I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................

fenaddick

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

fenaddick said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

ForeverAddickted said:

On the subject of transfers, with people asking why we're bringing in crocked players like Chalobah and potentially March, the answer is bloody simple, because if we want their level of ability in the team then they are all that we can afford - and that we have to take the risk in hoping they'll be fit enough to contribute as much as what we were hoping.

On the topic of Ouma, he's another one where we've had to take the risk and hope that his talent and ability on the pitch would justify the transfer (thankfully its likely its only a loan), because what we've seen in the scouting videos, I imagine we feel we can't afford to pay the same sort of money for an already established Championship player of the same ilk... Mesik could have been exactly the same sort of disappointed (on the pitch), given our mixed history signing players from the Eredivisie, its the risk you take signing any player - Yes there were always the warnings that Ouma would do what he's potentially gone and done, but equally you'd have hoped that coming to play in England would have been the difference, here you get the chance to get properly noticed, the chance to play in the Premier League and earn proper money, certainly compared to what he's no doubt been able to earn from the game so far I'd imagine... Sadly its quite possible he's not taken those factors into consideration.

Re: transfers i don't know why we're not looking more at the Japanese league (or at least Japanese players in other leagues). They're likely to be relatively cheap, attitude not likely to be a problem, and they always seem to settle well in English football.

I know we were linked with a right back last season, but perhaps we should be exploring what midfielders are out there.

Because it's classed as a Band 4 league in the work permit process, for them to qualify for a permit they will need to be playing a good chunk of international football which will put them out of our budget. 

The way round that is to buy a Japanese player who has played in Germany, for example, but then their cost shoots up

Stoke signed Seko from the J league and he wasn't an international (unless the rules changed since then).

Birmingham got Iwata from Celtic and i don't think he cost a lot (probably on good wages though).

Must be some playing in 'cheaper' leagues like Holland, Belgium, Austria etc. QPR got Saito for less than 3m.

They will have used one of their 4 exception slots for that, I don't think we have any of those left.

I'm not saying it's impossible but it isn't simple and it takes some juggling

ForeverAddickted

fenaddick said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

fenaddick said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

ForeverAddickted said:

On the subject of transfers, with people asking why we're bringing in crocked players like Chalobah and potentially March, the answer is bloody simple, because if we want their level of ability in the team then they are all that we can afford - and that we have to take the risk in hoping they'll be fit enough to contribute as much as what we were hoping.

On the topic of Ouma, he's another one where we've had to take the risk and hope that his talent and ability on the pitch would justify the transfer (thankfully its likely its only a loan), because what we've seen in the scouting videos, I imagine we feel we can't afford to pay the same sort of money for an already established Championship player of the same ilk... Mesik could have been exactly the same sort of disappointed (on the pitch), given our mixed history signing players from the Eredivisie, its the risk you take signing any player - Yes there were always the warnings that Ouma would do what he's potentially gone and done, but equally you'd have hoped that coming to play in England would have been the difference, here you get the chance to get properly noticed, the chance to play in the Premier League and earn proper money, certainly compared to what he's no doubt been able to earn from the game so far I'd imagine... Sadly its quite possible he's not taken those factors into consideration.

Re: transfers i don't know why we're not looking more at the Japanese league (or at least Japanese players in other leagues). They're likely to be relatively cheap, attitude not likely to be a problem, and they always seem to settle well in English football.

I know we were linked with a right back last season, but perhaps we should be exploring what midfielders are out there.

Because it's classed as a Band 4 league in the work permit process, for them to qualify for a permit they will need to be playing a good chunk of international football which will put them out of our budget. 

The way round that is to buy a Japanese player who has played in Germany, for example, but then their cost shoots up

Stoke signed Seko from the J league and he wasn't an international (unless the rules changed since then).

Birmingham got Iwata from Celtic and i don't think he cost a lot (probably on good wages though).

Must be some playing in 'cheaper' leagues like Holland, Belgium, Austria etc. QPR got Saito for less than 3m.

They will have used one of their 4 exception slots for that, I don't think we have any of those left.

