Proper into it as most would probably be able to tell.
What I actually do as well is watch the opposition warm up before the game. It tells you a lot more than you might realise. Cheltenham’s goals came from what they practiced in the warm up, attacking phase and pattern of play without opposition but focused on movement, communication, creating space for a team mate, getting the ball into a dangerous area of the pitch and finishing it, they changed it each time.
Teams will often change system and formation throughout the game. Football now has become very fluid and it’s even more demanding on the players because of it. It is though where it highlights the limitations of players and teams. Failure to be adaptable and keep up with the ‘trends’ of football tactics is where you will often find those teams struggling.
At the moment the trend and phase is a back 3 but it is not really a 3-5-2, it’s more a 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1 that is being used more. It allows teams to have dominance of the ball whilst keeping players high and wide and still having enough in the middle. Especially in a 3-4-2-1 you could have in theory almost 4 central midfielders, two defensive (one sitting, one breaking forward) and two offensive (expected to get close to the forward and also provide support to the wing-back who almost becomes a winger at times.
10 years ago it was 4-3-3 that jumped in and out of a 4-2-3-1. If you look, some teams will still play that way because it’s worked for them so well that the players are used to it. But more and more successful teams are playing with a back 3.
Bielsa for example, studied the Championship intensively before going to Leeds. His analysis was that the formation which would provide the highest chance of success, i.e promotion, was a 4-1-4-1. As they’ve progressed into the Premier League, he’s slowly started to use his 3-3-1-3 formation more often. This is because he has coached them for long enough and they understand his philosophy, but also because he recognises it to be more achievable in that league than it would’ve been before.
There are some excellent young managers coming through who have a clear philosophy and style but also look to be adaptable when the trends change, which they will again. It’s those who will be successful and get the good jobs in future. The ones who are too stubborn to change and stick to their ways will stay at a level for a prolonged period.
Football has moved on a lot. If you went by numbers, you now have positions which could be identified as a 9.5 or 10.5, for example. A number 4 in the modern game almost has to now be a 4.5, someone capable of dropping in and being another centre back but have the ability to pass and see the pictures that a creative number 10 should spot.
I love these things and could go on all night.
In my life time every system invented has been to get an extra man in midfield. Even George Graham's very negative 541 actually ment they had 3 or even 4 center mids as the full backs provided width so the "wingers" could tuck in.
I heard Neil Warnock saying he went to 3 at the back, for the first time in his career, at Boro, as it was the only we he could play two up front.
IMO the trend in youth football to play 433 or 4231 has produced very specific types of players. Who it could be argued are better at their primery role, but aren't as good all rounders. When your talking about league 1 players their weeknesses, in most cases, are embrassing for professional footballers.
Proper into it as most would probably be able to tell.
What I actually do as well is watch the opposition warm up before the game. It tells you a lot more than you might realise. Cheltenham’s goals came from what they practiced in the warm up, attacking phase and pattern of play without opposition but focused on movement, communication, creating space for a team mate, getting the ball into a dangerous area of the pitch and finishing it, they changed it each time.
Teams will often change system and formation throughout the game. Football now has become very fluid and it’s even more demanding on the players because of it. It is though where it highlights the limitations of players and teams. Failure to be adaptable and keep up with the ‘trends’ of football tactics is where you will often find those teams struggling.
At the moment the trend and phase is a back 3 but it is not really a 3-5-2, it’s more a 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1 that is being used more. It allows teams to have dominance of the ball whilst keeping players high and wide and still having enough in the middle. Especially in a 3-4-2-1 you could have in theory almost 4 central midfielders, two defensive (one sitting, one breaking forward) and two offensive (expected to get close to the forward and also provide support to the wing-back who almost becomes a winger at times.
10 years ago it was 4-3-3 that jumped in and out of a 4-2-3-1. If you look, some teams will still play that way because it’s worked for them so well that the players are used to it. But more and more successful teams are playing with a back 3.
Bielsa for example, studied the Championship intensively before going to Leeds. His analysis was that the formation which would provide the highest chance of success, i.e promotion, was a 4-1-4-1. As they’ve progressed into the Premier League, he’s slowly started to use his 3-3-1-3 formation more often. This is because he has coached them for long enough and they understand his philosophy, but also because he recognises it to be more achievable in that league than it would’ve been before.
There are some excellent young managers coming through who have a clear philosophy and style but also look to be adaptable when the trends change, which they will again. It’s those who will be successful and get the good jobs in future. The ones who are too stubborn to change and stick to their ways will stay at a level for a prolonged period.
Football has moved on a lot. If you went by numbers, you now have positions which could be identified as a 9.5 or 10.5, for example. A number 4 in the modern game almost has to now be a 4.5, someone capable of dropping in and being another centre back but have the ability to pass and see the pictures that a creative number 10 should spot.
