But it’s knockout football. These people continually compare management of football as a whole and it’s not really fair. Pep fucked the CL final, he still had the league and domestic cups to fall back on. National management is a lonely place, you don’t get a second leg or turn your attention to other trophies. You lose by a tiny margin…done. For two years.
We have to be very careful because the money in club football means the attraction of international football, plus the pressure to deliver, makes it a job that not many people want.
Another factor to consider: every country is having the same debate about their national team manager, even the French and the Brazilians.
The nature of international, knockout football means that putting a leash on your most creative players and playing not-to-lose is actually the strategy that wins you tournaments.
They're team has won things and even the French fans have the same gripes about Deschamps as English fans do about Southgate: "why won't he let the creative players play their natural game?", "why are the formations so negative?"
It's because that's how you win tournament football matches. Southgate is the first England manager to understand this and is performing better than anyone that came along in the decades before him because of it.
That's the trouble - everyone thinks they should win like they are Brazil in the 70's and fail to realise that was the exception and not the rule - even Brazil in '94 nearly got found out for that against the ultra defensive Italy - and then they did in '98 with Desailly, Petite and co
Brazil in 94 where also very negative, by their standards. Italy only had one player in their squad numbers 1-11 that wasn't a defender or goal keeper.
their knock-out games in that tournament BTW - Sweden, USA, Holland
Colombia…1-1 Pens Won Sweden…2-0 Won Croatia…1-2 ET Lost Germany…2-0 Won Ukraine…4-0 Won Denmark…2-1 ET Won Italy…1-1 Pens Lost Senegal…3-0 Won France…1-2 Lost
So lost in extra time in our first World Cup semi-final in 28 years after a horrific tournament only 2 years prior.
Lost on penalties in a final where at one stage, we only needed to score a penalty to win it. We didn’t and missed the last two. So close.
Lost to the current World Cup holders who are also favourites to win this year’s tournament. All after being the better side and again agonisingly missing a penalty.
Therefore, you could say we have been 2 penalties away from winning the Euro’s and potentially getting into our second World Cup semi-final in a row.
We also broke the shootout curse by beating Colombia, overcame a Denmark side who had huge motives after what happened to them, in a semi-final in extra time after what happened to England in their previous semi-final at a major tournament. The rest, each win was pretty significant and relatively comfortable.
Not sure what more Southgate could have done. People will point to subs and tactics but I think he’s continued to get better and has become braver. We played well this World Cup and the future is bright with this group. I’ve loved this England side and the culture he has created. I’ll be sad to see him leave if that’s what he chooses.
Colombia…1-1 Pens Won Sweden…2-0 Won Croatia…1-2 ET Lost Germany…2-0 Won Ukraine…4-0 Won Denmark…2-1 ET Won Italy…1-1 Pens Lost Senegal…3-0 Won France…1-2 Lost
All of them we were favourites to win, apart from france
Of course we have done better than previous poor performaces but easy draws and better players as well as solid management has led to this but to me nothing happened that i wouldn't have expected to happen with the matches we won , i know i didn't expect us to lose to croatia
It's tricky. I do think the current English crop need to be treated with kid gloves. They won't respond to a stern type. Southgate has been exceptional in creating an atmosphere that makes all feel comfortable.
However, I don't think we'll ever get over the line with a tame approach.,An aversion to risk taking and permanently playing percentages. But a sterner character will more than likely move things backwards than push us on to ultimate glory I suppose what I'm trying to say is that this will most probably be as good as it gets for us. Maybe we'll get very lucky one day?
When did we last win a knockout game in the Euros or World Cup that we weren't favourite to win ... we've lost a good few when we were favourites
v Germany 2020 Euros I imagine.
England to qualify: 3/4
Germany to qualify: 21/20
no, we were favourites
I would LOVE to go back on CL and see what you were saying pre that game but i'm too lazy and don't care enough.
wow imagine my surprise if a UK based bookie made England favourites at the time.
you're a product of your time mate - i know you've been hurt in the past when everyone was bigging us up
we have never been as good as this despite what happened before. if it's that hard to get maybe you should get some therapy about it.
