House of Commoners

Gary Poole

kentaddick said:

Gary Poole said:

kentaddick said:

BR7_addick said:

LenGlover said:

Friend Or Defoe said:

Chunes said:

kentaddick said:

AddicksAddict said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Probably the best solution is if it is brought back is to have a zero tolerance, not to heated discussions but personal insults and people being called racists etc... Then the people who fall foul should be banned for life and it will pretty soon all work fine. 

So don’t ban the racists but ban the people who call them out for being racist?

this is exactly what a lot of people want. A big part of the problem is people think being called a racist is worse than actual racism - because racism doesn't affect them, being called a racist does. 

blackpool72 said:

The racist card gets overplayed. 
One poster went so far as to say everyone who voted Brexit is a racist. 
Call out racism whenever it appears that's the right thing to do. 
But some on here try and look for it where it doesn't exist. 

and some actively try to ignore where it does. What would you want - a space where racism is called out, or a space where it isn't? 

Blackpool's got it spot on. You've accused me of antisemitism 3-4 times and I'm Jewish.

How mental is that? You can point fingers at QA and rightfully so, but he's not the only guilty party for that section being closed.

I'm not a regular on there at all but from what I have seen QA is one of a minority of posters that might be perceived as 'right wing' whereas the majority on there are 'left' in various extremes. Is that why QA has been singled out? It is a well known left wing tactic to smear right wing opinions as 'racist' whether they are or not.

I am a regular and from what I’ve seen there is a (very small) minority of right wing conspiracists, albeit harmless in the scheme of things.  And then there are those living in the real world (some right of centre and some left).

strong disagree. Far Right wing domestic terrorism is on the rise, this is incredibly serious - unfortunately the mod's response to this was "oh well if you see any terrorism plans let us know x" which, to be honest, just about sums up their attitude to the place imo and contributed to the toxic culture.

That’s quite a statement. Have you seen any red flags that you felt were a pre cursor to right wing or any other terrorism on that section of the site? I have done several prevent causes and dealt with both the Met’s Counter Terrorism team and the MoJ and have never myself seen anything on there I felt was anywhere near that.

If you have feel free to message me about it and copy in one of the moderators here.

So emmerdale writers are making the kids gay, "globalists" *wink wink* *nudge nugdge* are doing things to control us is all completely normal, rational thinking then?

If you think that's ok for potentially vulnerable people to read, fine. But i don't. Letting people post such drivel is ultimately dangerous and not "harmless".

Whilst they are clearly unpalatable views to many of us. What makes you think the way they have been expressed here are leading people here towards a path of far right terrorism? Who are the vulnerable people? Were they being coerced or groomed? Were people directed the other sites with content that veered towards violent ideology?

Stu_of_Kunming

Gary Poole said:

kentaddick said:

Gary Poole said:

kentaddick said:

BR7_addick said:

LenGlover said:

Friend Or Defoe said:

Chunes said:

kentaddick said:

AddicksAddict said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Probably the best solution is if it is brought back is to have a zero tolerance, not to heated discussions but personal insults and people being called racists etc... Then the people who fall foul should be banned for life and it will pretty soon all work fine. 

So don’t ban the racists but ban the people who call them out for being racist?

this is exactly what a lot of people want. A big part of the problem is people think being called a racist is worse than actual racism - because racism doesn't affect them, being called a racist does. 

blackpool72 said:

The racist card gets overplayed. 
One poster went so far as to say everyone who voted Brexit is a racist. 
Call out racism whenever it appears that's the right thing to do. 
But some on here try and look for it where it doesn't exist. 

and some actively try to ignore where it does. What would you want - a space where racism is called out, or a space where it isn't? 

Blackpool's got it spot on. You've accused me of antisemitism 3-4 times and I'm Jewish.

How mental is that? You can point fingers at QA and rightfully so, but he's not the only guilty party for that section being closed.

I'm not a regular on there at all but from what I have seen QA is one of a minority of posters that might be perceived as 'right wing' whereas the majority on there are 'left' in various extremes. Is that why QA has been singled out? It is a well known left wing tactic to smear right wing opinions as 'racist' whether they are or not.

