The irony about the Anderson comment is we already have a player on loan from the Premier league that's better than him, we just have a manager that's a bit thick.
You have a like and LOL from me here Talal..cant do both of course...
I know that with all the owners we have had lately, I cannot trust any new owners until I see the evidence, not just talk. I cannot help being suspicious but am I imagining it, that we seem to have contributors on this thread that I cannot remember seeing before and they are all very positive to the new owners. I will not say names because it could be just my memory, but can the mods assure me that we have not got new contributors on this thread. Thank you
I don't think that dismissing it completely out of hand as nonsense or bullshit is completely fair, as a lot of the principles and underlying logic is legitimately sound - yes there is a lot of damage that needs to be fixed, yes it will take time and yes employing the right people to do it is the only way forward.
On the other hand, we have only their word so far that we have in fact got the right people who will be able to fix it. The actual evidence SO FAR is against them. Of all the signings made recently only May is the "elite" level, maybe if you are generous Jones could be. Two of the others who predate this ownership are at high risk of being sold/leaving either this month or at the seasons end.
They say a lot of reasonable things, but I have not yet seen them actually put action to those words yet.
And what we have been told about May is that Holden had to fight for him. yes, they can claim credit for getting him but can we have faith in the systems? Personally, I expect Scott is working his socks off, what I am yet to see is if he is any good. I'm not saying he won't prove to be, but I haven't seen the evidence yet, actually I have seen counter evidence, and Rodwell telling me how hard he works means nothing.
In terms of the 8 youth players in the squad. It makes some sense but they have to be good enough. Absolutely, the youth players in our squad are of a high level. Only two should be starting until they are fully established, but then you can have others covering injuries and coming on for half an hour when we are two or three up. The other promising ones should go on loan. I would probably say for that reason, we should have 5 squad youth players coming through and 5 out on loan to League clubs.
I know that with all the owners we have had lately, I cannot trust any new owners until I see the evidence, not just talk. I cannot help being suspicious but am I imagining it, that we seem to have contributors on this thread that I cannot remember seeing before and they are all very positive to the new owners. I will not say names because it could be just my memory, but can the mods assure me that we have not got new contributors on this thread. Thank you
I need to apologise to you. You’re up there as one of the main contributors & I glibly said I’d never heard of you. And so, as someone quite rightly predicted, I have purposefully sought out your contributions since. You talk sense & I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say. This last post especially. Sorry.
Sandgaard would have been a success if he understood football. Duchatelet even more so. It is probably the best set up providing the owner knows football. Sadly these people have been a success outside of football. If I was a shareholder/joint owner of Charlton I would be interested in the presentation in terms of what we need but even more interested in the how we achieve it. Obviously, we didn't get much of the latter but hopefully there is a clear plan.
There's such an irony in everything they've said and it's full of contradictions.
Their main man, the manager himself, one of the best coaches allegedly, has said we are stuck in the past and need to accept where we are.
Yet throughout that presentation there were numerous times where they would use a premier league giant as a marker.
- Even Man United had to sell Ronaldo (undoubtedly comparing that situation to ours losing the likes of CBT, completely the same level of course)
- Liverpool spend 2 or 3 years thinking about who they'll sign (bullshit btw)
- Even Pep would struggle with this team (why are we using the greatest manager of all time as a benchmark?)
And my favourite of all, when a proper question came in asking why the owners aren't there, Elliott decided again to compare us to a premier league side and said along the lines of 'when you look at clubs like ManU, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea they have investors/owners and people who run the club'
Fascinating that a bunch of people who can't help but tell fans to lower their expectations on this club then use a Premier league club as a measuring stick at any give opportunity.
How about making us as good as the likes of Pompey or Bolton, that would be a start 😂 all this stuff about Brighton is utter nonsense. Lightyears away.
My word how do these blokes get into these positions of power. They'd get torn to shreds by anyone who can speak with a bit of conviction and can ask challenging questions.
I know that with all the owners we have had lately, I cannot trust any new owners until I see the evidence, not just talk. I cannot help being suspicious but am I imagining it, that we seem to have contributors on this thread that I cannot remember seeing before and they are all very positive to the new owners. I will not say names because it could be just my memory, but can the mods assure me that we have not got new contributors on this thread. Thank you
I need to apologise to you. You’re up there as one of the main contributors & I glibly said I’d never heard of you. And so, as someone quite rightly predicted, I have purposefully sought out your contributions since. You talk sense & I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say. This last post especially. Sorry.
