I think it is a fashion. It is very interesting how fashion works but I would be happier if the fashion changed as it usually does at some point. CAFCfan showed a picture of his car and it certainly isn't as ugly as some SUVs which seem very generic but the point wasn't about picking one car and a general one. I would say as we are talking about Fiat 128s, his car seems to take a styling cue from the 128 coupe only it is probably 3 or 4 times bigger.
@Rob7Lee Slightly odd to try and de-couple build quality and reliability. I venture to suggest that you might have been dazzled in your earlier years by the brilliant VW advertising ( from the agency I worked at) which fed you the idea “If only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen”. When I came to the Prague agency I started working with the VW people - got on very well with one of the young Germans who had been sent to Prague - and tried to persuade them to run the British campaign. I couldnt get to the bottom of their reluctance until on one of many drunken evenings he admitted that the campaign claim made them nervous in Wolfsburg becauše they knew they were not delivering on it. Then in 95 I went and bought the funky new 3 door Toyota RAV4. I had two later models of that too ( yes an SUV!) And I quickly realised that that VW campaign line should have been written for Toyota.
I'd put VW at the lower end of German cars, above say a Vauxhall or Ford but only just. Toyota are IMHO in the same area as VW, engine's probably slightly better if anything.
I have a Nissan X-trail so it’s an SUV. The engine size is 1.3 so hardly a gas guzzler. I just hope they know what’s what and don’t just target SUV’s that they think are gas guzzlers
Just out of interest, I'm not attacking you, but why do you have an SUV? Do you do off-road driving?
On a technical point, what law does letting down tyres of a stationary or parked vehicle break?
No one specific law apparently but several different charges can be laid against those who do it, i.e. Criminal damage or something called "the road traffic act 1988" : "A person is guilty of an offence if he intentionally and without lawful authority or reasonable cause ... interferes with a motor vehicle, trailer or cycle."
Not saying it's a good defence, but there's their defence - saving the homes of people in the Maldives, for example, is a reasonable cause.
Bloody arseholes, i have never understood why there is such support for criminals by some (same) quarters on this forum, perhaps when something like this effects them they may have a different view.
"Such support". You mean a handful of people who suggest that there may be other responses than the "I hope I catch them at it I'd give them what for" type of response that always crops up when things like this get raised? I thought the posts by Seth, KingK and Muttley contained clear and reasonable arguments.
Yes, bizarre behaviour to stick up for criminals, no wonder this country is just a soft touch. Bang em up for 10 years, they wont do it again, and bang the sympathizers up with them for the same period.
Where do you stand on the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the Suffragettes/Suffragists?
Bloody arseholes, i have never understood why there is such support for criminals by some (same) quarters on this forum, perhaps when something like this effects them they may have a different view.
"Such support". You mean a handful of people who suggest that there may be other responses than the "I hope I catch them at it I'd give them what for" type of response that always crops up when things like this get raised? I thought the posts by Seth, KingK and Muttley contained clear and reasonable arguments.
Yes, bizarre behaviour to stick up for criminals, no wonder this country is just a soft touch. Bang em up for 10 years, they wont do it again, and bang the sympathizers up with them for the same period.
Where do you stand on the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the Suffragettes/Suffragists?
I was a tolpudfle martyr. Nice village. Moved to Hackney broke the law got 2 weeks in the Seychelles and a grand spending money.
Hi @MuttleyCAFC, I wasn't sure, but think you may have confused my piece of shit - the Fiat 128 - with the larger 124, which Lada made the East European medium saloon workhorse. The 128 was smaller. Here's the Lada Wiki page. Check the VAZ 2101. The 4WD thing is called a Niva (not Riva), and unquestionably still respected by those who need a 4WD for serious reasons.
For those interested, I highly recommend this Czech-directed film called The Russian Job. It's all about AutoVaz, where Ladas are made, and how in 2017 a Swedish crisis manager was brought in (by Renault who had taken a stake in it) to try and whack it into shape. Basically you see how corruption, industrial scale theft at every level is endemic to the operation and he is eventually defeated. I have been thinking about it when reading the stories about the true state of the Russian military hardware in Ukraine. Watch this film and you'll have an insight into why these stories are highly credible.
Bit disappointed to see @AddicksAddict liking this trite jibe, since he at least knows how the Valley Party was successful. The VP campaign came from the same agency, at the same time, as the VW campaign, and nobody called that lying shite.