I'm not saying it's impossible but it isn't simple and it takes some juggling

Dont we have one space left... Ouma, Sichenje and Mesik are our three foreign Internationals, and wasn’t there one of those, possibly Mesik (?) who actually met the requirements so doesn't actually count as an exception - Unless Edwards also counts towards the rules as well given he's the one other player in the team that has never been involved within an English Academy

fenaddick

ForeverAddickted said:

fenaddick said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

fenaddick said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

ForeverAddickted said:

On the subject of transfers, with people asking why we're bringing in crocked players like Chalobah and potentially March, the answer is bloody simple, because if we want their level of ability in the team then they are all that we can afford - and that we have to take the risk in hoping they'll be fit enough to contribute as much as what we were hoping.

On the topic of Ouma, he's another one where we've had to take the risk and hope that his talent and ability on the pitch would justify the transfer (thankfully its likely its only a loan), because what we've seen in the scouting videos, I imagine we feel we can't afford to pay the same sort of money for an already established Championship player of the same ilk... Mesik could have been exactly the same sort of disappointed (on the pitch), given our mixed history signing players from the Eredivisie, its the risk you take signing any player - Yes there were always the warnings that Ouma would do what he's potentially gone and done, but equally you'd have hoped that coming to play in England would have been the difference, here you get the chance to get properly noticed, the chance to play in the Premier League and earn proper money, certainly compared to what he's no doubt been able to earn from the game so far I'd imagine... Sadly its quite possible he's not taken those factors into consideration.

Re: transfers i don't know why we're not looking more at the Japanese league (or at least Japanese players in other leagues). They're likely to be relatively cheap, attitude not likely to be a problem, and they always seem to settle well in English football.

I know we were linked with a right back last season, but perhaps we should be exploring what midfielders are out there.

Because it's classed as a Band 4 league in the work permit process, for them to qualify for a permit they will need to be playing a good chunk of international football which will put them out of our budget. 

The way round that is to buy a Japanese player who has played in Germany, for example, but then their cost shoots up

Stoke signed Seko from the J league and he wasn't an international (unless the rules changed since then).

Birmingham got Iwata from Celtic and i don't think he cost a lot (probably on good wages though).

Must be some playing in 'cheaper' leagues like Holland, Belgium, Austria etc. QPR got Saito for less than 3m.

They will have used one of their 4 exception slots for that, I don't think we have any of those left.

I'm not saying it's impossible but it isn't simple and it takes some juggling

Dont we have one space left... Ouma, Sichenje and Mesik are our three foreign Internationals, and wasn’t there one of those, possibly Mesik (?) who actually met the requirements so doesn't actually count as an exception - Unless Edwards also counts towards the rules as well given he's the one other player in the team that has never been involved within an English Academy

I can't remember, I worked it out at the end of the window but that feels a lifetime ago. I do remember that Mesík didn't require an exemption though

MarcusH26

I do think there's a really interesting conversation to be had about the transfer strategy. I get bringing in champ experience on frees in Danny Mac and Grant because that's something that showed in January with the arrivals of Clarke and Dykes that having that experience and knowledge of the level was invaluable to have. Mesik looks like an absolute steal at £500k same with Billy K at a similar fee - I imagine we were probably also watching Luke Graham at the same time at Dundee and couldn't compete with Stoke for him. 

Midfield is the puzzling one. Chalobah is made of glass but everyone in the game knows that so it was always going to be when he got injured not if. Skipp feels like a panic loan signing on deadline day which fits more in with some of the deadline day messes under previous owners. 

It's clear we tried for Holsgrove and maybe we try again in January but I don't really see the similarities between Holsgrove as this more technical deep lying playmaker and ending up with Ouma who on YouTube looked far more like the type of physical CM NJ has had most places he's been. 

Alli I don't fully understand the signing unless at some stage there was some serious chance TC was actually going? 

I guess coming into the summer I was expecting all this talk of quartiles and stuff from Carter to translate into getting the chequebook out a couple of times for serious quality. Maybe the taps have been turned off and the budget cut because some of the investors want out , I doubt we'll ever truly know. 

fenaddick

No doubt Alli was signed with the expectation that TC was going in my eyes. Which is questionable in itself because he's nowhere near the player TC is

MarcusH26

fenaddick said:

No doubt Alli was signed with the exemption that TC was going in my eyes. Which is questionable in itself because he's nowhere near the player TC is

Yeah bar a couple of flashes on his debut I've seen nothing from Alli to suggest he improves us at all. For the only substantial fee (1m+) we spent this summer that's absolutely not what you want to see. 

