Bowyer Has Never Apologised For Racism Says Supporters Trust Chairman
Comments
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I am Richard Wiseman and I have just read through the comments above.
The comments which are critical of my answer are fully justified. Even though I would have liked Lee Bowyer at some point to have said something which distanced himself from his earlier actions and attitudes, having re-read my answer I can see that it was unnecessarily judgemental (and a bit pompous) on my part to make that point in this interview. I fully accept that we all do stuff in our youth that we later regret and that this doesn't have to be demonstrated through words, but can be demonstrated through actions, which is what Lee has done.
Please let me stress that this was not a CAST opinion and any anger or disappointment about my comment should be directed at me not CAST.66 -
The article cites him as CAST chairman which by default to readers implies he is speaking as a representative of the Charlton fan base.rikofold said:People making public statements are open to criticism and it's perfectly valid to form a view on the statement.
It isn't at all valid to slag Richard in the way some have done on here. He's a top bloke, one of the nicest fellas you'll ever meet and - even as Trust chair - is entitled to an opinion. I imagine there's been some editing that hasn't been kind, but even if not I don't see he's intending to speak for the Trust or its members.
What he says may be accurate. Bowyer may of course consider that he has nothing to apologise for - after all, that was his beef with Leeds - and perhaps Richard might have been more politic given the timing.
But I can't accept the insults aimed at him - way way off the mark.
Thankfully he is not but that is the impression and the likely reason he was invited for the interview as opposed to Joe Bloggs Charlton supporter.
Making an implicit comment about our manager in relation to racism whilst immediately juxtaposing it with a reference to a black manager alludes to a curious mindset about the issue.
It will only serve to further alienate supporters from an unrepresentative trust and offer credibility to the assumption it is exploited as a platform for ego- driven agendas for their version of what Charlton ought be as opposed to its implied remit of representing the best interests of the wider Charlton supporter base.
No need for vitriol or personal attacks I agree but the disparaging comments against Bowyer seem entirely out of context and unnecessary here.
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Beside taking into consideration what links the average reader may make between your views and being the chairman of the trust, for me a bigger consideration is the future relationship between CAST and the manager of our football club. I don't see how Lee can read this and his opinion about CAST not be affected.Pico said:I am Richard Wiseman and I have just read through the comments above.
The comments which are critical of my answer are fully justified. Even though I would have liked Lee Bowyer at some point to have said something which distanced himself from his earlier actions and attitudes, having re-read my answer I can see that it was unnecessarily judgemental (and a bit pompous) on my part to make that point in this interview. I fully accept that we all do stuff in our youth that we later regret and that this doesn't have to be demonstrated through words, but can be demonstrated through actions, which is what Lee has done.
Please let me stress that this was not a CAST opinion and any anger or disappointment about my comment should be directed at me not CAST.10 -
The Trust represents fans views by surveying them and publishing them including opposing viewpoints. Amazing some still people still don’t understand that. If people can suggest a better way of doing that please do, and stand for the TB - but I make you wrong in saying it’s unrepresentative for that reason.
Some of you above clearly formed an opinion about the organisation and its merits way way back, good luck to you but no surprise when you find another excuse to bash it.
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Surely criticism from lifelong Charlton fans against an institution purporting to represent them can be valid without pulling out the strawman "do it better yourself then" argument and fair when such a statement is made by the chairman.razil said:The Trust represents fans views by surveying them and publishing them including opposing viewpoints. Amazing some still people still don’t understand that. If people can suggest a better way of doing that please do, and stand for the TB - but I make you wrong in saying it’s unrepresentative for that reason.
Some of you above clearly formed an opinion about the organisation and its merits way way back, good luck to you but no surprise when you find another excuse to bash it.
As I posted earlier we appear to do the complete opposite of siege mentality at Charlton. Eve of potentially toughest season in last 20 years, club in disarray and the supporters trust chairman is bringing up racism and race issues about our current and former manager in interviews with our next opponent.
