The General Election - June 8th 2017
Comments
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First of all, I wasn't claiming that all people to the left are like that, I was just saying they are more likely to be. Some of the posters to the left on here put forward very good balanced points and will actually critique the labour party whereas some will just completely defend or block out criticism, a lot like leading politicians have to do. Never accept criticism, always deflect onto the other party. We are citizens not politicians and don't have to do this.Cordoban Addick said:
I think most of 'the left' just started out as anti-Tories but came over to Labour as they had an excellent centre left/social democratic manifesto. You don't like that, I get it. A bit hypocritical to talk about buying votes as isn't that what every manifesto seeks to do, you only have to look at the Brexit referendum which will cost us far more than teh Labour manifesto ever will.Huskaris said:
To quote many post Brexit vote, they didn't really understand what they were voting for.kings hill addick said:I have a theory that expanding the number of students in higher education was done to get the extra students off the unemployed stats.
Sure many of those that go (that wouldn't have done so twenty years ago) are not completely useless but the jobs they would have taken were given to someone else.
If we assume that the estimated extra two million students, on the basis that we don't seem to have two million jobs going begging, would have increased the unemployed numbers, it's a genius plan. This plan became even more genius when those students were told that one day they'd have to pay for the three year party they get.
I wonder why so many of them voted Labour when they thought they were in for c. £25k worth of debt wiped off.
There is an estimated 1.75m students (undergraduates) in the UK. That constitutes 13.5% of the total Labour vote, and at c. £25k each would cost the taxpayer, on paper, £43.75 billion. This is, of course, assuming that there wouldn't have been a u-turn if Labour had won - you know like the Lib Dems who changed their minds when they got into government.
(said tongue in cheek, unlike some on here I actually love democracy)
Corbyns politics are unbelievably popular because for the vast majority of people, they won't pay more but they will get more. What's not to like?
I would have had my student debt wiped off if Labour had won (I think?) But that wouldn't be enough to tempt me to vote Labour. I was too won over by the Conservative policies to privatise and destroy the NHS, melt poor people for glue, and deport all foreigners.
The problem with politics and society in general is that things are always black and white for some people, never a shade of grey, which in reality everything is.
The "black and white" viewers on here tend to be Labour voters, some of the things I have seen posted on here have been completely ridiculous, and as for the economic arguments that have been posted as fact, well, they shouldn't give up their day jobs.
Please, please, please, stop viewing a political party as a football team, a tribal war, and start understanding that you can and should criticise and scrutinise the party you support.
You follow with a sweeping generalisation of the people on this discussion who are politically to the left of you, who in your mind only see things in black and white, isn't that a case of you seeing things perhaps a little bit too black and white. Perhaps you can tell me how your views and opinions have been changed by events and experience?
Finally, yes you are right people should criticise and scrutinise the party they support. I look forward to you taking the lead on this with a well thought out critique on whatever party you support.
This leads on to your comment on how my opinion have changed and a well thought out critique on the party I support (in this election) which is something I have done throughout this campaign in person and on here after the election/on election day. I left politics threads alone for a lot of the campaign for the reasons stated above, it's just not what I'm used to with people I discuss politics with, most of whom are to the left, but will always accept a good point and aren't dogmatic. On here I have to say that with some criticising the Labour party is a lot like criticising someone's religion. It won't get through. The same thing applies to some on the right but I would say that the proportion is a lot lower.
I voted Conservative in this election. Their campaign was terrible, calling the election was unnecessary and Theresa May went from being a very very credible candidate (my opinion which I'm allowed thank you :-) ) to a very weak one. Before we even got to the election there was talk of her being overthrown in certain circumstances, circumstances better than what happened as well! They included things in their manifesto that they didn't need to, and shouldn't have, and they left out things that should have been in there. Caroline Lucas had my favourite line of the entire campaign she said in the leadership debates "the first rule of being a leader is that you actually show up" which was completely brilliant and correct. Quite simply they threw it all away.
