Barefoot/ minimalist running

RodneyCharltonTrotta

Am part way through Born to Run on audible and being plagued with niggly running injuries in my calves and achilles in general and a calf injury meaning I've not run for 2 months I'm considering exploring this.

I appreciate that in the transition period ironically it can add stress to achilles and calves after a life time of walking and running in shoes but just wondered if anyone has any insight or experience of this and any tips for making a transition aware from conventional running shoes?

I know @Cloudworm is a huge advocate from the running thread but wondered if other Lifers also have any experience or insight.

Cheers

WSS

I quite like the idea of it but I simply don't trust any routes to not result in me getting sepsis. 

RodneyCharltonTrotta

I should clarify I don't mean literally barefoot but rather minimal shoes. 

Bostonaddick

I had been having similar issues RCT.  I tried switching to minimalist running shoes. My leg pain got moderately worst as a result of the change but I kept trying hoping that my body would adapt over time.  It got a little better but after 5 months I just gave up and went back to my cushioned running shoe as I was not seeing improvement in the pain.  My guess is that after years of not being used to having immediate contact with the ground that it takes a pretty long time for the body to adapt and I just didn’t have the patience.  A combination of daily stretching, using a hypervolt before and after a run and custom orthotics have been what has helped the most but my doctor believes that because of my running gait I will probably always have a little bit of discomfort

RodneyCharltonTrotta

Thanks Boston.  I'm on the back of a torn calf injury from football and physio has finished but she's told me to basically start again with running to build up conditioning i.e. a more advanced couch to 5k approach.

I'm thinking that if I am taking a slow and steady approach to building up the mileage over next few months then it's probably the ideal time to transition and build up slowly over next 6 months with minimalist shoes but am mindful that it will probably take a lot of getting used to and may be too much to do on the back of a calf injury.   Lots to consider!

Thanks for your insight.

cafcfan

Yes, I have some insight. Don't do it. Stay on the sofa. Running wrecks your body. My Dad was a referee, he ran a lot. By the time he was 60 he could hardly move - his joints were trashed. A mate was a dedicated cross-country runner and jogger. He now has no feeling in his feet and falls over all the time because of damage to his spine.  Really, it's safer to just sit down or walk a bit if you insist on exercise.

CarltonAthleticDance

Switch to road cycling. Much cooler kit to buy.

Gribbo

I do a lot of minimalist running. In in fact it's so minimal, I've not run since 1991

NorthbyEast

I am not a runner but my father in law was. He ran many marathons in the eighties. he has had to have both his hips replaced due to the stress of long distance running in what were effectively plimsols, just a thought to consider if you are talking about long distance running.

WSS

cafcfan said:

Yes, I have some insight. Don't do it. Stay on the sofa. Running wrecks your body. My Dad was a referee, he ran a lot. By the time he was 60 he could hardly move - his joints were trashed. A mate was a dedicated cross-country runner and jogger. He now has no feeling in his feet and falls over all the time because of damage to his spine.  Really, it's safer to just sit down or walk a bit if you insist on exercise.

Not sure you can make that conclusion based on two examples.

Chizz

RodneyCharltonTrotta said:

I should clarify I don't mean literally barefoot but rather minimal shoes. 

What, like, just one? 

Cloudworm

NorthbyEast said:

I am not a runner but my father in law was. He ran many marathons in the eighties. he has had to have both his hips replaced due to the stress of long distance running in what were effectively plimsols, just a thought to consider if you are talking about long distance running.

No doubt that running isn't good for most people generally. But we love it, so best to do it as safely as possible, which means having the best possible technique to minimise the chance of injury. Minimalist running helps a lot of people achieve this. A lot of it is probably because it simply slows you down. (I wince when I read the running thread when people bang on about personal bests and being disappointed with their times). Yes, it requires a lot of time and patience, but for me it was so worth it.

Other things we enjoy that are bad for us:

Beer

Meat

Cheese

Fried food
Driving cars

Smoking
Watching Charlton

I could go on.