Someone asked me the other day on here and here was what I wrote before the Germany match
50% England win in 90 mins 30% draw (England 50 % win in ET 30% draw 20% Germany) if it gets to pens England 65% Germany 35% 20% Germany win in 90 mins
It’s coming home
This was my post pre that match an expected win ……but also expected us to win the tournament
It's tricky. I do think the current English crop need to be treated with kid gloves. They won't respond to a stern type. Southgate has been exceptional in creating an atmosphere that makes all feel comfortable.
However, I don't think we'll ever get over the line with a tame approach.,An aversion to risk taking and permanently playing percentages. But a sterner character will more than likely move things backwards than push us on to ultimate glory I suppose what I'm trying to say is that this will most probably be as good as it gets for us. Maybe we'll get very lucky one day?
But this is deliberate and is a reason we have more, relatively, successful. That's how France won the world cup amd have got to the semis again, how Croatia have got to to consecutive semis amd actually how Italy won the euros.
The idea is you stay in the game as long as possible. At 1-0 down your in the game. You aren't going to win games, come a world cup 1/4, by blowing teams away. I would go as far to say it's stupid to even try.
When did we last win a knockout game in the Euros or World Cup that we weren't favourite to win ... we've lost a good few when we were favourites
v Germany 2020 Euros I imagine.
England to qualify: 3/4
Germany to qualify: 21/20
no, we were favourites
I would LOVE to go back on CL and see what you were saying pre that game but i'm too lazy and don't care enough.
wow imagine my surprise if a UK based bookie made England favourites at the time.
you're a product of your time mate - i know you've been hurt in the past when everyone was bigging us up
we have never been as good as this despite what happened before. if it's that hard to get maybe you should get some therapy about it.
Someone asked me the other day on here and here was what I wrote before the Germany match
50% England win in 90 mins 30% draw (England 50 % win in ET 30% draw 20% Germany) if it gets to pens England 65% Germany 35% 20% Germany win in 90 mins
It’s coming home
This was my post pre that match an expected win ……but also expected us to win the tournament
When did we last win a knockout game in the Euros or World Cup that we weren't favourite to win ... we've lost a good few when we were favourites
v Germany 2020 Euros I imagine.
England to qualify: 3/4
Germany to qualify: 21/20
no, we were favourites
I would LOVE to go back on CL and see what you were saying pre that game but i'm too lazy and don't care enough.
wow imagine my surprise if a UK based bookie made England favourites at the time.
you're a product of your time mate - i know you've been hurt in the past when everyone was bigging us up
we have never been as good as this despite what happened before. if it's that hard to get maybe you should get some therapy about it.
Someone asked me the other day on here and here was what I wrote before the Germany match
50% England win in 90 mins 30% draw (England 50 % win in ET 30% draw 20% Germany) if it gets to pens England 65% Germany 35% 20% Germany win in 90 mins
It’s coming home
This was my post pre that match an expected win ……but also expected us to win the tournament
clueless then
good to know
Why clueless 🙄 cos I fancied us to go through v Germany and we did and fancied us to win the tournament and we got to penalties ,
The Euros are 18 months away. Not even two years this time. Southgate seems to have learnt and the USA game showed that Garnerball is not the way to win a game of football. I think he can move on from here and I'd like to see him given one more chance.
When did we last win a knockout game in the Euros or World Cup that we weren't favourite to win ... we've lost a good few when we were favourites
v Germany 2020 Euros I imagine.
England to qualify: 3/4
Germany to qualify: 21/20
no, we were favourites
I would LOVE to go back on CL and see what you were saying pre that game but i'm too lazy and don't care enough.
wow imagine my surprise if a UK based bookie made England favourites at the time.
you're a product of your time mate - i know you've been hurt in the past when everyone was bigging us up
we have never been as good as this despite what happened before. if it's that hard to get maybe you should get some therapy about it.
Someone asked me the other day on here and here was what I wrote before the Germany match
50% England win in 90 mins 30% draw (England 50 % win in ET 30% draw 20% Germany) if it gets to pens England 65% Germany 35% 20% Germany win in 90 mins
It’s coming home
This was my post pre that match an expected win ……but also expected us to win the tournament
clueless then
good to know
Why clueless 🙄 cos I fancied us to go through v Germany and we did and fancied us to win the tournament and we got to penalties ,
lol giving us a 50/50 shot is fancying us?