Again for those interested; Well crafted campaigns involve first listening carefully to what target audiences currently believe, and basically seek to either reinforce positive beliefs or change negative ones. One of my favourite ever ads is the 1979 Golf one which affectionately takes the piss out of the Japanese. It was built on a perception British people already had about German stuff generally (and which still holds true today, look around the average middle-class household and spot the German brands). The situation was, the Japanese were getting their act together in the factories, but not in their marketing departments. VAG UK (including Audi) had a legendary marketing guy called John Mezcaros who was brave enough to sign off on campaigns like this and "Vorsprung durch technik" and the Japanese had gofers. So of course VW pressed home the advantage as long as they could of the *perception* that German stuff is built better.
I have a Nissan X-trail so it’s an SUV. The engine size is 1.3 so hardly a gas guzzler. I just hope they know what’s what and don’t just target SUV’s that they think are gas guzzlers
Just out of interest, I'm not attacking you, but why do you have an SUV? Do you do off-road driving?
Most SUV's aren't built for off roading.
EDIT: I think people are getting hung up on the term SUV. A large proportion of SUV's are no more than a taller car. Back to what I said earlier, a lot of them aren't any wider and are often shorter than an estate car, they're just taller.
I have a Nissan X-trail so it’s an SUV. The engine size is 1.3 so hardly a gas guzzler. I just hope they know what’s what and don’t just target SUV’s that they think are gas guzzlers
Just out of interest, I'm not attacking you, but why do you have an SUV? Do you do off-road driving?
Most SUV's aren't built for off roading.
EDIT: I think people are getting hung up on the term SUV. A large proportion of SUV's are no more than a taller car. Back to what I said earlier, a lot of them aren't any wider and are often shorter than an estate car, they're just taller.
I *think* I have an SUV. It’s a Skoda Yeti, ‘probably the best car, in the world’ (Jeremy Clarkson).
I like a car with a slightly higher riding position. Having used many rental cars over the years, the lower the riding position, the more I had issues with my back. Plus you can get a fridge freezer in the back, and it’s nowhere near as big as a Range Rover, many of which clog up the streets around where I live.
Advertising isn’t about outright lying, after all there are even rules to rein that kind of thing in. I don’t believe that 95% of advertising is about being informative either. The question remains for me what is it for, and the conclusion I come back to is attempting to wrest control from your capacity to think for yourself. Why use the word ‘only’ in something like ‘only £99.99’, or ‘just’ for that matter. Adjectives generally can be scattered around that are unprovable. Charlton do it for example when they assert there will be a ‘delicious’ three course lunch on match days. My response is ‘delicious who says, according to what?’ I mean a scantily clad person striding purposefully through an oak panelled room scattering diamonds to advertise scent, what’s that all about? Attached to a slogan like ‘ascend to freedom’ accompanied by a dramatic chord or whatever. Really? Lies…no. Informative…no. Manipulative (therefore very suspect)…yes. There is some credence in advertising introducing something that hasn’t been around before…but how many actual blades does a razor really fecking need…then described as some kind of breakthrough! Some say there is artistic merit in adverts, or humour. Of course there is, but ask yourself why, a free gift for the common cultural good? Where MacDonalds even describe their unadulterated shyte as a ‘meal’? I believe advertisers want to do your thinking for you, and therefore must be analysed to the nth degree in order to resist.
Hi @MuttleyCAFC, I wasn't sure, but think you may have confused my piece of shit - the Fiat 128 - with the larger 124, which Lada made the East European medium saloon workhorse. The 128 was smaller. Here's the Lada Wiki page. Check the VAZ 2101. The 4WD thing is called a Niva (not Riva), and unquestionably still respected by those who need a 4WD for serious reasons.
For those interested, I highly recommend this Czech-directed film called The Russian Job. It's all about AutoVaz, where Ladas are made, and how in 2017 a Swedish crisis manager was brought in (by Renault who had taken a stake in it) to try and whack it into shape. Basically you see how corruption, industrial scale theft at every level is endemic to the operation and he is eventually defeated. I have been thinking about it when reading the stories about the true state of the Russian military hardware in Ukraine. Watch this film and you'll have an insight into why these stories are highly credible.
No, the 128 won car of the year 1970 and was a pathfinder in many elements of its design. The 124 was the car the Lada Riva was based on. But of course that shouldn't be held against it as it has to be judged in the context of when it was designed.
