Next Manager?

BigDiddy

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Billericaydickie said:

Every manager since Lee Bowyer has been shite.

I say get rid of Appleton and start again.

One day we will get lucky and end up with another Curbs or Lennie. Not every manager is shite. By the law of averages employ enough managers and eventually we will strike gold. 

There's a common factor at play here. The squad of players are shite.

Pep or Klopp would struggle to get this lot anywhere near the play offs. We haven't had a decent full back for what seems like years, our centre backs are poor and there's no creativity in midfield.

So we can continue recycling managers every few months and hope we 'strike gold' but it's far more likely that we won't do anything until the squad is actually improved.

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Billericaydickie said:

Every manager since Lee Bowyer has been shite.

I say get rid of Appleton and start again.

One day we will get lucky and end up with another Curbs or Lennie. Not every manager is shite. By the law of averages employ enough managers and eventually we will strike gold. 

There's a common factor at play here. The squad of players are shite.

Pep or Klopp would struggle to get this lot anywhere near the play offs. We haven't had a decent full back for what seems like years, our centre backs are poor and there's no creativity in midfield.

So we can continue recycling managers every few months and hope we 'strike gold' but it's far more likely that we won't do anything until the squad is actually improved.

Appleton looks bored and clueless.

Does that help ?

TonyWebstersShed

Swisdom said:

As much as it pains me - Tony Mowbray is out of work.  He may be a bit boring but he’s quite effective and knows how to coach a defence.

Alternatively Michael Duff performed well until his last job.

as daft as it might seem getting rid of Appleton …I was at the Cray Valley and Gillingham games and they remain 2 of the worst games in my lifetime.  Not only that…Appleton has lost a lot of the goodwill of the fans and it’s incredibly hard to win it back.

I can't see it but one thing Mowbray has going for him is his reputation for developing young players, which would appeal to those making the decisions. It was a key reason why players like Harvey Elliott were sent on loan spells to Blackburn. 

Valley11

Really don’t agree that the squad is shite.
Hector and Jones should be one of the top centre backs pairings at this level.
Dobson is a serial player of the year contender and Fraser has commanded big transfer fees at this level. May is the country’s top scorer this calendar year and CBT is the best left winger in League 1.
You’ve got more than enough there to build a competitive squad around. 

But there’s no style of play and no urgency and desire. That comes from the manager. 

ElfsborgAddick

Mowbray would want a salary far away than what Holden and Appleton were/are getting paid.
This mob want 'yes men' and I don't think he would fit the bill.

valleynick66

This is all nonsense. Appleton is an  average non descript manager. He has minimal Impact on who we sign. He influences very little. 

I can no longer readily name who is on the coaching side as they are all unimpressive / silent / transient. 

I barely know which of our players are loans or perm signings as none are truly long term. 

We are going through the motions. 

Until we appoint a manager for the medium term and let them determine who to sign little will change. Appleton is not the answer. 

Airman Brown

bigstemarra said:

Appleton should never have been appointed in the first place; this is not the inspirational, forward-thinking candidate that you choose to head up your exciting new project; he is by nature, a mid-table plodder and a standard cheap option for an unambitious board.

That told us all we needed to know about our brave new era under Methven and Co.

Yet another era of cheap options, sub-standard personnel and the desperate throwing of the dice in the vain hopes that you will somehow get luck[y and manage to achieve success, by luck, rather than judgement.

It's been said before, but the impending doom for our once great club began when Mr Murray decided that becoming part of a deluded, egotistical Belgian's pie in the sky network was a decent option in terms of stability.

The resultant separation of ground from playing assets has proved a big enough red flag to frighten off multiple successive potential suitors who could have actually dragged this club back up from the doldrums.  Without this albatross around our collective necks, there is no reason why we could not be seen as an attractive investment proposition given our location and the current fashion amongst US and Middle-Eastern investors, in particular.

So all we have left are chancers; the type who appoint the terminally mediocre and then cross their collective fingers that this will somehow transform into on-field success.  

The type who buy constantly injured but good players and cross their collective fingers that they will somehow miraculously stay fit and deliver success on the pitch, rather than spend the majority of their contract on the treatment table.