NabySarr

fenaddick said:

No doubt Alli was signed with the exemption that TC was going in my eyes. Which is questionable in itself because he's nowhere near the player TC is

I think the plan would have been Grant first choice, Alli on the bench. Although he’s obviously not as good there are definitely similarities between what Alli would offer and what we’d be missing from losing TC 

cabbles

Digressing a bit but agree with the last few posts re: our recruitment.  Mesik and Koumetio good buys, McNamara and Grant on paper should add something to the team over the course of the season.  

Alli is frustrating as we’ve spent 1.5m on him and given him a 4 year deal.  It looks like it’s right out of the Rob Apter/Tanto playbook from last season that has backfired on us.  All due respect to him, I see nothing that warranted handing him a 4 year deal at his age, with his career to date.  It very much feels like Phil Chapel having ran out of ideas or avenues to explore and Alli is his version of Jonathan Leko under Gallen.  I expect we’ll be looking to move him on next summer if we’re still in the Championship, or worst still, hoping he can do a job in league one if we go down.  

The fundamental screw up was not getting a suitable player in central midfield to sit alongside Coventry or another.  Ouma has been a massive gamble, and now we’re praying on Chalobah 

Poor planning and execution and this will be the spot that screws us imo.  Needs rectifying in Jan, but I’m at a loss as to what a suitable alternative is given it’s the Jan window 

Hopefully we’ve managed to get some points on the board by then 

Chris_from_Sidcup

MarcusH26 said:

I do think there's a really interesting conversation to be had about the transfer strategy. I get bringing in champ experience on frees in Danny Mac and Grant because that's something that showed in January with the arrivals of Clarke and Dykes that having that experience and knowledge of the level was invaluable to have. Mesik looks like an absolute steal at £500k same with Billy K at a similar fee - I imagine we were probably also watching Luke Graham at the same time at Dundee and couldn't compete with Stoke for him. 

Midfield is the puzzling one. Chalobah is made of glass but everyone in the game knows that so it was always going to be when he got injured not if. Skipp feels like a panic loan signing on deadline day which fits more in with some of the deadline day messes under previous owners. 

It's clear we tried for Holsgrove and maybe we try again in January but I don't really see the similarities between Holsgrove as this more technical deep lying playmaker and ending up with Ouma who on YouTube looked far more like the type of physical CM NJ has had most places he's been. 

Alli I don't fully understand the signing unless at some stage there was some serious chance TC was actually going? 

I guess coming into the summer I was expecting all this talk of quartiles and stuff from Carter to translate into getting the chequebook out a couple of times for serious quality. Maybe the taps have been turned off and the budget cut because some of the investors want out , I doubt we'll ever truly know. 

Imagine how absolutely fucked we'd be if he had gone!!

NabySarr

I think the Alli signing is being over-hated. £1.5m is barely anything in the championship, Alli is fine as a bench option which is what £1.5m gets you at this level. 

The problem was we didn’t sign a first choice right winger or upgrade our midfield, these are both things that Jones clearly spoke about in his interviews at the end of last season and throughout the summer, but what he wanted was not delivered so now we are in a tricky spot until January where we can hopefully address those issues at least with short term signings 

Changing the manager isn’t going to do anything in my opinion. We still won’t have a midfield capable of progressing the ball well, or an outlet on the right hand side. A new manager doesn’t change those glaring issues with the team

Until January, Jones needs to find the least bad way to set the team up (with no good RWB or RW there isn’t a good way to set up). I suspect that’s going to be 4-2-3-1 with either Grant or Alli on the right wing, and ideally getting Mwamba or Costello in the team 

Sword65pf

NabySarr said:

I think the Alli signing is being over-hated. £1.5m is barely anything in the championship, Alli is fine as a bench option which is what £1.5m gets you at this level. 