Ok bud.
honestly i'm just a bit bored of your negativity and "predictions" either say what you think will happen or don't.
60% you get the hump and call me a twat 30% you engage and argue that 50% equals "fancying them" 9% you argue you're not negative all the time 1% you agree with me
When did we last win a knockout game in the Euros or World Cup that we weren't favourite to win ... we've lost a good few when we were favourites
v Germany 2020 Euros I imagine.
England to qualify: 3/4
Germany to qualify: 21/20
no, we were favourites
I would LOVE to go back on CL and see what you were saying pre that game but i'm too lazy and don't care enough.
wow imagine my surprise if a UK based bookie made England favourites at the time.
you're a product of your time mate - i know you've been hurt in the past when everyone was bigging us up
we have never been as good as this despite what happened before. if it's that hard to get maybe you should get some therapy about it.
Someone asked me the other day on here and here was what I wrote before the Germany match
50% England win in 90 mins 30% draw (England 50 % win in ET 30% draw 20% Germany) if it gets to pens England 65% Germany 35% 20% Germany win in 90 mins
It’s coming home
This was my post pre that match an expected win ……but also expected us to win the tournament
clueless then
good to know
Why clueless 🙄 cos I fancied us to go through v Germany and we did and fancied us to win the tournament and we got to penalties ,
lol giving us a 50/50 shot is fancying us?
Ok bud.
honestly i'm just a bit bored of your negativity and "predictions" either say what you think will happen or don't.
I actually think you don’t understand betting which is fair enough I don’t expect everyone to , we can go through in 90 mins / extra time /or pens and at each potential finish to the game I had us as a better chance of winning than Germany .
you said ‘ I would LOVE to go back on CL and see what you were saying pre that game ‘ I provided you with that
“honestly i'm just a bit bored of your negativity and "predictions" either say what you think will happen or don't. “
Negativity , really ,I expected we’d beat Germany and we’d win the tournament.
When did we last win a knockout game in the Euros or World Cup that we weren't favourite to win ... we've lost a good few when we were favourites
v Germany 2020 Euros I imagine.
England to qualify: 3/4
Germany to qualify: 21/20
no, we were favourites
I would LOVE to go back on CL and see what you were saying pre that game but i'm too lazy and don't care enough.
wow imagine my surprise if a UK based bookie made England favourites at the time.
you're a product of your time mate - i know you've been hurt in the past when everyone was bigging us up
we have never been as good as this despite what happened before. if it's that hard to get maybe you should get some therapy about it.
Someone asked me the other day on here and here was what I wrote before the Germany match
50% England win in 90 mins 30% draw (England 50 % win in ET 30% draw 20% Germany) if it gets to pens England 65% Germany 35% 20% Germany win in 90 mins
It’s coming home
This was my post pre that match an expected win ……but also expected us to win the tournament
clueless then
good to know
Why clueless 🙄 cos I fancied us to go through v Germany and we did and fancied us to win the tournament and we got to penalties ,
lol giving us a 50/50 shot is fancying us?
Ok bud.
honestly i'm just a bit bored of your negativity and "predictions" either say what you think will happen or don't.
I actually think you don’t understand betting which is fair enough I don’t expect everyone to , we can go through in 90 mins / extra time /or pens and at each potential finish to the game I had us as a better chance of winning than Germany .
you said ‘ I would LOVE to go back on CL and see what you were saying pre that game ‘ I provided you with that
“honestly i'm just a bit bored of your negativity and "predictions" either say what you think will happen or don't. “
Negativity , really ,I expected we’d beat Germany and we’d win the tournament.
Hope this helps .
Think it's best we leave it there, all due respect. have to agree to disagree sometimes we are all Charlton.
Colombia…1-1 Pens Won Sweden…2-0 Won Croatia…1-2 ET Lost Germany…2-0 Won Ukraine…4-0 Won Denmark…2-1 ET Won Italy…1-1 Pens Lost Senegal…3-0 Won France…1-2 Lost
So lost in extra time in our first World Cup semi-final in 28 years after a horrific tournament only 2 years prior.