The type who will throw young, promising, untested youth players into the fray, destroying their fragile confidence in the hopes that......well, you get the point.

So, what will their next throw of the dice be?

I'd like them to appoint someone distinctly un-mediocre as the next manager (as we are clearly going nowhere but downwards under the current incumbent), but sadly it is most likely that they either won't touch us with a bargepole, or that the management are simply not prepared to spend the money prepared to do so.

As for January reinforcements, until the above is resolved, it will just be more waste upon the millions wasted already to no discernible benefit.

Depressing as it may be, I can't see things improving, indeed if they ever do, for some considerable time.  If you keep serving up shit, you cannot expect supporters to lap it up, so our crowds will dwindle and we will face the prospect of a demise due to sheer apathy. 

All that we can do is adopt a classic Charlton mindset that has served us well for years; expect the worst but hope for the best.

I wish that I could be more optimistic, but I am a realist.

Happy New Year, Addicks.

Murray was unquestionably at fault in propping up Duchatelet, but he had nothing to do with the latter buying the club. That was the Spivs, who owned 90% from 2010 onwards and were desperate for someone to pay off the loans they had taken out.

queensland_addick

The argument that we need to put a stop the managerial merry go round, is a fair one.
But only if we are convinced that he has both the appetite and skillset to do the job well.

Some of his recent baffling decisions and his general demeanour, suggest to me that we are wasting our time with him.
The younger players are going backwards. Tyrece is a shadow of the player he was.
L Watson looked to be such an exciting young loan signing, now nothing.
Alfie has lost his buzz. 
He had initial success because players returned from injury and Appleton drew praise from players and fans alike, for uncomplicating things and simply playing players in their correct positions.
All that has now gone out of the window. He's playing players all over the shop, basically just clutching at straws 
Anyone could do that !

Cloudworm

Simonsen said:

Assuming MA gets booted out soon, I'd be looking outside the usual League One faces.

How about Steve Bould? (currently Igor's manager at Lommel). 

Not a bad shout. Freddie Ljungberg would also do. Neither would touch us though probably.

Chris_from_Sidcup

BigDiddy said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Billericaydickie said:

Every manager since Lee Bowyer has been shite.

I say get rid of Appleton and start again.

One day we will get lucky and end up with another Curbs or Lennie. Not every manager is shite. By the law of averages employ enough managers and eventually we will strike gold. 

There's a common factor at play here. The squad of players are shite.

Pep or Klopp would struggle to get this lot anywhere near the play offs. We haven't had a decent full back for what seems like years, our centre backs are poor and there's no creativity in midfield.

So we can continue recycling managers every few months and hope we 'strike gold' but it's far more likely that we won't do anything until the squad is actually improved.

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Billericaydickie said:

Every manager since Lee Bowyer has been shite.

I say get rid of Appleton and start again.

One day we will get lucky and end up with another Curbs or Lennie. Not every manager is shite. By the law of averages employ enough managers and eventually we will strike gold. 

There's a common factor at play here. The squad of players are shite.

Pep or Klopp would struggle to get this lot anywhere near the play offs. We haven't had a decent full back for what seems like years, our centre backs are poor and there's no creativity in midfield.

So we can continue recycling managers every few months and hope we 'strike gold' but it's far more likely that we won't do anything until the squad is actually improved.

Appleton looks bored and clueless.

Does that help ?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not for a single second sat here thinking Appleton is the answer. I just feel there's far bigger issues than the manager, namely that our squad isn't good enough to be a promotion contender, and changing the manager isn't going to really solve that.

shirty5

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

BigDiddy said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Billericaydickie said:

Every manager since Lee Bowyer has been shite.

I say get rid of Appleton and start again.

One day we will get lucky and end up with another Curbs or Lennie. Not every manager is shite. By the law of averages employ enough managers and eventually we will strike gold. 

There's a common factor at play here. The squad of players are shite.

Pep or Klopp would struggle to get this lot anywhere near the play offs. We haven't had a decent full back for what seems like years, our centre backs are poor and there's no creativity in midfield.

So we can continue recycling managers every few months and hope we 'strike gold' but it's far more likely that we won't do anything until the squad is actually improved.

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Billericaydickie said:

Every manager since Lee Bowyer has been shite.

I say get rid of Appleton and start again.