I am a regular and from what I’ve seen there is a (very small) minority of right wing conspiracists, albeit harmless in the scheme of things.  And then there are those living in the real world (some right of centre and some left).

strong disagree. Far Right wing domestic terrorism is on the rise, this is incredibly serious - unfortunately the mod's response to this was "oh well if you see any terrorism plans let us know x" which, to be honest, just about sums up their attitude to the place imo and contributed to the toxic culture.

That’s quite a statement. Have you seen any red flags that you felt were a pre cursor to right wing or any other terrorism on that section of the site? I have done several prevent causes and dealt with both the Met’s Counter Terrorism team and the MoJ and have never myself seen anything on there I felt was anywhere near that.

If you have feel free to message me about it and copy in one of the moderators here.

So emmerdale writers are making the kids gay, "globalists" *wink wink* *nudge nugdge* are doing things to control us is all completely normal, rational thinking then?

If you think that's ok for potentially vulnerable people to read, fine. But i don't. Letting people post such drivel is ultimately dangerous and not "harmless".

Whilst they are clearly unpalatable views to many of us. What makes you think the way they have been expressed here are leading people here towards a path of far right terrorism? Who are the vulnerable people? Were they being coerced or groomed? Were people directed the other sites with content that veered towards violent ideology?

Yes. Numerous times. We have no idea of the full audience and who’s reading but some of the links poster were to full fat right crank sites. 

SDAddick

kentaddick said:

Gary Poole said:

kentaddick said:

BR7_addick said:

LenGlover said:

Friend Or Defoe said:

Chunes said:

kentaddick said:

AddicksAddict said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Probably the best solution is if it is brought back is to have a zero tolerance, not to heated discussions but personal insults and people being called racists etc... Then the people who fall foul should be banned for life and it will pretty soon all work fine. 

So don’t ban the racists but ban the people who call them out for being racist?

this is exactly what a lot of people want. A big part of the problem is people think being called a racist is worse than actual racism - because racism doesn't affect them, being called a racist does. 

blackpool72 said:

The racist card gets overplayed. 
One poster went so far as to say everyone who voted Brexit is a racist. 
Call out racism whenever it appears that's the right thing to do. 
But some on here try and look for it where it doesn't exist. 

and some actively try to ignore where it does. What would you want - a space where racism is called out, or a space where it isn't? 

Blackpool's got it spot on. You've accused me of antisemitism 3-4 times and I'm Jewish.

How mental is that? You can point fingers at QA and rightfully so, but he's not the only guilty party for that section being closed.

I'm not a regular on there at all but from what I have seen QA is one of a minority of posters that might be perceived as 'right wing' whereas the majority on there are 'left' in various extremes. Is that why QA has been singled out? It is a well known left wing tactic to smear right wing opinions as 'racist' whether they are or not.

I am a regular and from what I’ve seen there is a (very small) minority of right wing conspiracists, albeit harmless in the scheme of things.  And then there are those living in the real world (some right of centre and some left).

strong disagree. Far Right wing domestic terrorism is on the rise, this is incredibly serious - unfortunately the mod's response to this was "oh well if you see any terrorism plans let us know x" which, to be honest, just about sums up their attitude to the place imo and contributed to the toxic culture.

That’s quite a statement. Have you seen any red flags that you felt were a pre cursor to right wing or any other terrorism on that section of the site? I have done several prevent causes and dealt with both the Met’s Counter Terrorism team and the MoJ and have never myself seen anything on there I felt was anywhere near that.

If you have feel free to message me about it and copy in one of the moderators here.

So emmerdale writers are making the kids gay, "globalists" *wink wink* *nudge nugdge* are doing things to control us is all completely normal, rational thinking then?

If you think that's ok for potentially vulnerable people to read, fine. But i don't. Letting people post such drivel is ultimately dangerous and not "harmless".

But that's not terrorism. And there is nothing to indicate that it's the pre-cursor to terrorism either. It's homophobic. It's probably anti-semitic. But there's not indication that it directly leads to terrorism unto itself. 

Ring Wing domestic terror incidents are on the rise. As is right online extremism. And I would argue both have been the case for far longer than people have been willing to acknowledge, some of which I wrote about above. But when you evoke terrorism, and say mods are doing nothing, in the same post, you paint a picture that I believe to be inaccurate. 

