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I am going to say it!! Yes I am, Nathan Jones......................

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  • I need a bit more convincing, whilst we have been winning games we are not fluid and exciting on the eye, nicking wins like Bolton away need to be replaced with dominant, tactical performances 
    I will know more come the end of February 
  • edited January 29
    We can't say it now but at the end of the season we may be looking at the Rotherham match as a positive. A defeat is bad but it can also improve you and provide important learnings. Jones may see it that way. It was a test to team spirit that we have come through with flying colours.

    After Crawley, and we shouldn't forget what was before Crawley, I was for Jones being sacked. I changed my mind a few hours later before another match but it was more about being convinced we wouldn't bring in anybody better and that we can't keep sacking managers. Obviously, I am still of the mindset of him staying but I can see what he is trying to do whereas I couldn't a few games ago.
  • This year was always going to be a case of building from the back. We had to address the dire clean sheet record from last year and at this stage of the season we've certainly done that. When we lost Jones and Ramsay it was no surprise to me that it went wrong which is what worries me depth wise for the rest of this season. 

    We've got a solid back line that doesn't concede many chances, let alone goals. Now is the time we have to brave and invest in some quality in that midfield. Think we're in need of a creative number 10 to give Berry competition for his place and a defensive sided midfielder (like Moxon when that was rumoured) as a back up. Will be very interesting to see how we approach the last week of the window with so much to play for in the second half of the season
  • I was highly critical of Jones and although I didn’t want him sacked, I thought his poor tactics and hoofball along with massively disappointing performances and results might mean it was going to end badly. I still think the change of tactics was forced on him, either externally or that he feared for his job. Credit though because he did change. I also hear from various sources that the team spirit is second to none so credit for that too. 
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  • A positive for me is the team spirit in the squad. That seems to have come on stronger in the past month or so. A big part of that must be Nathan Jones surely. I’ve had my doubts about him which was understandable but things appear to be starting to gel and the players are on board with it. That’s a positive. 
  • Maybe the morale is helped by having a lot of his players in the squad.
  • Rob said:
    A positive for me is the team spirit in the squad. That seems to have come on stronger in the past month or so. A big part of that must be Nathan Jones surely. I’ve had my doubts about him which was understandable but things appear to be starting to gel and the players are on board with it. That’s a positive. 
    For all the criticism of his tactics and approach (whether justified or not) he never did seem to actually "lose the dressing room" in the same way as Holden or Appleton did when you could see that the players on the pitch literally could not give less of a damn and were near enough going through the motions.

    There has also been questions about whether his giving contracts/squad space to "mates" like Hylton, Berry and Potts would have been better spent on "actual coaches" but the fact that players never completely buckled and have actually come through stronger suggests he was probably right on this one too. 

    I was definitely a critic and even now I still think he made mistakes (and probably will make more) but you can't really argue with the form/results we're seeing at the moment.
  • I don't think Holden lost the dressing room. We often don't know and can only judge on performances where players may not look to be giving their all. I know Bowyer lost the dressing room at the end of his time as manager because I was aware of what happened after a certain game. Anyway there would have been reason to speculate earlier in the season, it is what us fans do, but there is no reason now.
  • I need a bit more convincing, whilst we have been winning games we are not fluid and exciting on the eye, nicking wins like Bolton away need to be replaced with dominant, tactical performances 
    I will know more come the end of February 
    Do they though? We were hardly dominant in 18/19, we just ground out results to get to where we needed to. We were the form team in L1 by season's end but of the 13 games we won in the new year, 7 of them were by the odd goal and we only scored 3 goals or more 3 times. We also drew 6 games but only lost 2, which was the most important part. We were often comfortable because we were incredibly hard to beat and did enough every game to get goals but I wouldn't call a lot of those results dominant. It was fine though, it was exactly what we needed to be. Even Powell won 15 of the 30 games he won by the odd goal and there were plenty of games were we clung on or rode our luck - Bournemouth away, both Sheffield games in the new year, we clinched promotion with 3 consecutive 1-0s against some seriously weak teams. We only beat Exeter 1-0 away because Danny Green accidentally scored. 

    The fact is, fluid or not, if we can keep scoring goals in games and keeping clean sheets then we don't need to worry about being dominant. The real question is whether we can make that Rotherham game a one-off blip or if it's something that's going to happen every 4 or 5 games, in which case we're not there yet.
  • Credit where  it's due, but you have to take your hat off to NJ, a light bulb moment where parts of the jigsaw are slowly being put together, I really hope the little bit of momentum can keep the team going! Big game this weekend hopefully we can get something from the game!
    At least we have come away from the "square pegs round holes" scenario, early days but well done to NJ and the team 👋👋👋!

