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So what is the solution?

So we have the under 17s winning a championship, yet the national side bows out without a win (so far).
Germany play 8 players who have gone through the youth system, we have an injured Walcott.
When will the FA learn that it is not about the best individuals, but getting a team understanding.
Why should players who want to play for England decide whether or not they turn out for under 17/20/21s
Have a listen to this. 10 mins long, but would love to see him top of the FA ladder.

talksport.com/football/other-countries-must-look-england-and-laugh-stuart-pearces-damning-verdict-after-uruguay

Would Man Utd have had their recent golden years if the likes of Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Nevilles met 4 times a year?

Englands form has been based on defensive/midfield partnerships that have been formed on club level.

Pearce talks a lot of sense, have a listen.
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Comments

  • Within reason as long as we have a good season, stay up and hopefully play good football couldn't give a monkies. May sound harsh but charlton it is and will always be my concern.
  • edited June 2014
    Solution? Accept our position as second or third rate footballing nation, enjy our victories and be pleasantly surprised when we make it past the qualifiers. Look at fans of clubs like Japan and Australia. They have a great time. I'm so sick of seeing blubbing adults with white and red makeup all over their faces.




    No disrespect, like.
  • Thing is, we're no bigger and better than somewhere like Switzerland or Portugal in footballing terms, so like them we should be just aiming to qualify every tournament and hope to get through the group, anything else is a bonus. It may well be our national sport but is the national sport of over half the globe as well, and the sooner we realise we are an average national team the sooner everyone can enjoy our exploits.

    We're meant to be the underdogs, the plucky English taking on the behemoths of Football in Germany, Spain and Brazil, but instead we kid ourselves that we are on the same level as them, merely because our domestic clubs play our 'national heroes' alongside real world class players
  • I am resigned to the fact that I will never see England win another World Cup in my lifetime. Sad to say but true. It's not only talent but mental strength that we are lacking. Look at USA and Australia when they stick on those shirts they go out and give it a bloody good go. The mental lapses at the back by Cahill (twice) and Jagielka showed a lack of concentration which is inexcusable. Then again if Rooney's header didn't hit the bar and he put away his other chances we would have won so sometimes there is luck involved which we don't seem to get. Its bloody frustrating you wait 4 years and then we are done after 5 days. Embarassing if you ask me more than anything else.
  • I just can't honestly work out what we must fundamentally do wrong in this country.

    Despite the coach ratio thing, we have proper, organised football from 6 years old, solid aceademy development structure, huge resource and facilities, yet technically struggle against poor countries like Uraguay with a population of 3m

    I just don't get it
  • I just can't honestly work out what we must fundamentally do wrong in this country.

    Despite the coach ratio thing, we have proper, organised football from 6 years old, solid aceademy development structure, huge resource and facilities, yet technically struggle against poor countries like Uraguay with a population of 3m

    I just don't get it

    Perhaps we need to practice more on technique.Not enough time is spent in the formative years on passing and controlling the ball.
  • The U17s is very promising. But the simple thing is it is a numbers game. You need a system that provides as many potential top players as possible. The more of these there are, the more chance a few will turn out to be great players. Most will not, but the more lottery tickets you buy, the more chance you have. Kids develop at different rates and some of those U17s may end up having careers in League One - who and how many are behind them - kids that might push on. So the ones from the team who do push on can be joined by the others. That is how you get a great team.

    But coaching has to be strong across the country - and the dinosaurs that want to win and want an edge by inhibiting kid's skills, want to use attributes of bigger kids, play on pitches that are too big - they need converting or be kicked out of the game. Serously, lots of grass roots coaches hate proportional picthes!!! When they play on a full sized pitch with 12-13 year olds they are happy! This is true because I have seen it!
  • edited June 2014
    This article by Matt Hughes appeared in the Times this morning. I tend to agree with its central point which is that our players appear to lack the intelligence, maturity and tactical awareness to cope with tournament football. My take is that this is, in part, cultural and reflects the way the game is played in this country. It remains essentially laddish and gung-ho rather than being cerebral and disciplined. This works at Club level and produces wonderful entertainment, but in international tournaments our players become "fish out of water" and systematically fail to deliver.