CharltonMadrid

Some of the far out stuff on there was obviously completely laughable to virtually everyone but there is a chance someone gullible would be taken in by it. 

kentaddick

SDAddick said:

kentaddick said:

Gary Poole said:

kentaddick said:

BR7_addick said:

LenGlover said:

Friend Or Defoe said:

Chunes said:

kentaddick said:

AddicksAddict said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Probably the best solution is if it is brought back is to have a zero tolerance, not to heated discussions but personal insults and people being called racists etc... Then the people who fall foul should be banned for life and it will pretty soon all work fine. 

So don’t ban the racists but ban the people who call them out for being racist?

this is exactly what a lot of people want. A big part of the problem is people think being called a racist is worse than actual racism - because racism doesn't affect them, being called a racist does. 

blackpool72 said:

The racist card gets overplayed. 
One poster went so far as to say everyone who voted Brexit is a racist. 
Call out racism whenever it appears that's the right thing to do. 
But some on here try and look for it where it doesn't exist. 

and some actively try to ignore where it does. What would you want - a space where racism is called out, or a space where it isn't? 

Blackpool's got it spot on. You've accused me of antisemitism 3-4 times and I'm Jewish.

How mental is that? You can point fingers at QA and rightfully so, but he's not the only guilty party for that section being closed.

I'm not a regular on there at all but from what I have seen QA is one of a minority of posters that might be perceived as 'right wing' whereas the majority on there are 'left' in various extremes. Is that why QA has been singled out? It is a well known left wing tactic to smear right wing opinions as 'racist' whether they are or not.

I am a regular and from what I’ve seen there is a (very small) minority of right wing conspiracists, albeit harmless in the scheme of things.  And then there are those living in the real world (some right of centre and some left).

strong disagree. Far Right wing domestic terrorism is on the rise, this is incredibly serious - unfortunately the mod's response to this was "oh well if you see any terrorism plans let us know x" which, to be honest, just about sums up their attitude to the place imo and contributed to the toxic culture.

That’s quite a statement. Have you seen any red flags that you felt were a pre cursor to right wing or any other terrorism on that section of the site? I have done several prevent causes and dealt with both the Met’s Counter Terrorism team and the MoJ and have never myself seen anything on there I felt was anywhere near that.

If you have feel free to message me about it and copy in one of the moderators here.

So emmerdale writers are making the kids gay, "globalists" *wink wink* *nudge nugdge* are doing things to control us is all completely normal, rational thinking then?

If you think that's ok for potentially vulnerable people to read, fine. But i don't. Letting people post such drivel is ultimately dangerous and not "harmless".

But that's not terrorism. And there is nothing to indicate that it's the pre-cursor to terrorism either. It's homophobic. It's probably anti-semitic. But there's not indication that it directly leads to terrorism unto itself. 

Ring Wing domestic terror incidents are on the rise. As is right online extremism. And I would argue both have been the case for far longer than people have been willing to acknowledge, some of which I wrote about above. But when you evoke terrorism, and say mods are doing nothing, in the same post, you paint a picture that I believe to be inaccurate. 

oh silly me, gets a free pass then. Apologies everyone. 

But in all seriousness, yes, it obviously hasn't directly contributed to a terrorist attack, but there becomes a point where you need to draw a line and we've been well passed that for some time now - Would we be happy with people talking about infidels and sharing links to crackpot islamist "thinkers" during the rise of ISIS? I don't think so. Why is it different now?

It also wasn't the point i was making, the attitude of "isn't illegal, so i dont care" attitude isn't particularly helpful to an already toxic environment. 

thenewbie

And here we go, won't be long now until we see the kind of stuff that was exactly why HoC got moved in the first place.

And without a single appearance or comment from Q.A., who whilst someone whose views I find abhorrent was FAR from the only issue with those pages.

kentaddick

CharltonMadrid said:

Some of the far out stuff on there was obviously completely laughable to virtually everyone but there is a chance someone gullible would be taken in by it. 

and all it takes is one... 

