One very poor result and performance and it’s all doom and gloom. Jacko has still massively improved things, we were good against Norwich and he is utterly hamstrung by a midfield that doesn’t create , a chronic lack of strikers - I genuinely think Stockley is our only good one - and a ridiculous lack of balance that has left us with numerous centre halves and wingers and no depth anywhere else . I view this as like Powell’s first 6 months .
Another way to ask the same question is - who would Powell and Bowyer have selected from this squad for their promotion winning teams in 2012 and 2019?
Drop Cullen for Dobson? Drop BWP for Washington? Drop Kermogant or Lyle Taylor, for Stockley? Drop Morrison or Bauer for Lavelle or Innis? Drop Jackson for Gilbey? Drop Williams or Stephens for Lee? Drop Naby or Matt Taylor for Famweo? Drop Solly for Mathews?
I would guess only Purrington would make the grade and he was there in 2019. Maybe Washington might get the nod over Josh Parker or maybe Dobson over Hollands. The rest would be some way off. This is all a direct result of instability and under investment at the club. We attracted some quality signings in 2018 and 2019 because of the personal reputation of Bowyer as a former top player.
Let's not forget that club captain Pearce was actually a reserve at Wembley in 2019 and thought a bit slow back then.
I suspect Mr Sandgaard (senior and junior) are looking for bargains and young talent on the cheap but if it was that easy, everyone would be doing it, as Roland found out the hard way.
Having said all that as @JamesSeed pointed out, how can the same players make Norwich City look rubbish for 75 minutes on Sunday and then get outplayed by Crewe on Wednesday?
Another way to ask the same question is - who would Powell and Bowyer have selected from this squad for their promotion winning teams in 2012 and 2019?
Drop Cullen for Dobson? Drop BWP for Washington? Drop Kermogant or Lyle Taylor, for Stockley? Drop Morrison or Bauer for Lavelle or Innis? Drop Jackson for Gilbey? Drop Williams or Stephens for Lee? Drop Naby or Matt Taylor for Famweo? Drop Solly for Mathews?
I would guess only Purrington would make the grade and he was there in 2019. Maybe Washington might get the nod over Josh Parker or maybe Dobson over Hollands. The rest would be some way off. This is all a direct result of instability and under investment at the club. We attracted some quality signings in 2018 and 2019 because of the personal reputation of Bowyer as a former top player.
Let's not forget that club captain Pearce was actually a reserve at Wembley in 2019 and thought a bit slow back then.
I suspect Mr Sandgaard (senior and junior) are looking for bargains and young talent on the cheap but if it was that easy, everyone would be doing it, as Roland found out the hard way.
Having said all that as @JamesSeed pointed out, how can the same players make Norwich City look rubbish for 75 minutes on Sunday and then get outplayed by Crewe on Wednesday?
Good points
Other than Purrington. Early Wiggins was vastly superior .
When you compare this team with the Bowyer play off winning team man for man, that side would smash the absolute granny out of this current crop. We're a long way from challenging for promotion.
The best comparison you can have really spot on - we are pony.
Look at how Wigan Athletic approached this season compared with us. Every signing improved their squad for Championship football next season. Do they have more money than Sandgaard? Could TS not have brought in these players or better? Yes looking at the promotion squad we had with Bowyer that squad had quality all over the park. Defence the middle and upfront. If you were playing in that side you would have confidence in every teammate to deliver. Lots of winners and a handful of leaders. I'm not convinced we have enough. But a Bauer or Lockyer signing, a Lyle Taylor or Hunt or Mendonca signing, and a kinsella in the middle would possibly be enough to raise the rest of them to the level and mentality to get out this league. This season is over. Can we really see JJ turning it into promotion next season? Normally teams finish very strongly and the following season make it to playoffs or automatics. Let us hope this is how this season ends. Otherwise we are looking at 2 more seasons down here.
I can’t work it out mate. 6 weeks ago I thought we had a team that had been massively underperforming but had finally started to click. I thought the basis was there, competing with Rotherham and Sunderland, smashing Plymouth, Doncaster and Ipswich. We’d find the right tempo to play at, tightened defensively and looked like scoring goals. It was set up for a strong second half finish where I expected us to be the one in the play offs everyone else would want to avoid.
All those aspects seem seem to have gone in a space of weeks. To the extent the season is effectively over.
Im not going to lash out blaming people but it just doesn’t make sense. It can’t just be Stockley missing.
