@AFKABartram I hope it came across as I was meaning it. Its time to 'stop sweating the Small stuff' and ask serious hard hitting questions!
It did and you're right. There is no point in talking about food, drink, hot water. There is only one topic. Is TS selling up and or changing strategy?
Thanks @Weegie Addick. You Chaired the meeting superbly.
My red line was crossed with the Garner sacking. Unlike JJ he was Thomas's.( Or maybe Martin's.) man. If he wasn't the owners son Martin should be sacked as he employed a manager who they lost confidence in within six months.
I agree that protests are not the answer. What concerns me is that I am feeling more apathetic than angry. I am considering not going Saturday although I will probably get the stream. Even a year ago that would have been unthinkable.
Now discussing Bovril and whether or not hot water in bogs should be discussed at Thursday's meeting.
(I'm not joking)
You should listen to what I was saying!!! I was saying DONT discuss silly stuff like that...put Sandgaard on the spot and talk about heavy stuff like What you gonna do...invest or sell! Fuck me some people!
Reminded me of one of those stressful meetings with Katrien, and some bloke raised about not getting the lid on your soft drink bottle from the kiosks!
👏 to CAST. That went to extra time so cheers to the two Heathers, Lauren and Rebecca and the Guys who spoke. Not sure why John who was passionate isn't a member of CAST and pays £5 but he has his reasons no doubt ?
Are there any fan owned clubs above League 1? In Germany I believe it was Red bull at Leipzig who moved the Goalposts from the 50% ownership by shithousery.
Other than Richard Murray Part 1 with Peter Varney as CEO and the Directors who got Cafc back to the valley, we have always been a basket case of a club. Good people working at cafc and some good players but weird owners going all the way back to the days of the great manager Jimmy Seed.
If Sandgaard has no support now according to Rick anywhere, maybe the questions put to him should be, 'do you want any help with your exit plan '?
Now discussing Bovril and whether or not hot water in bogs should be discussed at Thursday's meeting.
(I'm not joking)
You should listen to what I was saying!!! I was saying DONT discuss silly stuff like that...put Sandgaard on the spot and talk about heavy stuff like What you gonna do...invest or sell! Fuck me some people!
For the first two hours it was clear that they wanted a response from Thomas Sandgaard to the salient points of the charter which was fuck all to do with Hot water, Bovil or loo paper. Did you only join at 9.15 ?
As Heather said he will probably ignore it and it's the next step before the vote of no confidence in his inept Tenure at Cafc.
Jon is I believe, part of @CAFCfansforfans, who previously didn't always see eye to eye with CAST. It's great that the fans are trying to pull together. We are stronger together.
A good meeting with some informative contributions and ideas. An early gripe was Charlton being described as 'our' club and my one question asked one perpetrator of this viewpoint to explain just how this 'concept' works in legal terms. It is not our club, we don't own it. Sad, but true. I understand why people claim this, with emotional and family ties going back decades, but this disney-esque viewpoint is just not realistic in the modern football business world. We can complain about the lack of investment all we like, but it's not our collective £8 million that has to be found every year to fund losses in a business model that is out of control. The fan led review recommendations may improve the fans' lot if they are ever implemented, but this will still be without most fans taking any responsibility for the financial side of their club. The only way the club will ever be run in a fan friendly way (imo) will be for fans to hold a significant stake in the ownership and a degree of financial responsibility. The amount of money the club will burn through per annum is likely to make this position very difficult for our fans to aspire towards. Expecting a super rich footballing sugar daddy to fund the club AND act in the fans' best interest for the majority of decisions is pure fantasy. Sadly. But I think full or partial ownership should be investigated. Thanks to CAST for hosing the meeting and best of luck with future discussions with the Sandgaard clan.
I had to leave after 90 minutes. Did I miss an Ipswich style injury time, a Brazil v Croatia penalty shootout or an old style 30 minutes of boring extra time resulting in a replay?
I was on the call. People on here zeroing in on the women’s team conversation, the hot water in the toilets conversation or the luke warm Bovril conversation are just stirring things up for the sake of it. These were just conversational asides. The main points were covered well. At least CAST is trying to do something about this. I do hope we start being more assertive though. Enough of the bullying from these owners who really think they can push us around. ENOUGH. Fan representation is so important. I raised this as a point in the Q&A, the importance of reinstating the Board fan member position. I think that’s really important as it gives credence to the fans’ point of view. It should make any Owners be more accountable because it’s discussed at board level.