The problem was we didn’t sign a first choice right winger or upgrade our midfield, these are both things that Jones clearly spoke about in his interviews at the end of last season and throughout the summer, but what he wanted was not delivered so now we are in a tricky spot until January where we can hopefully address those issues at least with short term signings 

Changing the manager isn’t going to do anything in my opinion. We still won’t have a midfield capable of progressing the ball well, or an outlet on the right hand side. A new manager doesn’t change those glaring issues with the team

Until January, Jones needs to find the least bad way to set the team up (with no good RWB or RW there isn’t a good way to set up). I suspect that’s going to be 4-2-3-1 with either Grant or Alli on the right wing, and ideally getting Mwamba or Costello in the team 

I think the changing the manager discussion is never going to end, it depends on what people feel is doing the most damage, lack of quality players, or the managers tactics and inability to get a tune out of said players? For as long as NJ sticks with his footballing philosophy he is going to to feel the heat quicker than normal, I feel it’s inevitable he will go, whether people are in support of him or not. I think these players have more quality than is being shown at the moment, is he over coaching and just won’t let the hand brake off?.

shine166

Addick Addict said:

shine166 said:

NabySarr said:

wmcf123 said:

NabySarr said:

stjohnshill said:

I still back Jones but there are a few alarming trends that I am noticing - 

1) When we have 3 Championship games in a week, our record in that 3rd game is horrendous - P10 W0 D2 L8 scoring 3 conceding 18!!  Unfairly, 8 of those games have been away from home but Jones saying post match I should have freshened things up is true yet he hasn’t seemed to have learnt from the 9 matches before that how important it is for the 3rd game that week 

2) Jones strength of signing defenders with great traits, developing and coaching up, which his record is fantastic, is hurting us with attacking signings at large. 

He clearly signs a lot of attackers on traits because he believes he can develop them the same way. Sadly that has not been the case for most of them. Attacking wise we’ve been poor since he arrive and this season so far it’s much of the same. You can argue we looked better with Chalobah and we did but we all knew we’d get injured. His back up, Timmy. Another NJ signing based on traits who he believes he can develop, has turned out to be a nightmare and not for the first time in his career. 

4 out of the next 6 are at home. Desperately need 7 points from those to stay away from the relegation zone otherwise I think questions will have to be asked. 

He's good at signing defenders because they are cheaper. I bet he would love to sign midfielders and attackers that are the complete package rather than players with good traits that need more developing, but we simply don't have the budget to do that

Although he wasted a load of money on Kelman, Knibbs, Apter and Olaofe

That’s exactly my point. Signing top end league 1 attackers was all we could afford. If you want ready made championship attackers then they cost more than what we spent on those players 

Chatgpt reckons we spent 8m on those 4. At what point does it make more sense to buy fewer players with the same budget, but better quality ?. Would love to know the total bill for last seasons 17 purchases, of which zero started on saturday.

Considering we are still starting players who came up with us in league 1, it might make more sense to sign 3/4 players who are Championship ready now, as all we are doing is buying good from league 1 and then expecting our kids to shine amongst them.

Birmingham spent £25m on two forwards who produced 11 goals between them in 49 starts plus 23 sub appearances last season. One of those cost £10m last July and was sold this summer for less than £1m - a £9m loss in a year!!! So a big money signing doesn't alone guarantee goals. 

By comparison, Kelman cost 10% of that and scored 7 goals in 19 starts plus 14 sub appearances and that's in a team that isn't set up to attack. We will never know what his true worth is at this level until we play to his strengths and if NJ isn't prepared to do that for him then I'm not convinced that he will do so for a more expensive purchase either. 

The other aspect is that 20 goal strikers in the Championship last season were virtually non-existent. Only Vipotnik (23) managed to do that with McBurnie (18), Wright (17), Clarke (16), Windass (16) and Gerhardt (15). In fact, only 10 players scored more than 12 goals. 

So, what distinguished the better teams from the less successful ones? Goals from all areas. Coventry had 5 players who scored at least 10 goals each, recording in total 63 goals from 186 appearances. Our front 5 on Saturday have 16 Championship goals from the last two seasons in 234 appearances. NJ selected those players, set up the team and those are the reasons we haven't scored three times in a league game in a year. It's a perfect storm.  

I asked the question at the back end of last season whether NJ would look to be more on the front foot this time round and was told that this was his intention. Sadly, I think that he will always defer to his tried and tested modus operandi of first and foremost not conceding. It's also the reason why any player who doesn't do more without the ball than with it has little chance of getting a start in the team. I don't think we'll go down under him but it isn't going to be a fun watch either. More of the same in fact. 

Spending more, definitely doesn't automatically guarantee success, but shopping in a better market does improve the chances. 