Regardless of whether there is a place for that conversation it certainly isn't in that forum and context surely.20 -
Actions always speak louder than words. Lee's wrong life decisions were a long time ago and your decision to slur him much more recent. At least you are apologising, which is the only thing you should do. Lee Bowyer doesn't have to distance himself by words but through his actions, which I think he has done. I do not believe he is a racist and from what you have said, nor do you.Pico said:I am Richard Wiseman and I have just read through the comments above.
The comments which are critical of my answer are fully justified. Even though I would have liked Lee Bowyer at some point to have said something which distanced himself from his earlier actions and attitudes, having re-read my answer I can see that it was unnecessarily judgemental (and a bit pompous) on my part to make that point in this interview. I fully accept that we all do stuff in our youth that we later regret and that this doesn't have to be demonstrated through words, but can be demonstrated through actions, which is what Lee has done.
Please let me stress that this was not a CAST opinion and any anger or disappointment about my comment should be directed at me not CAST.
We can all say something we regret in the moment. I am not a member of CAST but I think you should consider your position within it and try to limit the possible damage.6 -
Extremely disappointing to read that Richard.
Bowyer deserves better than that, I would have expected a Palace or Millwall fan to make those kind of comments not one of our own! Not even prompted by the question either which makes it all the more embarrassing to read and the view accepted as one of representing our fans when the Sunderland fans read that.
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That’s not true at allrazil said:The Trust represents fans views by surveying them and publishing them including opposing viewpoints. Amazing some still people still don’t understand that. If people can suggest a better way of doing that please do, and stand for the TB - but I make you wrong in saying it’s unrepresentative for that reason.
Some of you above clearly formed an opinion about the organisation and its merits way way back, good luck to you but no surprise when you find another excuse to bash it.
If anyone associated with the CAST is asked to do any interviews and they do not at the point of interviews state that they do not want to be recognised by the title they hold in cast for the interview then to all reading it’s a statement or interview from the heart of the trust
Fair play for @pico coming on and stating His case changes fuck all though really our manager may well read something from the chair Of the trust indicating that he has a case to answer In regards to racist accusations when he was younger and he doesn’t have anything to answer too or no one as if memeory serves me correct he was never found guilty of said offence
A trust is needed for every club in my opinion and should be a huge part of a club especially one like ours
But for some reason it’s divisive and needs to over come that
This just strengthens criticism and cynicism5 -
Weird to bring up the racism.1
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RodneyCharltonTrotta said:
Surely criticism from lifelong Charlton fans against an institution purporting to represent them can be valid without pulling out the strawman "do it better yourself then" argument and fair when such a statement is made by the chairman.razil said:The Trust represents fans views by surveying them and publishing them including opposing viewpoints. Amazing some still people still don’t understand that. If people can suggest a better way of doing that please do, and stand for the TB - but I make you wrong in saying it’s unrepresentative for that reason.
Some of you above clearly formed an opinion about the organisation and its merits way way back, good luck to you but no surprise when you find another excuse to bash it.
As I posted earlier we appear to do the complete opposite of siege mentality at Charlton. Eve of potentially toughest season in last 20 years, club in disarray and the supporters trust chairman is bringing up racism and race issues about our current and former manager in interviews with our next opponent.
Regardless of whether there is a place for that conversation it certainly isn't in that forum and context surely.</>
I think the linkage some are using is pretty weak and as such used as just another excuse to bash the Trust and tacking on to this error.
Nothing stopping you suggesting a better way for it to represent fans, on here for example. Joining the TB is simply another way of doing that.0 -
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I think the fact he prefaces his comments with the word personally makes it quite clear he wasn't speaking for anyone but himself.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:
The article cites him as CAST chairman which by default to readers implies he is speaking as a representative of the Charlton fan base.rikofold said:People making public statements are open to criticism and it's perfectly valid to form a view on the statement.