    Here's the article,

    "Fabio Capello is not known for his lyrical and insightful use of English, but one of his observations about the national team struck a chord. “Lions in the autumn, lambs in the spring,” he said when asked to explain England’s recurrent failures.

    Although Capello’s emphasis on the gruelling effects of a Premier League season has some merit, there has been a deeper malaise at work in Brazil, as England’s players have appeared to morph into even less intimidating farmyard animals. For crucial periods of both defeats by Italy and Uruguay, they resembled headless chickens, or rabbits caught in the headlights.

    Steven Gerrard said as much on Thursday evening, conceding that England were naive and lacked the nous to respond to the changing game situation. Many of us are equally guilty of ignoring the mental side of the game, and the conversation soon moved on to more emotive topics, such as Gerrard’s feelings and international future.

    While these were perfectly valid lines of inquiry, he confirmed the impression of a sporting culture in which the mind is regarded as secondary to the heart, and of course the feet. This old-school attitude remains depressingly widespread, with some even arguing that the presence of Steve Peters, the psychiatrist, at the World Cup is a sign of weakness.

    Peters was brought in by Roy Hodgson to improve his players’ mental edge, but it was unrealistic to expect him to have a transformative effect in such a short period. What English players really need is a cultural revolution, in which the power of the brain is valued as much as the body.

    Having spent years lamenting the technical deficit between English and foreign players, which has shown signs of closing recently, an even bigger mental gap may have been ignored. Even in their better moments, England appeared to be playing off the cuff. Why do English players seemingly lack such basic skills?

    A big factor in this tournament is a lack of experience, for which Hodgson is culpable after assembling a squad in which only five players had played at a previous World Cup. He is also the victim of a systemic failure, however, as it is not just World Cup experience that his squad lacks. Very few of them have experience of any tournament football as a result of the disdain shown by Premier League clubs towards the international age-group competitions that take place every summer. This point has been laboured by the likes of Stuart Pearce, but remains pertinent.

    As England Under-21 manager, Pearce was furious at being denied the services of 17 players at the European Championship last summer, and returned to the theme yesterday, arguing convincingly that Luke Shaw would have gained more from playing in the under-20 tournament in Toulon last month than warming the bench in Brazil. As a result of being denied such experiences, England’s players do not develop skills that are vital in tournament football — managing yourself through several games against very different opponents in a congested period, assessing evolving match situations and knowing when to accept a draw or push for a win — shortcomings that have all proved costly, as Gerrard acknowledged.

    Though the pathway from age-group to senior international sides is clearly smoother elsewhere, even those who do make it to the top in this country are lacking in key areas. The tactical flexibility shown by many teams at this tournament, with many regularly switching formations during matches, is unheard of in England.

    The gung-ho nature of the Premier League does not help in the development of players with more cerebral qualities, but there are other problems. It sometimes feels as if tactics are a dirty word in English football, with journalists often scorned by managers for asking about tactical issues. When a Premier League manager such as Tim Sherwood says he does not study formations and simply sends 11 players out on to the pitch, it is no wonder the English game is lacking.

    This environment is not conducive to the production of thinking footballers, and it is instructive that even the most talented players who have emerged in recent years largely rely on physical virtues or their individuality. Such qualities are invaluable, of course, but it feels increasingly that England’s players and coaches should be sent back to school. And not to read Animal Farm."
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  • edited June 2014
    I agree. It does seem ridiculous that Man City our champions have only provided 2 of the squad. Somehow a ruling that you need so many British players in your matchday squad has to take effect. The premium you pay for English players is huge, Luke Shaw for example? Look at Jenkinson at Arsenal? He has played for England and if he played more matches could be better than Johnson. But a French right back blocked his path and no doubt they will buy again to replace Sagna. Even our own case of Grady is depressing, a journeyman striker wants higher wages than an Angolan striker. Same problem with managers. Am I correct Pardew is still the highest ranked English manager? Money has created an excellent Premiership with some great players but so few are English. If players are not given a chance how can they develop?
  • Much of it is mental rather than physical.