NorthStandUltra

I’m in Brighton today, saw a guy barefoot running along the seafront this morning - worked for Zola Budd but not sure I’d be impressed treading in food, drinks, body fluids etc 

Friend Or Defoe

RodneyCharltonTrotta said:

Am part way through Born to Run on audible and being plagued with niggly running injuries in my calves and achilles in general and a calf injury meaning I've not run for 2 months I'm considering exploring this.

I appreciate that in the transition period ironically it can add stress to achilles and calves after a life time of walking and running in shoes but just wondered if anyone has any insight or experience of this and any tips for making a transition aware from conventional running shoes?

I know @Cloudworm is a huge advocate from the running thread but wondered if other Lifers also have any experience or insight.

Cheers

Can't help with running advice, but have you tried yoga and/or stretching for the calf and achillies?

AFKABartram

There’s a guy that regularly runs barefoot round Sidcup. Seen it in the city a few times as well. Absolute madness.

I have the weakest soles of feet known to man. If you saw me attempting to walk on a stone beach you’d think it was a comedy sketch 

Cloudworm

There's barefoot and there's minimalist. This woman takes it to the extreme: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_McNuff

Bermuda_red

Born to Run is a great read.  I think that barefoot/minimalist running is fine if you are in great shape and have perfect form - that is, you have low impact with ground.  It's very hard to learn that after decades of doing something else. If you are a heel striker or flat footed etc you may encounter problems.  I think the current trend of heavily cushioned shoes is a backlash to "bare foot".  A decent running shop should be able to identify best shoes for an individual.

I hear stories and know older runners who have issues later in life.  Now, I'm not suggesting this applies to the above story but in many cases these are self inflicted.  Over doing it, not listening to your body, poor diet and bad footwear (even applies to every day walking about town shoes).  There is more science to it these days.  For every one of those stories, there are lots of people that run relatively trouble free into their 60s & 70s.  

My advice re: injury, would be go to a decent sports physio who will be able to identify any weaknesses and imbalances and then recommend ways to overcome the issue.  Many injuries are as a result of your body compensating for an imbalance.

RodneyCharltonTrotta

Friend Or Defoe said:

RodneyCharltonTrotta said:

Am part way through Born to Run on audible and being plagued with niggly running injuries in my calves and achilles in general and a calf injury meaning I've not run for 2 months I'm considering exploring this.

I appreciate that in the transition period ironically it can add stress to achilles and calves after a life time of walking and running in shoes but just wondered if anyone has any insight or experience of this and any tips for making a transition aware from conventional running shoes?

I know @Cloudworm is a huge advocate from the running thread but wondered if other Lifers also have any experience or insight.

Cheers

Can't help with running advice, but have you tried yoga and/or stretching for the calf and achillies?

Yeah I'm pretty disciplined with stretching after runs and use a massage gun too but defo need to get into yoga mate.

Cloudworm

Bermuda_red said:

Born to Run is a great read.  I think that barefoot/minimalist running is fine if you are in great shape and have perfect form - that is, you have low impact with ground.  It's very hard to learn that after decades of doing something else. If you are a heel striker or flat footed etc you may encounter problems.  I think the current trend of heavily cushioned shoes is a backlash to "bare foot".  A decent running shop should be able to identify best shoes for an individual.

I hear stories and know older runners who have issues later in life.  Now, I'm not suggesting this applies to the above story but in many cases these are self inflicted.  Over doing it, not listening to your body, poor diet and bad footwear (even applies to every day walking about town shoes).  There is more science to it these days.  For every one of those stories, there are lots of people that run relatively trouble free into their 60s & 70s.  

My advice re: injury, would be go to a decent sports physio who will be able to identify any weaknesses and imbalances and then recommend ways to overcome the issue.  Many injuries are as a result of your body compensating for an imbalance.