It's not a case of blindly supporting a party, you have to criticise both the party you support and the parties you don't. Like I have said previously I lend a party my vote, I don't blindly follow one. I would have voted labour in 1997 but I was 6, I would probably have voted for Alan Johnson if he had run for PM at any point, and I could have seen myself voting for David Milliband in 2015.
For many, they need validation for their views, and that comes by doggedly attacking the opposition. I think I previously posted that it's somewhat logical because some of the left tend to genuinely believe the Conservatives are evil, so I can somewhat understand the way they act, but like I said, it isn't good for democracy in the UK to view any post on here by someone who has a differing political view with a closed mind, wanting to teat apart what they say without conceding that your "team" might have weaknesses. Like I've said before, if people are unwilling to criticise or accept criticism of their team then there is no point discussing politics.2 -
You two cult followers are not paying attention, please keep on message and stop rambling and plagiarising, you're not at university now.
To summarise the message i am getting from the cult mantras is that when you take over you will remove the source of all our problems by abolishing profits, banks, poor people and rich people and run the economy by planting orchards of money trees.
To be absolutely fair, I think there will be a healthy shake up of the political class of all colours as a result of this election, which is what I think voters are demanding. Where i part company is any idea that Corbyn is anything other than a chancer. He has the ability to stimulate the debate as a prelude to finding solutions, but no credible policies that resolve the underlying problems.
His scapegoating the rich and accusing the rich of scapegoating the poor ,as aped by posters on here, does nothing but create the us and them divisions and siege mentality that is needed to support a cult.
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If you're going to (falsely) accuse others of plagiarising, you might want to avoid stealing Tory mantras such as 'money trees'.Dippenhall said:You two cult followers are not paying attention, please keep on message and stop rambling and plagiarising, you're not at university now.
To summarise the message i am getting from the cult mantras is that when you take over you will remove the source of all our problems by abolishing profits, banks, poor people and rich people and run the economy by planting orchards of money trees.
To be absolutely fair, I think there will be a healthy shake up of the political class of all colours as a result of this election, which is what I think voters are demanding. Where i part company is any idea that Corbyn is anything other than a chancer. He has the ability to stimulate the debate as a prelude to finding solutions, but no credible policies that resolve the underlying problems.
His scapegoating the rich and accusing the rich of scapegoating the poor ,as aped by posters on here, does nothing but create the us and them divisions and siege mentality that is needed to support a cult.4 -
I know three things of which I am sure of. There are many decent Tories who I greatly respect, Austerity is evil and all the more so because it is economically bankrupt and finally Corbyn is a great man. A differnt leader - A compassionate and caring person who only looks massively to the left because this country has moved so far to the right. For me he is a social democrat.
My mother reminded me the other day as I gave her a Corbyn Hope T-shirt, that when she spoke up for him I would attack him. And this was only a couple of months ago. I coudn't undertsand why this man wanted to destroy the Labour party. I believed all the rubbish - well maybe not all of it but the sentiment of it - that the media promoted about him. The election forced me to dig under the surface and listening to past speeches online, rather than hear the person I thought he was, I heard a person who touched me. I had to ask myself why I opposed this man who was saying things that I knew were right. Then I made a massive leap and understood.
I have always been cynical about political leaders - I was happy New Labour won under Blair but never trusted him and I feel I was right not to trust him. I trust Corbyn and from disliking the guy (irationally) and being frustrated with him, I would now follow him barefoot over broken glass. I say that because it is true and it does freak me out a bit on one level. It does feel a bit strange, because whilst I have always been a advocate of social justice, I have never felt so moved and engaged by a leader. The thing is, I am not alone in feeling this.1 -
@Huskaris
I don't want to give you too much of a hard time because a lot of what you are saying above is reasonable, even if I cannot agree with your central assertion that left-leaning posters on here are more reasonable than right -leaning.
I must though pick you up on this:
as for the economic arguments that have been posted as fact, well, they shouldn't give up their day jobs..
That is out of order. The key is the word "facts". If you believe people have not posted "facts" to support their arguments, you cannot criticise them without posting your own...err...alternative facts.
