The Immortals of English Cricket

Blackheathen

A fascinating book, full of good stories and statistics.  Author Bill Ricquier sets out to create a well-balanced team, one that could feasibly play an imaginary Test match, a team whose individual abilities would complement each other.  He profiles the 11 players who he considers the all time greats to make up his England XI.  The question is, who would you include and leave out of his list of Immortals?

His team is:

Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Walter Hammond
Denis Compton
Ben Stokes
Ian Botham
Alan Knott
Wilfred Rhodes
Fred Trueman
Sydney Barnes
James Anderson

I was surprised to see Godfrey Evans not included but reading about Alan Knott’s batting I’m not surprised. Mike Brierley rated Knott the greatest of all wicketkeepers.  Pity there is no room for Colin Cowdrey.  And how about Stuart Surridge to skipper a team of all-time greats - the inspirational captain who led Surrey to so many county championships (5 or 6 from memory) in the 1950s.

The author gives his reasons for not selecting WG Grace, Larwood, Herbert Sutcliffe, Gower, Alistair Cook and Boycott.  He had a problem comparing Grace “who stands alone in cricket’s pantheon” with more “modern” cricketers.  Also, the intention of Ricquier was to avoid naming any cricketers currently playing, but having named Stokes he had to include James Anderson.  First on his team list was Ian Botham.

Presumably Fred Trueman would open the bowling with James Anderson and perhaps Stokes or Botham first change.  Syd Barnes, right arm medium would be another option.  Wilfred Rhodes - right-handed bat and slow left arm bowler could come on as the spin change.

The author, cricket writer and blog writer of “From the Pavilion End” which focuses on current cricket events, also explores the game’s rich history.  He is a lawyer who has practiced and taught law in England and Singapore or over 30 years.

bobmunro

Where's Underwood?

Seriously there would always be differences of opinion but I'm sure that wouldn't detract from it being a very good read.

Big_Bad_World

bobmunro said:

Where's Underwood?

Seriously there would always be differences of opinion but I'm sure that wouldn't detract from it being a very good read.

Rory or Tony?

CHG

Strong XI. Only Anderson from the number one team in the world around 13 years ago. Cook unlucky but Hobbs And Hutton couldn’t be moved. 

cantersaddick

As if my great great uncle (i think thats the right number of greats) didn't make the cut  he did the "double" 8 times (1000runs and 100 wickets in a season) wisden cricketer of the year in 1914

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Relf

kentaddick

no freddie flintoff? Graeme swann? On their day game winners and (imo) unique players. 

Pelling1993

No Alistair Cook is laughable 

Pelling1993

Not sure when it was written but Root walks in too

kentaddick

Pelling1993 said:

No Alistair Cook is laughable 

yep a big call leaving out your two all time leading run scorers.

Blackheathen

Derek Underwood was included in the author’s alternative XI Bob.  

He would have to replace Wilfred Rhodes though whose career began in 1898 (he played his first Test under WG  Grace who was playing his final Test) and ended in 1930.  He took over 4,000 first class wickets and scored almost 40,000 runs.  He played a pivotal role, in a number of guises, in some famous England victories.  On drying wickets after heavy rainfall Rhodes could be unplayable.  On perfect batting wickets he was extraordinarily difficult to get away, once claiming, probably with tongue in cheek, that he was never cut.

Bill Ricquier’s alternative eleven is:

H. Sutcliffe
G. Boycott
K. Barrington
P. May
D. Gower
A. Grieg (c)
G. Evans
H. Larwood
J. Snow
A. Bedser
D. Underwood

kentaddick

Blackheathen said:

Derek Underwood was included in the author’s alternative XI Bob.  

He would have to replace Wilfred Rhodes though whose career began in 1898 (he played his first Test under WG  Grace who was playing his final Test) and ended in 1930.  He took over 4,000 first class wickets and scored almost 40,000 runs.  He played a pivotal role, in a number of guises, in some famous England victories.  On drying wickets after heavy rainfall Rhodes could be unplayable.  On perfect batting wickets he was extraordinarily difficult to get away, once claiming, probably with tongue in cheek, that he was never cut.

Bill Ricquier’s alternative eleven is:

H. Sutcliffe
G. Boycott
K. Barrington
P. May
D. Gower
A. Grieg (c)
G. Evans
H. Larwood
J. Snow
A. Bedser
D. Underwood

Today I learned I'm kent village cricket's wilfred rhodes

killerandflash

Pelling1993 said:

No Alistair Cook is laughable 

Cook may be our greatest ever run scorer, and was clearly a great England player, but his run total was also down to longevity and the increased number of Tests played these days. 

Chizz

cantersaddick said:

As if my great great uncle (i think thats the right number of greats) didn't make the cut  he did the "double" 8 times (1000runs and 100 wickets in a season) wisden cricketer of the year in 1914

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Relf

I hope you inherited his magnificent moustache

killerandflash

I'd question the place of Stokes in that team, who to me would be backup to Botham, as we don't need 2 all rounders.

At 5 I'd want a "proper" batsman, someone like Root averaging around 50, plus he can bowl some offspin too.

bobmunro

Blackheathen said:

Derek Underwood was included in the author’s alternative XI Bob.  

He would have to replace Wilfred Rhodes though whose career began in 1898 (he played his first Test under WG  Grace who was playing his final Test) and ended in 1930.  He took over 4,000 first class wickets and scored almost 40,000 runs.  He played a pivotal role, in a number of guises, in some famous England victories.  On drying wickets after heavy rainfall Rhodes could be unplayable.  On perfect batting wickets he was extraordinarily difficult to get away, once claiming, probably with tongue in cheek, that he was never cut.

