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The High Block/High Press - what can we look forward to?

edited June 2022 in General Charlton
Lots of talk from the new guy about 'attacking football' and the resonance with Sandgaard's favoured 'high block', so it might be fun to speculate on what we might look forward to in the coming season.

No-one would dispute the attraction of playing football on the front foot and, for those of you with long memories, I have hinted that Garner may be the new Andy Nelson ... manager in the Hales and Flanagan era when most games seemed to finish 4-2.

So, what will Garner's football be like?  And how will it compare to Nelson's team?

The high press requires very energetic players.  And co-ordination.  Make no mistake, this is a high-risk strategy that requires co-ordinated team movement.  Get it wrong, have a weak link, and you are in trouble.  Get it right, and you win the ball back close to the opposition goal ... and this will happen a lot in League 1.  So, we will make a host of chances.  And we will need a Hales and Flanagan to put them away.

No point in making the chances if you go on to miss them, so our main strikers need to be very good.  They will be top of Garner's shopping list.  Get that right and we are looking at a 20 goals and 15 goals plus return.

The wide players need to be energetic and able to deliver good crosses.  This is crucial.  Hitting the byline regularly would be a very good idea.  Haven't seen much of that in recent seasons.

Midfield?  Again, boundless energy but, curiously, there are less demands on them than there are with the forwards and wide players.  Being able to slip a forward in once the ball is regained is high on the list but, unlikely many other styles of play, you do not need your central midfielders to be the 'main men'.  Don't get me wrong, though.  They still need to be good players technically, but the main attributes are energy, speed of thought etc.

Defenders also need to be agile, intelligent and comfortable on the ball.  Speed is also important because ...

... well ... because there are disadvantages with this high-press style of play.

We will be susceptible to the counter-attack when our high-press breaks down.  We will concede goals that make us look like amateurs.  We will shake our heads and ask ... WTF?

However, if we get the recruitment right, the good moments should outweigh the bad. 

Remember ... 4-2.  I'll settle for that.
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Comments

  • New guy in while Christmas
  • Dave Rudd said:
    Lots of talk from the new guy about 'attacking football' and the resonance with Sandgaard's favoured 'high block', so it might be fun to speculate on what we might look forward to in the coming season.

    No-one would dispute the attraction of playing football on the front foot and, for those of you with long memories, I have hinted that Garner may be the new Andy Nelson ... manager in the Hales and Flanagan era when most games seemed to finish 4-2.

    So, what will Garner's football be like?  And how will it compare to Nelson's team?

    The high press requires very energetic players.  And co-ordination.  Make no mistake, this is a high-risk strategy that requires co-ordinated team movement.  Get it wrong, have a weak link, and you are in trouble.  Get it right, and you win the ball back close to the opposition goal ... and this will happen a lot in League 1.  So, we will make a host of chances.  And we will need a Hales and Flanagan to put them away.

    No point in making the chances if you go on to miss them, so our main strikers need to be very good.  They will be top of Garner's shopping list.  Get that right and we are looking at a 20 goals and 15 goals plus return.

    The wide players need to be energetic and able to deliver good crosses.  This is crucial.  Hitting the byline regularly would be a very good idea.  Haven't seen much of that in recent seasons.

    Midfield?  Again, boundless energy but, curiously, there are less demands on them than there are with the forwards and wide players.  Being able to slip a forward in once the ball is regained is high on the list but, unlikely many other styles of play, you do not need your central midfielders to be the 'main men'.  Don't get me wrong, though.  They still need to be good players technically, but the main attributes are energy, speed of thought etc.

    Defenders also need to be agile, intelligent and comfortable on the ball.  Speed is also important because ...

    ... well ... because there are disadvantages with this high-press style of play.

    We will be susceptible to the counter-attack when our high-press breaks down.  We will concede goals that make us look like amateurs.  We will shake our heads and ask ... WTF?

    However, if we get the recruitment right, the good moments should outweigh the bad. 