Lost on penalties in a final where at one stage, we only needed to score a penalty to win it. We didn’t and missed the last two. So close.
Lost to the current World Cup holders who are also favourites to win this year’s tournament. All after being the better side and again agonisingly missing a penalty.
Therefore, you could say we have been 2 penalties away from winning the Euro’s and potentially getting into our second World Cup semi-final in a row.
We also broke the shootout curse by beating Colombia, overcame a Denmark side who had huge motives after what happened to them, in a semi-final in extra time after what happened to England in their previous semi-final at a major tournament. The rest, each win was pretty significant and relatively comfortable.
Not sure what more Southgate could have done. People will point to subs and tactics but I think he’s continued to get better and has become braver. We played well this World Cup and the future is bright with this group. I’ve loved this England side and the culture he has created. I’ll be sad to see him leave if that’s what he chooses.
Sorry to be pedantic, but at no point during the England v Italy penalties, was it score to win for us.
We are two thirds the way up the mountain with Gareth Southgate, he is as much the reason we have done so well.as the players he clearly trusts them and they him. Do not upset this applecart
Madness not to stick with Southgate. But if he decides to leave let's make sure we get the best English manager and not a foreigner.
I never get this.
Having to have an Engliah manager led us to McClaren over Hiddink, for example.
Capello wasn't right for England, for example, but neither was Keegan, McClaren etc.
Not saying an English manager won't be right this time if Southgate goes, but in general I'd just want the best person for rhe job regardless of nationality.
I think its a tough one, Southgate deserves a lot of credit. But equally we have been fortunate, everything goes hand in hand and we have been a tad unlucky in stages.
For now, i am happy for him to stay, if we had a poor performance against France i would be saying he should leave.
We are fickle, we have had some great runs of late. However equally there have been performances like USA/ Italy where we have not imposed ourselves and been overly defensive in others.
Equally i woudn't be unhappy if we had Howe/Potter in charge, but i don't really see them jumping in just yet.
Being a manager at International Level is very different to club level. I think Southgate has done an excellent job of making England as close to a club side as possible.
Putting nationality aside: Tuchel: has had a problem managing what we'll call "Stakeholders" going back to his days with Dortmund. He is very much a systems coach, and a systems coach is not one who usually comes in and provides short-term success. They're usually best for medium-to-long term view of changing and improving. England have the players to win now.
Poch: A lot of the above applies here as well. I think his time at PSG is quite instructive, and he really struggled there (not just in terms of results, but in terms of his ability to manage a difficult squad that doesn't fit together well).
I don't know that either would take the job (Note: Athletic are reporting that Tuchel would be interested).
The Athletic had Arsene Wenger in the mix. That's not really worth discussing. He's a FIFA shill now, and the game looked like it had passed him by a decade ago. Even though international football evolves slower than club football, I still think he's out of touch and unlikely to take on another coaching job.
Potter/Howe: Both are systems coaches to an extent, but not quite as much as Tuchel/Poch, and both have taken over teams midway through a season and been able to impart a way of playing on them. That being said, I don't see either leaving their posts at this point or any time soon.
Gerrard/Lampard: Not individually, but together. They can keep their club job, and when one goes to England, the other stays, and vice versa. Seriously though, neither look like particularly good coaches. And while international football is more vibes-based than club football, I don't know that either are particularly great "Vibes Guys." They really only have their current jobs as a result of their successful playing careers. I think both are probably at the pinnacle of their coaching careers. And the media would be absolutely insufferable.
Sean Dyche: No. Absolutely not.
Jose Mourinho: Lol. He could have had it at various points over the last 15 years, and now, who would want him?
The Athletic also had Luis Enrique on their list. Rumor had it that he was looking to get back into club football after this World Cup regardless of the outcome. He can be a very good coach, and an incredibly erratic one as well. It would almost certainly be fun, and weird, regardless. I'd be in favor of this one.