I was on the call. People on here zeroing in on the women’s team conversation, the hot water in the toilets conversation or the luke warm Bovril conversation are just stirring things up for the sake of it. These were just conversational asides. The main points were covered well. At least CAST is trying to do something about this. I do hope we start being more assertive though. Enough of the bullying from these owners who really think they can push us around. ENOUGH. Fan representation is so important. I raised this as a point in the Q&A, the importance of reinstating the Board fan member position. I think that’s really important as it gives credence to the fans’ point of view. It should make any Owners be more accountable because it’s discussed at board level.
I get what you are saying Rob. I was also on the Zoom call. The problem we have is that TS is an owner who: (a) doesn’t listen to anyone else other than his wife (b) doesn’t care what anyone else thinks - including the fans (c) owns the club and, frankly, has the right to do what he wants anyway - as much as don’t want it to be this way, it is.
His narcissistic, stubborn behaviours are his biggest weaknesses that are alienating the fans solely due to the under investment in the club that now genuinely presents a risk of relegation to the 4th tier of English football for the first time in our history. He sold us a picture of ‘kind, rich successful ambitious uncle Tommy is one of us and will quickly bring success and promotion through investing in quality manpower’. That is his biggest devotion to date. As a successful businessman albeit with a limited pot of money available and an unachievable policy to breakeven at an unsuccessful, failing loss making football club, the only likely outcomes of increasing losses that already exceed £7m per year are to (a) sell the club - which really just means get another mug to take on annual losses(unlikely with zero assets on offer) (b) accept defeat and let us go into administration simply to cap financial losses and halt any further revenue investment drain (c) change his behaviours by increasing investment (highly unlikely) and/or truly engage us, the fans, to turn this sinking ship around.
I’m praying for an external saviour AGAIN who has to have bottomless pockets, be willing to lose many millions year on year with a faint hope of eventually getting back to the Premiership promised land of wealth and profit. Presumably they would need to be multi-millionaire, die hard Charlton fans otherwise why would they want to throw away a fortune based on speculative aspirations that carry zero guarantees? Do they exist? It’s all a bit desperate now, isn’t it?
Now discussing Bovril and whether or not hot water in bogs should be discussed at Thursday's meeting.
(I'm not joking)
You should listen to what I was saying!!! I was saying DONT discuss silly stuff like that...put Sandgaard on the spot and talk about heavy stuff like What you gonna do...invest or sell! Fuck me some people!
For the first two hours it was clear that they wanted a response from Thomas Sandgaard to the salient points of the charter which was fuck all to do with Hot water, Bovil or loo paper. Did you only join at 9.15 ?
As Heather said he will probably ignore it and it's the next step before the vote of no confidence in his inept Tenure at Cafc.
I joined at the very beginning. I thought it was a well run meeting and Yes I agree they want a response from TS on the future of the club without doubt. I left my comments to the very end of the meeting trying to say, that this is another crossroads in our clubs future, go and hit him with the hard questions don't let anyone else deflect to the soft questions, I gave my examples, and let's see his reaction. My guess is, as I said last night, he is liable to not answer the hard stuff, which then in my mind, tells CAST and others there from other sections of the fan base, exactly what we need to do going forward.
I was on the call. People on here zeroing in on the women’s team conversation, the hot water in the toilets conversation or the luke warm Bovril conversation are just stirring things up for the sake of it. These were just conversational asides. The main points were covered well. At least CAST is trying to do something about this. I do hope we start being more assertive though. Enough of the bullying from these owners who really think they can push us around. ENOUGH. Fan representation is so important. I raised this as a point in the Q&A, the importance of reinstating the Board fan member position. I think that’s really important as it gives credence to the fans’ point of view. It should make any Owners be more accountable because it’s discussed at board level.
I get what you are saying Rob. I was also on the Zoom call. The problem we have is that TS is an owner who: (a) doesn’t listen to anyone else other than his wife (b) doesn’t care what anyone else thinks - including the fans (c) owns the club and, frankly, has the right to do what he wants anyway - as much as don’t want it to be this way, it is.