Advertising isn’t about outright lying, after all there are even rules to rein that kind of thing in. I don’t believe that 95% of advertising is about being informative either. The question remains for me what is it for, and the conclusion I come back to is attempting to wrest control from your capacity to think for yourself. Why use the word ‘only’ in something like ‘only £99.99’, or ‘just’ for that matter. Adjectives generally can be scattered around that are unprovable. Charlton do it for example when they assert there will be a ‘delicious’ three course lunch on match days. My response is ‘delicious who says, according to what?’ I mean a scantily clad person striding purposefully through an oak panelled room scattering diamonds to advertise scent, what’s that all about? Attached to a slogan like ‘ascend to freedom’ accompanied by a dramatic chord or whatever. Really? Lies…no. Informative…no. Manipulative (therefore very suspect)…yes. There is some credence in advertising introducing something that hasn’t been around before…but how many actual blades does a razor really fecking need…then described as some kind of breakthrough! Some say there is artistic merit in adverts, or humour. Of course there is, but ask yourself why, a free gift for the common cultural good? Where MacDonalds even describe their unadulterated shyte as a ‘meal’? I believe advertisers want to do your thinking for you, and therefore must be analysed to the nth degree in order to resist.
The consumer needs to be informed of a new product or service, otherwise they would not know it existed. Very few products or services are without competition, so once informed the consumer needs to be persuaded that the product or service being advertised is the better choice amongst the competition - either on quality, value or choice (real or perceived) and this is the bit where the advertiser is helping the customer make the choice amongst the competition - it also includes things like 'lifestyle' which although most would say bollox to that it does persuade. Finally consumers need to be constantly reminded of the product, else they would forget about it.
An essential product with a total monopoly wouldn't need anything other than inform. But we don't live in that world, Seth.
Manufacturers can legally build and sell SUVs - as a consumer I can legally purchase an SUV and accept the reduction in fuel efficiency and the added costs for as an example road fund licence (and the cost of tyres!). If that has to change then it is for Government to lead and to make the above conditions unlawful.
However there is a big difference between disruption by a protestor gluing themselves to a motorway (pain in the arse if you're stuck in traffic) and tampering with personal property that is legally owned and used.
Governments only look as far as the next election 4-5 years, hence no solutions to energy, social care, pollution, education, deaths from long term conditions eg lung conditions caused by smoking (as opposed to covid where they are culpable in a short time frame), deaths from road traffic "accidents" (mainly bad driving). Banning SUV's would lose too many votes. Road pricing is clearly the answer to many issues- getting people to cycle/walk, reduce pollution, and reduce road congestion, possibly diminish CO2 warming- but a vote loser.It aint going to happen until we are all choking.
I have a Nissan X-trail so it’s an SUV. The engine size is 1.3 so hardly a gas guzzler. I just hope they know what’s what and don’t just target SUV’s that they think are gas guzzlers
Just out of interest, I'm not attacking you, but why do you have an SUV? Do you do off-road driving?
Most SUV's aren't built for off roading.
EDIT: I think people are getting hung up on the term SUV. A large proportion of SUV's are no more than a taller car. Back to what I said earlier, a lot of them aren't any wider and are often shorter than an estate car, they're just taller.
I *think* I have an SUV. It’s a Skoda Yeti, ‘probably the best car, in the world’ (Jeremy Clarkson).
I like a car with a slightly higher riding position. Having used many rental cars over the years, the lower the riding position, the more I had issues with my back. Plus you can get a fridge freezer in the back, and it’s nowhere near as big as a Range Rover, many of which clog up the streets around where I live.
Yup, and a yeti is smaller (except hight) that a lot of 'cars'.
Thats why I say people are getting too hung up on the term SUV. Theres really only a handful that are truly large, and even say a range rover is only around 20cm longer than a Vauxhall insignia estate and not any wider, but don't see people with issues with the Insignia.
I used to have a Land Rover Discovery (3) some years back. It seemed so big - but again was shorter than some estate cars such as the insignia, but ask most people and they'd say it was huge.
The vast majority of SUV's aren't big other than in height compared to a decent sized car, in fact as you've found with the Yeti they are often much smaller.