SDAddick

kentaddick said:

SDAddick said:

kentaddick said:

Gary Poole said:

kentaddick said:

BR7_addick said:

LenGlover said:

Friend Or Defoe said:

Chunes said:

kentaddick said:

AddicksAddict said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Probably the best solution is if it is brought back is to have a zero tolerance, not to heated discussions but personal insults and people being called racists etc... Then the people who fall foul should be banned for life and it will pretty soon all work fine. 

So don’t ban the racists but ban the people who call them out for being racist?

this is exactly what a lot of people want. A big part of the problem is people think being called a racist is worse than actual racism - because racism doesn't affect them, being called a racist does. 

blackpool72 said:

The racist card gets overplayed. 
One poster went so far as to say everyone who voted Brexit is a racist. 
Call out racism whenever it appears that's the right thing to do. 
But some on here try and look for it where it doesn't exist. 

and some actively try to ignore where it does. What would you want - a space where racism is called out, or a space where it isn't? 

Blackpool's got it spot on. You've accused me of antisemitism 3-4 times and I'm Jewish.

How mental is that? You can point fingers at QA and rightfully so, but he's not the only guilty party for that section being closed.

I'm not a regular on there at all but from what I have seen QA is one of a minority of posters that might be perceived as 'right wing' whereas the majority on there are 'left' in various extremes. Is that why QA has been singled out? It is a well known left wing tactic to smear right wing opinions as 'racist' whether they are or not.

I am a regular and from what I’ve seen there is a (very small) minority of right wing conspiracists, albeit harmless in the scheme of things.  And then there are those living in the real world (some right of centre and some left).

strong disagree. Far Right wing domestic terrorism is on the rise, this is incredibly serious - unfortunately the mod's response to this was "oh well if you see any terrorism plans let us know x" which, to be honest, just about sums up their attitude to the place imo and contributed to the toxic culture.

That’s quite a statement. Have you seen any red flags that you felt were a pre cursor to right wing or any other terrorism on that section of the site? I have done several prevent causes and dealt with both the Met’s Counter Terrorism team and the MoJ and have never myself seen anything on there I felt was anywhere near that.

If you have feel free to message me about it and copy in one of the moderators here.

So emmerdale writers are making the kids gay, "globalists" *wink wink* *nudge nugdge* are doing things to control us is all completely normal, rational thinking then?

If you think that's ok for potentially vulnerable people to read, fine. But i don't. Letting people post such drivel is ultimately dangerous and not "harmless".

But that's not terrorism. And there is nothing to indicate that it's the pre-cursor to terrorism either. It's homophobic. It's probably anti-semitic. But there's not indication that it directly leads to terrorism unto itself. 

Ring Wing domestic terror incidents are on the rise. As is right online extremism. And I would argue both have been the case for far longer than people have been willing to acknowledge, some of which I wrote about above. But when you evoke terrorism, and say mods are doing nothing, in the same post, you paint a picture that I believe to be inaccurate. 

oh silly me, gets a free pass then. Apologies everyone. 

But in all seriousness, yes, it obviously hasn't directly contributed to a terrorist attack, but there becomes a point where you need to draw a line and we've been well passed that for some time now. Would we be happy with people talking about infidels and sharing links to crackpot islamist "thinkers" during the rise of ISIS? I don't think so. Why is it different now?

Okay fine, but why bring terrorism up at all then? 

It's perfectly reasonable to say "As a Jewish person, I don't want to be involved in a place that lets people spout the conspiracy theory that all Jews control the world." Or whatever, how you want to phrase it for yourself. You could also say that the very personal attacks (which you and I both received) should have been dealt with more firmly. 

The sky is not always falling, chicken little. And evoking the most dire of potential outcomes, no matter how unlikely, makes it so that if we do actually get to those outcomes (namely, things that lead to terrorism) you risk having lost a way to convey that to others. 

kentaddick

SDAddick said:

kentaddick said:

SDAddick said:

kentaddick said:

Gary Poole said:

kentaddick said:

BR7_addick said:

LenGlover said:

Friend Or Defoe said:

Chunes said:

kentaddick said:

AddicksAddict said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Probably the best solution is if it is brought back is to have a zero tolerance, not to heated discussions but personal insults and people being called racists etc... Then the people who fall foul should be banned for life and it will pretty soon all work fine. 