His narcissistic, stubborn behaviours are his biggest weaknesses that are alienating the fans solely due to the under investment in the club that now genuinely presents a risk of relegation to the 4th tier of English football for the first time in our history. He sold us a picture of ‘kind, rich successful ambitious uncle Tommy is one of us and will quickly bring success and promotion through investing in quality manpower’. That is his biggest devotion to date. As a successful businessman albeit with a limited pot of money available and an unachievable policy to breakeven at an unsuccessful, failing loss making football club, the only likely outcomes of increasing losses that already exceed £7m per year are to (a) sell the club - which really just means get another mug to take on annual losses(unlikely with zero assets on offer) (b) accept defeat and let us go into administration simply to cap financial losses and halt any further revenue investment drain (c) change his behaviours by increasing investment (highly unlikely) and/or truly engage us, the fans, to turn this sinking ship around.
I’m praying for an external saviour AGAIN who has to have bottomless pockets, be willing to lose many millions year on year with a faint hope of eventually getting back to the Premiership promised land of wealth and profit. Presumably they would need to be multi-millionaire, die hard Charlton fans otherwise why would they want to throw away a fortune based on speculative aspirations that carry zero guarantees? Do they exist? It’s all a bit desperate now, isn’t it?
100%. You have hit the nail on the head. We must do what we can now to protect what we have now but also to protect the future legacy of Charlton Athletic. He will be gone at some point and we’ll just have to deal with whatever that looks like when that happens. Hopefully we the fans will be able to influence the outcome of how he will leave it. I’m not sure of the logistics of how to do that though. Like you say he owns the club and can do what he likes with it. A worry. But, I don’t think we should back down from him. We should give him a battle.
Many years ago I briefly (and foolishly) thought all football clubs should be council owned. Compulsory purchase orders etc.
lol But anything would be better than the torture of the last ten years or so. Buy the freeholds from Duchâtelet for what he paid for them. Would love to see the back of him.
Now discussing Bovril and whether or not hot water in bogs should be discussed at Thursday's meeting.
(I'm not joking)
You should listen to what I was saying!!! I was saying DONT discuss silly stuff like that...put Sandgaard on the spot and talk about heavy stuff like What you gonna do...invest or sell! Fuck me some people!
For the first two hours it was clear that they wanted a response from Thomas Sandgaard to the salient points of the charter which was fuck all to do with Hot water, Bovil or loo paper. Did you only join at 9.15 ?
As Heather said he will probably ignore it and it's the next step before the vote of no confidence in his inept Tenure at Cafc.
I joined at the very beginning. I thought it was a well run meeting and Yes I agree they want a response from TS on the future of the club without doubt. I left my comments to the very end of the meeting trying to say, that this is another crossroads in our clubs future, go and hit him with the hard questions don't let anyone else deflect to the soft questions, I gave my examples, and let's see his reaction. My guess is, as I said last night, he is liable to not answer the hard stuff, which then in my mind, tells CAST and others there from other sections of the fan base, exactly what we need to do going forward.
Well done for saying this. I had to leave the call around 9PM, so missed this part.
It was clear from comments last night that CAST have been struggling to achieve effective engagement with TS, in terms of his unwillingness to take onboard the views of others. But I don't think it would be an overstatement if at Thursday's Fans Forum they tell TS very firmly that he has lost all credibility with supporters who have little confidence that he has the expertise or ability (experience, finances etc etc) to match his ambitions. In fact quite the reverse.
We thank him for saving the club from ESI etc. We can also overlook his silly earlier pronouncements regarding Premier league and Champions League football in 5, 10 years whatever he said. But:
- Results on the pitch are worse (we were 11th in L1 when he arrived, 18th now) - He is turning over managers every 6 months on average, which means there is no stability or continuity in approach - He is not providing sufficient backing in the transfer market and - Similar to the summer he is potentially going in to another transfer window without a manager in situ. Everyone could see which positions needed strengthening in the summer. How will he address that in January? - Attendances are going down - He has an objective to break even in L1, which is just not going to happen and an approach that could see us relegated to L2. - It is clear that behind the scenes things are not going well off the field with many disaffected staff.