The trouble with past owners, like me you tend to be suspicious over many contributors. I have been on CL for 10 years and have supported Charlton for nearly 80 years, so I promise you, I speak honestly, even if some do not agree with me. There was no need to apologise, but thank you
who is the new guy from Brighton , isn’t he like from their youth set up but we talk as if we’ve nabbed their star striker rather than the tea lady . obviously I’m being prickish (my usual self) but I’m sick of everyone who turns up here being wanked off before they’ve earned it
Good to see the general disdain for all things Bromley from Rodwell, he was happy to throw them under the bus because he knows it’s a palace area with no identity .
Personally I thought last night was as good as could be expected. Thought they talked a decent game. Obviously the proof will be in the pudding, but that obviously couldn't come last night. Neither will it realistically come in this transfer window.
I was interested in the 8+8+8 scenario for the squad. Obviously we would all like it to be something more like 15+4+5. However, being realistic budgetary constraints (FPP etc as well as realism) means it can't be. IF they were fit this would work. Fitness absolutely crucial (both Powell's and Bowyer's teams were kept fit somehow!)
They obviously had to back Appleton and Scott here. The jury is very much out on both of them, but they could hardly say that there. With a coach it goes without saying these days tbh.
Interested in that they had had discussions re the Valley and Sparrows Lane. How much blarney impossible to judge
Was also interested that they had discussions with Curbs and Brownie.
Sad to hear EFL/Sky not allowing ANY live streams next year.
Good to see the general disdain for all things Bromley from Rodwell, he was happy to throw them under the bus because he knows it’s a palace area with no identity .
I was in Bromley a few weeks back (for the first time in years) and was shocked to see a Palace merchandise shop in the Glades!
I note that Rodwell said that the ownership group had consistently backed them financially and given them the tools to do the job. E.G. They were happy to fund the requirements (as laid down by Rodwell and co) for this January window.
No pressure then lads if it all goes pear shaped, we know where to point the finger.
I’m going to come out in support of @DubaiCAFC post here. Perhaps “suck it up” was the wrong and perhaps an inflammatory phrase to use but realistically we are between a rock and a hard place as supporters. We do have new owners and despite people’s impatience they have a mountain to climb in turning around years of dreadful ownership and hollowing out of the club. Anyone that thinks this is a two minute surgical procedure hasn’t been paying attention. It would appear that the owners and SMT are at least on the same page and realise that recruitment needs to be a lot better and will cost money. As supporters and this where I agree with Dubai is what do we do ? Start protesting and call for owners or manager to depart or do we see where this goes over the next couple of seasons. I think given the appalling state of the club they have to be given time. If it’s obvious that both recruitment and off the field matters are not improving then there’s time enough for getting the pigs back out but I’m assuming the money men will have something to say as well. I’m not happy with how things are but I’m a realist. I don’t want Methven, Scott, Rodwell, or Appleton gone. I want to see them do better. If that doesn’t happen then all bets are off.
So Mr ‘believe you me’ Rodwell is not straight about the Bromley meeting, and not credible about what he knew when about Senda.
I didn't choose to hear his words in that way to be fair to him. He was (I thought) effectively saying that some (fans) would feel offers have to be made and either accepted or rejected.
It is dangerous to read too much into every utterance.
He really said very little and nothing new is the overall conclusion for me. There may be is money to spend but we won't see definitive evidence of that for a few weeks yet is the problem.
Something just doesn't sit right for me with Rodwell , get the feeling he's a bit of a slippery character.
Actually thought Gavin Carter came across the best of the 3 , at least he had a bit more of a fans perspective.
As with anything like this , it's all well and good having shiny PowerPoints for people but the proof will be if they put their words into actions.
The Dr Will Abbott hiring does sound like a real statement of intent to go and get someone from one of the more highly regarded PL setups does seem like a coup.
I just wonder if he's so highly rated why would he leave a premier club to come to this shit show ?
- Even Pep would struggle with this team (why are we using the greatest manager of all time as a benchmark?)
