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How do the Tories need to change?
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@i_b_b_o_r_g you can stick any politician you like on there and it still makes sense!
When the dust has settled on Brexit, I look forward to Prime Minister Johnson dedicating the first of the new weekly hospital openings, with our £350m “dividend”!!0 -
And this one 3 days later has the Tories a point ahead:MuttleyCAFC said:
https://www.survation.com/boris-johnson-theresa-may-leadership-survation-for-daily-mail-september-8th/
Either way it shows the state of both parties. A decent Tory party should be able to piddle all over the current Labour Party and a decent Labour Party should be able to piddle all over the current Tory Party.
The fact neither can pull away from the other shows what a mess each is in. I’d rather neither were in charge, and I don’t see it getting any better anytime soon.4 -
If only there was an alternative.........1
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It does, but the link I posted was for a poll relating to an election rather than focused on support for May over Johnson. But the polls do show it is close - there is a 4 point margin for error I believe, which is good enough for me. I'd rather a progressive fresh new government that scrapes into power than same old same old. What people forget is that Labour doesn't need to win an election for Corbyn to become Prime Minister - after the last election May had to bribe the DUP to stop that happening. I think an alliance of left leaning parties could be refreshing. Not a formal one, but what left leaning party would want to help the Tories regain power?0
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Corbyn isn't so much left leaning as left fallen over.2
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I can't disagree, but he isn't as far left as he or others try to portray. The Labour manifesto tells you how far left a party it is. It is left leaning social democracy not communism! But he is more left than what we have experienced but part of that is how far to the right the middle point is.4
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Indeed, if your starting point is Bliars version of Tory lite Labour, lines get blurred.0
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The problem is, the assumption for decades has been that children will be richer than their parents. All parties reflected the belief that the system works. What many haven't faced is that things have changed. They look down the track and see traditional governments, but the reality is that the Alt-right are eating into the neo-Liberal majorities. The left has suffered from this and Corbyn is a bit of an oasis in that respect. There isn't a Corbyn in Italy, Germany or France for instance.
I was in Italy last week, and it is interesting how important people on the left there feel Corbyn is. From the perspective of their country not ours. The Alt-right are making massive inroads there! I think if Corbyn got in and was doing a good job, it would have a massive global effect which would be seen in Europe and even America. To me, the inevitable direction if not is to the Alt-right - which worries me.4 -
In years to come, Historians will argue over the importance of free movement in the rise of the right.2
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I'm sure it will. The problem is, and I have said this before, if you go to your Town centre and see the English shops closing and Polish shops replacing them, if you hear everybody speaking a foreign language, you can feel like a stranger in your own country. The fact that the country significantly benefits from EU migrants is irrelevant, especially if you are not feeling particularly better off with no wage rises in years! If you feel poorer, the easy target is immigrants. It always has been and always will be. The Alt-right will always try to feed off that!7
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I think it says mountains that both when you see brown and major talk about brexit etc they seem like accomplished statesmen with clear ideas and leadership skills. These were two prime ministers who were seen as ineffectual and just taking up space before the next general election would be lost.Rob7Lee said:
And this one 3 days later has the Tories a point ahead:MuttleyCAFC said:
https://www.survation.com/boris-johnson-theresa-may-leadership-survation-for-daily-mail-september-8th/
Either way it shows the state of both parties. A decent Tory party should be able to piddle all over the current Labour Party and a decent Labour Party should be able to piddle all over the current Tory Party.
The fact neither can pull away from the other shows what a mess each is in. I’d rather neither were in charge, and I don’t see it getting any better anytime soon.0 -
A lot probably due to timing, post Blair and post Thatcher? Although didn’t Major win one election? Either would be better than the current PM or leader of the opposition.kentaddick said:
I think it says mountains that both when you see brown and major talk about brexit etc they seem like accomplished statesmen with clear ideas and leadership skills. These were two prime ministers who were seen as ineffectual and just taking up space before the next general election would be lost.Rob7Lee said:
And this one 3 days later has the Tories a point ahead:MuttleyCAFC said:
https://www.survation.com/boris-johnson-theresa-may-leadership-survation-for-daily-mail-september-8th/
Either way it shows the state of both parties. A decent Tory party should be able to piddle all over the current Labour Party and a decent Labour Party should be able to piddle all over the current Tory Party.
The fact neither can pull away from the other shows what a mess each is in. I’d rather neither were in charge, and I don’t see it getting any better anytime soon.