Sure, TS can turn around and say he is paying the bills and will do things the way he wants but it clearly isn't working and I don't see a problem in telling him so.
I took part in the debate last night and it saddens me that the good people of the Trust are wasting their time writing a charter to give to TS on Thursday - it is a waste of time. TS tells us he is a successful businessman and as such he must know that his management philosophy is not working at our football club and his wallet also knows that. He has already told us that our job is to turn up and support the team and no more so there's no way he will take any notice of the charter. Our only hope is that he will sell the club, not that there is much to sell.
When criticising an action as I have done with the Trust I should come up with an alternative, but I can't see one so maybe the charter is better than my empty ideas but TS pays the bills and as long as he does he and his family need not listen to us.
One question I wish I had asked last night is what happens if at the end of the season he stops paying the bills and just walks away, can he do that and if so what are the ramifications for our club?
Partial fan ownership got votes because of the dire state we're in now! If we were blowing the league out of the water, it wouldn't have had as much traction.
The white knight model hasn't served us we'll though and I think sharing of ownership is essential as having all ones eggs in the same basket means that the Club's fortunes fluctuate with those of the owner as the two are inexorably linked if it isn't shared.
However, consortium ownership as a model might slow decision making as too many cooks spoil the broth, but on balance I prefer that idea with a fan share element in it.
I thought a lot of the charter stuff was good, but quite frankly comprised statements that ought to be bleedin' obvious to any half decent owner and shouldn't need spelling out.
Edit - I assume I'm right in thinking it's been put together because we have a current owner who doesn't adhere to such principles.
the thing with fan ownership is that you need someone that loves the club, owns the club, ground and training ground and wants to keep spending their money until the fans group are in a place to take over.
hearts are a very good example of how to do it but I'm afraid we don't have an Anne Budge waiting in the wings at Charlton
I took part in the debate last night and it saddens me that the good people of the Trust are wasting their time writing a charter to give to TS on Thursday - it is a waste of time. TS tells us he is a successful businessman and as such he must know that his management philosophy is not working at our football club and his wallet also knows that. He has already told us that our job is to turn up and support the team and no more so there's no way he will take any notice of the charter. Our only hope is that he will sell the club, not that there is much to sell.
When criticising an action as I have done with the Trust I should come up with an alternative, but I can't see one so maybe the charter is better than my empty ideas but TS pays the bills and as long as he does he and his family need not listen to us.
One question I wish I had asked last night is what happens if at the end of the season he stops paying the bills and just walks away, can he do that and if so what are the ramifications for our club?
I agree to a very large degree.
Charters are all very worthy BUT in the cold light of day are an example of corporate BS ** / mission statements etc. They wont change anything and are really just words that state the obvious. They are not wrong per se but they leave with me with a 'so what' feeling.
What they do however is serve as a reminder to TS on the principles which would make him more likely to succeed.
The dialogue can only really be limited to sharing a more stark 'warning' to TS that his current approach and tactics will alienate the fans further and deny him revenue opportunities & ultimately increase his losses. We cant demand anything in reality as we are not paying the bills. But there is merit in highlighting his errors and direction of travel and continue to offer to help fix.
The 'sort it' campaign / slogans don't really wok for me as come across as demands and I don't think that's the best approach.
Ask pointed and specific questions on his plans / level of funding in the squad but don't expect revealing answers. I do find it odd when these FF start asking questions about specific players / positions however - that's just opinion and general football chat. The real questions are what can we afford etc.
Thank you to CAST for hosting last night's meeting so effectively.
To the best of my knowledge, and unlike quite a few EFL owners, TS has never publicly commented on the Fan-Led Review. I wonder whether he has even read it?
If he has, he will know that a number of the clauses in the proposed Addicks Charter mirror recommendations of that review, and while the review may not be enacted in full by this current government, it definitely flags up the direction of the wind for fan involvement.
Perhaps CAST should forward him a link to the review before Thursday's meeting, so he cannot claim to be totally ignorant of it.
👏 to CAST. That went to extra time so cheers to the two Heathers, Lauren and Rebecca and the Guys who spoke. Not sure why John who was passionate isn't a member of CAST and pays £5 but he has his reasons no doubt ?