So don’t ban the racists but ban the people who call them out for being racist?

this is exactly what a lot of people want. A big part of the problem is people think being called a racist is worse than actual racism - because racism doesn't affect them, being called a racist does. 

blackpool72 said:

The racist card gets overplayed. 
One poster went so far as to say everyone who voted Brexit is a racist. 
Call out racism whenever it appears that's the right thing to do. 
But some on here try and look for it where it doesn't exist. 

and some actively try to ignore where it does. What would you want - a space where racism is called out, or a space where it isn't? 

Blackpool's got it spot on. You've accused me of antisemitism 3-4 times and I'm Jewish.

How mental is that? You can point fingers at QA and rightfully so, but he's not the only guilty party for that section being closed.

I'm not a regular on there at all but from what I have seen QA is one of a minority of posters that might be perceived as 'right wing' whereas the majority on there are 'left' in various extremes. Is that why QA has been singled out? It is a well known left wing tactic to smear right wing opinions as 'racist' whether they are or not.

I am a regular and from what I’ve seen there is a (very small) minority of right wing conspiracists, albeit harmless in the scheme of things.  And then there are those living in the real world (some right of centre and some left).

strong disagree. Far Right wing domestic terrorism is on the rise, this is incredibly serious - unfortunately the mod's response to this was "oh well if you see any terrorism plans let us know x" which, to be honest, just about sums up their attitude to the place imo and contributed to the toxic culture.

That’s quite a statement. Have you seen any red flags that you felt were a pre cursor to right wing or any other terrorism on that section of the site? I have done several prevent causes and dealt with both the Met’s Counter Terrorism team and the MoJ and have never myself seen anything on there I felt was anywhere near that.

If you have feel free to message me about it and copy in one of the moderators here.

So emmerdale writers are making the kids gay, "globalists" *wink wink* *nudge nugdge* are doing things to control us is all completely normal, rational thinking then?

If you think that's ok for potentially vulnerable people to read, fine. But i don't. Letting people post such drivel is ultimately dangerous and not "harmless".

But that's not terrorism. And there is nothing to indicate that it's the pre-cursor to terrorism either. It's homophobic. It's probably anti-semitic. But there's not indication that it directly leads to terrorism unto itself. 

Ring Wing domestic terror incidents are on the rise. As is right online extremism. And I would argue both have been the case for far longer than people have been willing to acknowledge, some of which I wrote about above. But when you evoke terrorism, and say mods are doing nothing, in the same post, you paint a picture that I believe to be inaccurate. 

oh silly me, gets a free pass then. Apologies everyone. 

But in all seriousness, yes, it obviously hasn't directly contributed to a terrorist attack, but there becomes a point where you need to draw a line and we've been well passed that for some time now. Would we be happy with people talking about infidels and sharing links to crackpot islamist "thinkers" during the rise of ISIS? I don't think so. Why is it different now?

Okay fine, but why bring terrorism up at all then? 

It's perfectly reasonable to say "As a Jewish person, I don't want to be involved in a place that lets people spout the conspiracy theory that all Jews control the world." Or whatever, how you want to phrase it for yourself. You could also say that the very personal attacks (which you and I both received) should have been dealt with more firmly. 

To show that this isn't a "harmless" problem (in response to BR7, who has since clarified what he meant), its a real, growing problem that (eventually) kills people, we've recently had 2 MPs murdered in the last few years. One a by far right terrorist, one by an islamist. Both equally abhorrent ideologies. 

Leuth

thenewbie said:

And here we go, won't be long now until we see the kind of stuff that was exactly why HoC got moved in the first place.

And without a single appearance or comment from Q.A., who whilst someone whose views I find abhorrent was FAR from the only issue with those pages.

Seems so, eh

Callumcafc

kentaddick said:

BR7_addick said:

LenGlover said:

Friend Or Defoe said:

Chunes said:

kentaddick said:

AddicksAddict said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Probably the best solution is if it is brought back is to have a zero tolerance, not to heated discussions but personal insults and people being called racists etc... Then the people who fall foul should be banned for life and it will pretty soon all work fine. 