I love these things and could go on all night.
In my life time every system invented has been to get an extra man in midfield. Even George Graham's very negative 541 actually ment they had 3 or even 4 center mids as the full backs provided width so the "wingers" could tuck in.
I heard Neil Warnock saying he went to 3 at the back, for the first time in his career, at Boro, as it was the only we he could play two up front.
IMO the trend in youth football to play 433 or 4231 has produced very specific types of players. Who it could be argued are better at their primery role, but aren't as good all rounders. When your talking about league 1 players their weeknesses, in most cases, are embrassing for professional footballers.
good points about modern players' lacking all round abilities due to over specific coaching .. this also i m o leads to a lack of really fast and pacey midfielders, they rarely have to run anywhere as they are told to 'patrol' a specific small area of the pitch .. hence why versatile & quick players are in great demand and are worth ten times their weight in gold
I don't know anything about tactics but on Saturday Charlton were simply getting the ball and kicking it towards the centre forward while Cheltenham were trying to pass it around in little triangles and then break free and score.
Even I could see the teams were years apart in their approach to the game.
I usually look for the system at the kick off. Every team has a formation or system when in possession and when out of possession. For example 4-4-2 switches to 4-2-4 in attacking play, or 5-3-2 to 3-5-2. Most teams tend to line up in their system at the kick off. The BBC football page is very good. In the line ups for each game, they lay out the formation and adjust it if necessary.
To pick a system look for the defensive line. If the Right Centre Back has one other Centre Back to his left, it's a flat back four. If he has two to his left, it's a three man central defence. When out of possession, the two full backs drop in a line alongside the centre backs. In the 5-3-2 to 3-5-2 system they will push forward quickly as Wing Backs.
The characteristic of each system is governed by the style and ability of each individual in that system That will also determine whether a club uses a different system, like 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 which are more constant. So look to see if there are 2 Central Midfielders in front of the Centre Backs or just the one. Then decide whether there is one Centre forward, two strikers, or a Centre Forward with a number 10 playing just in behind him.
Every team should have a pattern of play that fits the system. For example, a short passing game through midfield, or an "up, back and through" style of play, into the Centre Forward to set up.the through ball.
When out of possession, most teams will either drop off to defend the 18 yard line, in a compact formation or push up as a team to defend high up the pitch and press the ball to suffocate the opposition and win the ball high up the pitch.
There are plenty of websites on systems, covering the 4-4-2 Diamond, 4-3-3, 4-4-1-1, 4-1-4-1, 3-4-3, Just put the system into google.
Tutt Tutt, you might disagree, but I posted on another thread, that I don’t think players at our level are good enough to play 4-2-3-1s and other modern formations that have crept in over the years.
Take Saturday. DJ and Kirk apparently too wide and not offering enough cover for the full backs. Watson and Morgan hopelessly overrun in the middle. Stockley, marooned up top. I’m not saying it won’t work, but I think it’s reserved for better players. It’s no disrespect to players at League One level, but I feel the most effective teams at this level just do 4-4-2 really well.
We had our diamond under Bowyer, but 3 of our midfielders that season were Cullen who had the energy and skill level to play in the middle 2 and cover the wing, break up the play, keep it simple. Bielik was a unit and Aribo class, all 3 of them capable of playing for decent championship teams imo, Aribo probably Prem. I look at our midfielders now, and probably only Arter has the pedigree to play in a formation of this type, although I’m pretty sure Bournemouth were 4-4-2. Even Burnley. They’re in the Premier League. It’s not attractive football, but I think Dyche knows he can’t faff about with anything other than 4-4-2, because of the players he has at his disposal. How the likes of Adkins and the Karl Robinson’s of this world think they can get away with 4-2-31/4-3-3 etc I’ll never know.
Not necessarily. I can't comment on Saturday as I wasn't there. There are coaches at the lower levels making the modern systems work. It's more a case of picking a system that suits the players you have,
As far down as the ninth level (Step 5), I saw a young coach called Harry Hudson, at Croydon FC in 2019, use the system previously employed by Guadiola at Bayern Munich, to great effect (where Phillip Lamn pushed forward diagonally from Right Back into Central Midfield as the playmaker). It totally bamboozled the opposition, whose coaches stood on the sideline and visibly struggled to work it out. The Right Back, Bradley Wilson, was a central midfielder adapted to play the role and he kept bringing the ball forward from Right Back into the central areas to create a 3 v 2. They were 3-0 up in the first half, before the opposition finally put a man-for-man on him. The opposition left winger was allowing him to get out, because they hadn't probably seen it used before. So anything is possible. Hudson has joined Glebe FC this season, and has Wilson with him after dropping down a couple of levels. It will be interesting to see how they go.