    Motivation specifically. In other countries representing your country is seen as a pinnacle and honour. In England it is a chore. Until that attitude changes and players have the genuine pride in the three lions of the distant past nothing will change.

    Gerrard, for all his crocodile tears now because he doesn't want to be slaughtered in the press, is a good example of the modern English player more concerned about his pay packet rather than representing his country on the international stage.
  • Team work ethic and tactics, take Costa Rica no real so called superstars most would struggle to get into a top english, german, spanish side but yet the whole team works together, everyone knows their roles and they all play in the correct positions.
  • I think the 'they only care about how much money they earn' argument is crap and a massive cop out.

    It's more that representing England simply doesn't get the juices running of most players. Suarez played a "gruelling" Premiership season, had a knee operation yet still showed more on one and a half legs than most of the England team obnoxious little git that he is!

    Why is that? It has to be motivation. What else can it be?
  • edited June 2014
    LenGlover said:

    I think the 'they only care about how much money they earn' argument is crap and a massive cop out.

    It's more that representing England simply doesn't get the juices running of most players. Suarez played a "gruelling" Premiership season, had a knee operation yet still showed more on one and a half legs than most of the England team obnoxious little git that he is!

    Why is that? It has to be motivation. What else can it be?
    doesn't get the juices running?? One of the things this set of players can't be accused of is lack of effort. If chances were taken and errors cut, then we wouldn't even be having these debates and a second week at the World Cup would be looming.

    Suarez took both goals superbly, but one was on a plate and the other from a defensive error.He hardly run us ragged for 90 minutes . He us a world class striker and they make a difference with the opportunities that come there way.

    We simply don't have a world class player.
  • Tournament football - you have to pick the best team which works together - not the best individuals - we have the players but have not got a coach who will say bollocks ill do it my way ie Rooney nightmare first half against italy who should of been hauled off and replaced with someone better suited to that role.
  • LenGlover said:

    Much of it is mental rather than physical.

    Motivation specifically. In other countries representing your country is seen as a pinnacle and honour. In England it is a chore. Until that attitude changes and players have the genuine pride in the three lions of the distant past nothing will change.

    Gerrard, for all his crocodile tears now because he doesn't want to be slaughtered in the press, is a good example of the modern English player more concerned about his pay packet rather than representing his country on the international stage.

    Have to agree with that, Len & the "mental rather than physical" aspect brings to mind one individual in particular...

    One who works as much with players' "heads" as with their ball skills.

    Just ask Callum Harriott.

  • edited June 2014
    In the long term we should be closely studying the Northern European international successes such as Holland and Germany. Their historical football culture is similar to ours yet they've moved on and consistently produced world class talent out of all proportion to us. Also when you look at the intensity that the German team can play at you realise that we can't even compete in terms of work rate which is embarrassing as it used to be our strength. The depressing thing is that someone will open up this thread in a few years and nothing will have changed.
  • Im not really sure, this does makes me wish i had a connection to a smaller nation in world football, would be nice to go in to a world cup with the attitude of lets just have a go.

    Maybe we as fans & media do need to adjust our attitude that we are simply not a top international side, just try to enjoy it.

    Less pressure on the players that way too.
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  • Im not really sure, this does makes me wish i had a connection to a smaller nation in world football, would be nice to go in to a world cup with the attitude of lets just have a go.

    Maybe we as fans & media do need to adjust our attitude that we are simply not a top international side, just try to enjoy it.