Are there any fan owned clubs above League 1? In Germany I believe it was Red bull at Leipzig who moved the Goalposts from the 50% ownership by shithousery.
Other than Richard Murray Part 1 with Peter Varney as CEO and the Directors who got Cafc back to the valley, we have always been a basket case of a club. Good people working at cafc and some good players but weird owners going all the way back to the days of the great manager Jimmy Seed.
If Sandgaard has no support now according to Rick anywhere, maybe the questions put to him should be, 'do you want any help with your exit plan '?
All the German clubs except for plastic Leipzig and Hoffenheim are still fan owned. That includes Bayern.
But much as I’m a fan of it, its difficult to see how you could retrofit 50+1in English leagues.
Partial fan ownership got votes because of the dire state we're in now! If we were blowing the league out of the water, it wouldn't have had as much traction.
The white knight model hasn't served us we'll though and I think sharing of ownership is essential as having all ones eggs in the same basket means that the Club's fortunes fluctuate with those of the owner as the two are inexorably linked if it isn't shared.
However, consortium ownership as a model might slow decision making as too many cooks spoil the broth, but on balance I prefer that idea with a fan share element in it.
I thought a lot of the charter stuff was good, but quite frankly comprised statements that ought to be bleedin' obvious to any half decent owner and shouldn't need spelling out.
Edit - I assume I'm right in thinking it's been put together because we have a current owner who doesn't adhere to such principles.
I tend to disagree with this point!
Giving the fans a small ownership of the clubs/property both gives the fanbase a voice, but also a bit of security when things do change - and they will!
A stake in the club would be beneficial to all parties, but wouldn’t necessarily even mean funding from fans but just an agreement with the ownership that it’s a security blanket and almost a ‘not for profit’ stake ownership
I do think the ‘Addicks Charter’ proposal did get somewhat convoluted, especially as people had joined to speak about the current ownership and issues.
The Addicks Charter is clearly a long term proposal, that is there as a reminder to any ownership of what Charlton fans want and what they need in order to fall full behind supporting an ownership!
It did come across as a weapon against TS, especially with the FF coming up, but it’s more of : 1) an advertising piece to potential owners looking In- this is what the fans love/need/desire, if you can provide this then the synergies are untold
2) a reminder of what Charlton fans ,specifically, value and need in order to full support and invest (emotionally and financially) into a club
3) a school-like OFSTED inspection tick sheet - has the ownership achieved all of the things on the charter, is there need for ‘further improvement’ or are we at an outstanding stages
I do think the ‘Addicks Charter’ proposal did get somewhat convoluted, especially as people had joined to speak about the current ownership and issues.
The Addicks Charter is clearly a long term proposal, that is there as a reminder to any ownership of what Charlton fans want and what they need in order to fall full behind supporting an ownership!
It did come across as a weapon against TS, especially with the FF coming up, but it’s more of : 1) an advertising piece to potential owners looking In- this is what the fans love/need/desire, if you can provide this then the synergies are untold
2) a reminder of what Charlton fans ,specifically, value and need in order to full support and invest (emotionally and financially) into a club
3) a school-like OFSTED inspection tick sheet - has the ownership achieved all of the things on the charter, is there need for ‘further improvement’ or are we at an outstanding stages
A question that didn't seem to be addressed (or, I have to say, from my view, didn't seem to have been thought about at all) was how would an "Addicks Charter" (which is a good idea) work with Charlton Fan Ownership (which may also be a good idea)?
There's a fundamental conflict between these two things. If an "Addicks Charter" were adopted in full, there would be absolutely no need whatsoever for any fan ownership of the club. We would know it's being well run, for the right purposes, heafing in the right direction and with a sustainable, stable future. Why then would an element of fan ownership be an improvement?
On the other hand, if a group of fans were able to secure a substantial - even full - stake in the club, how could they possibly adhere to the "Addicks Charter", which required the club and the ground to be held, together? It would put the price of fan ownership up by at least £50m - the amount to buy the "property" from the Belgian.
Fan ownership and the "Addicks Charter" are fundamentally good ideas, in principle. The problem is that they're in conflict.