Bowyer used two systems to great effect in the Promotion year, 3-5-2 and the 4-4-2 diamond, and adapted very well from game to game, even changing at half time at Wembley. However, as you say, he had the quality of Bielik, Cullen and Aribo to call upon.
Thanks @Tutt Tutt for this post and your other reply to my question. It's a small world because the reason I didn't get a season ticket at Cafc this season (will still get to see Cafc on Mid week Charlton TV or certain home games) is I'm following Glebe and watching and listening near the dug out to see how one of the best young coaches about, sets up his team and will adapt to the situation of the match. Plus my son works for the *Kinetic foundation (Harry Hudson) who are trying to find more Omar Richards, Josh Maja, Joe Aribo, Kwadwo Baah, etc and my son is waiting to see who he can announce is the 50th scholar to sign a professional contract. Richards and Baah were released from Fulham and Palace respectively and Josh Maja spent time on trial at Palace, Fulham, Man City before he studied with Kinetic and then Sunderland is where he started to impress and scored 16 in 41 games before transferring to Bordeaux, back in the Premier on loan at Fulham last season.
Joe Aribo went from Kinetic to Staines for his first taste of adult football before coming into the U18 set up at Cafc.
Burnley definitely 4-4-2 (4-4-1-1 when out of possession) on their journey from League 1 to Premier. Bournemouth was hard to define because when they gave us a masterclass in that last game of the season, Wilson appeared to be the number 9, Yann the number 10 with Ritchie, Pugh, Arter, and even Simon Francis running us ragged. Yann was getting passes on the floor that day and just popping the ball to feet.
We are all armchair managers who have our ideas how to improve on what we see,obviously the guys doing the job are the ones qualified to do it and certainly would not welcome our advice.But sometimes things are glaringly obvious,you wonder what is going on in the dugout. 1)We were getting slaughtered at fullback from the off on saturday Kirk and DJ should not have needed telling they had to do more,but still no one corrected the situation. 2)Over run in midfield,why,still 11 v11,they always had men over,we just did not win the ball early enough in their half. 3)Lobbing the ball up to Stockley.now he is being marked tighter,not so much success,but,the centre backs didnt get clean headers and consquently the ball was usually just dropping loose anywhere,always picked up by them. 4)Solution to above,get the midfield more forward to get more of the knock downs,we should have enough men over as they were doubling up on Stockley. 5)Play more balls to Srockley chest high,give him the chance to control it or play it off first time to the now more forward midfield.
Comments
I heard Neil Warnock saying he went to 3 at the back, for the first time in his career, at Boro, as it was the only we he could play two up front.
IMO the trend in youth football to play 433 or 4231 has produced very specific types of players. Who it could be argued are better at their primery role, but aren't as good all rounders. When your talking about league 1 players their weeknesses, in most cases, are embrassing for professional footballers.
Even I could see the teams were years apart in their approach to the game.
Thanks @Tutt Tutt for this post and your other reply to my question. It's a small world because the reason I didn't get a season ticket at Cafc this season (will still get to see Cafc on Mid week Charlton TV or certain home games) is I'm following Glebe and watching and listening near the dug out to see how one of the best young coaches about, sets up his team and will adapt to the situation of the match. Plus my son works for the *Kinetic foundation (Harry Hudson) who are trying to find more Omar Richards, Josh Maja, Joe Aribo, Kwadwo Baah, etc and my son is waiting to see who he can announce is the 50th scholar to sign a professional contract. Richards and Baah were released from Fulham and Palace respectively and Josh Maja spent time on trial at Palace, Fulham, Man City before he studied with Kinetic and then Sunderland is where he started to impress and scored 16 in 41 games before transferring to Bordeaux, back in the Premier on loan at Fulham last season.
Joe Aribo went from Kinetic to Staines for his first taste of adult football before coming into the U18 set up at Cafc.
Burnley definitely 4-4-2 (4-4-1-1 when out of possession) on their journey from League 1 to Premier.
Bournemouth was hard to define because when they gave us a masterclass in that last game of the season, Wilson appeared to be the number 9, Yann the number 10 with Ritchie, Pugh, Arter, and even Simon Francis running us ragged. Yann was getting passes on the floor that day and just popping the ball to feet.
1)We were getting slaughtered at fullback from the off on saturday Kirk and DJ should not have needed telling they had to do more,but still no one corrected the situation.
2)Over run in midfield,why,still 11 v11,they always had men over,we just did not win the ball early enough in their half.
3)Lobbing the ball up to Stockley.now he is being marked tighter,not so much success,but,the centre backs didnt get clean headers and consquently the ball was usually just dropping loose anywhere,always picked up by them.
4)Solution to above,get the midfield more forward to get more of the knock downs,we should have enough men over as they were doubling up on Stockley.
5)Play more balls to Srockley chest high,give him the chance to control it or play it off first time to the now more forward midfield.
Easy aint it.