It isn't at all valid to slag Richard in the way some have done on here. He's a top bloke, one of the nicest fellas you'll ever meet and - even as Trust chair - is entitled to an opinion. I imagine there's been some editing that hasn't been kind, but even if not I don't see he's intending to speak for the Trust or its members.
What he says may be accurate. Bowyer may of course consider that he has nothing to apologise for - after all, that was his beef with Leeds - and perhaps Richard might have been more politic given the timing.
But I can't accept the insults aimed at him - way way off the mark.
Thankfully he is not but that is the impression and the likely reason he was invited for the interview as opposed to Joe Bloggs Charlton supporter.
Making an implicit comment about our manager in relation to racism whilst immediately juxtaposing it with a reference to a black manager alludes to a curious mindset about the issue.
It will only serve to further alienate supporters from an unrepresentative trust and offer credibility to the assumption it is exploited as a platform for ego- driven agendas for their version of what Charlton ought be as opposed to its implied remit of representing the best interests of the wider Charlton supporter base.
No need for vitriol or personal attacks I agree but the disparaging comments against Bowyer seem entirely out of context and unnecessary here.
Anyway, just making the point you ended with.0 -
Will Bowyer be at the trust AGM later this year?4
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Eh? Yes. He plead guilty. He refused to be served by a "fucking paki bastard", then him and his pals ran in, screamed a load more abuse, and knocked the guy out. It's a long time ago, and everyone deserves a second chance, but whether it hapenned is not in question.razil said:Was that accusation ever proven?
I'm pretty surprised by the "we all did things we're not proud of in our youth" line that a lot of people are running with here. Yeah we all make mistakes, but how many of us attacked someone because of their race. Or know anyone that did? I certainly don't, and it's in no way a rogue statement to suggest it is an issue, even all these years later.9 -
Maybe the one he plead guilty in and was told that he was incredibly fortunate to avoid a jail sentance?Cafc43v3r said:"Bowyer is a controversial figure and as far as I know, he has never apologised for the racism of his younger days"
For the sake of clarity @Pico can you confirm what racism you ment? I assume it isn't the court case where he was cleared of all charges?
EDIT: for clarity, I was referring to this one: https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/they-yelled-paki-bastard-and-threw-chairs-1-2417207 - the fact that some people could be confused as to which of the two times he was in court accused of a racially aggravated attack says something in itself...6 -
This one https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/they-yelled-paki-bastard-and-threw-chairs-1-2417207/amp you mean?
Maybe the one he plead guilty in and was told that he was incredibly fortunate to avoid a jail sentance?
Common knowledge among Charlton and Leeds fans of a certain age but a lot of people reading the article MAY assume it references a different case all together.
You know one that was in the national press for months......
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He admitted affray, as far as I can tell he was never charged with any racist crime.Rob62 said:
Maybe the one he plead guilty in and was told that he was incredibly fortunate to avoid a jail sentance?Cafc43v3r said:"Bowyer is a controversial figure and as far as I know, he has never apologised for the racism of his younger days"
For the sake of clarity @Pico can you confirm what racism you ment? I assume it isn't the court case where he was cleared of all charges?
EDIT: for clarity, I was referring to this one: https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/they-yelled-paki-bastard-and-threw-chairs-1-2417207
People need to be very careful what they accuse other people of in a public demain.1 -
Nope, but when you're shouting obscenities about "pakis" while you're abusing and throwing chairs at asian waiters then it's probably not libellous to suggest race was a factor in the whole thing. Hard to argue with that really.Cafc43v3r said:
He admitted affray, as far as I can tell he was never charged with any racist crime.Rob62 said:
Maybe the one he plead guilty in and was told that he was incredibly fortunate to avoid a jail sentance?Cafc43v3r said:"Bowyer is a controversial figure and as far as I know, he has never apologised for the racism of his younger days"
For the sake of clarity @Pico can you confirm what racism you ment? I assume it isn't the court case where he was cleared of all charges?
