look for the system at the kick off. Every team has a formation or system when in possession and when out of possession. For example 4-4-2 switches to 4-2-4 in attacking play, or 5-3-2 to 3-5-2. Most teams tend to line up in their system at the kick off. The BBC football page is very good. In the line ups for each game, they lay out the formation and adjust it if necessary.
To pick a system look for the defensive line. If the Right Centre Back has one other Centre Back to his left, it's a flat back four. If he has two to his left, it's a three man central defence. When out of possession, the two full backs drop in a line alongside the centre backs. In the 5-3-2 to 3-5-2 system they will push forward quickly as Wing Backs.
The characteristic of each system is governed by the style and ability of each individual in that system That will also determine whether a club uses a different system, like 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 which are more constant. So look to see if there are 2 Central Midfielders in front of the Centre Backs or just the one. Then decide whether there is one Centre forward, two strikers, or a Centre Forward with a number 10 playing just in behind him.
Every team should have a pattern of play that fits the system. For example, a short passing game through midfield, or an "up, back and through" style of play, into the Centre Forward to set up.the through ball.
When out of possession, most teams will either drop off to defend the 18 yard line, in a compact formation or push up as a team to defend high up the pitch and press the ball to suffocate the opposition and win the ball high up the pitch.
There are plenty of websites on systems, covering the 4-4-2 Diamond, 4-3-3, 4-4-1-1, 4-1-4-1, 3-4-3, Just put the system into google.
Tutt Tutt, you might disagree, but I posted on another thread, that I don’t think players at our level are good enough to play 4-2-3-1s and other modern formations that have crept in over the years.
Take Saturday. DJ and Kirk apparently too wide and not offering enough cover for the full backs. Watson and Morgan hopelessly overrun in the middle. Stockley, marooned up top. I’m not saying it won’t work, but I think it’s reserved for better players. It’s no disrespect to players at League One level, but I feel the most effective teams at this level just do 4-4-2 really well.
We had our diamond under Bowyer, but 3 of our midfielders that season were Cullen who had the energy and skill level to play in the middle 2 and cover the wing, break up the play, keep it simple. Bielik was a unit and Aribo class, all 3 of them capable of playing for decent championship teams imo, Aribo probably Prem. I look at our midfielders now, and probably only Arter has the pedigree to play in a formation of this type, although I’m pretty sure Bournemouth were 4-4-2. Even Burnley. They’re in the Premier League. It’s not attractive football, but I think Dyche knows he can’t faff about with anything other than 4-4-2, because of the players he has at his disposal. How the likes of Adkins and the Karl Robinson’s of this world think they can get away with 4-2-31/4-3-3 etc I’ll never know.
Not necessarily. I can't comment on Saturday as I wasn't there. There are coaches at the lower levels making the modern systems work. It's more a case of picking a system that suits the players you have,
As far down as the ninth level (Step 5), I saw a young coach called Harry Hudson, at Croydon FC in 2019, use the system previously employed by Guadiola at Bayern Munich, to great effect (where Phillip Lamn pushed forward diagonally from Right Back into Central Midfield as the playmaker). It totally bamboozled the opposition, whose coaches stood on the sideline and visibly struggled to work it out. The Right Back, Bradley Wilson, was a central midfielder adapted to play the role and he kept bringing the ball forward from Right Back into the central areas to create a 3 v 2. They were 3-0 up in the first half, before the opposition finally put a man-for-man on him. The opposition left winger was allowing him to get out, because they hadn't probably seen it used before. So anything is possible. Hudson has joined Glebe FC this season, and has Wilson with him after dropping down a couple of levels. It will be interesting to see how they go.
Bowyer used two systems to great effect in the Promotion year, 3-5-2 and the 4-4-2 diamond, and adapted very well from game to game, even changing at half time at Wembley. However, as you say, he had the quality of Bielik, Cullen and Aribo to call upon.