    Less pressure on the players that way too.

    yep, the pressure from the fans and media is not a help either.
  • Dunno what the solution is but good use of the 'troubleshooting' category all the same...
  • Spreading the cash would help.
    The premier league takes all the cash and starves grass roots football.
    The FA spend too much on big salaries and white elephant projects.

  • edited June 2014
    Other nations have a few major teams where talent is exclusively raised and developed.

    Sad but true.

    For example, every single one of Holland's players in their squad have been at Ajax, PSV or Feyenoord before the age of 23.
  • I think that the first thing you have to before finding the solution is figure out what the problem is.

    Not performing well at the World Cup and Euros is the SYMPTOM not the PROBLEM

    One of the problems is that some of us still believe that somehow if we worked harder, cared more, sung the national anthem louder, etc etc that would make the players better players or the team better tactically. It wont.

    So many non English players in the premiership is also a SYMPTOM not the PROBLEM.

    Good English players can and do play at the top of the league. Banning all or limiting non-English players won't make average players better. There are plenty of non-nationals in the Spanish, Italian and German leagues.

    We can compete at U17 level and that can't just be down to physical strength. Other teams are as big as us but we still win and get the finals of those tournaments.

    Personally I think that we have an attitude in football and in work generally that learning beyond school age isn't something to be praised or encouraged too much. There are still regular derogatory remarks on here and elsewhere about coaches doing their badges for example. Somehow doing badges is not seen as a good thing by some but as a dilution of "raw" talent and creativity.

    By 18 players are meant to be ready to go and the priority is Club football. Going to U21 tournaments is a waste of time and we (fans, clubs, players) don't take these tournaments seriously or see them as a necessary and very important step in a continuing learning process. Go back and look at the threads from the last U21 tournaments and see. Or listen to the Stuart Pearce piece at the top of the thread.

    So we have players and even some coaches who don't value learning and tactics very highly or at least not as much as they do abroad. Maybe that goes back to the youth academies but the "get stuck in, stop fannying about, passing the ball and retaining possession is boring" mindset is still strong in our game.

    So we have good players with technical skills but at crucial time in their development as people and players (18 to 23) we as a game stop seeing them as learners. We want them to be 100% ready by that age or else we bin them. Look at Sturridge's career path from City to Chelsea and Liverpool. Only now are we seeing him as top premiership player and England international. Before that he was regarded as a flop. And his age? 24.


    . Yes we can coach better at all levels

    . Yes we need more and better trained coaches

    . Yes we have to stop the premier league club running youth football for themselves

    . Yes we have to revamp EPPP so that small clubs get paid to run academies. The FA should be giving grants to the likes of Exeter or Crewe of £2m a year and saying "spend that on youth development only and if you produce a star then a big club has to pay you a decent fee" ie not the £400k that Charlton will get for Poyet if he does leave.

    But we also have to stop

    . Blaming it all on foreigners.

    . Asking for more "passion"

    . Blaming the manager. So many successful managers suddenly seem to turn into clueless clowns when managing England. Or is it that no matter how good they are they can't overcome the inherent problems in the England set up.

    We have to start

    . Getting young English players and coaches to leave England and learn more about football around the world.

    . Value coaches and coaching for adults

    . Take tournaments for U21s etc very seriously. If you are called up you go. No league games or pre-season friendlies instead.

    . Realise it will take years, maybe decades, not weeks


    Very well put.

    To me it's all about the quality of player, and much as we like to blame the Premier League - with good reason - the simple truth is that any club would play English players if they were better than the foreign ones. Liverpool have a selection of the best English players, after all. They're not playing them for the good of the English game, they're playing them for the good of Liverpool.

    I'm more and more persuaded that what's happened in Belgium is what's needed here. They recognised they were overemphasising systems over ability on the ball and started to address that at all levels. One simple thing they did was play 433 so that players were encouraged to run with the ball, take on opponents etc. Look at the players they're producing now.

