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I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................
Comments
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I agree. Too much tinkering has probably caused us to struggle to find some balance.NabySarr said:
The no plan B is such a lazy criticism. All season Jones has regularly changed shape or changed things tactically. If anything he sometimes changes things too muchChunes said:If he doesn't have a Plan B, what did he start with yesterday?2 -
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table0 -
Was this meant to be posted in response to my post? As it makes no sense along side, and is completely irrelevant to, the post I made ?Dazzler21 said:paulsturgess said:
Compared with the circumstances bowyer managed in and the resources he had available to him in 19/20 , this season we should have been challenging for the titleDazzler21 said:
Erm are we going to ignore the massive gulf in quality of inherited squad?LittleAddick said:This season has actually made the Bowyer Championship season seem more impressive in hindsight. We spent about 200k that season, had 3 proper relegation spots as opposed to this year's 2, lost our best player for half the year, and was under an embargo for January. Yet somehow, this year despite spending 30x more we're barely any better.
That squad would destroy this one.0 -
Watching the dugout last night, he was a frenetic as ever. Absolute jack in the box compared to the measured McKenna - can't help but think that if you are reacting to absolutely everything with such emotion, you can't be thinking with clarity on the game.As much as I back the guy and think he deserves the summer to build again, I do wonder if the fanatical act wears a bit thin on the players over time too.Would like him to stay and build, but if a change were to be made then a steady capable pair of hands would be the natural next step. My preference would be a Tony Mowbray type.2
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I dont think it would be madness if the owners doubted our ability to progress next seasonStu_of_Kunming said:
Whilst it’s been hugely frustrating, I don’t think that means the season hasn’t been a success, to sack Jones at that stage would be madness.AberystwythAddick said:
If you ignore the total collapse of form to secure safety then yeah sureStu_of_Kunming said:
Because come the final day of the season, it will have been a success, imo.AberystwythAddick said:
Why?Stu_of_Kunming said:
But we won't, so he should definitely stay.AberystwythAddick said:If we go down he’ll be gone3 -
Thankfully that’s not quite how the league table works. At times, we’ve fallen below the expectations, at others times we’ve massively overachieved. Come the final day, we’ll be safe, that’s all that matters for this season.paulsturgess said:
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table
If there’s no progression next season, that would be a more reasonable time to talk about change.4 -
Dazzler21 said:paulsturgess said:
Compared with the circumstances bowyer managed in and the resources he had available to him in 19/20 , this season we should have been challenging for the titleDazzler21 said:
Erm are we going to ignore the massive gulf in quality of inherited squad?LittleAddick said:This season has actually made the Bowyer Championship season seem more impressive in hindsight. We spent about 200k that season, had 3 proper relegation spots as opposed to this year's 2, lost our best player for half the year, and was under an embargo for January. Yet somehow, this year despite spending 30x more we're barely any better.
That squad would destroy this one.
Bowyer didn't have half those players in the Championship - Bauer, Dijksteel, Aribo, Bielik had all left.5 -
I didn't say it was how the league table works.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Thankfully that’s not quite how the league table works. At times, we’ve fallen below the expectations, at others times we’ve massively overachieved. Come the final day, we’ll be safe, that’s all that matters for this season.paulsturgess said:
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table
If there’s no progression next season, that would be a more reasonable time to talk about change.
But what is shows is a manager who has for 6-7 months been performing below expectations (my personal expectations, and his "budgetary league table" expectations).
He hasn't performed above expectations consistently across a season - he performed above expectations for the first 2 months of the season (results-wise at least) and then consistently below expectations for a long sustained period.
It is therefore reasonable to consider whether he will be able to reverse this and change the direction of travel going forward / next season.
I would keep him I think, but if I was a professional running the club, I'd be reflecting on it in more detail, considering what he truly plans for next season, and what other options there might be.
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I think it would also be reasonable for those in charge to insist on those plans including some more attacking football and make it clear that will be in part what he’s judged on.paulsturgess said:Stu_of_Kunming said:
Thankfully that’s not quite how the league table works. At times, we’ve fallen below the expectations, at others times we’ve massively overachieved. Come the final day, we’ll be safe, that’s all that matters for this season.paulsturgess said:
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table
If there’s no progression next season, that would be a more reasonable time to talk about change.
