Supersonic passenger flights

Chizz

Tupolev Tu-144.  Concorde.  Overture.  

The first two were, of course, the initial supersonic passenger aircraft built by the Soviet era OKB, Tupolev Design Bureau and BAC/Sud Aviation, respectively.  And both have long been retired.  

However, Boom (surely a name dreamed up by a losing Apprentice team) have sold up to 60 of its Mach 1.7, supersonic, single class, 88-seat jet to American Airlines, having already cut deals with Virgin Atlantic and United Airlines.  

They are due to roll off the production line in 2025, with the first passenger services planned for 2029.  

So, it won't be long before, once again, we can all dream of being able to afford to fly at faster than the speed of sound.  

I know they're not trains, obviously (that's why I didn't put NSFW on the thread title).  But they're still pretty cool, aren't they?  




https://youtu.be/eYxpWDpwsuY

kentaddick

I thought we'd see these making a come back, with commercial space flights likely in the next 30 years knocking the longest flights down to 8 hours. 

Rothko

that is one sexy looking plane

Dazzler21

That's a cool looking aircraft. 

I imagine it'll be like £5k to New York

Chizz

Dazzler21 said:

That's a cool looking aircraft. 

I imagine it'll be like £5k to New York

The intention is that the seats will roughly be on par with business class seats.  So, assuming they fly the London-New York route (one of the most lucrative in the world) then you're about right.  If you mean each way! 

Rothko

Virgin have an option on them, and I think Virgin Galactic are involved in the development 

RodneyCharltonTrotta

Chizz said:

Tupolev Tu-144.  Concorde.  Overture.  

The first two were, of course, the initial supersonic passenger aircraft built by the Soviet era OKB, Tupolev Design Bureau and BAC/Sud Aviation, respectively.  And both have long been retired.  

However, Boom ...

So that's what TS meant when he was tweeting that. It was a subliminal message to fans that he's a ground floor investor in this great new technological adventure which will see him rake billions.

We're rich!!!

sillav nitram

One of the few moments I’ve ever felt slightly proud to be british, was when I saw Concorde make its maiden flight to Australia, and flying over Sydney, back in the 70’s. 

Obviously not totally british but a collaboration with 🇫🇷.

I actually got to go inside at an Air Museum, can’t remember which one and couldn’t believe how narrow it was.

I’m not the trainspotter type but was genuinely sad when it was retired.

Such a beautiful plane.

Edit- Actually on second thoughts maybe I am a trainspotter, I certainly like the Trans Europe Express and a lot of the bullet trains. Also like ✈️ and classic 🚙 

Is there a trainspotters meet up?

SELR_addicks

There's a separate conversation to have about the environmental impact obviously. 

But with all the delays and changes to the aircraft in such a short amount of time, can see the final model being decades away. 

Chizz

SELR_addicks said:

There's a separate conversation to have about the environmental impact obviously. 

But with all the delays and changes to the aircraft in such a short amount of time, can see the final model being decades away. 

Boom's claim is that the aircraft will be the first to run on 100% Sustainable Aviation Fuel and that it will be "carbon net zero", it will be built in sustainable production facilities that use 100% "clean electricity" and has been designed so that it's easy to dismantle, with limited waste, when it comes to the end of its lifecycle. 

All of these claims will obviously face fierce interrogation from Boeing and Airbus lobbyists, but at least they're starting out in the right way and heading off the obvious criticism that will be levelled against them from day one. 

Oggy Red

Rothko said:

that is one sexy looking plane

Looks like it's straight of the futuristic TV21 comic I used to buy in the 1960s when I was a kid.

Friend Or Defoe

Dazzler21 said:

That's a cool looking aircraft. 

I imagine it'll be like £5k to New York

This is why I can't see it working.

It'll be the equivalent of a first class price, or higher. First class is dying out due to business class offering what most people want, a lie flat bed. LHR to JFK is the most lucrative flight in the world and planes have like 8-12 first class seats and they don't all get sold. Most long-haul routes don't even have first. How many seats will this have, 30-40? I don't think the market is there. It's why Concorde stopped running. Obviously the Paris disaster and 9/11 didn't help but ultimately people were find drinking champagne with more space for an extra 4 hours for a fraction of the price or getting a decent sleep. 

Great design though and quite a few have been sold already, Delta and American have put in big orders. Interesting to see how it pans out.

Those giant windows look amazing!

Mendonca In Asdas

I think i've found a new method of travel to away games, other than train, Accrington in 10 minutes!

MrOneLung

well it was the US that killed off any profitability for Concorde by banning supersonic flight in their airspace in order to protect Boeings market share. 

superclive98

Going back quite a few years now but one of the big bonuses of visiting my mum in Bromley was sitting in her garden and seeing Concorde. It seemed to fly over most afternoons.
Never tired of seeing it and it always stopped me in my tracks whatever I was doing.

iaitch

Been at Sandown races a few times when one has just taken off, wonderful sight.