I thought Jim made a fair point here. I mean how good is Pep or any other "Top manager" without top players? I probably am in the minority but I really think the role of a manager is overrated.
I honestly doubted the vision behind it all but thought they addressed all the questions well, so much talk of scripted questions but they clearly answered some difficult ones? They conceded that it's not gone amazingly well so far but are committed to improvement? Much better than the last 4 boards have presented imo
You're easily pleased.
Rather that than approach everything everyone says with cynicism. What out of interest did you think it was missing and wasn't addressed amongst general fan concerns?
Substance, mostly. That was the kind of presentation that probably would work quite well if you pitched it at some American speculators looking to invest in that limey soccerball game but to a bunch of fans who've been sold a whole series of pigs in pokes recently it was fluff and soft-soap stuff at best.
Sign good players on a permanent basis, give them to a manager/coach with actual vision and charisma and then and only then will I be convinced that they are anything other than deluded at best, chancers at worst.
Again, did you want them to publically chastise staff members past and present and then publically reveal our list of transfer targets? Not even mouthy MacAntony is that naive. I feel like a lot of the frustration as more to do with Appleton than anything and they explained their rationale behind sticking with him, I'm not a huge fan of what we've seen from Mickey Apples but thought their reasoning was fair enough in that they want to see what he can do with a full squad available and try to bed in some consistency. There were people in the comments calling for us to go and appoint Steve Cooper and you have to wonder what fantasy land people are living in if you think we're an attractive option to him
Scott has been a success in the past two windows, do you think?
Probably not, but then again if you'd listen to the Q&A yourself as opposed to forming opinions based on text scraps in this thread then you might have heard their glowing reviews of Scott's work off the pitch, from the people that work with him day in day out, I thought his sole job was transfer responsibility but Rodwell in particular alluded to it being a far wider encompassing role than that and the 3 of them sung their praises for Scott, so willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and some more time given he came with a good rep from Forest and colleagues who work closely with him clearly like what he's doing as a wider piece. Do I think our transfers in the summer were good? Alfie and Lloyd aside, not really but then they also had rationale for that in that their takeover wasn't fully ratified by the EFL until quite late in the window when a lot of clubs were a lot further along with their business than us so held their hands up that it was a bit of a scramble and they got some things wrong
For clarity, I am assuming you mean rep = reputation and not rep as representative.
Nottm Forest Head of Scouting
21/22 (Jan 11, 2022) /22/23 (Oct 11, 2022)
If the former rep (reputation). Then being sacked from his position after a short time would suggest not so good. At that time Forest kept Cooper (Manager) and ditched the Director Scott.
Jury is out for me on Scott at CAFC presently, except he talks a good game but I haven't as yet witnessed anything positive in regards to player recruitment.
I hope recruitment improves but there is more than doubt based on his involvement previously.
Something just doesn't sit right for me with Rodwell , get the feeling he's a bit of a slippery character.
Actually thought Gavin Carter came across the best of the 3 , at least he had a bit more of a fans perspective.
As with anything like this , it's all well and good having shiny PowerPoints for people but the proof will be if they put their words into actions.
The Dr Will Abbott hiring does sound like a real statement of intent to go and get someone from one of the more highly regarded PL setups does seem like a coup.
I just wonder if he's so highly rated why would he leave a premier club to come to this shit show ?
The challenge and pay of course I would guess, Bob
Well, seems I'm in the minority tonight but my back's broad....
I've read through the whole thread now & am somewhat disappointed that minor issues /comments have been blown out of proportion IMO. But hey, everyone's welcome to air their views.
Two " important " characters were missing this evening- namely Andy Scott & Charlie Methven.
Whilst I haven't met either ot listened in to any interviews they may have given recently, I must admit that I'm less positive about them & the part they're currenly playing in all this from what others have posted . AS's role is of vital importance, of course, but I'm not totally convinced about his credentials and that he's the man for the job... and CM seems to have hibernated now that the sharp end of the season is upon us. Maybe he's been gagged temporarily until the January window slams shut ?
I stick by my overall view of tonight's meeting though...maybe because I can't let myself continue to feel so negative & depressed, completely losing my enthusiasm for matches. There has to be an upturn soon.The thoughts of our beloved club dying is too devastating to contemplate. I WANT these guys to be the ones to take us forward before it's too late and the spectre of L2 looms ever closer.