Advertising isn’t about outright lying, after all there are even rules to rein that kind of thing in. I don’t believe that 95% of advertising is about being informative either. The question remains for me what is it for, and the conclusion I come back to is attempting to wrest control from your capacity to think for yourself. Why use the word ‘only’ in something like ‘only £99.99’, or ‘just’ for that matter. Adjectives generally can be scattered around that are unprovable. Charlton do it for example when they assert there will be a ‘delicious’ three course lunch on match days. My response is ‘delicious who says, according to what?’ I mean a scantily clad person striding purposefully through an oak panelled room scattering diamonds to advertise scent, what’s that all about? Attached to a slogan like ‘ascend to freedom’ accompanied by a dramatic chord or whatever. Really? Lies…no. Informative…no. Manipulative (therefore very suspect)…yes. There is some credence in advertising introducing something that hasn’t been around before…but how many actual blades does a razor really fecking need…then described as some kind of breakthrough! Some say there is artistic merit in adverts, or humour. Of course there is, but ask yourself why, a free gift for the common cultural good? Where MacDonalds even describe their unadulterated shyte as a ‘meal’? I believe advertisers want to do your thinking for you, and therefore must be analysed to the nth degree in order to resist.
One classic example is car manufacturers stating a vehicle has been voted “car of the year” etc…….well by whom exactly? Bonafide motoring organisations, customers who have purchased one, the sales team that sell them or the ladies in the assembly plant cafeteria who just liked the lovely new colour range?
Advertising isn’t about outright lying, after all there are even rules to rein that kind of thing in. I don’t believe that 95% of advertising is about being informative either. The question remains for me what is it for, and the conclusion I come back to is attempting to wrest control from your capacity to think for yourself. Why use the word ‘only’ in something like ‘only £99.99’, or ‘just’ for that matter. Adjectives generally can be scattered around that are unprovable. Charlton do it for example when they assert there will be a ‘delicious’ three course lunch on match days. My response is ‘delicious who says, according to what?’ I mean a scantily clad person striding purposefully through an oak panelled room scattering diamonds to advertise scent, what’s that all about? Attached to a slogan like ‘ascend to freedom’ accompanied by a dramatic chord or whatever. Really? Lies…no. Informative…no. Manipulative (therefore very suspect)…yes. There is some credence in advertising introducing something that hasn’t been around before…but how many actual blades does a razor really fecking need…then described as some kind of breakthrough! Some say there is artistic merit in adverts, or humour. Of course there is, but ask yourself why, a free gift for the common cultural good? Where MacDonalds even describe their unadulterated shyte as a ‘meal’? I believe advertisers want to do your thinking for you, and therefore must be analysed to the nth degree in order to resist.
The consumer needs to be informed of a new product or service, otherwise they would not know it existed. Very few products or services are without competition, so once informed the consumer needs to be persuaded that the product or service being advertised is the better choice amongst the competition - either on quality, value or choice (real or perceived) and this is the bit where the advertiser is helping the customer make the choice amongst the competition - it also includes things like 'lifestyle' which although most would say bollox to that it does persuade. Finally consumers need to be constantly reminded of the product, else they would forget about it.
An essential product with a total monopoly wouldn't need anything other than inform. But we don't live in that world, Seth.
You have a point about comparison. I actually think there is a purpose if Tesco says they sell HP sauce for 85p and then list all the other stores and their prices in their advertising. Would it be possible for Bet356 to advertise and be explicit as to why their product is a better choice than all the others? Do you think there is even a teensy weensy bit of manipulating and control freakery going on in advertising that undermines clear thought in people?
Advertising isn’t about outright lying, after all there are even rules to rein that kind of thing in. I don’t believe that 95% of advertising is about being informative either. The question remains for me what is it for, and the conclusion I come back to is attempting to wrest control from your capacity to think for yourself. Why use the word ‘only’ in something like ‘only £99.99’, or ‘just’ for that matter. Adjectives generally can be scattered around that are unprovable. Charlton do it for example when they assert there will be a ‘delicious’ three course lunch on match days. My response is ‘delicious who says, according to what?’ I mean a scantily clad person striding purposefully through an oak panelled room scattering diamonds to advertise scent, what’s that all about? Attached to a slogan like ‘ascend to freedom’ accompanied by a dramatic chord or whatever. Really? Lies…no. Informative…no. Manipulative (therefore very suspect)…yes. There is some credence in advertising introducing something that hasn’t been around before…but how many actual blades does a razor really fecking need…then described as some kind of breakthrough! Some say there is artistic merit in adverts, or humour. Of course there is, but ask yourself why, a free gift for the common cultural good? Where MacDonalds even describe their unadulterated shyte as a ‘meal’? I believe advertisers want to do your thinking for you, and therefore must be analysed to the nth degree in order to resist.