As a country we deserve much better than the current shambles, but can't see where that change/improvement will come from. Depressing. You've now got Labour saying 1% of companies would go to employee's, although they would cap the dividend and the rest going to government. An example of Shell would be £325m to staff and £1.1bn to government!
The worlds going mad.0 -
Major managed to win an election, yes, but lost 40 seats in the 92 election. So corbynites might tell you that means labour really won the election.Rob7Lee said:
A lot probably due to timing, post Blair and post Thatcher? Although didn’t Major win one election? Either would be better than the current PM or leader of the opposition.kentaddick said:
I think it says mountains that both when you see brown and major talk about brexit etc they seem like accomplished statesmen with clear ideas and leadership skills. These were two prime ministers who were seen as ineffectual and just taking up space before the next general election would be lost.Rob7Lee said:
And this one 3 days later has the Tories a point ahead:MuttleyCAFC said:
https://www.survation.com/boris-johnson-theresa-may-leadership-survation-for-daily-mail-september-8th/
Either way it shows the state of both parties. A decent Tory party should be able to piddle all over the current Labour Party and a decent Labour Party should be able to piddle all over the current Tory Party.
The fact neither can pull away from the other shows what a mess each is in. I’d rather neither were in charge, and I don’t see it getting any better anytime soon.
As a country we deserve much better than the current shambles, but can't see where that change/improvement will come from. Depressing. You've now got Labour saying 1% of companies would go to employee's, although they would cap the dividend and the rest going to government. An example of Shell would be £325m to staff and £1.1bn to government!
The worlds going mad.2 -
Once again Corbyn is completely incapable of apologising and gets defensive and aggressive when pressed. Imagine him as PM on PMQs, but of course #RightSideOfHistory0 -
How anyone could ever vote for someone who says 'issues' like that is beyond me.kentaddick said:
Once again Corbyn is completely incapable of apologising and gets defensive and aggressive when pressed. Imagine him as PM on PMQs, but of course #RightSideOfHistory2 -
I'm done with them all now. Was very pleased when the tories took a battering at the last election because they are and always will be a scummy bunch, curating evil. Have voted Labour previously because of my ideals and upbringing, but the more I listen to Corbyn now, he doesn't really have a clue what he's talking about. It's just one big pile of ballplop on the British political landscape scene now, with varying degrees of overall mediocrity and crap, and a few decent individual politicians, drowned out by the mass incompetence at party level5
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wave more Palestinian flags at there annual conference0
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and make some witty song that city of liverpool fans can sing and upload0
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Another absolutely astoundingly stupid move.palarsehater said:wave more Palestinian flags at there annual conference
Yup we’re leaving Europe and the government is making a complete shambles of it, Russia is poisoning citizens on our soil, but let’s keep banging on about Palestine and deliberately doing things to intimidate Jewish members.
Fucking clowns. Both parties.5 -
finally i think i may have found a poster that has the same thoughts as me.kentaddick said:
Another absolutely astoundingly stupid move.palarsehater said:wave more Palestinian flags at there annual conference
Yup we’re leaving Europe and the government is making a complete shambles of it, Russia is poisoning citizens on our soil, but let’s keep banging on about Palestine and deliberately doing things to intimidate Jewish members.
Fucking clowns. Both parties.
i am not a tory boy far from it its the best of a bad bunch imo - corbyn and his ideas are just too far fetched the money does not add up etc, as the conservatives the whole love in with the dup i am not happy with.0 -
An interesting question I’ve seen on reddit, what’s Corbyn and labour’s policy on Taiwan? A labour government would recognise a Palestinian state, would they also recognise an independent Taiwan? It is already de facto independent however we have no international relations with them. China already have a far worse humanitarian record than Israel. Surely doing one and not the other is hypocritical and inconsistent?palarsehater said:
finally i think i may have found a poster that has the same thoughts as me.kentaddick said:
Another absolutely astoundingly stupid move.palarsehater said:wave more Palestinian flags at there annual conference
Yup we’re leaving Europe and the government is making a complete shambles of it, Russia is poisoning citizens on our soil, but let’s keep banging on about Palestine and deliberately doing things to intimidate Jewish members.