I would keep him I think, but if I was a professional running the club, I'd be reflecting on it in more detail, considering what he truly plans for next season, and what other options there might be.1 -
But people can set any arbitrary start/end dates they want to prove a point like this. It's just as accurate to say that from the start of January up until the Oxford match we had 21 points from 15 matches. That's not a blip, that's top-10 form (based on results) sustained over 2.5 months. Is that not overperformance?paulsturgess said:
I didn't say it was how the league table works.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Thankfully that’s not quite how the league table works. At times, we’ve fallen below the expectations, at others times we’ve massively overachieved. Come the final day, we’ll be safe, that’s all that matters for this season.paulsturgess said:
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table
If there’s no progression next season, that would be a more reasonable time to talk about change.
But what is shows is a manager who has for 6-7 months been performing below expectations (my personal expectations, and his "budgetary league table" expectations).
He hasn't performed above expectations consistently across a season - he performed above expectations for the first 2 months of the season (results-wise at least) and then consistently below expectations for a long sustained period.
It is therefore reasonable to consider whether he will be able to reverse this and change the direction of travel going forward / next season.
I would keep him I think, but if I was a professional running the club, I'd be reflecting on it in more detail, considering what he truly plans for next season, and what other options there might be.
I'd keep Jones no matter what at this point. I don't see us getting a better manager for where we are in the Championship right now, and I definitely don't see us getting a better one if we were to end up in League One.8 -
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While I agree in theory, that seems like kind of a nebulous category to judge on. How exactly do you quantify it as "attacking" in a measurae way that also accounts for other teams performance - if we play a team who camp out in their own box, or an attacking team who dominate possession then what does attacking look like in those very specific circumstances.Stu_of_Kunming said:
I think it would also be reasonable for those in charge to insist on those plans including some more attacking football and make it clear that will be in part what he’s judged on.paulsturgess said:Stu_of_Kunming said:
Thankfully that’s not quite how the league table works. At times, we’ve fallen below the expectations, at others times we’ve massively overachieved. Come the final day, we’ll be safe, that’s all that matters for this season.paulsturgess said:
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table
If there’s no progression next season, that would be a more reasonable time to talk about change.
I would keep him I think, but if I was a professional running the club, I'd be reflecting on it in more detail, considering what he truly plans for next season, and what other options there might be.0 -
Stu_of_Kunming said:
I think it would also be reasonable for those in charge to insist on those plans including some more attacking football and make it clear that will be in part what he’s judged on.paulsturgess said:Stu_of_Kunming said:
Thankfully that’s not quite how the league table works. At times, we’ve fallen below the expectations, at others times we’ve massively overachieved. Come the final day, we’ll be safe, that’s all that matters for this season.paulsturgess said:
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table
If there’s no progression next season, that would be a more reasonable time to talk about change.
I would keep him I think, but if I was a professional running the club, I'd be reflecting on it in more detail, considering what he truly plans for next season, and what other options there might be.
Slippery slope when owners interfere with on pitch tactics. Not sure Jones would accept that, not many managers would.6 -
they can set any arbitrary period. But personally I'm looking at the season as a whole and within that the most recent, extended period of the second 2/3 of the season, neither of which I think could be reasonably considered as random patches of deliberately selective form and I would suggest are very long (in this day and age of football certainly) and fair periods to be judging a manager's performancehezzla said:
But people can set any arbitrary start/end dates they want to prove a point like this. It's just as accurate to say that from the start of January up until the Oxford match we had 21 points from 15 matches. That's not a blip, that's top-10 form (based on results) sustained over 2.5 months. Is that not overperformance?paulsturgess said:
I didn't say it was how the league table works.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Thankfully that’s not quite how the league table works. At times, we’ve fallen below the expectations, at others times we’ve massively overachieved. Come the final day, we’ll be safe, that’s all that matters for this season.paulsturgess said:
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table
If there’s no progression next season, that would be a more reasonable time to talk about change.