Bill Ricquier’s alternative eleven is:

H. Sutcliffe
G. Boycott
K. Barrington
P. May
D. Gower
A. Grieg (c)
G. Evans
H. Larwood
J. Snow
A. Bedser
D. Underwood

MCC didn't even make the second team!!

Rhodes comfortably tops Deadly on the runs side but not for test bowling figures. But Rhodes makes sense if he's in at eight - Underwood was the classic number 11 (and occasional night watchman).

Addick Addict

I would probably have replaced Stokes with Tony Greig who had a much better batting average (over 40), similar bowling average but more economical and who could also bowl spin as well as seam up. He scored hundreds overseas against all types of bowling in Australia (against the likes of Lillee/Thompson/Walker), the West Indies (Roberts/Holding/Sobers/Gibbs) and India (Chandrasekha and Bedi). He was also a very good captain albeit somewhat infamous for his "grovelling" interview.

thickandthin63

Would have found a place for Cowdrey or May,both made batting look so elegant and easy,even against the great Aussie and West Indies seamers(No helmets in those days)

kentaddick

killerandflash said:

Pelling1993 said:

No Alistair Cook is laughable 

Cook may be our greatest ever run scorer, and was clearly a great England player, but his run total was also down to longevity and the increased number of Tests played these days. 

which surely makes him better - as he can do it more consistently over a longer period.

Lincsaddick

far too many of 'the chosen' were playing before most of us were born .. easy to base 'greatness/immortality' on  statistics without assessing talent and live performance with the naked eye .. anyway, any such list is always good for stimulating debate

bobmunro

Lincsaddick said:

far too many of 'the chosen' were playing before most of us were born .. easy to base 'greatness/immortality' on  statistics without assessing talent and live performance with the naked eye .. anyway, any such list is always good for stimulating debate

100% agree. Test cricket in the Victorian and Edwardian eras was almost certainly not as competitive and talent rich as say from the 50s onwards.

PaddyP17

No Gooch or Root in either side?! I mean Gower himself said the following on Gooch - I was never destined to be on the ball 100 per cent of the time. I don't have the same ability that Graham Gooch has, to produce something very close to his best every time he plays.

Obviously this is here to spark debate but I think it's wrong to leave out all three of England's most prolific run scorers from the "1st XI".

Leuth

Stokes in England's all-time Test XI? Absolute madness. Pick a better batsman there (Root def a far better candidate)

MrOneLung

cantersaddick said:

As if my great great uncle (i think thats the right number of greats) didn't make the cut  he did the "double" 8 times (1000runs and 100 wickets in a season) wisden cricketer of the year in 1914

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Relf

Haven't we all got a relative that has been in the Wisden cricketeer of the year list ?

Leuth

(Pietersen also a much better candidate AND a player who did what Stokes does except better, lol)

McBobbin

What about KP instead of Stokes? He's a Berk, but was one of the most electrifying batsmen we've had

kentaddick

Pietersen is easily one of the most unique talents we've ever had. Needs to go straight into the side imo. 

thai malaysia addick

As fielding standards have improved markedly since the days of some of those players, I reckon quite a few runs would go adrift in the field.

killerandflash

Just like all time Charlton teams, it's really hard to judge modern day players versus ones from your younger years who give you rose-tinted memories, and those who played before you were born.

Off the top of my head, just choosing players I've seen (on TV or live)

Boycott
Gooch
Gower
Root
Thorpe
Botham
Knott
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Willis

Which is slightly coloured by trying to imagine how some of the more recent players would have coped with the Windies pace quartet of the 80s

kentaddick

killerandflash said:

Just like all time Charlton teams, it's really hard to judge modern day players versus ones from your younger years who give you rose-tinted memories, and those who played before you were born.

Off the top of my head, just choosing players I've seen (on TV or live)

Boycott
Gooch
Gower
Root
Thorpe
Botham
Knott
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Willis

Which is slightly coloured by trying to imagine how some of the more recent players would have coped with the Windies pace quartet of the 80s

no disrespect to thorpe as he was our only test level batsman in an extremely poor side at the time but he doesn't get in a look in on that side, especially not in front of pietersen.

killerandflash

kentaddick said:

killerandflash said:

Just like all time Charlton teams, it's really hard to judge modern day players versus ones from your younger years who give you rose-tinted memories, and those who played before you were born.

Off the top of my head, just choosing players I've seen (on TV or live)

Boycott
Gooch
Gower
Root
Thorpe
Botham
Knott
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Willis

Which is slightly coloured by trying to imagine how some of the more recent players would have coped with the Windies pace quartet of the 80s

no disrespect to thorpe as he was our only test level batsman in an extremely poor side at the time but he doesn't get in a look in on that side, especially not in front of pietersen.

He averaged 44.66 is a very poor side. Imagine how many runs he would have scored striding to the crease with more runs on the board AND a better England set up.

KP is of course hard to leave out.

thickandthin63

killerandflash said:

Just like all time Charlton teams, it's really hard to judge modern day players versus ones from your younger years who give you rose-tinted memories, and those who played before you were born.

Off the top of my head, just choosing players I've seen (on TV or live)

Boycott
Gooch
Gower
Root
Thorpe
Botham
Knott
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Willis

Which is slightly coloured by trying to imagine how some of the more recent players would have coped with the Windies pace quartet of the 80s

I agree,even further back when Wesley Hall and Charlie Griffith were chucking them down,against un protected batsman,dont forget when Lillee and Thompson where at their peak Boycott somehow decided he needed a break from test cricket.