Fucking clowns. Both parties.
i am not a tory boy far from it its the best of a bad bunch imo - corbyn and his ideas are just too far fetched the money does not add up etc, as the conservatives the whole love in with the dup i am not happy with.1 -
I've never heard of a politician being inconsistent before....kentaddick said:
An interesting question I’ve seen on reddit, what’s Corbyn and labour’s policy on Taiwan? A labour government would recognise a Palestinian state, would they also recognise an independent Taiwan? It is already de facto independent however we have no international relations with them. China already have a far worse humanitarian record than Israel. Surely doing one and not the other is hypocritical and inconsistent?palarsehater said:
finally i think i may have found a poster that has the same thoughts as me.kentaddick said:
Another absolutely astoundingly stupid move.palarsehater said:wave more Palestinian flags at there annual conference
Yup we’re leaving Europe and the government is making a complete shambles of it, Russia is poisoning citizens on our soil, but let’s keep banging on about Palestine and deliberately doing things to intimidate Jewish members.
Fucking clowns. Both parties.
i am not a tory boy far from it its the best of a bad bunch imo - corbyn and his ideas are just too far fetched the money does not add up etc, as the conservatives the whole love in with the dup i am not happy with.0 -
But Corbyn is duffurunthoof_it_up_to_benty said:
I've never heard of a politician being inconsistent before....kentaddick said:
An interesting question I’ve seen on reddit, what’s Corbyn and labour’s policy on Taiwan? A labour government would recognise a Palestinian state, would they also recognise an independent Taiwan? It is already de facto independent however we have no international relations with them. China already have a far worse humanitarian record than Israel. Surely doing one and not the other is hypocritical and inconsistent?palarsehater said:
finally i think i may have found a poster that has the same thoughts as me.kentaddick said:
Another absolutely astoundingly stupid move.palarsehater said:wave more Palestinian flags at there annual conference
Yup we’re leaving Europe and the government is making a complete shambles of it, Russia is poisoning citizens on our soil, but let’s keep banging on about Palestine and deliberately doing things to intimidate Jewish members.
Fucking clowns. Both parties.
i am not a tory boy far from it its the best of a bad bunch imo - corbyn and his ideas are just too far fetched the money does not add up etc, as the conservatives the whole love in with the dup i am not happy with.0 -
But you are comparing apples with oranges. And that would be the same if you substituted May & Tory for Corbyn & Labour (and shuffled it around a bit).kentaddick said:
An interesting question I’ve seen on reddit, what’s Corbyn and labour’s policy on Taiwan? A labour government would recognise a Palestinian state, would they also recognise an independent Taiwan? It is already de facto independent however we have no international relations with them. China already have a far worse humanitarian record than Israel. Surely doing one and not the other is hypocritical and inconsistent?palarsehater said:
finally i think i may have found a poster that has the same thoughts as me.kentaddick said:
Another absolutely astoundingly stupid move.palarsehater said:wave more Palestinian flags at there annual conference
Yup we’re leaving Europe and the government is making a complete shambles of it, Russia is poisoning citizens on our soil, but let’s keep banging on about Palestine and deliberately doing things to intimidate Jewish members.
Fucking clowns. Both parties.
i am not a tory boy far from it its the best of a bad bunch imo - corbyn and his ideas are just too far fetched the money does not add up etc, as the conservatives the whole love in with the dup i am not happy with.0 -
I suppose If you like Corbyn you would have thought it was a good speech and if you don't you wouldn't. I thought it was better than his last conference speech and it felt like a call to arms. A leader's speech at a conference can never contain the detail, but should show the direction. It felt to me that Corbyn was drawing the battle lines pretty clearly and there was a call for unity. I suspect May will focus her speech on Corbyn and I think that will be a mistake.4
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I’m not a fan of Corbyn by any stretch but that was a very good performance by JC.5
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I think the issue I have with Corbyn now is that his principles will need to bend slightly were he to run a successful government. In some ways I admire him for sticking to his principles because I am left leaning and some elements of socialism appeal to me. BUT, and it’s why I wrote what I wrote above, On a lot of things I think is idealism won’t work on a practical level. I truly believe that his utopia is some sort of citizen smithesque, che guervara type dynasty which just won’t work with the way the world is today
At the other end of the spectrum, we’ve got the Tories who only want to represent old white people who are affluent and live in villages dotted around the English countryside. Both parties are too entrenched in their respective fantasies of what Britain looks like. The most frustrating thing is because the Tories are excelling at the moment at being their usual scummy self serving, cretinuous selves, if Corbyn did just bend and flex a bit, we could have a viable alternative. But we’ve got an absolute farce on both sides9
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