Simple ~ a pressure-free role as a Temporary manager was suddenly made a permanent pressure-filled role. Look at the results prior to this mistake and look at the results post this mistake.
I think it's more of a case of the players giving 105% to get Jacko the job. Now they've dropped to 95% and it makes a massive difference. I think this is what Sandgaard feared would happen, and why he took so long to make it a permanent appointment. Additionally a team such as us, who do not score goals at the best of times, simply cannot function without Stockley, and now Washington also. If you cannot score a goal, you're going to draw or lose and that is what is now happening. Had we had a decent backup for Stockley, I think we might have kept the run going. Small margins, and I think we are not as far off as many are suggesting. Players such as Lee, Dobson, Clare, Inniss, Stockley, Washington, MacG, Gilbey, could certainly cut it in the Championship IMO, but ATM, a player such as Lee, is trying too hard to make things happen, because we are so toothless without Stockley.
MacGivillary - yes Henderson - no AMB - maybe Clare - yes Purrington - yes Matthews - no Gunter - no Pearce - no Inniss - not sure, depends on injuries Lavelle - not sure Famewo - not sure Souare - no
Dobson - yes JFC - not sure, depends on how he returns from his injury Gilbey - yes Lee - yes Kirk - no Morgan - no DJ - no CBT - no Leko - no
Watson - no
Washington - yes Stockley - yes Davison - no Burstow - yes
This shows that we will need to sign a lot of new players - yet again it’s going to be another squad rebuild 🤦🏻♀️
Agree with pretty much all of this. Great summary.
Benjy posted an article last year about our squad (this was one that included Chuks). He said it was basically a squad of squad players.
I think if anything we're even worse in that regard to last year. We have a squad of players. None of who are terrible. None of who elevate themselves above and drag the team up to their level. You need maybe 3/4 of them to mount a proper promotion challenge. Stockley could be one. Innis if fit another. Dobson I like but he's a water carrier. Him doing his job isn't going to elevate the team to greater things. More that him having a poor game does the opposite.
I think we're only 3/4 players off a genuinely really good team to push for promotion. The problem is those missing 4 players are probably the key ones that need to be the standout players, not just another 4 bodies in the building, otherwise we'll be having the same conversation another year along.
One thing I cant have is anyone questioning Elliott Lee. His dead ball delivery, work rate, the fact he always receives the ball and asks for it be that in tight spots or not, players like him at this level are as rare as rocking horse shit. We need to show faith in him and keep faith.
His finishing has been below his own standard but fact is, he always gets in the box. Something our midfield need to be doing a lot more than they currently are. Relying on Stockley being the man who tucks away everything in the box is lunacy, Stockley should be the deciding factor in tight games and is always a threat but our midfield have to bust a gut more often to get in the space between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. Lee Bowyer, Frank Lampard, Jacko are 3 players who kept their places in teams and their goal tally decent by occupying those areas as well as showing a desire to actually attack the ball and get there first. Inniss, Pearce and Famewo would do well to watch some footage of how their boss used to attack the ball in the air in the opposition penalty area
Benjy posted an article last year about our squad (this was one that included Chuks). He said it was basically a squad of squad players.
I think if anything we're even worse in that regard to last year. We have a squad of players. None of who are terrible. None of who elevate themselves above and drag the team up to their level. You need maybe 3/4 of them to mount a proper promotion challenge. Stockley could be one. Innis if fit another. Dobson I like but he's a water carrier. Him doing his job isn't going to elevate the team to greater things. More that him having a poor game does the opposite.
I think we're only 3/4 players off a genuinely really good team to push for promotion. The problem is those missing 4 players are probably the key ones that need to be the standout players, not just another 4 bodies in the building, otherwise we'll be having the same conversation another year along.
Last season that was bob on, I said it multiple times that all we had to do to have a real crack at promotion this season was to keep last seasons squad, get rid of the 5 most useless (ie the ones that have least use, I don't think of them were awful) and replace them with better, more useful, players and the rest would be alright. And really we did the second part.
Pratley - Dobson Shinnie - Lee Smith - Clare Desji - Lavelle Ronnie - Leko
If that's all we had done we would probably be there or there abouts for the play offs. But we also lost 5 of our best players, this is the problem, we only really replaced 1 of them!
Amos - MacGillivray Millar - Kirk JFC - Arter Chucks - Davison Maatsen - Pape
That's the problem right there.