Bermuda_red said:

Born to Run is a great read.  I think that barefoot/minimalist running is fine if you are in great shape and have perfect form - that is, you have low impact with ground.  It's very hard to learn that after decades of doing something else. If you are a heel striker or flat footed etc you may encounter problems.  I think the current trend of heavily cushioned shoes is a backlash to "bare foot".  A decent running shop should be able to identify best shoes for an individual.

I hear stories and know older runners who have issues later in life.  Now, I'm not suggesting this applies to the above story but in many cases these are self inflicted.  Over doing it, not listening to your body, poor diet and bad footwear (even applies to every day walking about town shoes).  There is more science to it these days.  For every one of those stories, there are lots of people that run relatively trouble free into their 60s & 70s.  

My advice re: injury, would be go to a decent sports physio who will be able to identify any weaknesses and imbalances and then recommend ways to overcome the issue.  Many injuries are as a result of your body compensating for an imbalance.




Not sure why I can’t type below this quote...Anyway, I’d have to disagree with you there BR, old chap. I see minimalist as a route to good form. Conversely, modern shoes simply facilitate bad form. Heel strikers will continue to heel strike as long as they can. Try heel striking in a pair of Vibrams - ouchy!

Dave Rudd

Barefoot running is one thing, but the real benefit comes when supplemented with a diet of nuts and berries and outdoor (moorland) sleeping.

Source:

The Amazing Wilson 

These stories pre-date my childhood, but Wilson was my Dad's hero.

Disclaimer: These stories reflect the attitudes and language of the time and may cause offence to some.

Bermuda_red

Cloudworm said:

Bermuda_red said:

Born to Run is a great read.  I think that barefoot/minimalist running is fine if you are in great shape and have perfect form - that is, you have low impact with ground.  It's very hard to learn that after decades of doing something else. If you are a heel striker or flat footed etc you may encounter problems.  I think the current trend of heavily cushioned shoes is a backlash to "bare foot".  A decent running shop should be able to identify best shoes for an individual.

I hear stories and know older runners who have issues later in life.  Now, I'm not suggesting this applies to the above story but in many cases these are self inflicted.  Over doing it, not listening to your body, poor diet and bad footwear (even applies to every day walking about town shoes).  There is more science to it these days.  For every one of those stories, there are lots of people that run relatively trouble free into their 60s & 70s.  

My advice re: injury, would be go to a decent sports physio who will be able to identify any weaknesses and imbalances and then recommend ways to overcome the issue.  Many injuries are as a result of your body compensating for an imbalance.

Bermuda_red said:

Born to Run is a great read.  I think that barefoot/minimalist running is fine if you are in great shape and have perfect form - that is, you have low impact with ground.  It's very hard to learn that after decades of doing something else. If you are a heel striker or flat footed etc you may encounter problems.  I think the current trend of heavily cushioned shoes is a backlash to "bare foot".  A decent running shop should be able to identify best shoes for an individual.

I hear stories and know older runners who have issues later in life.  Now, I'm not suggesting this applies to the above story but in many cases these are self inflicted.  Over doing it, not listening to your body, poor diet and bad footwear (even applies to every day walking about town shoes).  There is more science to it these days.  For every one of those stories, there are lots of people that run relatively trouble free into their 60s & 70s.  

My advice re: injury, would be go to a decent sports physio who will be able to identify any weaknesses and imbalances and then recommend ways to overcome the issue.  Many injuries are as a result of your body compensating for an imbalance.




Not sure why I can’t type below this quote...Anyway, I’d have to disagree with you there BR, old chap. I see minimalist as a route to good form. Conversely, modern shoes simply facilitate bad form. Heel strikers will continue to heel strike as long as they can. Try heel striking in a pair of Vibrams - ouchy!

In theory I agree with your comments re: barefoot/minimalist.  I'm not anti barefoot - but from what I have seen I am advising caution,  as realistically it is hard to master.  There are many factors to take into account that many find hard to overcome.  A lot of folk that picked up a pair of minimalist shoes expected to nail it within weeks/months and were disappointed.  It also lead to many injuries. None of which was mentioned on the box.  It needs patience - being prepared to slow down, maybe encounter an injury and retrain your whole body.   Would be interesting to know how many runners reached the promised land of relatively comfortable pain free minimalist running having spent years in more traditional cushioned shoes.  Maybe that speaks to our lifestyles, putting young kids in shoes all the time etc.  