  • I need a bit more convincing, whilst we have been winning games we are not fluid and exciting on the eye, nicking wins like Bolton away need to be replaced with dominant, tactical performances 
    I will know more come the end of February 
    Do they though? We were hardly dominant in 18/19, we just ground out results to get to where we needed to. We were the form team in L1 by season's end but of the 13 games we won in the new year, 7 of them were by the odd goal and we only scored 3 goals or more 3 times. We also drew 6 games but only lost 2, which was the most important part. We were often comfortable because we were incredibly hard to beat and did enough every game to get goals but I wouldn't call a lot of those results dominant. It was fine though, it was exactly what we needed to be. Even Powell won 15 of the 30 games he won by the odd goal and there were plenty of games were we clung on or rode our luck - Bournemouth away, both Sheffield games in the new year, we clinched promotion with 3 consecutive 1-0s against some seriously weak teams. We only beat Exeter 1-0 away because Danny Green accidentally scored. 

    The fact is, fluid or not, if we can keep scoring goals in games and keeping clean sheets then we don't need to worry about being dominant. The real question is whether we can make that Rotherham game a one-off blip or if it's something that's going to happen every 4 or 5 games, in which case we're not there yet.
    In 18/19 we had some strong players but a very thin squad. The squad is better now but we don't have a Cullen, Bielik or Taylor as he was then. But we do have good players and Small, Jones, Coventry, Leaburn, Ramsey and Campbell would be in or close to our best team then IMO.
  • I need a bit more convincing, whilst we have been winning games we are not fluid and exciting on the eye, nicking wins like Bolton away need to be replaced with dominant, tactical performances 
    I will know more come the end of February 
    Bolton where we hardly win? Bristol Rovers who are our bogey side of recent times! Beat Birmingham and Wycombe? 3 wins in a row?

    We are winning football matches and you can see the team are together and playing for NJ now! What more do you need? 

    We didn’t play well under Chris Powell in fact I thought we were boring to watch and scraped through a lot of games! Were we complaining at the end of that season?
  • edited January 29
    cafc_se7 said:
    I need a bit more convincing, whilst we have been winning games we are not fluid and exciting on the eye, nicking wins like Bolton away need to be replaced with dominant, tactical performances 
    I will know more come the end of February 
    Bolton where we hardly win? Bristol Rovers who are our bogey side of recent times! Beat Birmingham and Wycombe? 3 wins in a row?

    We are winning football matches and you can see the team are together and playing for NJ now! What more do you need? 

    We didn’t play well under Chris Powell in fact I thought we were boring to watch and scraped through a lot of games! Were we complaining at the end of that season?
    Under Powell we had quality up front and were well organised as a team. If you are solid and have Kermogant and BWP up front, you are going up from league one. Of course there were some other excellent players for the level that ensured we reached the 100 point mark.
  • I need a bit more convincing, whilst we have been winning games we are not fluid and exciting on the eye, nicking wins like Bolton away need to be replaced with dominant, tactical performances 
    I will know more come the end of February 
    Do they though? We were hardly dominant in 18/19, we just ground out results to get to where we needed to. We were the form team in L1 by season's end but of the 13 games we won in the new year, 7 of them were by the odd goal and we only scored 3 goals or more 3 times. We also drew 6 games but only lost 2, which was the most important part. We were often comfortable because we were incredibly hard to beat and did enough every game to get goals but I wouldn't call a lot of those results dominant. It was fine though, it was exactly what we needed to be. Even Powell won 15 of the 30 games he won by the odd goal and there were plenty of games were we clung on or rode our luck - Bournemouth away, both Sheffield games in the new year, we clinched promotion with 3 consecutive 1-0s against some seriously weak teams. We only beat Exeter 1-0 away because Danny Green accidentally scored. 

    The fact is, fluid or not, if we can keep scoring goals in games and keeping clean sheets then we don't need to worry about being dominant. The real question is whether we can make that Rotherham game a one-off blip or if it's something that's going to happen every 4 or 5 games, in which case we're not there yet.
    In 18/19 we had some strong players but a very thin squad. The squad is better now but we don't have a Cullen, Bielik or Taylor as he was then. But we do have good players and Small, Jones, Coventry, Leaburn, Ramsay and Campbell would be in or close to our best team then IMO.
    Not all that thin, or at least better than people give it credit for. Bielik actually missed a lot of football in that good run. In our last 14 league games he only played half of them, and came off at half time in one of those. We rotated in Pratley, Reeves, Lapslie, Morgan and Fosu a lot more than people remember I reckon. The magic diamond of Bielik, Cullen, Aribo and Williams only played together 5 times I think. Reeves made 29 league appearances, 22(!) of them starts. Cullen only played 29 times, Lapslie 27, Pratley 28, Fosu 27. Bauer even only played 35 games, Pearce 26. Solly of all people played more games than any of them that season with 37, though a troubling amount of that was at left back.