Maybe MA IS the next Curbs. It would appear that he has the backing for now....but I remain unconvinced. Maybe Chuks will suddenly regain his fitness and go on to be our top scorer come May! Our 2023-4 POTY ! Maybe Fanny will throw in the towel & buy a Dorking season ticket !
Stranger things have happened....
For now, I'm hanging in there, still trying hard to keep the faith.
A few thoughts having reflected overnight. My WhatsApp group were having fun with bullshit bingo as we were watching but having digested and slept on it my thoughts are:
1. It was a good and tricky thing for the SMT to do. They didn’t have to so fair play for at least giving it a go.
2. Amid the corporate waffle did I detect a plan? Sort of and there are signs eg the appointment of the chap from Brighton that things are moving. I’m not sure what they could have said that they didn’t on most subjects. I was surprised how directly they handled issue such as contracts for CBT and George. However…..
3. Do I trust this gang any more after listening than before? Nope. They have previous (Methven and Rodwell) which leads me to think they are here until it turns sour. Being articulate (Rodwell) or using 100 words when ten will do (Elliott) can’t mask the fact that they will be judged on progress. I still have no clue why a bunch of American bazilluonaires want to buy a league 1 club on its uppers when they could buy Everton or Ipswich etc. I remain suspicious.
3. Fair enough to go all tackle out and back your choice of manager. However when that choice is a diddy appointed cos he’s a mate of Charlie’s is careless at best. As for the absent Scott, I remain profoundly concerned. Our transfers since he came along have lacked any logic. We have been warned that it’s a difficult window. If it’s “sellers market” then get the laggards in the current squad sold asap please.
4. I actually get the 8-8-8 plan. As Blackadder would say though, the only thing wrong with the plan is that it’s bollox. We are about to sell two of the three “elite” players we have and I’d argue that only two or three of the current squad are in the second category. As for the kids, while I remain a staunch fan of our academy, the reality is that the output over the last few years isn’t great. The classes of 21,22 and 23 (Leaburn aside) are all either struggling to make an impact in the current squad or plying their trade in L2, non league or the Scottish championship. So the starting position to achieve 8-8-8 is about 1-3-1 as far as I can judge. Good luck with that. The yanks will see through it very quickly.
5. A good showing by our reps of whom I am normally quite critical. Good questions and stuck to their guns. Charlotte too played a blinder and is going up in my estimations.
6. Streaming next year. Bums. That’s me out then!! Hoping for a solution.
Something just doesn't sit right for me with Rodwell , get the feeling he's a bit of a slippery character.
Actually thought Gavin Carter came across the best of the 3 , at least he had a bit more of a fans perspective.
As with anything like this , it's all well and good having shiny PowerPoints for people but the proof will be if they put their words into actions.
The Dr Will Abbott hiring does sound like a real statement of intent to go and get someone from one of the more highly regarded PL setups does seem like a coup.
I just wonder if he's so highly rated why would he leave a premier club to come to this shit show ?
I think it's probably someone that has worked their way up at a PL side and now wants to be the main man at a club themselves. A bit like appointing an assistant manager as manager.
The 8 + 8 + 8 strategy is actually interesting and not too dissimilar from some of the corporate strategies I have worked within over the years when building departments or larger teams. It offers the ability to build a team (squad) that has responsibility and pay bandings but not too rigid to stop higher quality recruits or staff being retained. They will set an overall squad wage budget for arguments sake lets say 100k per week (example only) the elite 8 will have a budget of c.7k per individual so 56k, the solid 8 a budget of 4k per individual so 32k and the academy 8 a budget of 1.5k per individual so 12k. There will be sliding scales within each of those pay bands but a non-rigid upper and lower limit that must be compensated for elsewhere if broken.
- Even Pep would struggle with this team (why are we using the greatest manager of all time as a benchmark?)
I thought Jim made a fair point here. I mean how good is Pep or any other "Top manager" without top players? I probably am in the minority but I really think the role of a manager is overrated.
It isn't that it isn't a true point, that a good manager and good players go hand in hand to an extent. It is more so, why use the very best as a comparison yet when fans question why we aren't at a level, all of a sudden it's 'Rome wasn't built in a day' (which he also said)
My issue is with these lot, is clearly they aren't going to invest in a top manager as so far they've hired two managers that would be lucky to manage Salford and clearly they aren't willing to splash wonga on players, that's why we are at risk of losing two of our best and that's why tjeu have downplayed the transfer window.