    Remember ... 4-2.  I'll settle for that.
    You have to have the players to play like that. We don’t , so I wouldn’t get too excited . 
  • Gribbo said:
    New guy in while Christmas

    Yeah.
  • Building process required so I doubt we’ll have all the jigsaw pieces in place before Christmas and possibly not even this season. If we’re languishing in the bottom six or so come December then Sandgaard has a decision to make but I think Garner has probably three windows to get his chess pieces in place. Expecting anything more than that is I think too demanding. I’m expecting things to be much quicker and brighter on the pitch quite quickly but until he has 15 players all capable of what’s required I think we’ll come a cropper quite often too.
  • Conceding an early goal on the opening day of the season is my guess. 
  • A question we couldn't answer last season was a plan B when a team used the high press against us. We need players/tactics that can pass through the high press and not hoof it up field to stockley.
  • Dave Rudd said:
    .

    No point in making the chances if you go on to miss them, so our main strikers need to be very good.  They will be top of Garner's shopping list.  Get that right and we are looking at a 20 goals and 15 goals plus return.

    I can't see it myself. Assuming we'll be playing a 4-3-3 that's 1 striking berth and it sounds as though Stockley will be staying. Will we really buy a quality striker and push Stockley and Chuks down to backups? I think it's more likely we'll bring in a backup striker.

    Would expect our high quality attacking signings to be for the wide roles.
  • Failure!
  • The high press is fine if you have the players to do it.Man City,and Liverpool obviously the best examples.You need willing forwards.and most of all very fast recovering full backs.Man City and Liverpool have probably the quickest full backs in the league,even when 1st choices not available.You also need at least one very dependable centre back,and one very energetic midfielder who reads the game and breaks up opponents counter attacks.We have Lavelle,Dobson,Clare Jfc We do not have any quick full backs,Our front men I doubt will last very long if they have to spend a lot of energy high pressing(Davison might fit the bill),but a big overhaul is clearly needed.To be fair,BG started from scratch and Swindon and did a great job.
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  • Conceding from set pieces as we bring in ball playing defenders who aren’t convincing in the air.
  • edited June 2022
    I’ve no idea Dave of what’s going to happen ,  we could be brilliant or absolutely awful.

    Can we build not just a decent starting 11, but a decent squad over the summer and get it right, I don’t know it’s a big ask, but hopefully an exciting season ahead.

     I know people wil go back to the 2011/12 season and say it’s been done before , but was that of its time and a one off, Ipswich tried and failed, Wigan tried and and succeeded.

    The comments above about is probably conceding silly goals is probable, I want to see us have a very consistent good quality midfield, tracking and pressing and dominating play, with an end product.

    Our goals tally from midfield has been shockingly low, we deserved to finish where we did, I really hope we can do better, and I don’t think Elliott Lee did enough and hope we don’t sign him.

    Watson, Arter the list goes, were just not good enough.

     Get the midfield recruitment right, and we have a chance of moving up the table.

    Although we also need to bring in players in other areas as well , otherwise it’s just pie in the sky, and nice words, that make you sound like you know what you’re talking about (talking about Ts).
  • Said it before it will be similar to Bob Peeters but hopefully with the shackles off
  • Although our midfielders are by no means goal machines, I'm pretty sure our style of play meant it even harder for them to score.
  • Scoham said:
    Conceding from set pieces as we bring in ball playing defenders who aren’t convincing in the air.
    Recruiting the right centre backs is going to be crucial. They need to be good on the ball, quick for a high line but also good in the air as otherwise some teams in league 1 will simply bypass our high press with one long ball. 

    Almost impossible to find players that have all of that at this level. So have to create a partnership that does. Lavelle and Inniss are good in the air so need parters that are quick and good in possession (and ideally left footed), still very difficult to find
  • We'll have moments where we look good and moments where we concede goals like we were under Bowyer in the 20/21 season. Some of those Gunter/Pratley moments come to mind. We'll also concede goals where we don't see movement options in front, paddle it round the backline and get caught out like last season. So basically, we're going to be conceding the same goals we have been for the past two years, only maybe with some exciting attacking football on top. I'll take it.
  • An identity.

    It may or may not work although our U23s, U18s and U16s already play in something like this style so their progression will be smoother as and when they are given a chance.

    And while we won't have players of the quality of City or Liverpool neither will our league one opponents.

    Taking chances is vital regardless of the style you play but if you create more chances, as Garner's side did last season, that increases your chances of scoring.