I did think about it and do occasionally run very short distances barefoot on a beach or golf course - but I wouldn't go beyond that.  I went to a talk by Chris McDougall - author of Born To Run - about 10 years ago.   He mentioned something about thinking about form with every stride.  Which I felt took the fun out of running. The talk was excellent and resulted in local runners wanting to give it a go.  10 years later I don't see those shoes anymore.

Gribbo

AFKABartram said:

There’s a guy that regularly runs barefoot round Sidcup. Seen it in the city a few times as well. Absolute madness.

I have the weakest soles of feet known to man. If you saw me attempting to walk on a stone beach you’d think it was a comedy sketch 

I'm the same.

Rob

I’ve run for years. The important thing is the footwear. I’m not sure I’d use the minimalist footwear. Goes against everything I’ve learned/ experienced over the years. And, as you get older, it’s even more important. The last thing you want is an Achilles injury for example which really could hamper or even stop your running. Lightweight running shoes with support tailored to what your feet need is the way to go. And everyone’s feet are different.

swords_alive

Not a runner myself these days. But Born to Run is an excellent read. Anyone who hasn't read it and thinks they know about running probably should. Found it opens the mind if nothing else.

Haddock On A Stick

Yeah, I've been a minimalist/barefoot runner for the last 10 years. I'm 50 & I usually do 20-40km's trail running per week - I use zero sandals for some basic protection. I love it, it feels brilliant - but you're right, transition can be a bit hard. Your calves & achilles tendons will have got shorter over the years & they will take some time to stretch back out to their proper length, so don't rush it or imagine you will be running the same distances that you used to within a couple of weeks.

There's a wide range of minimalist shoes. At the more regular end of the range you have brands like Altra - which have padding & support but are zero drop - to the ultra-minimalist sandals that are 4mm of rubber strapped to the bottom of your foot with no padding or support. I'm at the minimalist end of the spectrum, running with about 8mm of rubber just to protect from gravel, sticks & sharp rocks. 

More important than your choice of shoes is learning good running technique - everybody concentrates on a forefoot strike when they start minimalist, because that is obvious. Wearing padded shoes allows you to heel strike without any immediate pain (though it's terrible for knees and backs) whereas if you try to heel strike in minimalist shoes you will be in a world of hurt. That's only the most obvious adaptation though - as you get into it you learn to shorten your stride, pop your feet off the deck rather than pushing down, develop a quicker cadence, maintain good posture & utilise your quads & gluts more for your stride. But it all takes time, if you're trying to teach yourself. If you watch pro-runners, they  avoid injuries by having perfect techniques, but they have a team of coaches. Amateur runners get more injuries because their technique is not perfect & they don't have experts to help them correct. 

I definitely get less injuries from minimalist running - my knees & back were particularly bad when I used to run in regular running shoes. However, if you're into races and running PB's, you are unlikely to be as fast in minimalist shoes as you are in regular ones. It's a trade-off. 

If you want some in-depth discussion, join in at https://www.reddit.com/r/BarefootRunning/  

Raith_C_Chattonell

I know nothing of running, but I got Plantar Fascilitis just from walking around a bit.

It affects the bottom of the foot and heel, is excruciatingly painful and has you hobbling like you're on Afka's stoney beach.  

I think the best advice as far as that is concerned is to protect your feet on hard surfaces with supportive footwear. 

https://heelthatpain.com/heel-pain/barefoot/ 



 

RodneyCharltonTrotta

Raith_C_Chattonell said:

I know nothing of running, but I got Plantar Fascilitis just from walking around a bit.

It affects the bottom of the foot and heel, is excruciatingly painful and has you hobbling like you're on Afka's stoney beach.  