I have pointed out that in Q1/17 the UK economy appeared to de-couple from the Eurozone with growth dropping to 0.2%, and even Greece growing more quickly. This week we learnt that inflation rose to 2.9%, making it three times as much as the top bank savings deposit. These are facts. I used them to make two assertions which are fundamental to the current discourse:
1. These are the first signs that the economic warnings of Remainers are coming to pass, and exactly at the time I expected and forecast (summer 2017 at the earliest).
2. The Tories' spending commitments were to be funded by "economic growth". Growth is faltering, and therefore may undershoot Govt forecasts. That means Tory funding commitments are in fact unfunded. More cuts will be the result. This is all a result of the Tory party being captured by the ultra Brexit nutters.
You may disagree with point 2, since you voted Tory. Fine, take me on then. But my economic facts above are indisputable so if you want to challenge my assertions you need some other facts of your own. Bring 'em on.....1 -
OK I am back to thinking you need help.Rob7Lee said:Cordoban Addick said:We on the left 'own' our helplessness, in fact it defines us.
Margaret Moran. You'll be quoting Mr Miyagi soon.0 -
when is the next general election?2
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Well this is how the betting odds are going:palarsehater said:when is the next general election?
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/year-of-next-general-election
I'm not sure I understand the 'or later' option in "2022 or Later".......1 -
I am no particular fan of Farron but am I alone in being concerned that the right of a politician to vote with his or her conscience appears to have been removed effectively?
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I don't think it's been removed, but they will certainly be judged on the conscience, what else can we expect?LenGlover said:I am no particular fan of Farron but am I alone in being concerned that the right of a politician to vote with his or her conscience appears to have been removed effectively?
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He hasn't resigned as an MP, only as LibDem leader. He is free to vote with his conscience as an MP, but it is slightly problematic holding certain views if they are incompatible with the fundamental principles of the party you are supposed to be leading. It'd be like a Labour leader wanting to abolish trade unions.LenGlover said:I am no particular fan of Farron but am I alone in being concerned that the right of a politician to vote with his or her conscience appears to have been removed effectively?
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Logged on and saw another half dozen pages of this thread and wondered what had happened.
Then I saw that @seriously_red had quoted and replied to @Dippenhall post!! 3 -
No it hasn't. The "right" to hold views and expect them not to be challenged because he is follower of a particular religion hasLenGlover said:I am no particular fan of Farron but am I alone in being concerned that the right of a politician to vote with his or her conscience appears to have been removed effectively?
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https://www.spectator.co.uk/general-election-2017/#
Rod Liddle on why there has been no attempt by the Tories to blame fake news or the Russians for the election result.1 -
"Austerity is evil"
That's right, haven't been able to buy sweeties for a week. Or like when Labour introduced tuition fees because they ran out of money to pay the cost of running the Universities. Evil bastards.
Should not have been so evil, they should have just borrowed the money and let the students, and everyone else, pay the loan interest out of their taxes later on. Would also have duped students into thinking they got free education.
I say use our taxes to subsidise the exceptionally intelligent in society so they can earn a 2:1 in needlework to qualify for a job in MacDonalds, better than wasting it on paying nurses.
Intelligent Labour University voters are suggesting that we look at the exceptional post war borrowing level as an example of how to avoid austerity. Those less intelligent old non-University Tory voters are stupidly pointing out that post war austerity went hand in hand with debt at 230% of GDP.
How can intelligent University educated Labour voters miss the fact that we had austerity whilst we also had high debt and that austerity diminished in parallel with reducing national debt from 230% to 70% between 1948 and 1970 - couldn't happen.
"Austerity is evil". It must be true, our leader says so, we can borrow all the money we want, we can take all the money we want from others, and we can have anything we want for ourselves.
Those Blairite/capitalist/banker friendly/tax avoiding rich austerity loving evil Tory bastards are pretending there isn't a santa clause and a tooth fairy so they can say there isn't a magic money tree. We know they've got one and we're going to find it and we'll see who's laughing at us then.