DennisBooth

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

Sword65pf

shine166 said:

Addick Addict said:

shine166 said:

NabySarr said:

wmcf123 said:

NabySarr said:

stjohnshill said:

I still back Jones but there are a few alarming trends that I am noticing - 

1) When we have 3 Championship games in a week, our record in that 3rd game is horrendous - P10 W0 D2 L8 scoring 3 conceding 18!!  Unfairly, 8 of those games have been away from home but Jones saying post match I should have freshened things up is true yet he hasn’t seemed to have learnt from the 9 matches before that how important it is for the 3rd game that week 

2) Jones strength of signing defenders with great traits, developing and coaching up, which his record is fantastic, is hurting us with attacking signings at large. 

He clearly signs a lot of attackers on traits because he believes he can develop them the same way. Sadly that has not been the case for most of them. Attacking wise we’ve been poor since he arrive and this season so far it’s much of the same. You can argue we looked better with Chalobah and we did but we all knew we’d get injured. His back up, Timmy. Another NJ signing based on traits who he believes he can develop, has turned out to be a nightmare and not for the first time in his career. 

4 out of the next 6 are at home. Desperately need 7 points from those to stay away from the relegation zone otherwise I think questions will have to be asked. 

He's good at signing defenders because they are cheaper. I bet he would love to sign midfielders and attackers that are the complete package rather than players with good traits that need more developing, but we simply don't have the budget to do that

Although he wasted a load of money on Kelman, Knibbs, Apter and Olaofe

That’s exactly my point. Signing top end league 1 attackers was all we could afford. If you want ready made championship attackers then they cost more than what we spent on those players 

Chatgpt reckons we spent 8m on those 4. At what point does it make more sense to buy fewer players with the same budget, but better quality ?. Would love to know the total bill for last seasons 17 purchases, of which zero started on saturday.

Considering we are still starting players who came up with us in league 1, it might make more sense to sign 3/4 players who are Championship ready now, as all we are doing is buying good from league 1 and then expecting our kids to shine amongst them.

Birmingham spent £25m on two forwards who produced 11 goals between them in 49 starts plus 23 sub appearances last season. One of those cost £10m last July and was sold this summer for less than £1m - a £9m loss in a year!!! So a big money signing doesn't alone guarantee goals. 

By comparison, Kelman cost 10% of that and scored 7 goals in 19 starts plus 14 sub appearances and that's in a team that isn't set up to attack. We will never know what his true worth is at this level until we play to his strengths and if NJ isn't prepared to do that for him then I'm not convinced that he will do so for a more expensive purchase either. 

The other aspect is that 20 goal strikers in the Championship last season were virtually non-existent. Only Vipotnik (23) managed to do that with McBurnie (18), Wright (17), Clarke (16), Windass (16) and Gerhardt (15). In fact, only 10 players scored more than 12 goals. 

So, what distinguished the better teams from the less successful ones? Goals from all areas. Coventry had 5 players who scored at least 10 goals each, recording in total 63 goals from 186 appearances. Our front 5 on Saturday have 16 Championship goals from the last two seasons in 234 appearances. NJ selected those players, set up the team and those are the reasons we haven't scored three times in a league game in a year. It's a perfect storm.  

I asked the question at the back end of last season whether NJ would look to be more on the front foot this time round and was told that this was his intention. Sadly, I think that he will always defer to his tried and tested modus operandi of first and foremost not conceding. It's also the reason why any player who doesn't do more without the ball than with it has little chance of getting a start in the team. I don't think we'll go down under him but it isn't going to be a fun watch either. More of the same in fact. 

Spending more, definitely doesn't automatically guarantee success, but shopping in a better market does improve the chances. 

In the majority of cases, the saying you get what you pay for, isn’t far from the truth, will always be outlying situations that buck that trend but not that often. We have proved that with our signings over the last couple of seasons with the market we are shopping in.

bobmunro

I still don't fully get the argument that we haven't got the players to play competently at Championship level. Our entire squad is made up of players who have gone through academies (ours or others) starting from the age of 7 or so, and have plied there trade in professional football. They can all run, pass, dribble, shoot, head a football, tackle. They have experience enough to read a game, to cover players, and so on. It's not an elite squad of course but it's not without competence.