    Granted with a few of those cases you'll see the minutes are further apart even if the appearance numbers aren't, but ultimately we relied less on specific individuals and more on having a very clear method of grinding out results more or less regardless of who we had on the pitch. As long as we had someone to put the chances away, a strong defence even if it wasn't always settled, and a midfield that knew what the job was in each position we were ok. The midfielders rotated all round the diamond, Aribo sometimes at the tip sometimes deeper, Cullen on the side or the base, Reeves played every spot except the base. The roles were so clear that you could put more or less anyone there and we could function. That's slightly worrying for us as if you took one of Small or TC out of the side I think we'd struggle to have anyone else fulfil that role with our current setup, but hopefully we can bring in one or two players to cover them and diversify our play centrally a bit. Regardless though, as long as we remain incredibly hard to breach and can create chances like we are now we'll be in the conversation 
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  • edited 11:39AM
    I need a bit more convincing, whilst we have been winning games we are not fluid and exciting on the eye, nicking wins like Bolton away need to be replaced with dominant, tactical performances 
    I will know more come the end of February 
    Do they though? We were hardly dominant in 18/19, we just ground out results to get to where we needed to. We were the form team in L1 by season's end but of the 13 games we won in the new year, 7 of them were by the odd goal and we only scored 3 goals or more 3 times. We also drew 6 games but only lost 2, which was the most important part. We were often comfortable because we were incredibly hard to beat and did enough every game to get goals but I wouldn't call a lot of those results dominant. It was fine though, it was exactly what we needed to be. Even Powell won 15 of the 30 games he won by the odd goal and there were plenty of games were we clung on or rode our luck - Bournemouth away, both Sheffield games in the new year, we clinched promotion with 3 consecutive 1-0s against some seriously weak teams. We only beat Exeter 1-0 away because Danny Green accidentally scored. 

    The fact is, fluid or not, if we can keep scoring goals in games and keeping clean sheets then we don't need to worry about being dominant. The real question is whether we can make that Rotherham game a one-off blip or if it's something that's going to happen every 4 or 5 games, in which case we're not there yet.
    In 18/19 we had some strong players but a very thin squad. The squad is better now but we don't have a Cullen, Bielik or Taylor as he was then. But we do have good players and Small, Jones, Coventry, Leaburn, Ramsay and Campbell would be in or close to our best team then IMO.
    Not all that thin, or at least better than people give it credit for. Bielik actually missed a lot of football in that good run. In our last 14 league games he only played half of them, and came off at half time in one of those. We rotated in Pratley, Reeves, Lapslie, Morgan and Fosu a lot more than people remember I reckon. The magic diamond of Bielik, Cullen, Aribo and Williams only played together 5 times I think. Reeves made 29 league appearances, 22(!) of them starts. Cullen only played 29 times, Lapslie 27, Pratley 28, Fosu 27. Bauer even only played 35 games, Pearce 26. Solly of all people played more games than any of them that season with 37, though a troubling amount of that was at left back.

    Granted with a few of those cases you'll see the minutes are further apart even if the appearance numbers aren't, but ultimately we relied less on specific individuals and more on having a very clear method of grinding out results more or less regardless of who we had on the pitch. As long as we had someone to put the chances away, a strong defence even if it wasn't always settled, and a midfield that knew what the job was in each position we were ok. The midfielders rotated all round the diamond, Aribo sometimes at the tip sometimes deeper, Cullen on the side or the base, Reeves played every spot except the base. The roles were so clear that you could put more or less anyone there and we could function. That's slightly worrying for us as if you took one of Small or TC out of the side I think we'd struggle to have anyone else fulfil that role with our current setup, but hopefully we can bring in one or two players to cover them and diversify our play centrally a bit. Regardless though, as long as we remain incredibly hard to breach and can create chances like we are now we'll be in the conversation 
    I recall a game at Oxford when we were missing a couple af key players and I expected us to lose it which we did. This was towards the end of the season when we were winning regularly.

    I think there issue in how we now play with pace up front/wide in terms of replacements. Dixon may be a solution but he is not and hasn't been assimilated into the side as of yet. I think a player with similar attributes to TC and Small would be very valuable. It looks like A Campbell is off so with TT gone, I think we may need cover there although you need the right players not any players. 
  • As a club (and now as a fanbase) we needed to move on from being a club that sacks the manager at the first sign of poor form. Especially when you have got a good manager, which we do, you have to be patient and give them time to get out the other side of a poor run. Poor runs are going to happen, but if we sack the manager every time it does we won’t progress as you just end up back at square one each time (just look at our last few years). Thankfully the owners saw sense and didn’t pull the trigger which would have ruined this season and probably next season too 
  • NabySarr said:
    As a club (and now as a fanbase) we needed to move on from being a club that sacks the manager at the first sign of poor form. Especially when you have got a good manager, which we do, you have to be patient and give them time to get out the other side of a poor run. Poor runs are going to happen, but if we sack the manager every time it does we won’t progress as you just end up back at square one each time (just look at our last few years). Thankfully the owners saw sense and didn’t pull the trigger which would have ruined this season and probably next season too 
    The problem is we have been sacking them for a while and it hasn't gone well.
  • Stig said:
    What a turnaround it’s been, hopefully the owners have seen enough to want to invest in the squad for the remainder of the transfer window and get us into the top 6.