Nurse.....
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Austerity is evil.3
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World War 3 begins in 2019 postponing the next general election until 2025 when Kim Jong-un wins with a landslide 99.9% of the vote.micks1950 said:
Well this is how the betting odds are going:palarsehater said:when is the next general election?
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/year-of-next-general-election
I'm not sure I understand the 'or later' option in "2022 or Later".......0 -
You'll have to wait your turnDippenhall said:
Nurse.....
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I knew you'd see sense eventually.Dippenhall said:"Austerity is evil"
That's right, haven't been able to buy sweeties for a week. Or like when Labour introduced tuition fees because they ran out of money to pay the cost of running the Universities. Evil bastards.
Should not have been so evil, they should have just borrowed the money and let the students, and everyone else, pay the loan interest out of their taxes later on. Would also have duped students into thinking they got free education.
I say use our taxes to subsidise the exceptionally intelligent in society so they can earn a 2:1 in needlework to qualify for a job in MacDonalds, better than wasting it on paying nurses.
Intelligent Labour University voters are suggesting that we look at the exceptional post war borrowing level as an example of how to avoid austerity. Those less intelligent old non-University Tory voters are stupidly pointing out that post war austerity went hand in hand with debt at 230% of GDP.
How can intelligent University educated Labour voters miss the fact that we had austerity whilst we also had high debt and that austerity diminished in parallel with reducing national debt from 230% to 70% between 1948 and 1970 - couldn't happen.
"Austerity is evil". It must be true, our leader says so, we can borrow all the money we want, we can take all the money we want from others, and we can have anything we want for ourselves.
Those Blairite/capitalist/banker friendly/tax avoiding rich austerity loving evil Tory bastards are pretending there isn't a santa clause and a tooth fairy so they can say there isn't a magic money tree. We know they've got one and we're going to find it and we'll see who's laughing at us then.
Nurse.....2 -
Would you like some salt to go with that chip on your shoulder?Dippenhall said:"Austerity is evil"
That's right, haven't been able to buy sweeties for a week. Or like when Labour introduced tuition fees because they ran out of money to pay the cost of running the Universities. Evil bastards.
Should not have been so evil, they should have just borrowed the money and let the students, and everyone else, pay the loan interest out of their taxes later on. Would also have duped students into thinking they got free education.
I say use our taxes to subsidise the exceptionally intelligent in society so they can earn a 2:1 in needlework to qualify for a job in MacDonalds, better than wasting it on paying nurses.
Intelligent Labour University voters are suggesting that we look at the exceptional post war borrowing level as an example of how to avoid austerity. Those less intelligent old non-University Tory voters are stupidly pointing out that post war austerity went hand in hand with debt at 230% of GDP.
How can intelligent University educated Labour voters miss the fact that we had austerity whilst we also had high debt and that austerity diminished in parallel with reducing national debt from 230% to 70% between 1948 and 1970 - couldn't happen.
"Austerity is evil". It must be true, our leader says so, we can borrow all the money we want, we can take all the money we want from others, and we can have anything we want for ourselves.
Those Blairite/capitalist/banker friendly/tax avoiding rich austerity loving evil Tory bastards are pretending there isn't a santa clause and a tooth fairy so they can say there isn't a magic money tree. We know they've got one and we're going to find it and we'll see who's laughing at us then.
Nurse.....
By the way, you might think that taking a political view you disagree with, turning it into a strawman and then ramping it so far into hyperbole it is no longer recognisable from the original point is a valid method of denouncing a view but all you are doing is looking more and more deranged.
Nothing in your previous few posts has had any bearing on reality whatsoever and your repeated use of the Tory phrase 'magic money tree' only further cements your reputation as someone with little regard for facts and prefers fiction and hyperbole.4 - Sponsored links:
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https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/where-are-the-right-wing-masses-demanding-a-second-election/Southbank said:https://www.spectator.co.uk/general-election-2017/#
Rod Liddle on why there has been no attempt by the Tories to blame fake news or the Russians for the election result.