But what is shows is a manager who has for 6-7 months been performing below expectations (my personal expectations, and his "budgetary league table" expectations).
He hasn't performed above expectations consistently across a season - he performed above expectations for the first 2 months of the season (results-wise at least) and then consistently below expectations for a long sustained period.
It is therefore reasonable to consider whether he will be able to reverse this and change the direction of travel going forward / next season.
I would keep him I think, but if I was a professional running the club, I'd be reflecting on it in more detail, considering what he truly plans for next season, and what other options there might be.
I'd keep Jones no matter what at this point. I don't see us getting a better manager for where we are in the Championship right now, and I definitely don't see us getting a better one if we were to end up in League One.
you would keep Jones no matter what but you don't have the detailed intel from inside the club and you also don't have awareness of what other options and where they might look to as alternatives, beyond (i assume) the laymans football fans knowledge
there has clearly, in my view, been enough concern on show this season to consider all of this1 -
Totally agree.bobmunro said:Stu_of_Kunming said:
I think it would also be reasonable for those in charge to insist on those plans including some more attacking football and make it clear that will be in part what he’s judged on.paulsturgess said:Stu_of_Kunming said:
Thankfully that’s not quite how the league table works. At times, we’ve fallen below the expectations, at others times we’ve massively overachieved. Come the final day, we’ll be safe, that’s all that matters for this season.paulsturgess said:
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table
If there’s no progression next season, that would be a more reasonable time to talk about change.
I would keep him I think, but if I was a professional running the club, I'd be reflecting on it in more detail, considering what he truly plans for next season, and what other options there might be.
Slippery slope when owners interfere with on pitch tactics. Not sure Jones would accept that, not many managers would.
Just make sure he has a competitive budget in the summer and let him get on with it.
If things have not improved come Xmas then a decision might have to be made.8 -
I do think Jones needs to take a look at his coaching team, and the help he gets. After every game he'll remind us (and his players) that the players are doing their best, but ultimately that they aren't good enough and we're new to this level. If people are being thrown under the bus I think he needs to include the coaching staff in those comments, too.
For example...
Being able to press as a cohesive unit - coaches.
Turning up on match day and making sure it actually happens - NJ.
One of both of them aren't doing their job. I really think he needs to look closer to home - his best signings in the summer could be on the coaching side and an older head who'll challenge him.
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i just hope this season is over with the right outcome ASAP and then i can forget about this, wait n see what happens and try and enjoy not worrying until August!9
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I think the slope is mitigated by the fact jones has been talking about these changes himselfbobmunro said:Stu_of_Kunming said:
I think it would also be reasonable for those in charge to insist on those plans including some more attacking football and make it clear that will be in part what he’s judged on.paulsturgess said:Stu_of_Kunming said:
Thankfully that’s not quite how the league table works. At times, we’ve fallen below the expectations, at others times we’ve massively overachieved. Come the final day, we’ll be safe, that’s all that matters for this season.paulsturgess said:
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table
If there’s no progression next season, that would be a more reasonable time to talk about change.
I would keep him I think, but if I was a professional running the club, I'd be reflecting on it in more detail, considering what he truly plans for next season, and what other options there might be.
Slippery slope when owners interfere with on pitch tactics. Not sure Jones would accept that, not many managers would.0 -
It’s relevant because you mentioned resources, but you’re confusing 'budget' with 'talent.' Bowyer might have had fewer resources to spend, but the squad he actually had on the pitch, just look at those names like Aribo, Cullen, and Bielik. It was vastly superior to what we have now. My point stands, having a better squad (even on a shoestring) made his job incomparable to the current situation. This lot wouldn't get near that 18/19 side.paulsturgess said:
Was this meant to be posted in response to my post? As it makes no sense along side, and is completely irrelevant to, the post I made ?Dazzler21 said:paulsturgess said:
Compared with the circumstances bowyer managed in and the resources he had available to him in 19/20 , this season we should have been challenging for the titleDazzler21 said:
Erm are we going to ignore the massive gulf in quality of inherited squad?LittleAddick said:This season has actually made the Bowyer Championship season seem more impressive in hindsight. We spent about 200k that season, had 3 proper relegation spots as opposed to this year's 2, lost our best player for half the year, and was under an embargo for January. Yet somehow, this year despite spending 30x more we're barely any better.