Captain_Birdseye

SELR_addicks said:

There's a separate conversation to have about the environmental impact obviously. 

But with all the delays and changes to the aircraft in such a short amount of time, can see the final model being decades away. 

I work for a company that manufactured technology for Concorde, and now I’m talking to these new supersonic aerospace companies. They are completely different beasts to the traditional aerospace companies. They iterate fast and suppliers like ourselves have to keep up. Think the difference between NASA and Space X. I think we really are years, not decades, away.

On the environmental front, the return of hydrogen fuel systems to the plans of aerospace companies is different altogether. I believe that is decades (and decades, and decades) away. SAF is the focus in the meantime.

Glovepup

The challenge these companies are working on supersonic planes (there are others not just boom) is avoiding the creation of the sonic boom, Concord was used for London to New York for this reason and could not reach full speed until it was over sea to not break windows etc. 

If they can do that then hopefully it will eventually become more the usual way to travel rather than just those with the cash. 

RickAddick

Glovepup said:

The challenge these companies are working on supersonic planes (there are others not just boom) is avoiding the creation of the sonic boom, Concord was used for London to New York for this reason and could not reach full speed until it was over sea to not break windows etc. 

If they can do that then hopefully it will eventually become more the usual way to travel rather than just those with the cash. 

Concord was originally planned to be used on long haul flights to the far east and Australia (and west coast US?), but the sonic boom impact over land issue relegated it to the London / Paris to New York route (and later pleasure flights) where supersonic flight was possible over the Atlantic.
It therefore became a white elephant from Day 1.
What is going to change with the sonic boom issue to avoid history repeating itself? Difficult to engineer out the laws of physics, surely?

LoOkOuT

No doubt it’s a welcome breakthrough if it can deliver on its promises, but I’m not keen on an aircraft called “Boom.”

sam3110

RickAddick said:

Glovepup said:

The challenge these companies are working on supersonic planes (there are others not just boom) is avoiding the creation of the sonic boom, Concord was used for London to New York for this reason and could not reach full speed until it was over sea to not break windows etc. 

If they can do that then hopefully it will eventually become more the usual way to travel rather than just those with the cash. 

Concord was originally planned to be used on long haul flights to the far east and Australia (and west coast US?), but the sonic boom impact over land issue relegated it to the London / Paris to New York route (and later pleasure flights) where supersonic flight was possible over the Atlantic.
It therefore became a white elephant from Day 1.
What is going to change with the sonic boom issue to avoid history repeating itself? Difficult to engineer out the laws of physics, surely?

Perhaps they can get it to fly higher, or maybe aerodynamic advances mean the "boom" can be made smaller or broken up. 

A fighter jet breaking the sound barrier doesn't usually do a huge amount of damage does it?

Billy_Mix

MrOneLung said:

well it was the US that killed off any profitability for Concorde by banning supersonic flight in their airspace in order to protect Boeings market share. 

Branson and Virgin were prepared to buy the remaining aircraft, airframes and technical staff from BA when BA decided to cease using Concorde.
BA owned the project outright having been given it by UK Gov some years earlier.
But BA were/are still smarting from Branson proving they'd been using dirty and illegal practices against Virgin, and others, to prop up their global market share and dominance of UK airspace.
BA's official version of events is of course very very different.  You'll read endless balls about safety and numbers of competent engineering staff because Concorde was 'old' technology.  Ignoring the fact that Virgin would have had the opportunity to train whoever they liked.
BA literally cut off its own nose out of pure spite and refused to negotiate any sale to Branson and Virgin.  If Virgin had paid BA £Millions for a white elephant WTF would BA care?
As if we needed any more reasons to avoid that shabby overpriced badly run fiasco of a flag carrier.

Rothko

Billy_Mix said:

MrOneLung said:

well it was the US that killed off any profitability for Concorde by banning supersonic flight in their airspace in order to protect Boeings market share. 

Branson and Virgin were prepared to buy the remaining aircraft, airframes and technical staff from BA when BA decided to cease using Concorde.
BA owned the project outright having been given it by UK Gov some years earlier.
But BA were/are still smarting from Branson proving they'd been using dirty and illegal practices against Virgin, and others, to prop up their global market share and dominance of UK airspace.
BA's official version of events is of course very very different.  You'll read endless balls about safety and numbers of competent engineering staff because Concorde was 'old' technology.  Ignoring the fact that Virgin would have had the opportunity to train whoever they liked.
BA literally cut off its own nose out of pure spite and refused to negotiate any sale to Branson and Virgin.  If Virgin had paid BA £Millions for a white elephant WTF would BA care?
As if we needed any more reasons to avoid that shabby overpriced badly run fiasco of a flag carrier.

hmmm thought it had a lot more to do with Airbus not thinking it was economically worthwhile continuing to maintain the planes once Air France decided it was going to ground the fleet. 

Boom

LoOkOuT said:

No doubt it’s a welcome breakthrough if it can deliver on its promises, but I’m not keen on an aircraft called “Boom.”