Another interesting system at this level was Sheff Utd and their overlapping centre backs. Like the diamond the strength is extra players in central midfield and playing with two strikers, with the weakness being the lack of width and numbers out wide.
Bowyer's team didn't have genuine wing backs but it wasn't an issue when Grant and Taylor were so effective drifting out wide, and could be supported by the midfielders who were comfortable on the ball and able to offer width themselves.
352 worked well for us when we had someone like Sarr playing in the back 3, as he was able to bring the ball out and also provide extra width, as with that brilliant cross he did for Taylor when we won at Forest
What Thomas and Rommedhal had that we don't now aside from a quality found 2 division above where we are now but the simple intelligence defensively to take the ball and bring us up the pitch or get kicked, win a foul and get us up the pitch. DJ doesn't have that in his locker, Alfie Doughty does. Johnny Williams does as well. Its not about buying free kicks or diving its about stretching sides.
Anyway back to formations, they should all be able to interchange during a game. No reason why we can't play a tight 451 which I'd be inclined to start the next game with
Millar had it as well. If you compare Saturday to the Lincoln or Hull games last season the difference in the team are quite subtle but amount to quite a lot.
Not as much as i should do really - i've been manager of many kids and adult sides and would quite often get in the pub later that day and be asked what formation the opposition were playing and didn't have a clue - not saying thatsa good thing but ometimes you can just see whats going on without having to put it into a coaching book phrase - chelsea womens coach seems to have invented (or at least promoted) the use of the high and low block - i presume this will supersed the high press which of course is just pushing up and closing down. The kids lap it up but its mainly a load of regurgitated bollox
It wasn't her that invented it but her appearing more on tv over the summer has made it a more common lexicon now
Same as "transition" and "overload" seem to be buzzwords but they aren't really a lot different to terminology previously used
Not as much as i should do really - i've been manager of many kids and adult sides and would quite often get in the pub later that day and be asked what formation the opposition were playing and didn't have a clue - not saying thatsa good thing but ometimes you can just see whats going on without having to put it into a coaching book phrase - chelsea womens coach seems to have invented (or at least promoted) the use of the high and low block - i presume this will supersed the high press which of course is just pushing up and closing down. The kids lap it up but its mainly a load of regurgitated bollox
High and low block are basketball terms. Low block is defending under the basket, and high block is defending the three point line. Complete nonsense to use them in a football context, Defending the 18 yard line or defending the halfway line will do, although that obviously won't make you sound clever.
Transition is another basketball term, to describe the switch from defence to attack, Tranistion offence and transition defence. How about, quick break or counter attack, and dropping off to defend deep? Standard football phrases. But again that doesn't make you sound clever.
One of the female commentators use Shape every other sentence. Formation or system will do!
Id hate to be in a team talk listening to that nonsense. Many of the dressing rooms I've been in would start laughing if the coach started talking in gobbledegook.
Expected assists or expected goals is the the one that makes me laugh....do you mean chances?
Proper into it as most would probably be able to tell.
What I actually do as well is watch the opposition warm up before the game. It tells you a lot more than you might realise. Cheltenham’s goals came from what they practiced in the warm up, attacking phase and pattern of play without opposition but focused on movement, communication, creating space for a team mate, getting the ball into a dangerous area of the pitch and finishing it, they changed it each time.
Teams will often change system and formation throughout the game. Football now has become very fluid and it’s even more demanding on the players because of it. It is though where it highlights the limitations of players and teams. Failure to be adaptable and keep up with the ‘trends’ of football tactics is where you will often find those teams struggling.
At the moment the trend and phase is a back 3 but it is not really a 3-5-2, it’s more a 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1 that is being used more. It allows teams to have dominance of the ball whilst keeping players high and wide and still having enough in the middle. Especially in a 3-4-2-1 you could have in theory almost 4 central midfielders, two defensive (one sitting, one breaking forward) and two offensive (expected to get close to the forward and also provide support to the wing-back who almost becomes a winger at times.