This summer we still need the 4 first team players we didn't replace last season AND to replace the old, infirm and bad apples. Even if we can keep our better squad players that are ooc Purrington, Washington etc that's still about 13 players we need between now and August. If history is anything to go on I don't really fancy our chances tbh.
One thing I cant have is anyone questioning Elliott Lee. His dead ball delivery, work rate, the fact he always receives the ball and asks for it be that in tight spots or not, players like him at this level are as rare as rocking horse shit. We need to show faith in him and keep faith.
His finishing has been below his own standard but fact is, he always gets in the box. Something our midfield need to be doing a lot more than they currently are. Relying on Stockley being the man who tucks away everything in the box is lunacy, Stockley should be the deciding factor in tight games and is always a threat but our midfield have to bust a gut more often to get in the space between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. Lee Bowyer, Frank Lampard, Jacko are 3 players who kept their places in teams and their goal tally decent by occupying those areas as well as showing a desire to actually attack the ball and get there first. Inniss, Pearce and Famewo would do well to watch some footage of how their boss used to attack the ball in the air in the opposition penalty area
I like Lee but his dead ball delivery is utterly abysmal.
One thing I cant have is anyone questioning Elliott Lee. His dead ball delivery, work rate, the fact he always receives the ball and asks for it be that in tight spots or not, players like him at this level are as rare as rocking horse shit. We need to show faith in him and keep faith.
His finishing has been below his own standard but fact is, he always gets in the box. Something our midfield need to be doing a lot more than they currently are. Relying on Stockley being the man who tucks away everything in the box is lunacy, Stockley should be the deciding factor in tight games and is always a threat but our midfield have to bust a gut more often to get in the space between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. Lee Bowyer, Frank Lampard, Jacko are 3 players who kept their places in teams and their goal tally decent by occupying those areas as well as showing a desire to actually attack the ball and get there first. Inniss, Pearce and Famewo would do well to watch some footage of how their boss used to attack the ball in the air in the opposition penalty area
Every great Charlton side that I can remember has had at least one special talent from the academy at its heart. I know it's stating the bleeding obvious but we desperately need to unearth that player (or even better those players plural) and build a squad around them. If we do we have every chance to kick on from this league quicker than than the pessimists on here believe.
One thing I cant have is anyone questioning Elliott Lee. His dead ball delivery, work rate, the fact he always receives the ball and asks for it be that in tight spots or not, players like him at this level are as rare as rocking horse shit. We need to show faith in him and keep faith.
His finishing has been below his own standard but fact is, he always gets in the box. Something our midfield need to be doing a lot more than they currently are. Relying on Stockley being the man who tucks away everything in the box is lunacy, Stockley should be the deciding factor in tight games and is always a threat but our midfield have to bust a gut more often to get in the space between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. Lee Bowyer, Frank Lampard, Jacko are 3 players who kept their places in teams and their goal tally decent by occupying those areas as well as showing a desire to actually attack the ball and get there first. Inniss, Pearce and Famewo would do well to watch some footage of how their boss used to attack the ball in the air in the opposition penalty area
Started the season well, been poor for 2+ months now. We must get better for next season if we're serious about going up.
One thing I cant have is anyone questioning Elliott Lee. His dead ball delivery, work rate, the fact he always receives the ball and asks for it be that in tight spots or not, players like him at this level are as rare as rocking horse shit. We need to show faith in him and keep faith.
His finishing has been below his own standard but fact is, he always gets in the box. Something our midfield need to be doing a lot more than they currently are. Relying on Stockley being the man who tucks away everything in the box is lunacy, Stockley should be the deciding factor in tight games and is always a threat but our midfield have to bust a gut more often to get in the space between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. Lee Bowyer, Frank Lampard, Jacko are 3 players who kept their places in teams and their goal tally decent by occupying those areas as well as showing a desire to actually attack the ball and get there first. Inniss, Pearce and Famewo would do well to watch some footage of how their boss used to attack the ball in the air in the opposition penalty area
Started the season well, been poor for 2+ months now. We must get better for next season if we're serious about going up.
Lee is possibly another smaller player that don't perform as well on heavy pitches.
For a first eleven in a 3 5 2 to hit that top two I reckon we need two central defenders to play with Famewo, right and left wing backs, a creative midfielder (or two) and a goalscorer.
But for top ten with a shot at top six I would say the wing backs and a goalscorer.
One very poor result and performance and it’s all doom and gloom. Jacko has still massively improved things, we were good against Norwich and he is utterly hamstrung by a midfield that doesn’t create , a chronic lack of strikers - I genuinely think Stockley is our only good one - and a ridiculous lack of balance that has left us with numerous centre halves and wingers and no depth anywhere else . I view this as like Powell’s first 6 months .