Up yours.

Huskaris

sam3110 said:

RickAddick said:

Glovepup said:

The challenge these companies are working on supersonic planes (there are others not just boom) is avoiding the creation of the sonic boom, Concord was used for London to New York for this reason and could not reach full speed until it was over sea to not break windows etc. 

If they can do that then hopefully it will eventually become more the usual way to travel rather than just those with the cash. 

Concord was originally planned to be used on long haul flights to the far east and Australia (and west coast US?), but the sonic boom impact over land issue relegated it to the London / Paris to New York route (and later pleasure flights) where supersonic flight was possible over the Atlantic.
It therefore became a white elephant from Day 1.
What is going to change with the sonic boom issue to avoid history repeating itself? Difficult to engineer out the laws of physics, surely?

Perhaps they can get it to fly higher, or maybe aerodynamic advances mean the "boom" can be made smaller or broken up. 

A fighter jet breaking the sound barrier doesn't usually do a huge amount of damage does it?

I have heard people on here saying how loud the noise has been when they have heard fighters breaking the barrier. 

My guess would be that a passenger aircraft would potentially create a much bigger "boom" than a fighter jet given their relative size?

Not my area of expertise of course! 

SporadicAddick

Friend Or Defoe said:

Dazzler21 said:

That's a cool looking aircraft. 

I imagine it'll be like £5k to New York

This is why I can't see it working.

It'll be the equivalent of a first class price, or higher. First class is dying out due to business class offering what most people want, a lie flat bed. LHR to JFK is the most lucrative flight in the world and planes have like 8-12 first class seats and they don't all get sold. Most long-haul routes don't even have first. How many seats will this have, 30-40? I don't think the market is there. It's why Concorde stopped running. Obviously the Paris disaster and 9/11 didn't help but ultimately people were find drinking champagne with more space for an extra 4 hours for a fraction of the price or getting a decent sleep. 

Great design though and quite a few have been sold already, Delta and American have put in big orders. Interesting to see how it pans out.

Those giant windows look amazing!

Concorde was operating profitably for both BA and Air France before the Paris crash. Of course they didn't have any of the development or build costs to amortise, but they were both operating profitably and would have continued to do so, at least until 11th September 2001, had the Paris crash not occurred. 

PragueAddick

Its often forgotten, especially by Americans, that Boeing were desperately trying to get a Concorde rival into the air. It failed. At least the Tupolev got airborne, unfortunately, being Russian, it immediately landed again, nose first, at an airshow, and that was that. 

I was young at the time, but I do remember that all the outcry about a sonic boom issue kicked off after Boeing cancelled its project. I’ve always had suspicions about the issue and Concorde ever since. But maybe it really was an unsurmountable issue. But it also seemed odd to me that it got as far as BA running a billboard campaign advertising the forthcoming Oz services. The billboards comprised three identical photos of a view of Concorde on tarmac from the front, and underneath “Sydney, 9 1/2 hours, Melbourne, 9 1/2 hours, Brisbane 9 1/2 hours”.
Imagine that timing. They’d have been queuing up for tickets, and a lot more Concordes would have been built. 

I’ve always thought there’s a compelling TV doc to be made about how Concorde was shafted.

addix

sam3110 said:

Perhaps they can get it to fly higher, or maybe aerodynamic advances mean the "boom" can be made smaller or broken up. 

A fighter jet breaking the sound barrier doesn't usually do a huge amount of damage does it?

A 'sonic boo' just doesn't sound as impressive as the full boom.

Stig

sam3110 said:

RickAddick said:

Glovepup said:

The challenge these companies are working on supersonic planes (there are others not just boom) is avoiding the creation of the sonic boom, Concord was used for London to New York for this reason and could not reach full speed until it was over sea to not break windows etc. 

If they can do that then hopefully it will eventually become more the usual way to travel rather than just those with the cash. 

Concord was originally planned to be used on long haul flights to the far east and Australia (and west coast US?), but the sonic boom impact over land issue relegated it to the London / Paris to New York route (and later pleasure flights) where supersonic flight was possible over the Atlantic.
It therefore became a white elephant from Day 1.
What is going to change with the sonic boom issue to avoid history repeating itself? Difficult to engineer out the laws of physics, surely?

Perhaps they can get it to fly higher, or maybe aerodynamic advances mean the "boom" can be made smaller or broken up. 

A fighter jet breaking the sound barrier doesn't usually do a huge amount of damage does it?

Not much point in a fighter jet that doesn't do damage 😉

Captain_Birdseye

The full Boom/AA press release mentions ‘more than 600 routes around the world’. That says to me they know where they can and can’t use it.

Lower level aero components go through stages of testing, qualification, pre-series production and then finally full series production. These things are still relatively early on, but definitely ‘metal is being cut’ now.

Forget supersonic anyway, check out these guys for where this is really heading. Again this is happening now, not still up on a whiteboard.

https://www.hermeus.com/

Gribbo

Rothko said:

that is one sexy looking train