10 years ago it was 4-3-3 that jumped in and out of a 4-2-3-1. If you look, some teams will still play that way because it’s worked for them so well that the players are used to it. But more and more successful teams are playing with a back 3.
Bielsa for example, studied the Championship intensively before going to Leeds. His analysis was that the formation which would provide the highest chance of success, i.e promotion, was a 4-1-4-1. As they’ve progressed into the Premier League, he’s slowly started to use his 3-3-1-3 formation more often. This is because he has coached them for long enough and they understand his philosophy, but also because he recognises it to be more achievable in that league than it would’ve been before.
There are some excellent young managers coming through who have a clear philosophy and style but also look to be adaptable when the trends change, which they will again. It’s those who will be successful and get the good jobs in future. The ones who are too stubborn to change and stick to their ways will stay at a level for a prolonged period.
Football has moved on a lot. If you went by numbers, you now have positions which could be identified as a 9.5 or 10.5, for example. A number 4 in the modern game almost has to now be a 4.5, someone capable of dropping in and being another centre back but have the ability to pass and see the pictures that a creative number 10 should spot.
Not as much as i should do really - i've been manager of many kids and adult sides and would quite often get in the pub later that day and be asked what formation the opposition were playing and didn't have a clue - not saying thatsa good thing but ometimes you can just see whats going on without having to put it into a coaching book phrase - chelsea womens coach seems to have invented (or at least promoted) the use of the high and low block - i presume this will supersed the high press which of course is just pushing up and closing down. The kids lap it up but its mainly a load of regurgitated bollox
It wasn't her that invented it but her appearing more on tv over the summer has made it a more common lexicon now
Same as "transition" and "overload" seem to be buzzwords but they aren't really a lot different to terminology previously used
Not as much as i should do really - i've been manager of many kids and adult sides and would quite often get in the pub later that day and be asked what formation the opposition were playing and didn't have a clue - not saying thatsa good thing but ometimes you can just see whats going on without having to put it into a coaching book phrase - chelsea womens coach seems to have invented (or at least promoted) the use of the high and low block - i presume this will supersed the high press which of course is just pushing up and closing down. The kids lap it up but its mainly a load of regurgitated bollox
High and low block are basketball terms. Low block is defending under the basket, and high block is defending the three point line. Complete nonsense to use them in a football context, Defending the 18 yard line or defending the halfway line will do, although that obviously won't make you sound clever.
Transition is another basketball term, to describe the switch from defence to attack, Tranistion offence and transition defence. How about, quick break or counter attack, and dropping off to defend deep? Standard football phrases. But again that doesn't make you sound clever.
One of the female commentators use Shape every other sentence. Formation or system will do!
Id hate to be in a team talk listening to that nonsense. Many of the dressing rooms I've been in would start laughing if the coach started talking in gobbledegook.
Expected assists or expected goals is the the one that makes me laugh....do you mean chances?
I agree with everything except the transition part.
It’s not all about defending to attacking, transition has been around a long time but is now being used more. Just like normal words in English language, some get used more at different times in history. Transition in football can be defensive to offensive, but also offensive to defensive. So many teams now are slow on defensive transitions. It’s not just about the counter attack, but the opposition as well. Exposing those weaknesses are now a big part within the modern game. It can be a collective transition or a positional transition. Not a dig, but the term is widely used now and has been around, but not used as much, before recent times.
On a separate note. It’s actually where football is ignorant. We fail to learn from other sports and it’s a shame. Other sports learn well from stealing bits and pieces from sports that might not be in any way directly related to them. They always say the best coaches are also the best thieves…
That was really interesting...shows that you need the correct personnel to play a given system. We need to get the 11 Individuals we saw on Saturday, playing as a team.
Get the defence sorted first and results will come.....currently we are just getting carved open and over run.
Comments
I don't make the distinction between 'midfielder' and 'winger'. To me, a winger is a wide midfielder. And some play with more attacking intent than others.