One day we will get lucky and end up with another Curbs or Lennie. Not every manager is shite. By the law of averages employ enough managers and eventually we will strike gold. 

There's a common factor at play here. The squad of players are shite.

Pep or Klopp would struggle to get this lot anywhere near the play offs. We haven't had a decent full back for what seems like years, our centre backs are poor and there's no creativity in midfield.

So we can continue recycling managers every few months and hope we 'strike gold' but it's far more likely that we won't do anything until the squad is actually improved.

Appleton looks bored and clueless.

Does that help ?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not for a single second sat here thinking Appleton is the answer. I just feel there's far bigger issues than the manager, namely that our squad isn't good enough to be a promotion contender, and changing the manager isn't going to really solve that.

If the next 2 windows follow the current path, then getting rid of the technical director should be top of the list in 12 months time 

seth plum

I like Karoy, but starting him instead of Watson on Friday was baffling.
At the very least a struggling and ineffective Anderson should have been subbed at half time or early in the second half.
As for us playing well, we were flying by the seat of our pants against Bristol Rovers, just about hanging in there. Appleton couldn’t see that? Is he kidding us or himself or the mysterious hierarchy?
Just like Kirk, who arrived with whatever and whatnot a reputation, Appleton is the wrong fit for Charlton. 

I always get the sense of detachment from Appleton, like he misunderstands the club and holds us at arms length, I get that from the others too like Methven and Scott. It is not cool objectivity, but more like base ignorance, I mean Elliot and Sutherland as a sop to the fans reveals how much they misunderstand us, Dean Holden was way ahead in getting or trying to get Charlton.
He says we should move on from Curbs (I don’t think Curbs and/or Brownie is a serious suggestion from the discerning fanbase) but it is Appleton who should maybe move on by mutual consent.
I will be there tomorrow, I always am, I bet Methven is there too supporting his beloved Oxford United.

swordfish

The right fit for Charlton is the same as for anywhere else. One who sends out a team that wins games. Getting the Club might appease the fan base, but if you're winning games, you don't have to, and if you're losing games, it won't save you. It's a results business. End of.

Todds_right_hook

seth plum said:

I like Karoy, but starting him instead of Watson on Friday was baffling.
At the very least a struggling and ineffective Anderson should have been subbed at half time or early in the second half.
As for us playing well, we were flying by the seat of our pants against Bristol Rovers, just about hanging in there. Appleton couldn’t see that? Is he kidding us or himself or the mysterious hierarchy?
Just like Kirk, who arrived with whatever and whatnot a reputation, Appleton is the wrong fit for Charlton. 

I always get the sense of detachment from Appleton, like he misunderstands the club and holds us at arms length, I get that from the others too like Methven and Scott. It is not cool objectivity, but more like base ignorance, I mean Elliot and Sutherland as a sop to the fans reveals how much they misunderstand us, Dean Holden was way ahead in getting or trying to get Charlton.
He says we should move on from Curbs (I don’t think Curbs and/or Brownie is a serious suggestion from the discerning fanbase) but it is Appleton who should maybe move on by mutual consent.
I will be there tomorrow, I always am, I bet Methven is there too supporting his beloved Oxford United.

The Anderson and Watson scenario stinks of bad management. 

Anderson apparently had a very good pre season (I didn't see any matches) but has struggled big time in competitive matches. On Friday he gave the ball away or was easily out strengthened the majority of the time and only retained the ball with simple backwards passes. He won a few tackles but needs a loan away from the firing line. Watson is 3 or 4 years older and has looked good

i appreciate that Appleton has had a career as a pro and a long managerial career but what can he see that 99% of the fan base can't 

ShootersHillGuru

I suspect that once a manager / coach gets a reputation for bringing on young players then they can’t leave it alone and sometimes prioritise that aspect of their management over the day to day practicalities of team selection. The Anderson, Watson choice at Bristol Rovers being an example. 

MarcusH26

I absolutely agree with Seth about the detachment factor with Appleton, just feels like there's no attempt from him to connect with the fans. Maybe it's something he doesn't see as part of his job and he's not bothered about it. But surely when he applied for the role he would have spoken to people and done his research and realised that the connection is important, Holden managed to understand the club as an outsider so it's not as if it's impossible for someone that has no prior links to build that rapport. 

rikofold

FishCostaFortune said:

The way I see it is that Appleton is an average league one manager with an average league one squad.