The Trust have an extremely difficult job in this situation. Balancing the needs of its members, which although may be generally along the same lines re; wanting TS out, are slightly nuanced in how they would like such a message conveyed to TS, versus managing to keep a diplomatic tone in order to manage communications effectively.
I am pretty sure there will be members of the Trust board that would love to tell TS to just do one and get out of the club as soon as possible, but they keep a diplomatic approach for the overall good of communication and resolution.
Personally, I don’t think a charter is of any note on the basis we’re dealing with a twat who has clearly shown running a football club is beyond him, and it will likely be met with some crap about understanding our frustrations and he remains committed etc etc, but these things are never as simple as f*** off get out of our club
I took part in the debate last night and it saddens me that the good people of the Trust are wasting their time writing a charter to give to TS on Thursday - it is a waste of time. TS tells us he is a successful businessman and as such he must know that his management philosophy is not working at our football club and his wallet also knows that. He has already told us that our job is to turn up and support the team and no more so there's no way he will take any notice of the charter. Our only hope is that he will sell the club, not that there is much to sell.
When criticising an action as I have done with the Trust I should come up with an alternative, but I can't see one so maybe the charter is better than my empty ideas but TS pays the bills and as long as he does he and his family need not listen to us.
One question I wish I had asked last night is what happens if at the end of the season he stops paying the bills and just walks away, can he do that and if so what are the ramifications for our club?
It is quite depressing that he’ll just ignore it and try to fob it off. I hope he’s not allowed to. However, the leaders of CAST don’t appear to be naive enough to think TS will take it all on board and I would guess they fully expect him to dismiss and reject the charter, and therefore the values of the club, it’s community and fans. I imagine this will then trigger a request for him to sell the club and I expect protests go up a gear after that.
I took part in the debate last night and it saddens me that the good people of the Trust are wasting their time writing a charter to give to TS on Thursday - it is a waste of time. TS tells us he is a successful businessman and as such he must know that his management philosophy is not working at our football club and his wallet also knows that. He has already told us that our job is to turn up and support the team and no more so there's no way he will take any notice of the charter. Our only hope is that he will sell the club, not that there is much to sell.
When criticising an action as I have done with the Trust I should come up with an alternative, but I can't see one so maybe the charter is better than my empty ideas but TS pays the bills and as long as he does he and his family need not listen to us.
One question I wish I had asked last night is what happens if at the end of the season he stops paying the bills and just walks away, can he do that and if so what are the ramifications for our club?
The Charter is not just for TS though but for future management. The situation with TS is driving the creation of this but the main aim is to have something documented that shows what the fans expect from any ownership/management of the club. It shows from the offset that the fans are engaged and the main component of it should be the communications expectations between the fans and any owners.
Interestingly, having a fan on the Board would give the fans some input into what is going on in any new manager appointment. I know there would be non disclosure constraints but the views of the fans would at least be put over by the representative.
Comments
There is no point in talking about food, drink, hot water.
There is only one topic.
Is TS selling up and or changing strategy?
My red line was crossed with the Garner sacking. Unlike JJ he was Thomas's.( Or maybe Martin's.) man. If he wasn't the owners son Martin should be sacked as he employed a manager who they lost confidence in within six months.
I agree that protests are not the answer. What concerns me is that I am feeling more apathetic than angry. I am considering not going Saturday although I will probably get the stream. Even a year ago that would have been unthinkable.
Are there any fan owned clubs above League 1? In Germany I believe it was Red bull at Leipzig who moved the Goalposts from the 50% ownership by shithousery.
Other than Richard Murray Part 1 with Peter Varney as CEO and the Directors who got Cafc back to the valley, we have always been a basket case of a club. Good people working at cafc and some good players but weird owners going all the way back to the days of the great manager Jimmy Seed.
If Sandgaard has no support now according to Rick anywhere, maybe the questions put to him should be, 'do you want any help with your exit plan '?
For the first two hours it was clear that they wanted a response from Thomas Sandgaard to the salient points of the charter which was fuck all to do with Hot water, Bovil or loo paper. Did you only join at 9.15 ?
As Heather said he will probably ignore it and it's the next step before the vote of no confidence in his inept Tenure at Cafc.
It's great that the fans are trying to pull together.