So don’t ban the racists but ban the people who call them out for being racist?

this is exactly what a lot of people want. A big part of the problem is people think being called a racist is worse than actual racism - because racism doesn't affect them, being called a racist does. 

blackpool72 said:

The racist card gets overplayed. 
One poster went so far as to say everyone who voted Brexit is a racist. 
Call out racism whenever it appears that's the right thing to do. 
But some on here try and look for it where it doesn't exist. 

and some actively try to ignore where it does. What would you want - a space where racism is called out, or a space where it isn't? 

Blackpool's got it spot on. You've accused me of antisemitism 3-4 times and I'm Jewish.

How mental is that? You can point fingers at QA and rightfully so, but he's not the only guilty party for that section being closed.

I'm not a regular on there at all but from what I have seen QA is one of a minority of posters that might be perceived as 'right wing' whereas the majority on there are 'left' in various extremes. Is that why QA has been singled out? It is a well known left wing tactic to smear right wing opinions as 'racist' whether they are or not.

I am a regular and from what I’ve seen there is a (very small) minority of right wing conspiracists, albeit harmless in the scheme of things.  And then there are those living in the real world (some right of centre and some left).

strong disagree. Far Right wing domestic terrorism is on the rise, this is incredibly serious - unfortunately the mod's response to this was "oh well if you see any terrorism plans let us know x" which, to be honest, just about sums up their attitude to the place imo and contributed to the toxic culture.

I don't understand posts like this. You want HoC back, right? Or have I misunderstood?

Because I'm looking at this thread and your combative posts are the primary reason I'd be keeping HoC closed if I was on the mod team.

AFKABartram

I think this thread emphasises both the difficulty attached to it, but also the benefits of keeping it off the main forum.

Personally I’ve no real problem with people expressing views that are more extreme or different than others (within reason, and articulated the right way). It would be bland if everyone thought the same. Problem comes in the response it provokes, that then spirals quickly from there. Basically too many people get sucked into posting and behaving like arseholes. You can see it here on this thread, and that’s probably why even though I have some interest in the topics I’ve had no real inclination to participate in that section, and hell no not want to moderate! . It’s not just one or two spoiling it for others, that would be easy to deal with. 

We are discussing behind the scenes how best we can make it work, and if / when we are agreed and think we’ve got the structure right, we’ll reintroduce it. @stig in particular has put a lot of work into this. It’s a headache for those who do moderate it, which you all have to remember is on a completely voluntary basis and with constant needle can be time-consuming, demoralising and draining. I think everyone has to accept though that if reintroduced a lot of peoples posting behaviours towards others will have to change or they won’t be lasting very long on it. 

Will close this for now and when we’ve something agreed further down the line we’ll make an announcement. Cheers all

Huskaris

AFKABartram said:

I think this thread emphasises both the difficulty attached to it, but also the benefits of keeping it off the main forum.

Personally I’ve no real problem with people expressing views that are more extreme or different than others (within reason, and articulated the right way). It would be bland if everyone thought the same. Problem comes in the response it provokes, that then spirals quickly from there. Basically too many people get sucked into posting and behaving like arseholes. You can see it here on this thread, and that’s probably why even though I have some interest in the topics I’ve had no real inclination to participate in that section, and hell no not want to moderate! . It’s not just one or two spoiling it for others, that would be easy to deal with. 

We are discussing behind the scenes how best we can make it work, and if / when we are agreed and think we’ve got the structure right, we’ll reintroduce it. @stig in particular has put a lot of work into this. It’s a headache for those who do moderate it, which you all have to remember is on a completely voluntary basis. I think everyone has to accept though that if reintroduced a lot of peoples posting behaviours towards others will have to change or they won’t be lasting very long on it. 

Will close this for now and when we’ve something agreed further down the line we’ll make an announcement. Cheers all

Agree with that. 

Chizz

Initially, at least, the HoC prevented quoting.  Perhaps it would be worth considering bringing that glitch/feature back in order to help dampen the more aggressive, ad hominem attacks. 

aliwibble

TBH I don't think that would help, as people would still behave the same way, it'd just make it more difficult to discern what they were overreacting to.