This is how it has been on the whole for ages now. Which is why we will have some periods where we will win games and some periods where we will lose games - and why we inevitably end up in mid table.

I think as with every average manager if you give them the correct squad, the likelihood is that they will then win more than they lose. Appleton had a period where we had pretty much the whole squad available, and we strung together some good results and he was praised for his use of subs etc.

We start to lose some players and then lack the depth, and inevitably Appleton is not an exceptional enough manager to get the results we require.

Of course it is the managers responsibility to be able to react to get teams playing through injury issues, but it shows how important some key players are to the performance of the squad especially when your recruitment has been poor for some time.

Which of course I think we can all agree ours has been in recent seasons, and not necessarily for lack of resources spent, but for a complete lack of plan and being spent incorrectly.

I am sure if you gave Appleton an above average squad he would get above average results, or if we have an above average manager he would do better with the current squad we have. 

Or give a better than average manager time to build the squad to match their ability. They'll do better with a mediocre squad than a mediocre manager anyway. 

valleynick66

ShootersHillGuru said:

I suspect that once a manager / coach gets a reputation for bringing on young players then they can’t leave it alone and sometimes prioritise that aspect of their management over the day to day practicalities of team selection. The Anderson, Watson choice at Bristol Rovers being an example. 

Does any lower league manager not have a claim on ‘bringing on’ young players? Aren’t they all reliant to some degree on using home grown talent?

Fumbluff

valleynick66 said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

I suspect that once a manager / coach gets a reputation for bringing on young players then they can’t leave it alone and sometimes prioritise that aspect of their management over the day to day practicalities of team selection. The Anderson, Watson choice at Bristol Rovers being an example. 

Does any lower league manager not have a claim on ‘bringing on’ young players? Aren’t they all reliant to some degree on using home grown talent?

This. 

It’s akin to boasting that you’ve never been trusted with a transfer budget of any significance…..

ShootersHillGuru

valleynick66 said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

I suspect that once a manager / coach gets a reputation for bringing on young players then they can’t leave it alone and sometimes prioritise that aspect of their management over the day to day practicalities of team selection. The Anderson, Watson choice at Bristol Rovers being an example. 

Does any lower league manager not have a claim on ‘bringing on’ young players? Aren’t they all reliant to some degree on using home grown talent?

I agree but Appleton does have that reputation. Quite why he felt Anderson was a better option on Friday than Watson is baffling. I’ve no idea where we go from here really. Can’t see that MA is a long term answer but we must at some point stop changing managers twice a season. Once MA does inevitably leave the next appointment is possibly the most important one we’ve ever made. Club is still in decline with no tangible evidence that’s slowing let alone reversing. Quite where Charlton find a way to survive as a long term third / fourth tier club with 6,000 fans is frightening. I don’t think oblivion is too dramatic a prospect.

Scoham

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Billericaydickie said:

Every manager since Lee Bowyer has been shite.

I say get rid of Appleton and start again.

One day we will get lucky and end up with another Curbs or Lennie. Not every manager is shite. By the law of averages employ enough managers and eventually we will strike gold. 

There's a common factor at play here. The squad of players are shite.

Pep or Klopp would struggle to get this lot anywhere near the play offs. We haven't had a decent full back for what seems like years, our centre backs are poor and there's no creativity in midfield.

So we can continue recycling managers every few months and hope we 'strike gold' but it's far more likely that we won't do anything until the squad is actually improved.

This is where I am - yes Appleton isn’t doing well and stuck with some strange decisions, but there’s not as big a gap between managers as is usually made out.

Appleton took Lincoln into the playoffs, no coincidence he did that when one of his loanees later moved for nearly £50m.

Powell couldn’t get anything out of Parkinson’s poor squad and many would have happily seen him sacked before his team won the title the following season.

Bowyer wouldn’t have taken us up had we missed out on Taylor, Cullen and Bielik had their alternatives not offered the same quality.

Adkins took a very strong Southampton squad up but hasn’t impressed since.