We've taken 5 points from the last 8 games, only scoring 5 goals in that time. That is abysmal but I genuinely do not believe that is solely down to our players not being good enough. For me it is so much more about team selection - Jones stating that he's been sticking to the same 14 players when, for example, he readily admits that Knibbs is pulling up trees in training), and above all else tactics. As others have said, Kelman is a goal scorer that will and has scored goals at this level, yet he seldom plays and virtually never starts. Instead he sticks with Leaburn and pumps long balls up to him with very little support after any successful first touch. Kelman comes on and the same thing happens - he is not a target man, he's a finisher.

You don't need to pay £30m for a Stadivaius - as the old saying goes "there is many a good tune played on an old fiddle". 

It's on Jones and he must change his approach. He can't be right and the vast majority of onlookers (Charlton fans or not) all be wrong.

fenaddick

DennisBooth said:

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

If we're in the relegation zone approaching the January window then I think that's when you pull the trigger. You have to give a new manager the chance to change the squad. I don't think getting them in much earlier than that does much use

NabySarr

Sword65pf said:

NabySarr said:

I think the Alli signing is being over-hated. £1.5m is barely anything in the championship, Alli is fine as a bench option which is what £1.5m gets you at this level. 

The problem was we didn’t sign a first choice right winger or upgrade our midfield, these are both things that Jones clearly spoke about in his interviews at the end of last season and throughout the summer, but what he wanted was not delivered so now we are in a tricky spot until January where we can hopefully address those issues at least with short term signings 

Changing the manager isn’t going to do anything in my opinion. We still won’t have a midfield capable of progressing the ball well, or an outlet on the right hand side. A new manager doesn’t change those glaring issues with the team

Until January, Jones needs to find the least bad way to set the team up (with no good RWB or RW there isn’t a good way to set up). I suspect that’s going to be 4-2-3-1 with either Grant or Alli on the right wing, and ideally getting Mwamba or Costello in the team 

I think the changing the manager discussion is never going to end, it depends on what people feel is doing the most damage, lack of quality players, or the managers tactics and inability to get a tune out of said players? For as long as NJ sticks with his footballing philosophy he is going to to feel the heat quicker than normal, I feel it’s inevitable he will go, whether people are in support of him or not. I think these players have more quality than is being shown at the moment, is he over coaching and just won’t let the hand brake off?.

Most of our players have not done well in the championship before. They have mostly either been promoted or signed from league 1. Nathan Jones though has done well in the championship before. That to me says it’s more the lack of quality players than the manager 

I think the general consensus outside of our Charlton bubble, is that we have a poor squad and a good manager so might stay up because of that. Listen to any neutral preview of the season and it’s a pretty common theme, Nathan jones is the reason for any faith we wouldn’t go down, so take him out and what do we have left? A poor squad and then whoever the board could bring in to replace Jones, and most of the names I’ve seen mentioned would be very unrealistic 

AberystwythAddick

fenaddick said:

DennisBooth said:

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

If we're in the relegation zone approaching the January window then I think that's when you pull the trigger. You have to give a new manager the chance to change the squad. I don't think getting them in much earlier than that does much use

It would give them time to fully assess the squad and understand what is needed as a matter of priority 

shine166

NabySarr said:

Sword65pf said:

NabySarr said:

I think the Alli signing is being over-hated. £1.5m is barely anything in the championship, Alli is fine as a bench option which is what £1.5m gets you at this level. 

The problem was we didn’t sign a first choice right winger or upgrade our midfield, these are both things that Jones clearly spoke about in his interviews at the end of last season and throughout the summer, but what he wanted was not delivered so now we are in a tricky spot until January where we can hopefully address those issues at least with short term signings 

Changing the manager isn’t going to do anything in my opinion. We still won’t have a midfield capable of progressing the ball well, or an outlet on the right hand side. A new manager doesn’t change those glaring issues with the team

Until January, Jones needs to find the least bad way to set the team up (with no good RWB or RW there isn’t a good way to set up). I suspect that’s going to be 4-2-3-1 with either Grant or Alli on the right wing, and ideally getting Mwamba or Costello in the team 

I think the changing the manager discussion is never going to end, it depends on what people feel is doing the most damage, lack of quality players, or the managers tactics and inability to get a tune out of said players? For as long as NJ sticks with his footballing philosophy he is going to to feel the heat quicker than normal, I feel it’s inevitable he will go, whether people are in support of him or not. I think these players have more quality than is being shown at the moment, is he over coaching and just won’t let the hand brake off?.