EDIT: for clarity, I was referring to this one: https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/they-yelled-paki-bastard-and-threw-chairs-1-2417207
I don't for a second believe that the Lee Bowyer of today is a racist. And it's hard to argue with the fact that it's an odd statement for the Trust chairman to make unprompted. But on a completely personal level, for me, all of the stuff in the past makes Bowyer an uneasy fit for a Charlton manager, but I get that most people don't feel the same.10 -
Roly didn't need to divide and rule, we did all the hard work for him.13
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No idea but he'll be at Bromley Addicks on 6 Septembershirty5 said:Will Bowyer be at the trust AGM later this year?
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How heavy are the chairs ?Henry Irving said:
No idea but he'll be at Bromley Addicks on 6 Septembershirty5 said:Will Bowyer be at the trust AGM later this year?
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When Bowyer and Robinson came last year I went out to greet them and asked if they'd found us ok.ShootersHillGuru said:
How heavy are the chairs ?Henry Irving said:
No idea but he'll be at Bromley Addicks on 6 Septembershirty5 said:Will Bowyer be at the trust AGM later this year?
"Yes" say Robinson "we stopped at McDonald's on the way.
I bit my lip : - )10 -
Fair play for coming on and giving your point of view Richard but the 2nd paragraph clearly confirms your position as chairman of the trust. No one reading that would view the comments as anything other than the trust’s stance.Pico said:I am Richard Wiseman and I have just read through the comments above.
The comments which are critical of my answer are fully justified. Even though I would have liked Lee Bowyer at some point to have said something which distanced himself from his earlier actions and attitudes, having re-read my answer I can see that it was unnecessarily judgemental (and a bit pompous) on my part to make that point in this interview. I fully accept that we all do stuff in our youth that we later regret and that this doesn't have to be demonstrated through words, but can be demonstrated through actions, which is what Lee has done.
Please let me stress that this was not a CAST opinion and any anger or disappointment about my comment should be directed at me not CAST.7 -
No need for a witch hunt against @Pico and easy to say stuff like this out of context. Christ if I got pulled up every time I said something out of place I would have been exiled years ago.
We need to be more unified as a fan base than ever at the moment.10 -
But with the greatest of respect. You are not Chair of the Supporters Trust.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:No need for a witch hunt against @Pico and easy to say stuff like this out of context. Christ if I got pulled up every time I said something out of place I would have been exiled years ago.
We need to be more unified as a fan base than ever at the moment.
But agreed no witch hunt required.
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razil said:
The Trust represents fans views by surveying them and publishing them including opposing viewpoints. Amazing some still people still don’t understand that. If people can suggest a better way of doing that please do, and stand for the TB - but I make you wrong in saying it’s unrepresentative for that reason.
Some of you above clearly formed an opinion about the organisation and its merits way way back, good luck to you but no surprise when you find another excuse to bash it.
I joined the Trust when it formed as wanted to still feel part of the fan base whilst disconnected with the club, I have fully supported its existence and it’s purpose and have never been critical. In fact this might even be my first ever post on CL!
I bristled at reading the article as didn’t agree with the views and don’t feel that someone in this position should be making them publicly.
However this comment has made me cancel my CAST / Membership subscription... The “we volunteer so you can’t criticise us” attitude is the straw that broke the camels back.
Can’t wait for the season to start so I can ignore all this bollocks
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Honest? I’m sure the interviewer meant was he suitable in a football sense and there was no need to say what he said.razil said:RW is a straight up fella, and was being honest in answering that question. We moan when people in ‘public life’ are evasive don’t we.
LB does have some marks on his copy book undeniably.
Perhaps timing/phrasing a bit unfortunate.
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Henry Irving said:
When Bowyer and Tommy Robinson came last year I went out to greet them and asked if they'd found us ok.ShootersHillGuru said:
How heavy are the chairs ?Henry Irving said:
No idea but he'll be at Bromley Addicks on 6 Septembershirty5 said:Will Bowyer be at the trust AGM later this year?
"Yes" say Robinson "we stopped at McDonald's on the way.
I bit my lip : - )0 -
Richard "not so" Wiseman0