Slade finished 3rd in L1 in 13/14 with Orient when he got goals from Lisbie and Mooney.

We could sack him and soon might feel we have to if there isn’t an improvement, but the new manager will have the same problems until we sign better players. We’ll still lack a physical striker, have little serious competition for any of our back four, need to fit CBT and May into the team despite different formations suiting them, rely too much on academy players etc.

We’re more likely to progress with good player recruitment and an average manager than find a genius manager who can squeeze the most out of an ordinary squad. The poor squad and player recruitment is the bigger issue, though Appleton does need to turn things around very soon.

FishCostaFortune

Scoham said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Billericaydickie said:

Every manager since Lee Bowyer has been shite.

I say get rid of Appleton and start again.

One day we will get lucky and end up with another Curbs or Lennie. Not every manager is shite. By the law of averages employ enough managers and eventually we will strike gold. 

There's a common factor at play here. The squad of players are shite.

Pep or Klopp would struggle to get this lot anywhere near the play offs. We haven't had a decent full back for what seems like years, our centre backs are poor and there's no creativity in midfield.

So we can continue recycling managers every few months and hope we 'strike gold' but it's far more likely that we won't do anything until the squad is actually improved.

This is where I am - yes Appleton isn’t doing well and stuck with some strange decisions, but there’s not as big a gap between managers as is usually made out.

Appleton took Lincoln into the playoffs, no coincidence he did that when one of his loanees later moved for nearly £50m.

Powell couldn’t get anything out of Parkinson’s poor squad and many would have happily seen him sacked before his team won the title the following season.

Bowyer wouldn’t have taken us up had we missed out on Taylor, Cullen and Bielik had their alternatives not offered the same quality.

Adkins took a very strong Southampton squad up but hasn’t impressed since.

Slade finished 3rd in L1 in 13/14 with Orient when he got goals from Lisbie and Mooney.

We could sack him and soon might feel we have to if there isn’t an improvement, but the new manager will have the same problems until we sign better players. We’ll still lack a physical striker, have little serious competition for any of our back four, need to fit CBT and May into the team despite different formations suiting them, rely too much on academy players etc.

We’re more likely to progress with good player recruitment and an average manager than find a genius manager who can squeeze the most out of an ordinary squad. The poor squad and player recruitment is the bigger issue, though Appleton does need to turn things around very soon.

Agree totally with this. It’s not a defence of Appleton at all, especially as some of his decisions such as to play Anderson instead of Watson and Campbell as the 10 and May on the wing instead of the other way around do seem strange to me. 

However at the moment he is stuck with an unbalanced squad. And we are always going to pick apart every decision when we lose as being a poor unjustified one, just when we claim he makes ‘great subs’ because he is able to bring on Aneke when we win. 

We can’t play 2 up top because then we couldn’t fit CBT into the team, and don’t have the quality in depth up front, or across defence. We could play a 4-4-2, but that’s just not going to happen for multiple good reasons.

We can’t really play a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 because it does not get the best out of May, and we lack the depth in the wings and in the ‘number 10’ role. Though I think May plays the 10 role quite well. 

Our recruitment has been all over the place in recent years and it really shows as ever. However it also shows what an average manager can do when the squad is a little more balanced (I.e when Aneke and Leaburn are fit) and I do believe an extra 3-5 quality players who can fit a specific system or two will change our fortunes. 

blackpool72

People are saying that certain managers would not come to Charlton. 
They will if we pay them the going rate. 
We need to select as good a manager as we can, give him a three year contract and back him as best we can in the transfer windows. 

Unfortunately Appleton is not that man and the sooner we make the change the sooner we can start the rebuild that is desperately needed. 