So what is the plan?
I genuinely would be happy for us to be as good as the likes of Barnsley, Peterborough, Oxford etc at present but we can't even manage that.
All this talk of a big turnaround needed, Pompey are top with a new manager, Oxford were near relegation last season, Stevenage were a league 2 side last season.
I am choosing not to include Bolton, Blackpool, Derby, Peterborough as I feel teams with recent relegation and aren't in club difficulties will always be a top end competitor in this league. Bolton are the exception to the 'project' clubs like to harp on about but I imagine this season will be their last roll and Derby are similar to Sunderland where they're a massive club and it's inevitable they'll leave the league at some point.
Bit of a rant as per but I don't see a game plan at all and the cynic in me says that meeting was set up to calm people down. Which has worked for now on the face of things, but let's see how patient people are if we have hit the end of February and the chance to sign players is gone and they've back a manager that has question marks on him than the Riddler.
If it wasn't for such dross beneath us I think we would be a good bet for relegation. The stage is set for it
The SMT have done two things: created a semblance of a plan; and shared it, openly, and with dialogue with fans on an open, free-to-air, platform, with a huge potential reach of the fanbase at home and abroad.
Whatever is said about the efficacy of the plan, the thinking behind it, how it's being meted out, whether the personnel are experienced enough to carry it off, whether it will succeed: all these things may be up for debate.
But for Charlton to tick the first two things puts them miles ahead of recent ownership groups. There's light-years of space between the competence shown by doing these two things, than the incoherence of Sandgaard, Southall, Duchatelet and others by not doing it.
We can't complain that the club doesn't have a plan; or that the clubs isn't prepared to share its plan. In this way, they're demonstrating - "walking the walk" - that they're a competent group to take Charlton onto the next stage.
So, while there are many, many questions still remaining (including the most important two, which are "will they be successful?" and "what does success look like?") they've taken a small but important step in the right direction.
There’s a fairly simple way to test the 8-8-8 theory in the real world. Look at the Ipswich squad that got promoted, and Bolton’s this season. Mind you, the test would be much more valid if done with the active participation of a knowledgeable Ipswich and Bolton fan.
Upon further reflection, we at least got some insights that we did not have pre-presentation/engagement, so grateful for that. 888 looks a bit of a gamble to me, but might work if the 8 Elite stay mostly injury free. A lot of weight on the new Dr’s shoulders…
Personally, I was transfixed with Jim’s Barnet and found myself asking … does he Gel or use hairspray 🤔
As a thinning man whose facial hair makes him look like catweezle if left unattended for more than a week I have to say it's inarguable that Rodwell has a resplendent barnet and beard game going on.
Premier or even Champions League level grooming going on.
Make of that what you will but I for one think it's a very good omen for our rise back to the promised land and am somewhat surprised more have not taken a similar level of comfort and inspiration from it on this thread hitherto.
Comments
In terms of the 8 youth players in the squad. It makes some sense but they have to be good enough. Absolutely, the youth players in our squad are of a high level. Only two should be starting until they are fully established, but then you can have others covering injuries and coming on for half an hour when we are two or three up. The other promising ones should go on loan. I would probably say for that reason, we should have 5 squad youth players coming through and 5 out on loan to League clubs.
You’re up there as one of the main contributors & I glibly said I’d never heard of you.
And so, as someone quite rightly predicted, I have purposefully sought out your contributions since.
You talk sense & I find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say.
This last post especially.
Sorry.
Their main man, the manager himself, one of the best coaches allegedly, has said we are stuck in the past and need to accept where we are.
Yet throughout that presentation there were numerous times where they would use a premier league giant as a marker.
- Even Man United had to sell Ronaldo (undoubtedly comparing that situation to ours losing the likes of CBT, completely the same level of course)
- Liverpool spend 2 or 3 years thinking about who they'll sign (bullshit btw)
- Even Pep would struggle with this team (why are we using the greatest manager of all time as a benchmark?)