Most of our players have not done well in the championship before. They have mostly either been promoted or signed from league 1. Nathan Jones though has done well in the championship before. That to me says it’s more the lack of quality players than the manager 

I think the general consensus outside of our Charlton bubble, is that we have a poor squad and a good manager so might stay up because of that. Listen to any neutral preview of the season and it’s a pretty common theme, Nathan jones is the reason for any faith we wouldn’t go down, so take him out and what do we have left? A poor squad and then whoever the board could bring in to replace Jones, and most of the names I’ve seen mentioned would be very unrealistic 

Poor squad built by Jones. We always seem to have an excuse though, last season we apparently got promoted too early.

Jones is always telling us how long hes been scouting these players too.

fenaddick

AberystwythAddick said:

fenaddick said:

DennisBooth said:

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

If we're in the relegation zone approaching the January window then I think that's when you pull the trigger. You have to give a new manager the chance to change the squad. I don't think getting them in much earlier than that does much use

It would give them time to fully assess the squad and understand what is needed as a matter of priority 

If they need 2 months to do that then they aren't up to much, should take a couple of weeks max. 

The only other possible time it makes sense is the international break because that gives time on the training ground but I think that would be too early in the season

NabySarr

DennisBooth said:

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

There is obviously a point where there would be no way back. Probably more due to toxicity and break down in relationship between squad and manager. I don’t think we are near that point yet but if results don’t turn around we might get there 

Scott Parker is a laughable pick, firstly because he’d never drop to our level, and secondly because he’s never done anything good with a group of players that have been below the average for the level. He’s a good manager when he’s got a huge talent advantage over his opponents, him managing us would be a lot closer to his attempts at managing in the premier league which have been disastrous. His style of football is also just as unwatchable as Jones but in a different way, and we definitely don’t have the players to pull it off and pass teams to death 

Challinor would be a better pick but he’s never managed in the championship and was unable to get Stockport out of league 1 with a pretty healthy budget and squad. 

AberystwythAddick

fenaddick said:

AberystwythAddick said:

fenaddick said:

DennisBooth said:

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

If we're in the relegation zone approaching the January window then I think that's when you pull the trigger. You have to give a new manager the chance to change the squad. I don't think getting them in much earlier than that does much use

It would give them time to fully assess the squad and understand what is needed as a matter of priority 

If they need 2 months to do that then they aren't up to much, should take a couple of weeks max. 

The only other possible time it makes sense is the international break because that gives time on the training ground but I think that would be too early in the season

A couple of weeks to fully assess the squad, work out what is needed, get Phil Chapple to scout the required position providing several options in each? 

Pretty sure that would take more that a couple of weeks 

ForeverAddickted

AberystwythAddick said:

fenaddick said:

DennisBooth said:

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

If we're in the relegation zone approaching the January window then I think that's when you pull the trigger. You have to give a new manager the chance to change the squad. I don't think getting them in much earlier than that does much use

It would give them time to fully assess the squad and understand what is needed as a matter of priority 

Have to hope that the owners are going to be prepared to spend the cash though, the evidence that they were willing to spend £5m on Rak-Sakyi says yes, but equally given that we didn't get anywhere close to that sort of fee on anyone else, was that basically a transfer to try and keep the fans onside?

The fact that £1.5m was the most we spent on a single player elsewhere, makes you wonder how much Jones / Chapple had to work with themselves in the summer, especially as well if they were / are forced to resort to bringing in Chalobah / March, as cant think they're doing it on the hope that after countless injuries, the players will prove they're suddenly over them and we'll suddenly find ourselves getting 30+ matches out of them each.

its why again it comes back to the fact that I think Jones would love to have us playing better (Just look at how he set the foundations at Luton for Edwards to get them promoted to the Premier League) - Yet he can't, so he's setting us up, especially away from the Valley, to be more of a smash / grab type team.

Elthamaddick

cabbles said:

Digressing a bit but agree with the last few posts re: our recruitment.  Mesik and Koumetio good buys, McNamara and Grant on paper should add something to the team over the course of the season.  

Alli is frustrating as we’ve spent 1.5m on him and given him a 4 year deal.  It looks like it’s right out of the Rob Apter/Tanto playbook from last season that has backfired on us.  All due respect to him, I see nothing that warranted handing him a 4 year deal at his age, with his career to date.  It very much feels like Phil Chapel having ran out of ideas or avenues to explore and Alli is his version of Jonathan Leko under Gallen.  I expect we’ll be looking to move him on next summer if we’re still in the Championship, or worst still, hoping he can do a job in league one if we go down.  