Sillybilly

We really are between a rock and a hard place. I agree with the view that we need to stop chopping and changing managers every five minutes.  But clearly Appleton shouldn’t have been given the gig in the first place so I can countenance another throw of the dice. But who?  Who is out there that would countenance joining us in this state?  For the first time I find myself in disagreement with the wonderful @Fanny Fanackapan on the issue of N Jones who strikes me as a painfully annoying jumped up narcissist (just my personal option, never met the bloke, he could be a gem for all I know) who made an absolute arse of himself at Stoke and Southampton (not just my opinion, absolute fact as Rafa would say).  Mowbray?  Decent shout but he wouldn’t come here surely. And so it goes on. I’ve posted elsewhere my thoughts on this largely overrated squad. As to the ownership, well I just haven’t a clue. I don’t understand what a group of faceless billionaires are in this for and the things I can imagine I don’t care for.  The public facing elements make my skin crawl. I wouldn’t trust Methven any further than I could throw the west stand and Scott so far strikes me as a talking suit whose recruitment of players and managers has been pretty lamentable. Watching, albeit by stream, has become a pretty thankless experience. My heart goes out to those still sticking at it and attending. If my circumstances hadn’t changed I think I’d have given up through choice by now. 

Let’s hope for a change of fortunes and direction in 2024. Happy New Year All. 

Airman Brown

swordfish said:

The right fit for Charlton is the same as for anywhere else. One who sends out a team that wins games. Getting the Club might appease the fan base, but if you're winning games, you don't have to, and if you're losing games, it won't save you. It's a results business. End of.

It’s obviously true that fans respond to wins, but I don’t think you can just dismiss everything else as a consideration. Lots of things contribute to a positive attitude from the players and around the club; factors outside the dressing room also affect individual players. Jackson would have got more patience than any of Adkins, Garner, Holden or Appleton.

The point about the 1990s is that whether or not the team was being successful (and at times it was poor), fans could see progress, knew the people at the top and responded with trust. This meant they were more tolerant of setbacks and gave the manager and players more time to build.

Left to himself Jimenez would have sacked Powell in 2011 but the latter’s identity with Charlton and relationships with fans (including Varney) meant there was counter-pressure. It literally saved Powell. Loyalty to Steve Gritt (and the board) probably saved his partnership with Alan Curbishley, who was not popular and was the subject of a crowd song about his “lack of personality” (although the truth was a bit different, as is now apparent).

If you can’t offer any kind of relationship with the fanbase (whether because of your own character traits or deviousness/arrogance in the case of owners) you’re always going to have less room to work in. In short, you have to prove yourself more quickly.

MrOneLung

MarcusH26 said:

I absolutely agree with Seth about the detachment factor with Appleton, just feels like there's no attempt from him to connect with the fans. Maybe it's something he doesn't see as part of his job and he's not bothered about it. But surely when he applied for the role he would have spoken to people and done his research and realised that the connection is important, Holden managed to understand the club as an outsider so it's not as if it's impossible for someone that has no prior links to build that rapport. 

Well Holden tried to be everyone’s best mate and fat lot of good that did him. 

ValleyBen

Having a manager with a stronger connection to the club is obviously nicer but I just want out of this league. 

That being said in my lifetime, only had three successful managers, all of which were ex Charlton players so does make you wonder. 

ElfsborgAddick

MrOneLung said:

MarcusH26 said:

I absolutely agree with Seth about the detachment factor with Appleton, just feels like there's no attempt from him to connect with the fans. Maybe it's something he doesn't see as part of his job and he's not bothered about it. But surely when he applied for the role he would have spoken to people and done his research and realised that the connection is important, Holden managed to understand the club as an outsider so it's not as if it's impossible for someone that has no prior links to build that rapport. 

Well Holden tried to be everyone’s best mate and fat lot of good that did him. 

That was kicked in by Methven, that was his tactic at Sunderland to be mates with the fans.
Charlie has not been beering it up since the Newport debacle I take it.

SID

Successive managers have failed under consistently poor owners so it’s difficult I think to gauge a managers ability under those circumstances. But if we want a Charlton connection with our next manager surely it just means we’re going to be fishing in a smaller pool for him.

J BLOCK

MarcusH26 said:

I absolutely agree with Seth about the detachment factor with Appleton, just feels like there's no attempt from him to connect with the fans. Maybe it's something he doesn't see as part of his job and he's not bothered about it. But surely when he applied for the role he would have spoken to people and done his research and realised that the connection is important, Holden managed to understand the club as an outsider so it's not as if it's impossible for someone that has no prior links to build that rapport. 

Blackpool fans said exactly the same, doesn’t really care about building that connection

valleynick66

The board can only win over by investing in the squad from this window. 

We need the foundations for next season to start now. If that includes a new manager so be it.