    Root and branch reform at the very youngest levels is needed. EPPP is a step, albeit imperfect whilst clubs want to stockpile players. St George's Park is another. More game time for English players will only be consistently achieved if English players are the best players - and isn't that how we want it?
  • edited June 2014

    I just can't honestly work out what we must fundamentally do wrong in this country.

    Despite the coach ratio thing, we have proper, organised football from 6 years old, solid aceademy development structure, huge resource and facilities, yet technically struggle against poor countries like Uraguay with a population of 3m

    I just don't get it


    A little anecdote from my past might help you.
    Some years ago i took my son with his team when he was 11 to a tournament in France.
    When we arrived at the tournament, we noticed the French kids were training ACROSS the pitch with 7 a-sides and small goals.
    Some 2 weeks after returning, my sons coach came up to me with a petition asking me to sign - 'Whats this for?' I said ' Oh, its a directive from the London FA advising us that we have to play across the pitch and with small goals - well, we're not having that - we have always played on the big pitch with pwopa size goals - we intend to fight it' - i refused to sign it , he got very irate with me and started to deride me amongst his peers (he was a spanner btw).
    Does this help you understand where the root of our problems lie?

    Now, this was a few years ago and things may well have changed - but essentially what i am getting at is the general intellectual level of people at the roots of the game in comparison with other countries.
  • I just can't honestly work out what we must fundamentally do wrong in this country.

    Despite the coach ratio thing, we have proper, organised football from 6 years old, solid aceademy development structure, huge resource and facilities, yet technically struggle against poor countries like Uraguay with a population of 3m

    I just don't get it


    A little anecdote from my past might help you.
    Some years ago i took my son with his team when he was 11 to a tournament in France.
    When we arrived at the tournament, we noticed the French kids were training ACROSS the pitch with 7 a-sides and small goals.
    Some 2 weeks after returning, my sons coach came up to me with a petition asking me to sign - 'Whats this for?' I said ' Oh, its a directive from the London FA advising us that we have to play across the pitch and with small goals - well, we're not having that - we have always played on the big pitch with pwopa size goals - we intend to fight it' - i refused to sign it , he got very irate with me and started to deride me amongst his peers (he was a spanner btw).
    Does this help you understand where the root of our problems lie?

    Now, this was a few years ago and things may well have changed - but essentially what i am getting at is the general intellectual level of people at the roots of the game in comparison with other countries.
    And add to this coaches and parents that think it's more important for 7-year-olds to be winning at all costs rather than developing as footballers.
  • I just can't honestly work out what we must fundamentally do wrong in this country.

    Despite the coach ratio thing, we have proper, organised football from 6 years old, solid aceademy development structure, huge resource and facilities, yet technically struggle against poor countries like Uraguay with a population of 3m

    I just don't get it


    A little anecdote from my past might help you.
    Some years ago i took my son with his team when he was 11 to a tournament in France.
    When we arrived at the tournament, we noticed the French kids were training ACROSS the pitch with 7 a-sides and small goals.
    Some 2 weeks after returning, my sons coach came up to me with a petition asking me to sign - 'Whats this for?' I said ' Oh, its a directive from the London FA advising us that we have to play across the pitch and with small goals - well, we're not having that - we have always played on the big pitch with pwopa size goals - we intend to fight it' - i refused to sign it , he got very irate with me and started to deride me amongst his peers (he was a spanner btw).
    Does this help you understand where the root of our problems lie?

    Now, this was a few years ago and things may well have changed - but essentially what i am getting at is the general intellectual level of people at the roots of the game in comparison with other countries.
    a few years back when we played Sunderland in the FA Youth QF at The Valley , I decided to sit directly behind the Sunderland bench to hear what things they were saying - well, that was an eye-opener (on maybe ear-opener) , let me tell you, I never knew you could cram so many swear words into one sentence , but Kevin Ball managed to ! - it was the other end of the spectrum from the coaching master-class that i thought i might get !
    It was truly dreadful and made me despair about the coaching quality in this country.
  • Danny Mills,astonishingly part of the FA commission, has his say:-

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27960739
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