Sorry wrong link first time4 -
There is a lot of discussion and lack of understanding, as to how young muslim men are brainwashed by the internet.MuttleyCAFC said:
My mother reminded me the other day as I gave her a Corbyn Hope T-shirt, that when she spoke up for him I would attack him. And this was only a couple of months ago. I coudn't undertsand why this man wanted to destroy the Labour party. I believed all the rubbish - well maybe not all of it but the sentiment of it - that the media promoted about him. The election forced me to dig under the surface and listening to past speeches online, rather than hear the person I thought he was, I heard a person who touched me. I had to ask myself why I opposed this man who was saying things that I knew were right. Then I made a massive leap and understood.
I have always been cynical about political leaders - I was happy New Labour won under Blair but never trusted him and I feel I was right not to trust him. I trust Corbyn and from disliking the guy (irationally) and being frustrated with him, I would now follow him barefoot over broken glass. I say that because it is true and it does freak me out a bit on one level. It does feel a bit strange, because whilst I have always been a advocate of social justice, I have never felt so moved and engaged by a leader. The thing is, I am not alone in feeling this.
Yet, here we have a middle aged man who has watched the internet and in a couple of months, gone from "attacking" Corbyn to be willing to follow him barefoot over broken glass.3 -
I know how it sounds, but it is true. My posts on here will back that conversion up. I have not become a fanatic though - he has simply inspired me.2
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Hooray. If semi-intelligent journalists keep labeling people in this way we can ensure our country remains divided on every issue for the next decade as well.Southbank said:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/where-are-the-right-wing-masses-demanding-a-second-election/Southbank said:https://www.spectator.co.uk/general-election-2017/#
Rod Liddle on why there has been no attempt by the Tories to blame fake news or the Russians for the election result.
Sorry wrong link first time2 -
I know it's true and with the greatest respect you sound fanatical to me (which is fine).MuttleyCAFC said:I know how it sounds, but it is true. My posts on here will back that conversion up. I have not become a fanatic though - he has simply inspired me.
You're posting your "love" for Corbyn all day every day.
It's quite simply amazing.
I can't recall such a u-turn on here by someone, although Fiish runs you a close second 3 -
And what about the poor soul on here who is labelling everyone who didn't vote Tory a cultist?Covered End said:
I know it's true and with the greatest respect you sound fanatical to me (which is fine).MuttleyCAFC said:I know how it sounds, but it is true. My posts on here will back that conversion up. I have not become a fanatic though - he has simply inspired me.
You're posting your "love" for Corbyn all day every day.
It's quite simply amazing.2 -
I find it more fanatical how somebody can support this divisive government who have no interest in a fair society. May be unfair, but just as unfair as your comment. The fanatics that blight our lives believe in something without a reason.1
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He's not had a u-turn as far as I'm aware.Fiiish said:
And what about the poor soul on here who is labelling everyone who didn't vote Tory a cultist?Covered End said:
I know it's true and with the greatest respect you sound fanatical to me (which is fine).MuttleyCAFC said:I know how it sounds, but it is true. My posts on here will back that conversion up. I have not become a fanatic though - he has simply inspired me.
You're posting your "love" for Corbyn all day every day.
It's quite simply amazing.2 -
I think we are allowed U-turns - when you are going in the wrong direction, they are usually the best idea.4
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That ought to wind up the libtardsCallumcafc said:In other news, Anne Marie Waters is running for the UKIP leadership...
Never heard of her? She's written for Breitbart.
Very charitable to Liddle thereJollyRobin said:
Hooray. If semi-intelligent journalists keep labeling people in this way we can ensure our country remains divided on every issue for the next decade as well.Southbank said:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/where-are-the-right-wing-masses-demanding-a-second-election/Southbank said:https://www.spectator.co.uk/general-election-2017/#
Rod Liddle on why there has been no attempt by the Tories to blame fake news or the Russians for the election result.
Sorry wrong link first time5