So, yes ... I would describe Rommedahl and Thomas as midfielders.
What do you think they are?
No one describes England as playing a 451 with Sterling and Saka/Sancho playing in the same position.
The original point was there is absolutely no difference at all between what we are trying, and failing, at now to the 451 "that always worked" (in the original post I was replying to) other than execution.
Another thing doing my nut in is I have seen numerous times now the formations stated as 1-4-4-2 or 1-4-3-3
I'm not entirely sure we need to know that there is just the one goalkeeper...we kind of know that HOWEVER there is a think tak apparently trying to state the fact that, if the game contiues to progress as it is now, we will move into having a goalie as an additional defender - like a proper keeper-sweeper - an not end up with anyone spending much time in the goal.
time will tell I suppose
1. When you get the ball decide quickly what to do, be it pass, clear, run, dribble or whatever.
2. When your team mate has the ball put yourself in a position where he can find you with a pass or through ball.
3. When the oppo have the ball, get back, get goal side, get in the way, get in a tackle, get the ball.
In addition there are a couple of things that have always been effective.
The one-two, and a decent cross getting attacked.
Then you need good players, hopefully better than the opposition.
Attributes like power, speed, jiggery pokery, a powerful shot, being good with a dead ball and determination are what you look for in players.
Is all that too simple? It’s the kind of thing I look for at games.
I'd say the main difference between a 451 and 4231, is that you are not playing with traditional wingers in the latter formation - more inside right/left. You're trying to dominate the central areas and the front four should be pressing higher up the pitch. The holding midfielders are there to stop teams breaking centrally.
The main difference is a 4231 has to be pressing higher up to win the ball back, whereas a 451 can do this by morphing into a 433 but is better at blocking midfield and counter attacking. Whilst 4231 can not be played without very talented and energetic players, a 451 can nullify a match without too much risk of players being overloaded defensively even without pacey players: You are left with setpieces being crucially important offensively in that scenario.
I just remember Robinson's 4231 where we always dominated possession, but left huge spaces around and behind our full backs for counter attacks. A 451 should rarely do this as your lm and rm, can operate as a slightly advanced secondary full back.
As far down as the ninth level (Step 5), I saw a young coach called Harry Hudson, at Croydon FC in 2019, use the system previously employed by Guadiola at Bayern Munich, to great effect (where Phillip Lamn pushed forward diagonally from Right Back into Central Midfield as the playmaker). It totally bamboozled the opposition, whose coaches stood on the sideline and visibly struggled to work it out. The Right Back, Bradley Wilson, was a central midfielder adapted to play the role and he kept bringing the ball forward from Right Back into the central areas to create a 3 v 2. They were 3-0 up in the first half, before the opposition finally put a man-for-man on him. The opposition left winger was allowing him to get out, because they hadn't probably seen it used before. So anything is possible. Hudson has joined Glebe FC this season, and has Wilson with him after dropping down a couple of levels. It will be interesting to see how they go.
Bowyer used two systems to great effect in the Promotion year, 3-5-2 and the 4-4-2 diamond, and adapted very well from game to game, even changing at half time at Wembley. However, as you say, he had the quality
of Bielik, Cullen and Aribo to call upon.
No, I'm too old for coaching/scouting now, but really enjoyed the last few seasons. I have also watched a lot of Steps 4, 5 & 6 in the past few seasons, often 3 or 4 games a week before Covid hit. There is a honesty about football at those levels.
I agree with you, there are players out there, if clubs are willing to take a chance. For example, In my time at Erith Town, I watched a young player called Josh Shonibare playing for Greenwich Borough U23s, on 4 or 5 occasions. He had pace and could score goals, but wasn't getting a look in. I was amazed when Erith were allowed to have him play in a trial game. Anyway we failed to sign him for whatever reason. He subsequently played in a trial match against Derby County U18s during the next close season, scored a hat-trick, and was promptly signed on a two year contract, which was also extended by a year. However, he was released in their player cull at the end of the season. It will be interesting to see where he pops up.