And my favourite of all, when a proper question came in asking why the owners aren't there, Elliott decided again to compare us to a premier league side and said along the lines of 'when you look at clubs like ManU, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea they have investors/owners and people who run the club'
Fascinating that a bunch of people who can't help but tell fans to lower their expectations on this club then use a Premier league club as a measuring stick at any give opportunity.
How about making us as good as the likes of Pompey or Bolton, that would be a start 😂 all this stuff about Brighton is utter nonsense. Lightyears away.
My word how do these blokes get into these positions of power. They'd get torn to shreds by anyone who can speak with a bit of conviction and can ask challenging questions.
obviously I’m being prickish (my usual self) but I’m sick of everyone who turns up here being wanked off before they’ve earned it
I was interested in the 8+8+8 scenario for the squad. Obviously we would all like it to be something more like 15+4+5. However, being realistic budgetary constraints (FPP etc as well as realism) means it can't be. IF they were fit this would work. Fitness absolutely crucial (both Powell's and Bowyer's teams were kept fit somehow!)
They obviously had to back Appleton and Scott here. The jury is very much out on both of them, but they could hardly say that there. With a coach it goes without saying these days tbh.
Interested in that they had had discussions re the Valley and Sparrows Lane. How much blarney impossible to judge
Was also interested that they had discussions with Curbs and Brownie.
Sad to hear EFL/Sky not allowing ANY live streams next year.
No pressure then lads if it all goes pear shaped, we know where to point the finger.
If the former rep (reputation). Then being sacked from his position after a short time would suggest not so good. At that time Forest kept Cooper (Manager) and ditched the Director Scott.
Jury is out for me on Scott at CAFC presently, except he talks a good game but I haven't as yet witnessed anything positive in regards to player recruitment.
I hope recruitment improves but there is more than doubt based on his involvement previously.
1. It was a good and tricky thing for the SMT to do. They didn’t have to so fair play for at least giving it a go.
3. Do I trust this gang any more after listening than before? Nope. They have previous (Methven and Rodwell) which leads me to think they are here until it turns sour. Being articulate (Rodwell) or using 100 words when ten will do (Elliott) can’t mask the fact that they will be judged on progress. I still have no clue why a bunch of American bazilluonaires want to buy a league 1 club on its uppers when they could buy Everton or Ipswich etc. I remain suspicious.
I think it's probably someone that has worked their way up at a PL side and now wants to be the main man at a club themselves. A bit like appointing an assistant manager as manager.
My issue is with these lot, is clearly they aren't going to invest in a top manager as so far they've hired two managers that would be lucky to manage Salford and clearly they aren't willing to splash wonga on players, that's why we are at risk of losing two of our best and that's why tjeu have downplayed the transfer window.
So what is the plan?
I genuinely would be happy for us to be as good as the likes of Barnsley, Peterborough, Oxford etc at present but we can't even manage that.
All this talk of a big turnaround needed, Pompey are top with a new manager, Oxford were near relegation last season, Stevenage were a league 2 side last season.
I am choosing not to include Bolton, Blackpool, Derby, Peterborough as I feel teams with recent relegation and aren't in club difficulties will always be a top end competitor in this league. Bolton are the exception to the 'project' clubs like to harp on about but I imagine this season will be their last roll and Derby are similar to Sunderland where they're a massive club and it's inevitable they'll leave the league at some point.
Bit of a rant as per but I don't see a game plan at all and the cynic in me says that meeting was set up to calm people down. Which has worked for now on the face of things, but let's see how patient people are if we have hit the end of February and the chance to sign players is gone and they've back a manager that has question marks on him than the Riddler.
If it wasn't for such dross beneath us I think we would be a good bet for relegation. The stage is set for it
Whatever is said about the efficacy of the plan, the thinking behind it, how it's being meted out, whether the personnel are experienced enough to carry it off, whether it will succeed: all these things may be up for debate.
But for Charlton to tick the first two things puts them miles ahead of recent ownership groups. There's light-years of space between the competence shown by doing these two things, than the incoherence of Sandgaard, Southall, Duchatelet and others by not doing it.
We can't complain that the club doesn't have a plan; or that the clubs isn't prepared to share its plan. In this way, they're demonstrating - "walking the walk" - that they're a competent group to take Charlton onto the next stage.
So, while there are many, many questions still remaining (including the most important two, which are "will they be successful?" and "what does success look like?") they've taken a small but important step in the right direction.