Benjy posted an article last year about our squad (this was one that included Chuks). He said it was basically a squad of squad players.
I think if anything we're even worse in that regard to last year. We have a squad of players. None of who are terrible. None of who elevate themselves above and drag the team up to their level. You need maybe 3/4 of them to mount a proper promotion challenge. Stockley could be one. Innis if fit another. Dobson I like but he's a water carrier. Him doing his job isn't going to elevate the team to greater things. More that him having a poor game does the opposite.
I think we're only 3/4 players off a genuinely really good team to push for promotion. The problem is those missing 4 players are probably the key ones that need to be the standout players, not just another 4 bodies in the building, otherwise we'll be having the same conversation another year along.
It will depend on Jackson and if he will stick with his current system or opt for something else.
Of course we need a goalscorer and to get a settled strike partnership consistent settled back 3/4.
But ultimately our biggest weakness is midfield. Compared to what we had previously and the balance. We struggle to win and keep possession against very average poor teams ultimately giving fouls away leading to conceding goals.
I expect wide players to be inconsistent at times but can't afford having your whole midfield being 2nd best to everything.
One thing I cant have is anyone questioning Elliott Lee. His dead ball delivery, work rate, the fact he always receives the ball and asks for it be that in tight spots or not, players like him at this level are as rare as rocking horse shit. We need to show faith in him and keep faith.
His finishing has been below his own standard but fact is, he always gets in the box. Something our midfield need to be doing a lot more than they currently are. Relying on Stockley being the man who tucks away everything in the box is lunacy, Stockley should be the deciding factor in tight games and is always a threat but our midfield have to bust a gut more often to get in the space between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. Lee Bowyer, Frank Lampard, Jacko are 3 players who kept their places in teams and their goal tally decent by occupying those areas as well as showing a desire to actually attack the ball and get there first. Inniss, Pearce and Famewo would do well to watch some footage of how their boss used to attack the ball in the air in the opposition penalty area
I assume that's a joke?
Like every player who has ever stood over a dead ball he hits a few turkeys, he wouldn't be aying in division 3 if he got them all right. He gets whip on the ball which is hard to do and keep elevation on the ball AND get it away from the goalkeeper.
I dont think we have anyone better at dead balls than Lee, Morgan can hit a decent dead ball as well but Lee is a level up
One thing I cant have is anyone questioning Elliott Lee. His dead ball delivery, work rate, the fact he always receives the ball and asks for it be that in tight spots or not, players like him at this level are as rare as rocking horse shit. We need to show faith in him and keep faith.
His finishing has been below his own standard but fact is, he always gets in the box. Something our midfield need to be doing a lot more than they currently are. Relying on Stockley being the man who tucks away everything in the box is lunacy, Stockley should be the deciding factor in tight games and is always a threat but our midfield have to bust a gut more often to get in the space between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. Lee Bowyer, Frank Lampard, Jacko are 3 players who kept their places in teams and their goal tally decent by occupying those areas as well as showing a desire to actually attack the ball and get there first. Inniss, Pearce and Famewo would do well to watch some footage of how their boss used to attack the ball in the air in the opposition penalty area
I assume that's a joke?
Like every player who has ever stood over a dead ball he hits a few turkeys, he wouldn't be aying in division 3 if he got them all right. He gets whip on the ball which is hard to do and keep elevation on the ball AND get it away from the goalkeeper.
I dont think we have anyone better at dead balls than Lee, Morgan can hit a decent dead ball as well but Lee is a level up
Most teams in L1 have a better dead ball specialists than Lee unfortunately. Remember the previously unheralded Pell? When have we last had someone who can strike the ball like that? I like Lee, but too many free kicks and corners go wasted.
Benjy posted an article last year about our squad (this was one that included Chuks). He said it was basically a squad of squad players.
I think if anything we're even worse in that regard to last year. We have a squad of players. None of who are terrible. None of who elevate themselves above and drag the team up to their level. You need maybe 3/4 of them to mount a proper promotion challenge. Stockley could be one. Innis if fit another. Dobson I like but he's a water carrier. Him doing his job isn't going to elevate the team to greater things. More that him having a poor game does the opposite.
I think we're only 3/4 players off a genuinely really good team to push for promotion. The problem is those missing 4 players are probably the key ones that need to be the standout players, not just another 4 bodies in the building, otherwise we'll be having the same conversation another year along.