We are stronger together.
An early gripe was Charlton being described as 'our' club and my one question asked one perpetrator of this viewpoint to explain just how this 'concept' works in legal terms. It is not our club, we don't own it. Sad, but true.
I understand why people claim this, with emotional and family ties going back decades, but this disney-esque viewpoint is just not realistic in the modern football business world.
We can complain about the lack of investment all we like, but it's not our collective £8 million that has to be found every year to fund losses in a business model that is out of control.
The fan led review recommendations may improve the fans' lot if they are ever implemented, but this will still be without most fans taking any responsibility for the financial side of their club.
The only way the club will ever be run in a fan friendly way (imo) will be for fans to hold a significant stake in the ownership and a degree of financial responsibility. The amount of money the club will burn through per annum is likely to make this position very difficult for our fans to aspire towards.
Expecting a super rich footballing sugar daddy to fund the club AND act in the fans' best interest for the majority of decisions is pure fantasy. Sadly.
But I think full or partial ownership should be investigated.
Thanks to CAST for hosing the meeting and best of luck with future discussions with the Sandgaard clan.
(a) doesn’t listen to anyone else other than his wife
(b) doesn’t care what anyone else thinks - including the fans
(c) owns the club and, frankly, has the right to do what he wants anyway - as much as don’t want it to be this way, it is.
His narcissistic, stubborn behaviours are his biggest weaknesses that are alienating the fans solely due to the under investment in the club that now genuinely presents a risk of relegation to the 4th tier of English football for the first time in our history. He sold us a picture of ‘kind, rich successful ambitious uncle Tommy is one of us and will quickly bring success and promotion through investing in quality manpower’. That is his biggest devotion to date. As a successful businessman albeit with a limited pot of money available and an unachievable policy to breakeven at an unsuccessful, failing loss making football club, the only likely outcomes of increasing losses that already exceed £7m per year are to
(a) sell the club - which really just means get another mug to take on annual losses(unlikely with zero assets on offer)
(b) accept defeat and let us go into administration simply to cap financial losses and halt any further revenue investment drain
(c) change his behaviours by increasing investment (highly unlikely) and/or truly engage us, the fans, to turn this sinking ship around.
I’m praying for an external saviour AGAIN who has to have bottomless pockets, be willing to lose many millions year on year with a faint hope of eventually getting back to the Premiership promised land of wealth and profit. Presumably they would need to be multi-millionaire, die hard Charlton fans otherwise why would they want to throw away a fortune based on speculative aspirations that carry zero guarantees? Do they exist? It’s all a bit desperate now, isn’t it?
I left my comments to the very end of the meeting trying to say, that this is another crossroads in our clubs future, go and hit him with the hard questions don't let anyone else deflect to the soft questions, I gave my examples, and let's see his reaction.
My guess is, as I said last night, he is liable to not answer the hard stuff, which then in my mind, tells CAST and others there from other sections of the fan base, exactly what we need to do going forward.
But anything would be better than the torture of the last ten years or so. Buy the freeholds from Duchâtelet for what he paid for them. Would love to see the back of him.
It was clear from comments last night that CAST have been struggling to achieve effective engagement with TS, in terms of his unwillingness to take onboard the views of others. But I don't think it would be an overstatement if at Thursday's Fans Forum they tell TS very firmly that he has lost all credibility with supporters who have little confidence that he has the expertise or ability (experience, finances etc etc) to match his ambitions. In fact quite the reverse.
We thank him for saving the club from ESI etc. We can also overlook his silly earlier pronouncements regarding Premier league and Champions League football in 5, 10 years whatever he said. But:
- Results on the pitch are worse (we were 11th in L1 when he arrived, 18th now)
- He is turning over managers every 6 months on average, which means there is no stability or continuity in approach
- He is not providing sufficient backing in the transfer market and
- Similar to the summer he is potentially going in to another transfer window without a manager in situ. Everyone could see which positions needed strengthening in the summer. How will he address that in January?
- Attendances are going down
- He has an objective to break even in L1, which is just not going to happen and an approach that could see us relegated to L2.
- It is clear that behind the scenes things are not going well off the field with many disaffected staff.