Marcelo Bielsa: Everyone should hire Marcelo Bielsa when they can. I felt this way about Charlton for years. It will only last a couple of years, but it could be glorious. And the nation could fall in love with this anorak all over again. It'd be great for the Man City and Arsenal players used to pressing (and who are coached by a Bielsa-disciple and a Bielsa-disciple disciple). Whether you keep Southgate or bring in Bielsa, we all know that England are one day going to be built around Kalvin Phillips. And I am here for it.
Wegman is also listed in the Athletic story, but I can't see the FA doing that for many reasons, and I have no idea if she would want it, but if she does, I think she should earn at least serious consideration.
Apart from Bobby Robson, we'd never seen a good English manager doing the job abroad.
By that I mean in respected leagues like the bundesliga, serie A, la liga etc.
The premier league holds a history of European coaches and they often do very well over here.
The premier league is attractive and the English lot want to stay home, but I think it would be ideal if young English coaches go abroad to learn the trade. It will expand their experience and understanding.
The Lampard and Rooneys of this world should try and get coaching experience in europe while they are still relatively young
Apart from Bobby Robson, we'd never seen a good English manager doing the job abroad.
By that I mean in respected leagues like the bundesliga, serie A, la liga etc.
The premier league holds a history of European coaches and they often do very well over here.
The premier league is attractive and the English lot want to stay home, but I think it would be ideal if young English coaches go abroad to learn the trade. It will expand their experience and understanding.
The Lampard and Rooneys of this world should try and get coaching experience in europe while they are still relatively young
Like DC United?
To be fair there are instances where English Managers when out of work are going abroad and learning - Eddie Howe prior to taking the Newcastle job had been in Europe learning from Diego Simeone etc.
Comments
1 x winners.
1 x times runners up.
4 x losing semi finals.
That's shocking. Even when we lose in the quarters we have only lost to the winners twice.
Winner 3 %
Runners up 3%
Losing semi finalists 12%
Robbed 6%
Total dog shit 76%
Under Southgate that improves some what, doesn't it?
Lost on penalties in a final where at one stage, we only needed to score a penalty to win it. We didn’t and missed the last two. So close.
Lost to the current World Cup holders who are also favourites to win this year’s tournament. All after being the better side and again agonisingly missing a penalty.
We also broke the shootout curse by beating Colombia, overcame a Denmark side who had huge motives after what happened to them, in a semi-final in extra time after what happened to England in their previous semi-final at a major tournament. The rest, each win was pretty significant and relatively comfortable.
Not sure what more Southgate could have done. People will point to subs and tactics but I think he’s continued to get better and has become braver. We played well this World Cup and the future is bright with this group. I’ve loved this England side and the culture he has created. I’ll be sad to see him leave if that’s what he chooses.
England to qualify: 3/4
Germany to qualify: 21/20
no, we were favourites
Of course we have done better than previous poor performaces but easy draws and better players as well as solid management has led to this but to me nothing happened that i wouldn't have expected to happen with the matches we won , i know i didn't expect us to lose to croatia
I do think the current English crop need to be treated with kid gloves. They won't respond to a stern type. Southgate has been exceptional in creating an atmosphere that makes all feel comfortable.
However, I don't think we'll ever get over the line with a tame approach.,An aversion to risk taking and permanently playing percentages.
But a sterner character will more than likely move things backwards than push us on to ultimate glory
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that this will most probably be as good as it gets for us. Maybe we'll get very lucky one day?
wow imagine my surprise if a UK based bookie made England favourites at the time.
you're a product of your time mate - i know you've been hurt in the past when everyone was bigging us up
we have never been as good as this despite what happened before. if it's that hard to get maybe you should get some therapy about it.
50% England win in 90 mins
30% draw (England 50 % win in ET 30% draw 20% Germany) if it gets to pens England 65% Germany 35%
20% Germany win in 90 mins
It’s coming home
The idea is you stay in the game as long as possible. At 1-0 down your in the game. You aren't going to win games, come a world cup 1/4, by blowing teams away. I would go as far to say it's stupid to even try.
good to know
and fancied us to win the tournament and we got to penalties ,
Ok bud.
honestly i'm just a bit bored of your negativity and "predictions" either say what you think will happen or don't.