Looks better already, get JFC fit and we might get to this summer just 2 first team players worse off than last year.
Get Purrington and Washington signed up again and if JFC is looking good him too, then the summer recruitment drive can focus on quality rather than quantity (well just about, still a few too many out of contract)
Comments
massively improved things, we were good against Norwich and he is utterly hamstrung by a midfield that doesn’t create , a chronic lack of strikers - I genuinely think Stockley is our only good one - and a ridiculous lack of balance that has left us with numerous centre halves and wingers and no depth anywhere else . I view this as like Powell’s first 6 months .
I'm not convinced we have enough. But a Bauer or Lockyer signing, a Lyle Taylor or Hunt or Mendonca signing, and a kinsella in the middle would possibly be enough to raise the rest of them to the level and mentality to get out this league.
This season is over. Can we really see JJ turning it into promotion next season? Normally teams finish very strongly and the following season make it to playoffs or automatics. Let us hope this is how this season ends. Otherwise we are looking at 2 more seasons down here.
Now they've dropped to 95% and it makes a massive difference. I think this is what Sandgaard feared would happen, and why he took so long to make it a permanent appointment.
Additionally a team such as us, who do not score goals at the best of times, simply cannot function without Stockley, and now Washington also. If you cannot score a goal, you're going to draw or lose and that is what is now happening.
Had we had a decent backup for Stockley, I think we might have kept the run going.
Small margins, and I think we are not as far off as many are suggesting.
Players such as Lee, Dobson, Clare, Inniss, Stockley, Washington, MacG, Gilbey, could certainly cut it in the Championship IMO, but ATM, a player such as Lee, is trying too hard to make things happen, because we are so toothless without Stockley.
Great summary.
I think if anything we're even worse in that regard to last year. We have a squad of players. None of who are terrible. None of who elevate themselves above and drag the team up to their level. You need maybe 3/4 of them to mount a proper promotion challenge. Stockley could be one. Innis if fit another. Dobson I like but he's a water carrier. Him doing his job isn't going to elevate the team to greater things. More that him having a poor game does the opposite.
I think we're only 3/4 players off a genuinely really good team to push for promotion. The problem is those missing 4 players are probably the key ones that need to be the standout players, not just another 4 bodies in the building, otherwise we'll be having the same conversation another year along.
His finishing has been below his own standard but fact is, he always gets in the box. Something our midfield need to be doing a lot more than they currently are. Relying on Stockley being the man who tucks away everything in the box is lunacy, Stockley should be the deciding factor in tight games and is always a threat but our midfield have to bust a gut more often to get in the space between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. Lee Bowyer, Frank Lampard, Jacko are 3 players who kept their places in teams and their goal tally decent by occupying those areas as well as showing a desire to actually attack the ball and get there first. Inniss, Pearce and Famewo would do well to watch some footage of how their boss used to attack the ball in the air in the opposition penalty area
Pratley - Dobson
Shinnie - Lee
Smith - Clare
Desji - Lavelle
Ronnie - Leko
If that's all we had done we would probably be there or there abouts for the play offs. But we also lost 5 of our best players, this is the problem, we only really replaced 1 of them!
Amos - MacGillivray
Millar - Kirk
JFC - Arter
Chucks - Davison
Maatsen - Pape
That's the problem right there.
This summer we still need the 4 first team players we didn't replace last season AND to replace the old, infirm and bad apples. Even if we can keep our better squad players that are ooc Purrington, Washington etc that's still about 13 players we need between now and August. If history is anything to go on I don't really fancy our chances tbh.
If he wasn't Rob Lee's son no-one would bat an eyelid at him.
Of course we need a goalscorer and to get a settled strike partnership consistent settled back 3/4.
But ultimately our biggest weakness is midfield. Compared to what we had previously and the balance. We struggle to win and keep possession against very average poor teams ultimately giving fouls away leading to conceding goals.
I expect wide players to be inconsistent at times but can't afford having your whole midfield being 2nd best to everything.
2 seasons of being a fringe/squad player then loaned back out to L1 suggests L1 is his level
I dont think we have anyone better at dead balls than Lee, Morgan can hit a decent dead ball as well but Lee is a level up
I like Lee, but too many free kicks and corners go wasted.
Get Purrington and Washington signed up again and if JFC is looking good him too, then the summer recruitment drive can focus on quality rather than quantity (well just about, still a few too many out of contract)