The fundamental screw up was not getting a suitable player in central midfield to sit alongside Coventry or another.  Ouma has been a massive gamble, and now we’re praying on Chalobah 

Poor planning and execution and this will be the spot that screws us imo.  Needs rectifying in Jan, but I’m at a loss as to what a suitable alternative is given it’s the Jan window 

Hopefully we’ve managed to get some points on the board by then 

good post - I'm nowhere near as down on Alli as many are, I think there's a player in there and we've definitely seen signs of it

fenaddick

AberystwythAddick said:

fenaddick said:

AberystwythAddick said:

fenaddick said:

DennisBooth said:

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

If we're in the relegation zone approaching the January window then I think that's when you pull the trigger. You have to give a new manager the chance to change the squad. I don't think getting them in much earlier than that does much use

It would give them time to fully assess the squad and understand what is needed as a matter of priority 

If they need 2 months to do that then they aren't up to much, should take a couple of weeks max. 

The only other possible time it makes sense is the international break because that gives time on the training ground but I think that would be too early in the season

A couple of weeks to fully assess the squad, work out what is needed, get Phil Chapple to scout the required position providing several options in each? 

Pretty sure that would take more that a couple of weeks 

You think Phil Chapple isn't constantly scouting with lists of various different players with different profiles being constantly updated? If he isn't doing that, he isn't doing his job

FirenzeAddick

Even if a team is lower in 'quality' on paper, you can be greater than the sum of you parts by developing a strategy whereby you make the absolute most of your strengths.... we don't do that.

He tells us we are a front footed and aggressive side.... we are not, we have never been that under him. The only time I can think when we have actually once demonstrated that was Wycombe away.

We are pedestrian in possession, passive in our press (we look like the fitness levels which were so good initially have dropped off a cliff) and we go into every game with a 'must not lose' attitude, rather than a will to win.

He needs to urgently change that, but I can't see it happening.

stoneroses19

DennisBooth said:

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

It’s not the first time we’ve gone on a winless run under Jones, and every time he has eventually (frustratingly slow or not) figured it out and we’ve improved enough for safety (in both league one and championship) or promotion. 

I’m not being positive about our current performances and point tally as they’ve been atrocious. But I do have belief that it will change before we end up in the bottom 3.

Mametz

DennisBooth said:

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

The thing is that you are assuming that we would replace Jones with a more able manager. Take a look at the list our our managers, nearly twenty of them, since Chris Powell left and you’ll realize that the chances of us recruiting someone better than Jones are pretty small.

ForeverAddickted

Mametz said:

DennisBooth said:

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

The thing is that you are assuming that we would replace Jones with a more able manager. Take a look at the list our our managers, nearly twenty of them, since Chris Powell left and you’ll realize that the chances of us recruiting someone better than Jones are pretty small.

Funnily you've posted that, as was literally just remembering back to when we got rid of Holden and was thinking of the reaction when the concrete Appleton rumours started to appear

AberystwythAddick

stoneroses19 said:

DennisBooth said:

To all the people who want Jones to stay. What would make you change your mind? We have not won in the last eight games. Would you keep him for the Season? If things don’t improve in the next 5 to 10 games, would you then replace him? 

We cannot get relegated and play our football in League 1 next season. The players look really short of confidence and maybe a new manager would give us a bounce. I get it that the owners have not stumped up enough money to get us challenging for the playoffs. But I truly believe that a Dave Challinor, Scott Parker would get more out of these players. Jones started off with 4-2-3-1 now he has reverted to the formation that he used last Season.
i think that if we stay with Jones we will get relegated.

It’s not the first time we’ve gone on a winless run under Jones, and every time he has eventually (frustratingly slow or not) figured it out and we’ve improved enough for safety (in both league one and championship) or promotion. 

I’m not being positive about our current performances and point tally as they’ve been atrocious. But I do have belief that it will change before we end up in the bottom 3.

The post Middlesbrough run was diabolical though, I’m not sure you can say that we figured it out, rather just about got over the line. That was an achievement in itself but let’s not kid ourselves this final 9 games were awful