    We were weak defensively last season not playing this new way so nothing new there.

    So we need new defenders for any formation given we have one centre back, Lavelle. The others are young Deji and crocked Ryan.

    So, as Gallen has already said, we need ball playing CBs but the identity means the recruiters know that and are looking for that. That in itself is a huge leap forward in my eyes. 

    We need to get the recruitment right but at least there is a clear job spec.

    Will this new style mean that long ball, physical teams like Accrington will be able to bully us again? Yes, it may well but we matched a not dissimilar Rotherham.

    The key will be, IMHO, can we break down those sides that sit deep (aka the low block) and impose our style of play on them, something we struggled with last year.

    All tactical systems have weaknesses and can all be beaten.

    That includes the system we'll play and those of our opponents. That is the beauty of football.

    At the same time individual players need to do their jobs consistently and well (classic example: jump when defending a corner in the last minute at Millwall). Don't do that and all the tactics or skills are but nothing.

    Curbs was asked what advice he was given by more experienced managers when he first started out.

    The advice was stark, crude and some would say reductive but it applies to Garner and every other gaffer 

    "Just win some f****** games"
  • edited June 2022
    This needed it own thread, and bravo to Dave Rudd for starting it. 
    I just wonder if Ben Garner realizes the task ahead if he wants to turn Charlton into a high press team ?

    Press, Possession, Performance: that was Johan Cruyff's mantra at Barcelona when he took over and played a 4-3-3 which changed to 3-4-3 but was so flexible when watching you could hardly tell. It was never rigid because just like Pep Guardiola who played in that side that won La Liga's in 4 seasons on the bounce, it was about playing it from the back with Angles  so no formation can be rigid and you play through the lines with fit technical players on the ball; see why @ShootersHillGuru and myself feel this could take time ! 

    What Cruyff achieved, we will need to do in the mediocre League 1 and Ronald Koeman picked up the ball from the keeper mainly and the options he had were plenty because of Geometry BUT he also had the ability to hit good long diagonal passes to either of the wider forwards in the front 3. Cafc will need to mix and match as no way will Charlton players not make errors in League 1 as otherwise they wouldn't be in the 3rd tier. 
  • I don’t agree you can only play this with quality players like Man City and Liverpool do. 

    The players you are doing this against are lower quality so a good premier league defender is same  as a good league 1 defender in reality. 

    Let’s give it a go and give manager time to put his imprint on the team 
  • The type of players you describe as needed don't play at League One level and if they did they won't be coming to Charlton. The way to get out of this league is to build up from a strong defence.
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  • edited June 2022
    Brighton have plenty of possession and pass well but their problem is they can't afford top class strikers. Before they beat a troubled Man Utd side on the south coast 4-0 they had gone 4 months without a home win ! Possession football at home played too slowly can give teams time to get into a decent defensive shape. Against Man city when they had an amazing 49% of Possession which is why Potter is a highly rated English manager.   But possession without sharp finishing doesn't win you football matches but it may stop you losing them.
  • Killer, Flash and Powell…never a question of where the goals were coming from, just a question of how many and would they be enough ?
  • Got a feeling that transition into the kind of team the manager wants is going to be painful.
    One of the things I found depressing last season was the number of times supposedly "inferior" sides ran rings around us with simple passing triangles and good movement off the ball.
    It would be nice to see our team doing that for a change.
    It seems to me we barely have a handful of players suited to Garner's brave new world.
    Even some of our better players, and I would include Stockley and Lavelle in that, have a retro dinosaur vibe about them.
    Good luck Ben. I am both excited and sceptical.
    But I think you might need to get some early wins on board however much of a "work in progress" your project is.
    I fear the Valley faithful are jaded, damaged and impatient.
  • Killer, Flash and Powell…never a question of where the goals were coming from, just a question of how many and would they be enough ?
    Plus Keefy as well. Players not known for tracking back but finding goals.
  • This needed it own thread, and bravo to Dave Rudd for starting it. 
    I just wonder if Ben Garner realizes the task ahead if he wants to turn Charlton into a high press team ?