I think the best advice as far as that is concerned is to protect your feet on hard surfaces with supportive footwear. 

https://heelthatpain.com/heel-pain/barefoot/ 



 

I believe studies have showed that platar problems are actually reduced/ far less prevalent in those with minimalist shoes as arches tend to be more pronounced and stronger.

The golf ball therapy sorted me out when I had this years ago and worth trying for anyone suffering from it.

RodneyCharltonTrotta

Thanks @Haddock On A Stick really insightful.

I've taken the plunge and got a couple of pairs of vivobarefoots including a pair of horrendous looking work shoes which will make me look like coco the clown.

I've missed most of the race season this year and have to build up from square one after recent injury in terms of distance and frequency so I've considered it is the optimal time to explore this and will do it very slowly.

My expectations in terms of distances and speed are tempered accordingly and I'm in no rush to get back to longer distances or fast (for me) times at this stage as see this transition as a bigger investment.

Always getting achilles and calf injuries in expensive heeled shoes so think it is worth at least trying for next 12 to 18 months.

In terms of technique and form I tend to over think it and think that we are literally born to run as our bodies intended (to a degree) and that we can do so intuitively but will need to read up a lot more on this side of things of course.


No doubt I'll be hobbling about in covered End in 2 months in my clown shoes cursing the day I ever tried this :-)


Ps the sandals sound superb and something to aim for in years to come. Did a light run and some physio completely barefoot at the park on grass last night and it was pretty liberating.

Dave Rudd

RodneyCharltonTrotta said:

Thanks @Haddock On A Stick really insightful.

I've taken the plunge and got a couple of pairs of vivobarefoots including a pair of horrendous looking work shoes which will make me look like coco the clown.

I've missed most of the race season this year and have to build up from square one after recent injury in terms of distance and frequency so I've considered it is the optimal time to explore this and will do it very slowly.

My expectations in terms of distances and speed are tempered accordingly and I'm in no rush to get back to longer distances or fast (for me) times at this stage as see this transition as a bigger investment.

Always getting achilles and calf injuries in expensive heeled shoes so think it is worth at least trying for next 12 to 18 months.

In terms of technique and form I tend to over think it and think that we are literally born to run as our bodies intended (to a degree) and that we can do so intuitively but will need to read up a lot more on this side of things of course.


No doubt I'll be hobbling about in covered End in 2 months in my clown shoes cursing the day I ever tried this :-)


Ps the sandals sound superb and something to aim for in years to come. Did a light run and some physio completely barefoot at the park on grass last night and it was pretty liberating.

Not sure if it applies to you, @RodneyCharltonTrotta, but those Achilles injuries can persist long after you think.

Back in the day when I was doing fairly serious mileage, I picked up an Achilles and calf injury and it ended up taking about a year to get rid of.  The problem was my fault ... I'd get back to normal training far too quickly, and the whole thing would flare up again.  Back to square 1, rinse and repeat.

So, my advice ... even when you think you're over it, give it another couple of weeks.  It will be quicker in the end. 

Haddock On A Stick

RodneyCharltonTrotta said:

Raith_C_Chattonell said:

I know nothing of running, but I got Plantar Fascilitis just from walking around a bit.

It affects the bottom of the foot and heel, is excruciatingly painful and has you hobbling like you're on Afka's stoney beach.  

I think the best advice as far as that is concerned is to protect your feet on hard surfaces with supportive footwear. 

https://heelthatpain.com/heel-pain/barefoot/ 



 

I believe studies have showed that platar problems are actually reduced/ far less prevalent in those with minimalist shoes as arches tend to be more pronounced and stronger.

The golf ball therapy sorted me out when I had this years ago and worth trying for anyone suffering from it.

Yeah, that's what got me going with the whole minimalist thing. I got plantar fasciitis, got prescribed orthotics and the pain got worse. So I figured I would do the opposite -  I tried minimalist shoes with golf ball massaging and it was gone within weeks. I've never gone back to supportive footwear & I've never had a plantar problem since.

Gillis

How's it going so far, @RodneyCharltonTrotta ?