That squad would destroy this one.1 -
This 100%.blackpool72 said:
Totally agree.bobmunro said:Stu_of_Kunming said:
I think it would also be reasonable for those in charge to insist on those plans including some more attacking football and make it clear that will be in part what he’s judged on.paulsturgess said:Stu_of_Kunming said:
Thankfully that’s not quite how the league table works. At times, we’ve fallen below the expectations, at others times we’ve massively overachieved. Come the final day, we’ll be safe, that’s all that matters for this season.paulsturgess said:
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table
If there’s no progression next season, that would be a more reasonable time to talk about change.
I would keep him I think, but if I was a professional running the club, I'd be reflecting on it in more detail, considering what he truly plans for next season, and what other options there might be.
Slippery slope when owners interfere with on pitch tactics. Not sure Jones would accept that, not many managers would.
Just make sure he has a competitive budget in the summer and let him get on with it.
If things have not improved come Xmas then a decision might have to be made.1 -
Whilst he has a L1 squad think the owners can’t justify sacking him, if he has a good enough squad and still struggles it becomes a no brainerblackpool72 said:
Totally agree.bobmunro said:Stu_of_Kunming said:
I think it would also be reasonable for those in charge to insist on those plans including some more attacking football and make it clear that will be in part what he’s judged on.paulsturgess said:Stu_of_Kunming said:
Thankfully that’s not quite how the league table works. At times, we’ve fallen below the expectations, at others times we’ve massively overachieved. Come the final day, we’ll be safe, that’s all that matters for this season.paulsturgess said:
Not really no. As per previous posts, since the early season / post promotion momentum, we’ve been in bottom 2 form. So arguably falling below budget league table expectation. 👍Stu_of_Kunming said:
Hasn't Jones done that all season? We've not been in a relegation spot once.paulsturgess said:Also worth noting regarding “expectations” that Lincoln have romped to the L1 title with one of the divisions lowest budgets. Teams do outperform budgets and expectations, and I was born in 1986 and for the entire first half of my lifetime that is what Charlton Athlwtic not only did, but stood for. Notwithstanding the debacle of the second half of my lifetime, I don’t think it’s therefore a ludicrous “expectation” to ask a manager to try and exceed his budget league table
If there’s no progression next season, that would be a more reasonable time to talk about change.
I would keep him I think, but if I was a professional running the club, I'd be reflecting on it in more detail, considering what he truly plans for next season, and what other options there might be.
Slippery slope when owners interfere with on pitch tactics. Not sure Jones would accept that, not many managers would.
Just make sure he has a competitive budget in the summer and let him get on with it.
If things have not improved come Xmas then a decision might have to be made.1 -
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One thing getting results to stay up but boring the fuck out of people while doing it isn’t winning many people over, including starting Dykes and Leaburn together in a home game. I realise resources somewhat dictate the way you play and hopefully we will upgrade in a lot of positions in the summer but my God NJ’s football bored me to death this year.12
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Fully agreed but I’ll accept it if it means we stayed in this division.VanbrughHill said:One thing getting results to stay up but boring the fuck out of people while doing it isn’t winning many people over, including starting Dykes and Leaburn together in a home game. I realise resources somewhat dictate the way you play and hopefully we will upgrade in a lot of positions in the summer but my God NJ’s football bored me to death this year.But improvement is essential next season which, to be fair, he acknowledges.2 -
I have no idea what you’re talking about, feels like you’re responding to a completely different conversation.Dazzler21 said:
It’s relevant because you mentioned resources, but you’re confusing 'budget' with 'talent.' Bowyer might have had fewer resources to spend, but the squad he actually had on the pitch, just look at those names like Aribo, Cullen, and Bielik. It was vastly superior to what we have now. My point stands, having a better squad (even on a shoestring) made his job incomparable to the current situation. This lot wouldn't get near that 18/19 side.paulsturgess said:
Was this meant to be posted in response to my post? As it makes no sense along side, and is completely irrelevant to, the post I made ?Dazzler21 said:paulsturgess said:
Compared with the circumstances bowyer managed in and the resources he had available to him in 19/20 , this season we should have been challenging for the titleDazzler21 said:
Erm are we going to ignore the massive gulf in quality of inherited squad?LittleAddick said:This season has actually made the Bowyer Championship season seem more impressive in hindsight. We spent about 200k that season, had 3 proper relegation spots as opposed to this year's 2, lost our best player for half the year, and was under an embargo for January. Yet somehow, this year despite spending 30x more we're barely any better.