    Press, Possession, Performance: that was Johan Cruyff's mantra at Barcelona when he took over and played a 4-3-3 which changed to 3-4-3 but was so flexible when watching you could hardly tell. It was never rigid because just like Pep Guardiola who played in that side that won La Liga's in 4 seasons on the bounce, it was about playing it from the back with Angles  so no formation can be rigid and you play through the lines with fit technical players on the ball; see why @ShootersHillGuru and myself feel this could take time ! 

    What Cruyff achieved, we will need to do in the mediocre League 1 and Ronald Koeman picked up the ball from the keeper mainly and the options he had were plenty because of Geometry BUT he also had the ability to hit good long diagonal passes to either of the wider forwards in the front 3. Cafc will need to mix and match as no way will Charlton players not make errors in League 1 as otherwise they wouldn't be in the 3rd tier. 
    I think that he must realise the task ahead because he just started achieving it with Swindon. Henry has said 3 windows and I think that is right. If you look at where Swindon were when he took over (albeit a league below), they were in a worse spot than us. Swindon didn't start brilliantly, but as the coaching methods came in, they improved and in truth, were one of the form teams coming into the play offs.

    We need to recognise this and see that it won't happen instantly and will take a bit of time for methods to be embedded. There are some decent starting points here, but an awful lot of work to be done. Realistically, for this team and squad to be successful, this is what I think needs replacing from last year:

    GK: McG is a decent keeper, but he's not great with the ball at his feet and I am not sure he suits BG's style of play. AMB could be ready made replacement though.

    Rb/Rwb x 2: We don't have one
    Lb/Lwb x 2: We don't have one (If Purrington's rumours are true)

    CB: We have Lavelle who I think will be integral going forward and our new captain, Inniss (who I can't see us being able to rely on) and two promising youngsters in Ness and Deji. At the very least we need 1 decent ball playing LCB.

    CM: Must get an energetic box to box midfielder. And I am really not sure Morgan or Gilbey are good enough for it. Aaron Henry may be good enough to be Dobson's back up but I haven't seen enough to know for sure.

    LWF/RWF: CBT and DJ probably could fit these roles well, but definitely more assistance is needed.

    CF: Stockley may be our focal point, but I would worry about his pace and energy to play the high press, doesn't seem his natural game. Either way we need a cover because if he is crocked, Davison is NOT the answer.

    I think Clare provides cover for lots of those roles and his energy will suit a high press, but I just don't know where his best position is.

    I make that 10 players required which I don't think is realistic this summer, which is why I am confident of improvement but I think promotion may be a step to far for us this year. Gallen would have to pull an absolute blinder out of the bag if we achieved it.

    I think the future is bright and quietly exciting though.
  • MrOneLung said:
    I don’t agree you can only play this with quality players like Man City and Liverpool do. 

    The players you are doing this against are lower quality so a good premier league defender is same  as a good league 1 defender in reality. 

    Let’s give it a go and give manager time to put his imprint on the team 


    Liverpool and Man City are the benchmarks,they have the best players,but to play this system you will need the league one version of Arnold and Walker,are they out there time will tell,totally agree,give Ben a chance,to get it right.Even if we dont set the league on fire are 20 games,there would be plenty of games left to get it right.
  • edited June 2022
    Just another thought, yes have a style of play you want to achieve, but make sure you are flexible, and have different ways of playing against different sides, or you’ll be worked out pretty quickly, and left floundering, because you’re so predictable.
  • Just another thought, yes have a style of play you want to achieve, but make sure you are flexible, and have different ways of playing against different sides, or you’ll be worked out pretty quickly, and left floundering, because you’re so predictable.
    Exactly right.

    This is why I worry when I hear 'style of play'.  Much better to say 'preferred style of play'.

    Without flexibility and adaptable players, you soon find your ceiling.

    It's also quite amusing to imagine that the opposition don't play some part in all this too.  Like they will all roll over and let you play your way.

    Some good thoughts on this thread, though, and I hope it will allow sensible judgement of newly-recruited players against this backdrop of what we think might be required.
  • Nothing to look forward to at the moment until we see what the dozen players we need look like 
  • The style of play I look for is a winning style.
    Whilst aesthetic beauty and fancy descriptors are all very well, three points every game is the absolute priority.
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