One classic example is car manufacturers stating a vehicle has been voted “car of the year” etc…….well by whom exactly? Bonafide motoring organisations, customers who have purchased one, the sales team that sell them or the ladies in the assembly plant cafeteria who just liked the lovely new colour range?
Is that the new Citroen? If so apparently in France 14 year olds can drive it. It is very slow but I would have liked one when I was 14!
There's a few "sans permis" (without licence) cars people can drive here, including 14 year olds. A lot of the local pisshead drive them as they've lost their full licences. Aixam are a big brand, I think someone said you can buy them in the UK now too
Comments
For those interested, I highly recommend this Czech-directed film called The Russian Job. It's all about AutoVaz, where Ladas are made, and how in 2017 a Swedish crisis manager was brought in (by Renault who had taken a stake in it) to try and whack it into shape. Basically you see how corruption, industrial scale theft at every level is endemic to the operation and he is eventually defeated. I have been thinking about it when reading the stories about the true state of the Russian military hardware in Ukraine. Watch this film and you'll have an insight into why these stories are highly credible.
Again for those interested; Well crafted campaigns involve first listening carefully to what target audiences currently believe, and basically seek to either reinforce positive beliefs or change negative ones. One of my favourite ever ads is the 1979 Golf one which affectionately takes the piss out of the Japanese. It was built on a perception British people already had about German stuff generally (and which still holds true today, look around the average middle-class household and spot the German brands). The situation was, the Japanese were getting their act together in the factories, but not in their marketing departments. VAG UK (including Audi) had a legendary marketing guy called John Mezcaros who was brave enough to sign off on campaigns like this and "Vorsprung durch technik" and the Japanese had gofers. So of course VW pressed home the advantage as long as they could of the *perception* that German stuff is built better.
"Velly tough as old boot. Velly reriable"
EDIT: I think people are getting hung up on the term SUV. A large proportion of SUV's are no more than a taller car. Back to what I said earlier, a lot of them aren't any wider and are often shorter than an estate car, they're just taller.
Are they just letting the tyres down or actually puncturing them?
I don’t believe that 95% of advertising is about being informative either.
The question remains for me what is it for, and the conclusion I come back to is attempting to wrest control from your capacity to think for yourself.
Why use the word ‘only’ in something like ‘only £99.99’, or ‘just’ for that matter. Adjectives generally can be scattered around that are unprovable. Charlton do it for example when they assert there will be a ‘delicious’ three course lunch on match days. My response is ‘delicious who says, according to what?’
I mean a scantily clad person striding purposefully through an oak panelled room scattering diamonds to advertise scent, what’s that all about? Attached to a slogan like ‘ascend to freedom’ accompanied by a dramatic chord or whatever.
Really?
Lies…no.
Informative…no.
Manipulative (therefore very suspect)…yes.
There is some credence in advertising introducing something that hasn’t been around before…but how many actual blades does a razor really fecking need…then described as some kind of breakthrough!
Some say there is artistic merit in adverts, or humour. Of course there is, but ask yourself why, a free gift for the common cultural good?
Where MacDonalds even describe their unadulterated shyte as a ‘meal’?
I believe advertisers want to do your thinking for you, and therefore must be analysed to the nth degree in order to resist.
Thats why I say people are getting too hung up on the term SUV. Theres really only a handful that are truly large, and even say a range rover is only around 20cm longer than a Vauxhall insignia estate and not any wider, but don't see people with issues with the Insignia.
I used to have a Land Rover Discovery (3) some years back. It seemed so big - but again was shorter than some estate cars such as the insignia, but ask most people and they'd say it was huge.
The vast majority of SUV's aren't big other than in height compared to a decent sized car, in fact as you've found with the Yeti they are often much smaller.
Bonafide motoring organisations, customers who have purchased one, the sales team that sell them or the ladies in the assembly plant cafeteria who just liked the lovely new colour range?
Would it be possible for Bet356 to advertise and be explicit as to why their product is a better choice than all the others?
Do you think there is even a teensy weensy bit of manipulating and control freakery going on in advertising that undermines clear thought in people?
By whomever they have to state in the advert....
There's a few "sans permis" (without licence) cars people can drive here, including 14 year olds. A lot of the local pisshead drive them as they've lost their full licences. Aixam are a big brand, I think someone said you can buy them in the UK now too
Being sold as a quadrocycle
Forgot to say the Aixam aren't electric though, they're petrol and I think you can get them in diesel