That squad would destroy this one.I said Bowyer had a much harder job for many reasons in 19/20 in all respects - including resources, both financially and actual on the pitch options, than Jones has had this season in 25/26.
the squad in 18/19 is of absolutely zero relevance whatsoever to the point I was making
🤷♂️1 -
Okay the squad of 19/20 was even better than the 18/19 one so my point stands, on the pitch we are far worse and have done better than in 19/20.paulsturgess said:
I have no idea what you’re talking about, feels like you’re responding to a completely different conversation.Dazzler21 said:
It’s relevant because you mentioned resources, but you’re confusing 'budget' with 'talent.' Bowyer might have had fewer resources to spend, but the squad he actually had on the pitch, just look at those names like Aribo, Cullen, and Bielik. It was vastly superior to what we have now. My point stands, having a better squad (even on a shoestring) made his job incomparable to the current situation. This lot wouldn't get near that 18/19 side.paulsturgess said:
Was this meant to be posted in response to my post? As it makes no sense along side, and is completely irrelevant to, the post I made ?Dazzler21 said:paulsturgess said:
Compared with the circumstances bowyer managed in and the resources he had available to him in 19/20 , this season we should have been challenging for the titleDazzler21 said:
Erm are we going to ignore the massive gulf in quality of inherited squad?LittleAddick said:This season has actually made the Bowyer Championship season seem more impressive in hindsight. We spent about 200k that season, had 3 proper relegation spots as opposed to this year's 2, lost our best player for half the year, and was under an embargo for January. Yet somehow, this year despite spending 30x more we're barely any better.
That squad would destroy this one.I said Bowyer had a much harder job for many reasons in 19/20 in all respects - including resources, both financially and actual on the pitch options, than Jones has had this season in 25/26.
the squad in 18/19 is of absolutely zero relevance whatsoever to the point I was making
🤷♂️1 -
🤣Dazzler21 said:
Okay the squad of 19/20 was even better than the 18/19 one so my point stands, on the pitch we are far worse and have done better than in 19/20.paulsturgess said:
I have no idea what you’re talking about, feels like you’re responding to a completely different conversation.Dazzler21 said:
It’s relevant because you mentioned resources, but you’re confusing 'budget' with 'talent.' Bowyer might have had fewer resources to spend, but the squad he actually had on the pitch, just look at those names like Aribo, Cullen, and Bielik. It was vastly superior to what we have now. My point stands, having a better squad (even on a shoestring) made his job incomparable to the current situation. This lot wouldn't get near that 18/19 side.paulsturgess said:
Was this meant to be posted in response to my post? As it makes no sense along side, and is completely irrelevant to, the post I made ?Dazzler21 said:paulsturgess said:
Compared with the circumstances bowyer managed in and the resources he had available to him in 19/20 , this season we should have been challenging for the titleDazzler21 said:
Erm are we going to ignore the massive gulf in quality of inherited squad?LittleAddick said:This season has actually made the Bowyer Championship season seem more impressive in hindsight. We spent about 200k that season, had 3 proper relegation spots as opposed to this year's 2, lost our best player for half the year, and was under an embargo for January. Yet somehow, this year despite spending 30x more we're barely any better.