    I doubt it, the view will almost certainly be that we are almost there and hope for the best.
    More reason to not spend any dough now we are within touching distance.
    Except that top six only earns the right to get onto the next stepping stone. Only one in four make it through the play-offs. It would be foolish to get to that stage but not maximise your chances of getting through as there are never any guarantees that you'll reach that level in subsequent years. I hope our owners understand that.
    all the spending in the world probably wouldn't get us top two, reckon they'll see how this season pans out and then if we didn't go up - hopefully back him properly in the Summer.


    also pigs might fly
  • I don't think Holden lost the dressing room. We often don't know and can only judge on performances where players may not look to be giving their all. I know Bowyer lost the dressing room at the end of his time as manager because I was aware of what happened after a certain game. Anyway there would have been reason to speculate earlier in the season, it is what us fans do, but there is no reason now.
    What happened after a certain game?
  • edited 12:23PM
    We are 16 games into the season, have yet to score more than two goals in a match and have failed to win a game once the opposition have scored. Yes, we've won five matches without the opposition scoring but unless you're a Burnley (conceded just six goals in 17 matches), you won't be in the promotion shake up at the end of the season playing that way. It seems that Jones is trying to make us resilient by sacrificing flair which has resulted in dire football. The fact that Louie Barry, on loan from Villa, has scored just four goals less for Stockport than we have as a team says it all but, equally, he would not have found the net 13 times (22 in 38 appearances in the last two seasons) given the way we play.

    The one seemingly surprising aspect of all of this is this is that Jones' early promotion sides were not that way inclined (Danny Hylton scored 21 goals in Jones' first season at the club albeit in League 2). Luton weren't promoted in his first season but the following year they were, finishing runners-up in scoring 94 goals. The very next season Luton made it back to back promotions although Jones left in the January to go to Stoke.  

    It is at Stoke that Jones' footballing philosophy appears to have changed. He lasted 10 months there with his side managing to win a very poor 6/38 matches and that included an unbeaten run of nine matches during which time they scored just five goals!!! He then went back to Luton where, in his first season, they finished 12th but scored less than a goal a game with just 41. In his second and only other full season second time round, Luton finished 6th but did so scoring  62 goals in 48 matches, losing in the two leg play-off to Huddersfield 2-1. 

    Jones left in November 2022 at which point Luton had managed 29 points in 20 games (1.45 points per game). It was under Rob Edwards that they were promoted, via the Play-Offs, having secured 51 points in 26 games (1.96 points per game) following Jones' departure. At Southampton Jones lasted just three months as they picked up 3/24 points during his tenure and scored just six goals in those eight matches and were relegated at the end of that season. 

    It appears that Jones in his second spell at Luton, then at Stoke and Southampton and now with us has tried to make his teams ones that don't concede, first and foremost. He wasn't given time to add a more attacking layer to that, if that was his intention in his last two jobs because those sides failed to keep clean sheets in the way that Parker has got Burnley to do. The debate is as to how long one allows things to carry on as they are but, with that constant revolving door of managers, perhaps we should take stock at the end of the season?
    So, we're 10 matches on since I posted this during which time we've picked up 21 points and the landscape looks a whole lot heathier. Yes NJ's tweaked things and he's been helped by players returning but that desire to not concede (take out the Rotherham game and it's 3 in 9 games) is still paramount, so much so that, on occasions, it can become over-powering and counter productive - such as keeping back all 11 when we concede a corner. What is clear is that the players have bought into his style and they all put in a shift although there are times when one or two are still not imposing themselves at certain times of the game. In the case of one of those I'm sure that it's just a learning curve and we witnessed the difference in the first half on Tuesday when he was rested.  

    However, most of all, I hope we can all now agree that the final question I posed in that post has been answered and that the time for reflection on his future comes after we've played 46 games although, hopefully, that will be 49 and culminating in a last match win!
  • edited 12:36PM
    He is coming up to his first year next week around the transfer deadline so be interesting to review this period, who is buying the cake?
  • Excellent post @th0rryy fair play, you're a better man than me.

    I was willing for us to be relegated just so that I could be right on Charlton Life.
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