There is is always someone watching..
Bowyer's team didn't have genuine wing backs but it wasn't an issue when Grant and Taylor were so effective drifting out wide, and could be supported by the midfielders who were comfortable on the ball and able to offer width themselves.
Here's a video on Wilder's setup:
Transition is another basketball term, to describe the switch from defence to attack, Tranistion offence and transition defence. How about, quick break or counter attack, and dropping off to defend deep? Standard football phrases. But again that doesn't make you sound clever.
One of the female commentators use Shape every other sentence. Formation or system will do!
Id hate to be in a team talk listening to that nonsense. Many of the dressing rooms I've been in would start laughing if the coach started talking in gobbledegook.
Expected assists or expected goals is the the one that makes me laugh....do you mean chances?
Anyway back to formations, they should all be able to interchange during a game. No reason why we can't play a tight 451 which I'd be inclined to start the next game with
We played 4231 then, with Morgan and Watson.
What I actually do as well is watch the opposition warm up before the game. It tells you a lot more than you might realise. Cheltenham’s goals came from what they practiced in the warm up, attacking phase and pattern of play without opposition but focused on movement, communication, creating space for a team mate, getting the ball into a dangerous area of the pitch and finishing it, they changed it each time.
Teams will often change system and formation throughout the game. Football now has become very fluid and it’s even more demanding on the players because of it. It is though where it highlights the limitations of players and teams. Failure to be adaptable and keep up with the ‘trends’ of football tactics is where you will often find those teams struggling.
At the moment the trend and phase is a back 3 but it is not really a 3-5-2, it’s more a 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1 that is being used more. It allows teams to have dominance of the ball whilst keeping players high and wide and still having enough in the middle. Especially in a 3-4-2-1 you could have in theory almost 4 central midfielders, two defensive (one sitting, one breaking forward) and two offensive (expected to get close to the forward and also provide support to the wing-back who almost becomes a winger at times.
10 years ago it was 4-3-3 that jumped in and out of a 4-2-3-1. If you look, some teams will still play that way because it’s worked for them so well that the players are used to it. But more and more successful teams are playing with a back 3.
Bielsa for example, studied the Championship intensively before going to Leeds. His analysis was that the formation which would provide the highest chance of success, i.e promotion, was a 4-1-4-1. As they’ve progressed into the Premier League, he’s slowly started to use his 3-3-1-3 formation more often. This is because he has coached them for long enough and they understand his philosophy, but also because he recognises it to be more achievable in that league than it would’ve been before.
There are some excellent young managers coming through who have a clear philosophy and style but also look to be adaptable when the trends change, which they will again. It’s those who will be successful and get the good jobs in future. The ones who are too stubborn to change and stick to their ways will stay at a level for a prolonged period.
Football has moved on a lot. If you went by numbers, you now have positions which could be identified as a 9.5 or 10.5, for example. A number 4 in the modern game almost has to now be a 4.5, someone capable of dropping in and being another centre back but have the ability to pass and see the pictures that a creative number 10 should spot.
I love these things and could go on all night.
It’s not all about defending to attacking, transition has been around a long time but is now being used more. Just like normal words in English language, some get used more at different times in history. Transition in football can be defensive to offensive, but also offensive to defensive. So many teams now are slow on defensive transitions. It’s not just about the counter attack, but the opposition as well. Exposing those weaknesses are now a big part within the modern game. It can be a collective transition or a positional transition. Not a dig, but the term is widely used now and has been around, but not used as much, before recent times.
On a separate note. It’s actually where football is ignorant. We fail to learn from other sports and it’s a shame. Other sports learn well from stealing bits and pieces from sports that might not be in any way directly related to them. They always say the best coaches are also the best thieves…
We need to get the 11 Individuals we saw on Saturday, playing as a team.
Get the defence sorted first and results will come.....currently we are just getting carved open and over run.