Sure, TS can turn around and say he is paying the bills and will do things the way he wants but it clearly isn't working and I don't see a problem in telling him so.
When criticising an action as I have done with the Trust I should come up with an alternative, but I can't see one so maybe the charter is better than my empty ideas but TS pays the bills and as long as he does he and his family need not listen to us.
One question I wish I had asked last night is what happens if at the end of the season he stops paying the bills and just walks away, can he do that and if so what are the ramifications for our club?
Partial fan ownership got votes because of the dire state we're in now! If we were blowing the league out of the water, it wouldn't have had as much traction.
The white knight model hasn't served us we'll though and I think sharing of ownership is essential as having all ones eggs in the same basket means that the Club's fortunes fluctuate with those of the owner as the two are inexorably linked if it isn't shared.
However, consortium ownership as a model might slow decision making as too many cooks spoil the broth, but on balance I prefer that idea with a fan share element in it.
I thought a lot of the charter stuff was good, but quite frankly comprised statements that ought to be bleedin' obvious to any half decent owner and shouldn't need spelling out.
Edit - I assume I'm right in thinking it's been put together because we have a current owner who doesn't adhere to such principles.
hearts are a very good example of how to do it but I'm afraid we don't have an Anne Budge waiting in the wings at Charlton
Charters are all very worthy BUT in the cold light of day are an example of corporate BS ** / mission statements etc. They wont change anything and are really just words that state the obvious. They are not wrong per se but they leave with me with a 'so what' feeling.
What they do however is serve as a reminder to TS on the principles which would make him more likely to succeed.
The dialogue can only really be limited to sharing a more stark 'warning' to TS that his current approach and tactics will alienate the fans further and deny him revenue opportunities & ultimately increase his losses. We cant demand anything in reality as we are not paying the bills. But there is merit in highlighting his errors and direction of travel and continue to offer to help fix.
The 'sort it' campaign / slogans don't really wok for me as come across as demands and I don't think that's the best approach.
Ask pointed and specific questions on his plans / level of funding in the squad but don't expect revealing answers. I do find it odd when these FF start asking questions about specific players / positions however - that's just opinion and general football chat. The real questions are what can we afford etc.
To the best of my knowledge, and unlike quite a few EFL owners, TS has never publicly commented on the Fan-Led Review. I wonder whether he has even read it?
If he has, he will know that a number of the clauses in the proposed Addicks Charter mirror recommendations of that review, and while the review may not be enacted in full by this current government, it definitely flags up the direction of the wind for fan involvement.
Perhaps CAST should forward him a link to the review before Thursday's meeting, so he cannot claim to be totally ignorant of it.
The Addicks Charter is clearly a long term proposal, that is there as a reminder to any ownership of what Charlton fans want and what they need in order to fall full behind supporting an ownership!
1) an advertising piece to potential owners looking In- this is what the fans love/need/desire, if you can provide this then the synergies are untold
2) a reminder of what Charlton fans ,specifically, value and need in order to full support and invest (emotionally and financially) into a club
3) a school-like OFSTED inspection tick sheet - has the ownership achieved all of the things on the charter, is there need for ‘further improvement’ or are we at an outstanding stages
There's a fundamental conflict between these two things. If an "Addicks Charter" were adopted in full, there would be absolutely no need whatsoever for any fan ownership of the club. We would know it's being well run, for the right purposes, heafing in the right direction and with a sustainable, stable future. Why then would an element of fan ownership be an improvement?
On the other hand, if a group of fans were able to secure a substantial - even full - stake in the club, how could they possibly adhere to the "Addicks Charter", which required the club and the ground to be held, together? It would put the price of fan ownership up by at least £50m - the amount to buy the "property" from the Belgian.
Fan ownership and the "Addicks Charter" are fundamentally good ideas, in principle. The problem is that they're in conflict.
I am pretty sure there will be members of the Trust board that would love to tell TS to just do one and get out of the club as soon as possible, but they keep a diplomatic approach for the overall good of communication and resolution.
Personally, I don’t think a charter is of any note on the basis we’re dealing with a twat who has clearly shown running a football club is beyond him, and it will likely be met with some crap about understanding our frustrations and he remains committed etc etc, but these things are never as simple as f*** off get out of our club