60% you get the hump and call me a twat
30% you engage and argue that 50% equals "fancying them"
9% you argue you're not negative all the time
1% you agree with me
you said ‘ I would LOVE to go back on CL and see what you were saying pre that game ‘ I provided you with that
“honestly i'm just a bit bored of your negativity and "predictions" either say what you think will happen or don't. “
Hope this helps .
His Charlton TV loyalty no longer makes him 16/1 any more.
The bookies have given up!
Having to have an Engliah manager led us to McClaren over Hiddink, for example.
Capello wasn't right for England, for example, but neither was Keegan, McClaren etc.
Not saying an English manager won't be right this time if Southgate goes, but in general I'd just want the best person for rhe job regardless of nationality.
For now, i am happy for him to stay, if we had a poor performance against France i would be saying he should leave.
We are fickle, we have had some great runs of late. However equally there have been performances like USA/ Italy where we have not imposed ourselves and been overly defensive in others.
Equally i woudn't be unhappy if we had Howe/Potter in charge, but i don't really see them jumping in just yet.
Putting nationality aside:
Tuchel: has had a problem managing what we'll call "Stakeholders" going back to his days with Dortmund. He is very much a systems coach, and a systems coach is not one who usually comes in and provides short-term success. They're usually best for medium-to-long term view of changing and improving. England have the players to win now.
Poch: A lot of the above applies here as well. I think his time at PSG is quite instructive, and he really struggled there (not just in terms of results, but in terms of his ability to manage a difficult squad that doesn't fit together well).
I don't know that either would take the job (Note: Athletic are reporting that Tuchel would be interested).
The Athletic had Arsene Wenger in the mix. That's not really worth discussing. He's a FIFA shill now, and the game looked like it had passed him by a decade ago. Even though international football evolves slower than club football, I still think he's out of touch and unlikely to take on another coaching job.
Potter/Howe: Both are systems coaches to an extent, but not quite as much as Tuchel/Poch, and both have taken over teams midway through a season and been able to impart a way of playing on them. That being said, I don't see either leaving their posts at this point or any time soon.
Gerrard/Lampard: Not individually, but together. They can keep their club job, and when one goes to England, the other stays, and vice versa. Seriously though, neither look like particularly good coaches. And while international football is more vibes-based than club football, I don't know that either are particularly great "Vibes Guys." They really only have their current jobs as a result of their successful playing careers. I think both are probably at the pinnacle of their coaching careers. And the media would be absolutely insufferable.
Sean Dyche: No. Absolutely not.
Jose Mourinho: Lol. He could have had it at various points over the last 15 years, and now, who would want him?
The Athletic also had Luis Enrique on their list. Rumor had it that he was looking to get back into club football after this World Cup regardless of the outcome. He can be a very good coach, and an incredibly erratic one as well. It would almost certainly be fun, and weird, regardless. I'd be in favor of this one.
Marcelo Bielsa: Everyone should hire Marcelo Bielsa when they can. I felt this way about Charlton for years. It will only last a couple of years, but it could be glorious. And the nation could fall in love with this anorak all over again. It'd be great for the Man City and Arsenal players used to pressing (and who are coached by a Bielsa-disciple and a Bielsa-disciple disciple). Whether you keep Southgate or bring in Bielsa, we all know that England are one day going to be built around Kalvin Phillips. And I am here for it.
Wegman is also listed in the Athletic story, but I can't see the FA doing that for many reasons, and I have no idea if she would want it, but if she does, I think she should earn at least serious consideration.
https://theathletic.com/3967354/2022/12/12/who-should-take-over-as-england-coach-after-southgate/
I think keeping Southgate is far and away the best option.
By that I mean in respected leagues like the bundesliga, serie A, la liga etc.
The premier league holds a history of European coaches and they often do very well over here.
The premier league is attractive and the English lot want to stay home, but I think it would be ideal if young English coaches go abroad to learn the trade. It will expand their experience and understanding.
The Lampard and Rooneys of this world should try and get coaching experience in europe while they are still relatively young
To be fair there are instances where English Managers when out of work are going abroad and learning - Eddie Howe prior to taking the Newcastle job had been in Europe learning from Diego Simeone etc.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/eddie-howes-diego-simeone-lesson-25317301