That squad would destroy this one.I said Bowyer had a much harder job for many reasons in 19/20 in all respects - including resources, both financially and actual on the pitch options, than Jones has had this season in 25/26.
the squad in 18/19 is of absolutely zero relevance whatsoever to the point I was making
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So difficult to reason with those who are solely out to blindly defend Jones. that statement is ludicrous.bowyer had bonne Leko and josh Davison to choose from as his strikers most of the season.Oshilaja, bonne, purrington, albie morgan were some of our leading appearance makers.Just to remind some of the wider circumstances as well facing bowyer:
- sacked immediately after securing promotion
- lowest budget in division (not one of lowest, but lowest)
- only 1 player signed for money. National league top scorer (vs league one top scorer this time round!)
- Squad started season markedly weaker than one that was promoted 2 months prior
- Taylor tried to secure move to Brentford in August, then got injured and missed 4 months of season- unbelievable injury crisis for sustained period, with Leko missing second half of season to add to Taylor with ACL injury
- squad is so bad that Gallagher was actively recalled from loan by parent club who had become offended at how pitiful squad had become
- EFL approved takeover of club from owner who sacked bowyer - then immediately placed us under embargo. No players can be signed to deal with injury crisis and remaining players forced to play through injury and supplemented by kids, some of whom were talentless kids (Ben Dempsey!)
- new owners spent remainder of season embezzling money from club, southall renting £12,000 pcm apartment whilst our soon to be out of contract leading scorer earned only £16,000 pcm himself with contract imminently expiring as he tried to single handedly win us a couple of games
- ownership debacle culminated in forcible removal by police from boardroom in mid season leaving absentee and unqualified nimer as owner
- after brief return from long term injury Taylor then refused to also play final quarter of season
- while season is being played out, club werw unable to offer even existing players new contracts due to ongoing embargo, leaving almost every player in squad uncertain of future despite being asked to play beyond contract expiry, twice a week due to CovidJones has had a tough time too though with Rob Apter upsetting the dressing room harmony, I understand that.12 -
I agree he isn't incapable of mixing things up tactically, but there are undeniably times when we are forced to abandon our primary strategy, whether because it isn't working, or injuries, or early concession, and we look completely devoid of ideas or an effective approach.NabySarr said:
The no plan B is such a lazy criticism. All season Jones has regularly changed shape or changed things tactically. If anything he sometimes changes things too muchChunes said:If he doesn't have a Plan B, what did he start with yesterday?
Ipswich is a prime example, TC injury forced us to abandon a strategy that was working relatively well. Second half seemed to just be hoof it long, not into particularly dangerous areas. It didn't work at all, zero shots in the half and no real pressure. Some of that I'm sure is players but you'd want Jones to be able to affect the game and get us doing something that might have a chance. Whether that's plan b or c or whatever1 -
Great postelbiglad said:This was such a likeable, easy to support team at the start of the year but we look a long way off that at the moment. I think the key issue is a lack of quality in the squad. That's driven by us coming up a 'year early' through the playoffs, a poor summer recruitment window and the effects of the season taking its toll on the team. When confidence was high the team was more than the sum of its parts, but that is no longer the case. We have a pretty average bunch of players, that only really suit one style of play with no elite attacking threats. We desperately need attacking, creative options in this squad and need to improve the depth and back-up options.
I am a fan of Jones but there are clear areas for improvement. He needs to develop a better plan B. We are limited by the players available, but throwing all your attackers on and lumping the ball forward is a schoolboy tactic that has barely worked for us this year. Two years in a row we have been good at defending our box but conceded lots of long range efforts. Players need to engage the ball earlier. We have to be braver in certain games with a higher line. Too often when we take the lead we drop deep from 60 minutes (sometimes earlier) and invite pressure on which we fail to see out. We simply have to get better at open play chance creation, though this likely requires better players.
Losing 6 of our last 7 at home and, more broadly, failing to score more than one goal in 39 games this year is nowhere near good enough. This run of form has been so hard to watch and has increased the pressure and drained confidence. We need one more result to confirm it. I think getting it done ourselves would be a significant achievement for the players even though staying up by any means necessary is all that matters. Get it over the line, learn some big lessons from this season and improve the squad in the summer.1 -
I'm still very firmly in the Jones In camp. Not because I like how we play football, I'm really more of a Ben Garner style man myself, but because:
1. I think we would seriously struggle to get someone better in. Not just someone better, but someone with a higher ceiling. I think Jonesball has a ceiling, but I don't think we've seen it yet, and I don't think we've seen how he evolves a squad in the Championship.
2. For all of the "we wasted a summer" and "we spent a lot last summer," we really didn't spend all that much for what was required. And we went for quantity, not quality, in some instances. It gave us more squad depth, particularly in midfield, up front, and at CB, but left us short of quality, particularly in midfield and at fullback. Yes, some signings have disappointed, and some signings aren't going to be good enough, but that's how transfer windows work. I still think Carey, Bell, JRC, Kelman, Bree/Clarke, Collins, and Dykes are all useful players at this level. I think Apter has a lot of potential if he can get the mental side of his game right. I don't have particularly high hopes for Tanto, Burke (who has looked very good at times, he just can't stay fit), and for me jury is still out on TK. But for two of those, TK and Burke, they came with very high reputations, just with questions over fitness (Burke, who it was said would be a Premier League CB if he could stay fit) and TK's distribution and coming for crosses (both have been an issue this season). But both were proven at this level. Again, these things happen.
3. I think we need to wait and see what the next evolution of this squad looks like. We've relied on a lot of players who got us promoted, too much in the case of Doc and Macca, and we need to see what the next step up in player quality brings. To me, that means Jones gets the summer and some time next season to bed in players.
That being said, there are things I would change if I were in charge:
1. For me, the manager should never be in charge of signing players because managers come and go easily in this era and a Director of Football should be in charge to make signings of both players and managers to provide continuity for the club. This isn't going to change while Jones is here, but to me, it's always a mistake to let the manager be in charge of recruitment. Have a say certainly, but not the final say.
2. This summer needs to be about quality and quantity. I know what's his name talked about 8 + 8 + 8. I think we still need a lot of those first 8. That means a CM who can keep hold of, and carry, the ball. That means a first choice RWB. That means another striker. And then that second 8 must contain another CM (Doc needs to be relegated to squad depth or League One), another LWB, another LCB. We're going to need to spend at least 10m (unless we get some ridiculous deals/players from abroad) again if we want to take a step toward midtable.
3. If provided with the above, and as a catalyst for signings in our setup, Jones has earned the right to try to evolve this team. We're never going to be possession based. We're probably not going to ever be super easy on the eye. But we need to be able to keep and look after the ball, and we need to be more solid defensively than we've been in recent weeks. I believe Jones can do the latter, I'm not yet convinced he can do the former. But I also don't think you can play possession football with Doc as your 8, Carey as your 10 (good goalscorer though he is), and Coady as your 6. I just think that's a midfield set up to play on the counter. And we need to see a midfield built to look after the ball better.
I do think, for all his flaws, Jones knows what we need. Again, whether or not he's the man to actually do it remains to be seen. But we were certainly better in possession last season with players at or good for the level. I think last year's team--can look after the ball and create some while still relying heavily on pressing and counter attacks--is the model going forward. And I just don't think Jones has had the players this season to do that.
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The trouble woth 8 + 8 + 8 is if the first 8 are supposed to be the elite players but several of them aren't very elite and 4 of them are >50% of the time not fit to play.3
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No way will he bring in an “older head who’ll challenge him” even if he should. It’s pretty clear by now that it’s Jones’ way or you’re out the doorEr_Be_Ab_Pl_Wo_Wo_Ch said:I do think Jones needs to take a look at his coaching team, and the help he gets. After every game he'll remind us (and his players) that the players are doing their best, but ultimately that they aren't good enough and we're new to this level. If people are being thrown under the bus I think he needs to include the coaching staff in those comments, too.
For example...
Being able to press as a cohesive unit - coaches.
Turning up on match day and making sure it actually happens - NJ.
One of both of them aren't doing their job. I really think he needs to look closer to home - his best signings in the summer could be on the coaching side and an older head who'll challenge him.2
